Need I say more?

Yeah, it’s all about the big bad Israelis and their bully cousins the United States.

Not to worry - old Condo is on to it

US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said the US policy on Hamas was unchanged, and the movement would have to renounce violence.

"You cannot have one foot in politics and the other in terror," she said.

I love the last quote:rolleyes:

Col

As they say "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"

As they say "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"

So a doctrine of complete genocide of Israel, is a worthy freedom call.
I see.

Have you become so anti American that you now applaud terrorist as well?

So a doctrine of complete genocide of Israel, is a worthy freedom call.
I see.

Have you become so anti American that you now applaud terrorist as well?


Oh dear another total over reaction.

1. I'm not anti-American i'm anti-gobsh!te. Just because i slate you doesn't mean i slate all Americans ask Kraj.

2. The point i was making is you and they don't hold the same world view. Your reaction to the news shows you have no understanding of how they think and feel about the organisations such as Hamas and hence my comment. I neither said i agreed or disagreed with the politics of the Palestinan people. It was a quote representing the nature of such discussions and could as easily applied to Colin's point.

3. Israel is not an innocent by-stander in the Middle East. There are no innocent by-standers and that is the problem. Political and civilian murders have been carried out by both sides and the feelings of hatred are so entrenched that it will take a mighty effort of will from both sides to resolve. Hate begets hate and once one side sheds blood in revenge for an act however barbaric the circle is closed.

4. You may not be aware of the parallel with these events and Northern Ireland. This would appear to be the first step in disbanding military action. The political realities will come to bear and Israel will end up discussing matters with the Palestinian government including Hamas and the rest as the British Government did with Sein Fein/IRA. You read it here first.

5. You really need to get out more if your still at the black and white stage of political thinking.

TS

So a doctrine of complete genocide of Israel, is a worthy freedom call.
I see.

Have you become so anti American that you now applaud terrorist as well?
Joe, you've really been grouchy the last couple days.

*Elaboration removed because Stoat beat me to the punch*

Joe, you've really been grouchy the last couple days.

*Elaboration removed because Stoat beat me to the punch*


I know, It will pass.

Oh dear another total over reaction.

1. I'm not anti-American i'm anti-gobsh!te. Just because i slate you doesn't mean i slate all Americans ask Kraj.
TS

I already know that, I know you were being flippant.

Oh dear another total over reaction.

2. The point i was making is you and they don't hold the same world view.

TS

They have a stated public goal of the total annihilation of Israel, and they have killed thousands in that quest.

Oh dear another total over reaction.

Your reaction to the news shows you have no understanding of how they think and feel about the organisations such as Hamas and hence my comment. I neither said i agreed or disagreed with the politics of the Palestinan people. It was a quote representing the nature of such discussions and could as easily applied to Colin's point.
TS

My reaction to the news is less than 200 words, in the last 5 years I have probably dedicated two or three hundred thousand words of thought to it. It is highly unlikely you have any clue as to how I much I know about them.

Oh dear another total over reaction.

3. Israel is not an innocent by-stander in the Middle East. There are no innocent by-standers and that is the problem. Political and civilian murders have been carried out by both sides and the feelings of hatred are so entrenched that it will take a mighty effort of will from both sides to resolve. Hate begets hate and once one side sheds blood in revenge for an act however barbaric the circle is closed.

TS

Of course. But an overwhelming majority of their people voted in a group with an agenda of Israel’s demise.



Oh dear another total over reaction.

4. You may not be aware of the parallel with these events and Northern Ireland. This would appear to be the first step in disbanding military action. The political realities will come to bear and Israel will end up discussing matters with the Palestinian government including Hamas and the rest as the British Government did with Sein Fein/IRA. You read it here first.
TS

Yes, but did the Irish have 10 times the birth rate of the British?

Oh dear another total over reaction.


5. You really need to get out more if your still at the black and white stage of political thinking.

TS

I think I argue both side of most issues quite well thank you.

Yes, but did the Irish have 10 times the birth rate of the British?
.

Yes, if they were Catholic.
I really can't see why your kicking up such a fuss, I thought the US was the champion of democracy, not if you don't like the election result eh!:rolleyes:

I really can't see why your kicking up such a fuss, I thought the US was the champion of democracy, not if you don't like the election result eh!:rolleyes:
Lol, good point! Why else do we have the CIA, eh?

.

They have a stated public goal of the total annihilation of Israel, and they have killed thousands in that quest.



If this is not annihilation what is?

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist, not only do the books not exists, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushu'a in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not one single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab Population." Moshe Dayan, Israeli military leader and politician in an address to the Technion, Haifa; as quoted in Ha'aretz (4 April 1969).


.
My reaction to the news is less than 200 words, in the last 5 years I have probably dedicated two or three hundred thousand words of thought to it. It is highly unlikely you have any clue as to how I much I know about them.


Please direct me.

.
Of course. But an overwhelming majority of their people voted in a group with an agenda of Israel’s demise.


Or they voted for a Government who would represent and protect them from Israel's aggression. Yet again it depends on if you have the guts to stand in the other man's shoes and see his point of view. You seem to be missing the long term view. If Israel and Palestine are ever to resolve their differences then those parties from both sides who advocate violence must be bought to the table. If radical groups like Hamas represent the people then they will be at the table by default. If Israel has the nerve - and i think it does - then this is the first step to a truce. This public posturing by Israel on the situation is an opening gambit, it appeases the fears of the extreme right within Israel - those Israelis who believe Palestine should be destroyed - and allows the real negotiations in the background to take place. This is exactly the tack that successive UK governments took with the IRA even during the worst parts of the conflict.



.
Yes, but did the Irish have 10 times the birth rate of the British?


The birth rate of Irish Catholics in Northern Ireland has always been an issue in Northern Ireland. It is an attributed reason for the unwillingness of the Protestant population to accept referenda on the re-unification of Ireland. Once the precident is set it would only be a matter of time before the vote would go against them. Studies of the 2002 census suggest however that the Catholics may never reach a majority. It does take into account a survey that suggests only 37% of Catholics would support re-unification. By 2021 however 47% of people of voting age in Northern Ireland will be Catholic - an easy caculation as all people in the 2002 census will be of voting age and the age of adult mortality is rising at a predictable rate. There is no clear answer to the question of how many Protestants would vote in a referendum so the answer is it would be very close.
What this has to do with the creation of two seperate sovereign states i'm an unclear on. Are you saying that a larger - and therefore majority - Palestinian population would not have their voice heard in a single Israeli state? Is this not the reason that a Palestinian state of sorts exists, to prevent such a situation?

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I think I argue both side of most issues quite well thank you.

Then do so because i have yet to see it.

Then do so because i have yet to see it.


Do you mean on this issue or others as well?

"You cannot have one foot in politics and the other in terror," she said

Perhaps the USA should review its arms sale policy


The use of U.S. weapons in the conflict between Israel and the Palestinian authority appears to be a clear violation of the U.S. Arms Export Control Act prohibiting U.S. weapons from being used for non-defensive purposes.

Israel is one of the United State’s largest arms importers. In the last decade, the United States has sold Israel $7.2 billion in weaponry and military equipment, $762 million through Direct Commercial Sales (DCS), more than $6.5 billion through the Foreign Military Financing (FMF) program.

In fact, Israel is so devoted to U.S. military hardware that it has the world's largest fleet of F-16s outside the U.S., currently possessing more than 200 jets.
Amnesty [International] estimates that in the six weeks from March 1, through mid-April, more than 600 Palestinians have been killed and over 3,000 wounded by Israeli soldiers.

What was it old Condo said about politics and terror?

Col

All I’m saying is that it looks like the Palestinians chose war.

All I’m saying is that it looks like the Palestinians chose war.
maybe, just maybe they'll get so sick of it a realise that sitting around as table will bring them huge rewards as the political wing of the IRA eventually realised.
Maybe the US should try and encourage that instead of just threatening sanctions

maybe, just maybe they'll get so sick of it a realise that sitting around as table will bring them huge rewards as the political wing of the IRA eventually realised.
Maybe the US should try and encourage that instead of just threatening sanctions

The United States Government is in a bad situation with this one.

As an official terrorist organization it is illegal for the US to have dealing with them.

The United States Government is in a bad situation with this one.

As an official terrorist organization it is illegal for the US to have dealing with them.
The truth is that unless they or somebody does the violence will never end

The truth is that unless they or somebody does the violence will never end

Yes but it may need to be up to a new negotiator.

Maybe China, maybe Britain.

Who knows because from where I stand I see destruction coming to the Middle East in Biblical proportions. And with the economics of oil like they are today; the sands in Canada are indeed looking pretty darn good.

Yes but it may need to be up to a new negotiator.

Maybe China, maybe Britain.

Who knows because from where I stand I see destruction coming to the Middle East in Biblical proportions. And with the economic of oil like they are today; the sands in Canada are indeed looking pretty darn good.
Nah j, the middle east, aside from Iraq is more stable now than it was during the sixties and seventies, and the sand option's too expensive at the minute

All I’m saying is that it looks like the Palestinians chose war.

Nobody "chooses" war.
And it's more that Israeli's and Palestinians started a row, ending up in a local terroristic guerrilla war led by both sides.
Both parties are involved in terroristic acts, so you shouldn't simply judge one side.
It's a far more complicated situation over there then you might think at first side ;)

Maybe it would help a bit if the USA threatened Israel to withdraw a considerable amount of the yearly contributions to a country that otherwise would have been bankrupt ages ago.
Well I guess that's politics, Israel's always been considered to be a satellite country to guarantee peace and stability in the Middle East.
You could almost call that ironic ;)

RV

Nobody "chooses" war.
And it's more that Israeli's and Palestinians started a row, ending up in a local terroristic guerrilla war led by both sides.
Both parties are involved in terroristic acts, so you shouldn't simply judge one side.
It's a far more complicated situation over there then you might think at first side ;)

Maybe it would help a bit if the USA threatened Israel to withdraw a considerable amount of the yearly contributions to a country that otherwise would have been bankrupt ages ago.
Well I guess that's politics, Israel's always been considered to be a satellite country to guarantee peace and stability in the Middle East.
You could almost call that ironic ;)

RV


Brits are always telling me I don’t see the big picture.

I did hear the new leaders of Palestine saying there will be no compromise with Israel. Now I guess I’m only hearing the black or white.

But how much in the grey area, is killing people?

I stick by my original statement; real war is coming to the Middle East.

War; no one wants, us, them...no one.

Looks like a little cival war has broken out now.

Maybe they'll forget about Israel.

Maybe this thread is too skary even for this section. I'll get an arguement stated on something else.

Maybe I am getting old but

Negotiation never resolved any "disagreement between faiths".

Your either with them or against. Just be honest and state which. Then you take the action that you believe is correct for you.

Myself I condemn all acts of terrorism by whoever. If you ain't the face to show you face then you have no integrity.

That's my view.

Len

Maybe this thread is too skary even for this section. I'll get an arguement stated on something else.

I suspect that people either have entrenched views or realise that the issue is too complex for this type of forum.

Both sides have fanatics who refuse to compromise, perhaps if I were a Palestinian driven off my land by Isreali expansion I too would take that view, however it is difficult to undo history, and if you do how far back do you turn it?

I heard on the news a short while ago that the US Eu UN and GB are discussing withdrawel of aid to Palestine unless certain conditions are met, pity they didn't take a firm stand against both sides.

Brian

Perhaps the USA should review its arms sale policy


Col


Clearly the US, like Britain has its own national security in mind when it sells arms to foreign countries.

The weapons preeminence of the NATO countries is so pronounced, other countries couldn’t catch up if they spent their entire GDP on developing weapons. So they were forced to purchase either NATO or Soviet weapons, Maybe a little Chinese but they were mostly irrelevant.

It allows them (non NATO) to possess modern weapons to guard against neighbors but was negligible against any threat from any of the NATO countries.

Take the “bomb proof” bunkers the British built for Iraq before the first Gulf War. Even before the war began the British knew how to destroy them. Good against Iran, but not so effective against British or American smart bombs.

So we use the money from the sales to develop better stuff, in a never ending cycle of American (and NATO) weapons superiority.

Even the F15s we sell to Israel are not equipped with the latest imaging and guidance electronics.

To answer your statement; it is hypocritical, but it works and we do have the big stick.

Ran across this on the subject.

And this one that seem appropiate

LOL...good one, FoFa.

:)

SHADOW