Lets Stop George Bush before he Destroys the Whole Planet Earth.

If people are allowed to talk freely about the destruction GWB is doing to the USA, Iraq and the rest of the world then that is a good start.

I know that people are scared to say anything against Bush and the Iraq war etc, in the real world, so this thread may give you confidence to say what you like in public after reading replies in this thread.

If free speech is not stifled by laws like the Patriot Act etc, then we should hope to see a quicker end to the evils of Bush and his administration and a return to a more healthier and peaceful world.

[QUOTE=Bart Fishermans]
I know that people are scared to say anything against Bush and the Iraq war etc, in the real world, so this thread may give you confidence to say what you like in public after reading replies in this thread.

QUOTE]

Blimey, where've you been? Check out posts by ColinEssex, Rich, KenHigg etc:confused: :eek:

[QUOTE=Bart Fishermans]
I know that people are scared to say anything against Bush and the Iraq war etc, in the real world, so this thread may give you confidence to say what you like in public after reading replies in this thread.

QUOTE]

Blimey, where've you been? Check out posts by ColinEssex, Rich, KenHigg etc:confused: :eek:


Think that Bart means that people should say what they really think and not bleat about the Bush.

No I did not spell wrong

L

[QUOTE=Bart Fishermans]
I know that people are scared to say anything against Bush and the Iraq war etc, in the real world, so this thread may give you confidence to say what you like in public after reading replies in this thread.

QUOTE]

Blimey, where've you been? Check out posts by ColinEssex, Rich, KenHigg etc:confused: :eek:


Think that Bart means that people should say what they really think and not bleat about the Bush.

No I did not spell wrong

L

[QUOTE=Bart Fishermans]
I know that people are scared to say anything against Bush and the Iraq war etc, in the real world, so this thread may give you confidence to say what you like in public after reading replies in this thread.

QUOTE]

Blimey, where've you been? Check out posts by ColinEssex, Rich, KenHigg etc:confused: :eek:


Think that Bart means that people should say what they really think and not bleat about the Bush.

No I did not spell wrong

L

OK, as much as I love to bash Bush...let's be realistic here. Short of pushing the big, red button George Bush is not going to single-handedly destroy the environment. Maybe his policies are bad and he's more interested in the health of corporations than the health of the environement. Fine. But seriously, any harm he does can be undone. Rather than blaming Bush for our woes, perhaps we should look at our own habits of excessive consumption and wastefulness. Not to mention why we expect the government to force businesses to be environmentally friendly when we won't bother to exert our own power as consumers.

I knew if I bit my tongue long enough, Kraj would come to the rescue...and oh so much more eloquent than I.

My only thought was that someone should try switching to decaf...:cool:

I knew if I bit my tongue long enough, Kraj would come to the rescue...
I'm glad I didn't disappoint you. :p

I'm glad I didn't disappoint you. :p

You rarely do ;)

OK, as much as I love to bash Bush...let's be realistic here. ...

Along those lines;

1. Freedom cannot exist without morality.

The phrase immoral free men makes no more sense than dry water. Unless we have sufficient character and moral fortitude, we will not be able to govern ourselves. When morality declines, the abuse of rights increases and more government is necessary. Just as criminals need jailers and domesticated animals need herdsmen, an immoral citizenry needs a police state. If we ever abandon our morality and adopt instead the law of the jungle, we will lose our freedom.

2. Ignorant and free can never be.

In order to be capable of self-government, we must not only be moral but informed. If we are not informed, we will tend to vote for the politician who promises the most. We will vote for more and bigger government until one day we have total government. An uninformed electorate, whether moral or immoral, will vote itself into slavery. Only a moral, well-informed electorate will vote for men of principle who will limit government to its proper role.

3. Our rights come from God.

When God created man, He gave him certain inalienable rights. Because rights existed prior to men joining together to form governments, the purpose of government is only to protect these rights. It cannot be to grant us rights that we already have. Nor can it be to legislate out of existence rights that are inalienable.

Our form of government is based on this fundamental truth. If we ever abandon it, we will lose our form of government.

4. The essence of freedom is the limitation of government.

Because men are not angels, some government is necessary to secure our God-given rights. Because government officials are men, the powers of government must be strictly limited and constantly held in check.

The U.S. Constitution limits the powers of the Federal Government.

Nonetheless, much that the Federal Government does today is unconstitutional. We have allowed this abuse of authority to occur because we have forgotten basic truths. We will preserve our freedom for future generations only if we recall the wisdom of our fathers and get back to basics.

A Government Of Laws - Or Of Men?

Because men created governments (and not vice versa), the rights of government are based on the God-given rights of the individual. An individual has the right to defend his life, liberty, and property; therefore, he also has the right to join with others and form a government to protect his rights. An individual does not have the right to violate the rights of another, and neither does government.

Government should be large enough to secure our God-given rights but not large enough to violate these rights. Anyone who understands this comprehends the proper role of government.

If there were no government whatsoever, our rights would not be secure. Individuals acting alone would be unable to protect their liberty against the criminal acts of unjust men. In the absence of organized government, anarchy would prevail. Ultimately, the criminals would take control and enslave their fellow citizens.

Our rights also would not be secure under a system of total government control. Such a government might grant its citizens privileges from time to time, but it could also take away those privileges on a whim. Whenever government has total power, individuals have none. Remember, the root of the word totalitarian is total!

Communism and Nazism are not at opposite ends of the political spectrum as the public has been led to believe. They are ideological twins! Both are totalitarian, and both are examples of 100 percent governmental control. Our rights can only be secure under limited government. Liberty is a way station between anarchy (no government) on one end of the political spectrum and totalitarianism (total government) on the other end.

Preserving liberty for ourselves and future generations is no easy task. As George Washington warned, "Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force! Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." Because our Founding Fathers realized that government, like fire, had to be contained, they gave us a government of laws and not of men. They created a republic and not a democracy.

A democracy is majority rule and is destructive of liberty because there is no law to prevent the majority from trampling on individual rights. Whatever the majority says goes! A lynch mob is an example of pure democracy in action. there is only one dissenting vote, and that is cast by the person at the end of the rope.

A republic is a government of law under a Constitution. The Constitution holds the government in check and prevents the majority (acting through their government) from violating the rights of the individual. Under this system of government a lynch mob is illegal. The suspected criminal cannot be denied his right to a fair trial even if a majority of the citizenry demands otherwise.

We will either be governed by laws or ruled by men. Because of man's nature, rule by men has always ended in tyranny. Only under a government of laws will our God-given rights be secure.

Have You Been Deceived?

Question: When the Founding Fathers established our government, they gave us: (a) a democracy, or (b) a republic?


The question is basic, and the correct answer should be known to very school child. Nevertheless, if you have been led to believe that our country is a democracy, you have been deceived.

Not only did our Founding Fathers establish a republic, they greatly feared democracy. James Madison, known as the father of the U.S. Constitution, wrong in "Essay #10" of The Federalist Papers: "...democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths."

Although such an attitude will surprise most Americans, it is accurate.

The United States Constitution does not contain the word democracy. It does "guarantee to every State in this Union a republican form of government...." Also, when we recite the Pledge of Allegiance to the flag, we say, "to the Republic for which it stands," and not "to the Democracy."

The difference between a republic and a democracy was once widely understood in America. The U.S. War Department (superseded by the Department of Defense) taught that difference in a training manual (No. 2000-25) published on November 30, 1928. This official U.S. Government document, used at the time for the training of American military personnel, said of democracy:

"A government of the masses. Authority derived through mass meeting of any other form of direct expression. Results in mobocracy. Attitude toward property is communistic - negating property rights. Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate, whether is be based upon deliberation or governed by passion, prejudice, and impulse, without restraint or regard to consequences. Results in demogogism, license, agitation, discontent, anarchy."

It went on to state:

"Our Constitutional fathers, familiar with the strength and weakness of both autocracy and democracy, with fixed principles definitely in mind, defined a representative republican form of government. They made a very marked distinction between a republic and a democracy - - - and said repeatedly and emphatically that they had founded a republic.'"

If you have been misled as to the type of government we inherited, you should ask why.

Is It Constitutional?

The United States of America is a Constitutional Republic consisting of the Federal Government and the State Governments. It is not a "Democracy." The Federal government operates under the specific powers delegated to it by the United States Constitution, while each of the state governments operates under a state constitution.

The U.S. Congress is not authorized to make any law it chooses; it is bound by this Constitutional mandate. For instance, the First Amendment states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; of abridging the freedom of speech or of the press; or the right of the people peaceable to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

And the Tenth Amendment states, "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

The Constitution authorizes the Federal Government to protect our God-given rights and to provide for the common defense. It does not authorize the Federal government to provide foreign aid handouts, unemployment benefits, subsidized housing units, food stamps, agricultural price supports, or other share-the-wealth schemes.

Tragically, much of the legislation that Congress passes is unconstitutional. This abuse of authority has occurred because we have lost sight of basic principles.

Your Congressman has taken an oath to uphold the Constitution. Whenever a new bill comes up for a vote, he should ask himself: Is It Constitutional? If it is unconstitutional, he should vote against it. If he does not vote against unconstitutional legislation, you should ask him why.

WASHINGTON DC (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0MKY/is_9_27/ai_108881880) -May 18, 2003 - According to freelance journalist Wayne Madsden, "George W Bush's blood lust, his repeated commitment to Christian beliefs and his constant references to 'evil doers,' in the eyes of many devout Catholic leaders, bear all the hallmarks of the one warned about in the Book of Revelations--the anti-Christ."

Madsen, a Washington-based writer and columnist, who often writes for Counterpunch, says that people close to the pope claim that amid these concerns, the pontiff wishes he was younger and in better health to confront the possibility that Bush may represent the person prophesized in Revelations. John Paul II has always believed the world was on the precipice of the final confrontation between Good and Evil as foretold in the New Testament.

WASHINGTON DC (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0MKY/is_9_27/ai_108881880) -May 18, 2003 - According to freelance journalist Wayne Madsden, "George W Bush's blood lust, his repeated commitment to Christian beliefs and his constant references to 'evil doers,' in the eyes of many devout Catholic leaders, bear all the hallmarks of the one warned about in the Book of Revelations--the anti-Christ."



But Bush says he's acting in the name of God :rolleyes:
mind you the Catholic regime supported the Nazis, didn't they, still God'll sort it all out on judgement day:rolleyes:

WASHINGTON DC (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0MKY/is_9_27/ai_108881880) -May 18, 2003 - According to freelance journalist Wayne Madsden, "George W Bush's blood lust, his repeated commitment to Christian beliefs and his constant references to 'evil doers,' in the eyes of many devout Catholic leaders, bear all the hallmarks of the one warned about in the Book of Revelations--the anti-Christ."



But Bush says he's acting in the name of God :rolleyes:
mind you the Catholic regime supported the Nazis, didn't they, still God'll sort it all out on judgement day:rolleyes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

That's the best response to a post I've seen in a long time - :)

Enlightening and timely :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
he shoots...he scores! :eek:

WASHINGTON DC (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0MKY/is_9_27/ai_108881880) -May 18, 2003 - According to freelance journalist Wayne Madsden, "George W Bush's blood lust, his repeated commitment to Christian beliefs and his constant references to 'evil doers,' in the eyes of many devout Catholic leaders, bear all the hallmarks of the one warned about in the Book of Revelations--the anti-Christ."

Madsen, a Washington-based writer and columnist, who often writes for Counterpunch, says that people close to the pope claim that amid these concerns, the pontiff wishes he was younger and in better health to confront the possibility that Bush may represent the person prophesized in Revelations. John Paul II has always believed the world was on the precipice of the final confrontation between Good and Evil as foretold in the New Testament.

Hey Bart,

It may help if you did a little homework before you posted. The anit-christ is suppose to be a European born Jew. Bush falls a little short of that. Quoting someone who is sympathic to your cause does not make it a fact. Only facts make them a fact, which is why quoting the media is always suspect cause how can we ever know it's a fact. We weren't there and we didn't see or hear it. We just have to go by what some individual is telling us is a fact.

Shane

Hey Bart,

It may help if you did a little homework before you posted. The anit-christ is suppose to be a European born Jew. Bush falls a little short of that. Quoting someone who is sympathic to your cause does not make it a fact. Only facts make them a fact, which is why quoting the media is always suspect cause how can we ever know it's a fact. We weren't there and we didn't see or hear it. We just have to go by what some individual is telling us is a fact.

Shane

The 'people close to the pope' source thing kind of did the argument more harm than good - :rolleyes:

Ken, the essay you posted is full of great information and is very well written. I wish it didn't toss in unsupported conclusions with an imensely Republican bias, but I'd say it's worth a read for the average folk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
Bravo, sir!

John Paul II has always believed the world was on the precipice of the final confrontation between Good and Evil as foretold in the New Testament.
Is there anyone else who finds this statement disturbing?

Is there anyone else who finds this statement disturbing?
well...in general, I find that I am a little frightened by little old men wearing big white hats, making repetitive hand gestures :eek:

but I'd say it's worth a read for the average folk.



That would be American folk because as they say, little things please little minds :rolleyes:

The rest of us find it nothing more than right wing propoganda for the masses

Only facts make them a fact, which is why quoting the media is always suspect cause how can we ever know it's a fact. We weren't there and we didn't see or hear it. We just have to go by what some individual is telling us is a fact.

Shane

This is from the nation that swallowed Bush, Chenny, Humpty Dumpty etc. lies hook line and sinker, ever heard the tale of the kettle and black pot?

The rest of us find it nothing more than right wing propoganda for the masses
Then you're conveniently ignoring the good information in there, such as the difference between a Republic and a Democracy and the fact that the United States is the former even though we love to call it the latter, just because the author does happen to toss in some propaganda-ish statements.

Then you're conveniently ignoring the good information in there, such as the difference between a Republic and a Democracy and the fact that the United States is the former even though we love to call it the latter, just because the author does happen to toss in some propaganda-ish statements.

.... Of course you realize you're once again getting sucked into another mindless dialog with mr perfect ...;)

.... Of course you realize you're once again getting sucked into another mindless dialog with mr perfect ...;)

You're not discussing anything with Kraj :confused: :rolleyes:

Then you're conveniently ignoring the good information in there, such as the difference between a Republic and a Democracy and the fact that the United States is the former even though we love to call it the latter, just because the author does happen to toss in some propaganda-ish statements.

I lost interest after this rubbish


3. Our rights come from God.

When God created man, He gave him certain inalienable rights.

PROVE IT! :rolleyes:
and what happened to those rights in Gitmo

Zzzzzz....

This is from the nation that swallowed Bush, Chenny, Humpty Dumpty etc. lies hook line and sinker, ever heard the tale of the kettle and black pot?

Rich,

My reference was the media across the board. Both sides. I personally don't trust any of the media because I believe they will always slant it their way. Whether they are on the left or the right and a lot of the time quote the same sources for the facts. People see what they want to see and will find facts to back up what they believe. Seldom do you run across a truly open minded person. I think Kraj has proven to be an example of an open minded person, but folks like that a few and far between.

Shane

I lost interest after this rubbish
If you had bothered to keep reading, you would have found that the point the author was making with his "rubbish" statement actually had nothing to do with God. All he was saying is that basic human rights like life and liberty are inherent and not bestowed by the government. That's all.

Dismissing a piece of writing because a certain statement bothers you without understanding it is a bad habit. Is Huck Finn racist garbage because it uses the 'n' word?

Bringing up Gitmo is just plain retarded.

Seldom do you run across a truly open minded person. I think Kraj has proven to be an example of an open minded person, but folks like that a few a far between.

Shane
Awwww.... *warm fuzzies*

Seriously, thank you for the wonderful compliment. :)

Seriously, thank you for the wonderful compliment. :)


Your welcome, but it is what I really think. I try to be open minded but when it's all said and done, I usually don't think I do a very good job.:mad: , but it's a project in my life that I'm working on.

If you had bothered to keep reading, you would have found that the point the author was making with his "rubbish" statement actually had nothing to do with God.
"God gave us our freedom" :rolleyes:



Bringing up Gitmo is just plain retarded.

Prima facie evidence that the diatribe was written for an American audience and a middle class white one at that

Only facts make them a fact, which is why quoting the media is always suspect cause how can we ever know it's a fact. We weren't there and we didn't see or hear it. We just have to go by what some individual is telling us is a fact.

Shane

This is from the nation that swallowed Bush, Chenny, Humpty Dumpty etc. lies hook line and sinker, ever heard the tale of the kettle and black pot?

Rich,

This wasn't from any nation, this was from Shaneman. Stop making idiotic generalities.

Lisa

Rich,

This wasn't from any nation, this was from Shaneman. Stop making idiotic generalities.

Lisa
Oh I am sorry, I thought he lived in America, oh and please explain why Bush got home a second time with a majority?

Rich,

This wasn't from any nation, this was from Shaneman. Stop making idiotic generalities.

Lisa

What do you expect from an idiot :D

Prima facie evidence that the diatribe was written for an American audience and a middle class white one at that

You sure spew a lot of babble when Kraj slam dunks you...;) :D

You sure spew a lot of babble when Kraj slam dunks you...;) :D
Eh? just where do you think he's done that? :rolleyes:

What do you expect from an idiot :D
WW 111 :rolleyes:

Rich,

This wasn't from any nation, this was from Shaneman. Stop making idiotic generalities.

Lisa
I see, so by the same logic Bush doesn't represent America? :rolleyes:

Eh? just where do you think he's done that? :rolleyes:

Pretty much anytime you open your mouth :D

Pretty much anytime you open your mouth :D

I've yet to see any evidence to support that supposition:rolleyes:

Well you see Richie old boy, it's like this...

Most all of your 'stuff' eventually morphs into a I hate America thingie. I don't think you always intend it to go there when you start, but you just don't know when to shut up and it's kind of lame...

All to often when your argument appears to be faltering, you pick some brain-dead tangent to veer off on and if you see the hate stuff on the horizon, then off you go...

If you feel my assessment erroneous, I challenge you to leave the 'hate you' stuff at home for a week and see if you can sustain any kind of debate with Kraj...

Well you see Richie old boy, it's like this...

Most all of your 'stuff' eventually morphs into a I hate America thingie. I don't think you always intend it to go there when you start, but you just don't know when to shut up and it's kind of lame...

All to often when your argument appears to be faltering, you pick some brain-dead tangent to veer off on and if you see the hate stuff on the horizon, then off you go...

If you feel my assessment erroneous, I challenge you to leave the 'hate you' stuff at home for a week and see if you can sustain any kind of debate with Kraj...

I've given enough examples that the "land of the free" is a myth, do you need more?
Oh and most of your stuff is simply "America the great", I know it's a shock for you but you're not, remind me why bringing Gitmo into a thread on an American "all men are free" thread is a tangent?
Oh and by the way I don't hate anybody, I can't, I'm not American to start with:rolleyes:

I've given enough examples that the "land of the free" is a myth, do you need more?
Oh and most of your stuff is simply "America the great", I know it's a shock for you but you're not, remind me why bringing Gitmo into a thread on an American "all men are free" thread is a tangent?
Oh and by the way I don't hate anybody, I can't, I'm not American to start with:rolleyes:

I thought were were going to be affraid to take the challenge :D

Rich - Debate without hate - No

Winner = Kraj

I've given enough examples that the "land of the free" is a myth, do you need more?
argumentum ad naseum
The incorrect belief that an assertion is more likely to be true the more often it is heard. An "argumentum ad naseum" is one that employs constant repitition in asserting a concept.
Oh and most of your stuff is simply "America the great", I know it's a shock for you but you're not, remind me why bringing Gitmo into a thread on an American "all men are free" thread is a tangent?
Argumentum ad hominem
An argument that attempts to disprove the truth of what is asserted by attacking the speaker rather than the speaker's argument. Another way of putting it: fallacy where you attack someone's character instead of dealing with salient issues. There are two basic types of ad hominem arguments: 1) abusive and 2) circumstantial.
abusive: the person is attacked over what he said
example:
Arguing with Hitler over whether the sun is shining, just because it's Hitler.
circumstantial: attacking the circumstances the person is in
example:
Don't listen to the congressman; he's pro-union.
Oh and by the way I don't hate anybody, I can't, I'm not American to start with:rolleyes:
Converse accident
Hasty generalization. An argument in which a proposition is used as a premise without attention given to some obvious condition that would affect the proposition's application. It is a fallacy that takes evidence from several, possibly unrepresentative, cases to a general rule; generalizing from few to many.
That was fun.

That was fun.

Yes it was - Thanks :D :D

That was fun.
Ask the Negros of America if they agree with you :rolleyes:

That was fun.
Ask the Negros of America if they agree with you :rolleyes:

That was fun.
Ask the Negros of America if they agree with you :rolleyes:

Ask the Negros of America if they agree with you :rolleyes:
I wait with baited breath for the sure-fire hilarity that will ensue when you explain what on Earth that is supposed to mean.

I wait with baited breath for the sure-fire hilarity that will ensue when you explain what on Earth that is supposed to mean.
See if you can figure it out for yourself, or do you dismiss them as a valid argument against the term "America is the land of the free and all men are equal"?

The suspected criminal cannot be denied his right to a fair trial even if a majority of the citizenry demands otherwise.


What a pity that doesn't extend to America's attitude to the rest of the world, oops, silly me, that's not a valid argument, well not in an American's eyes that is:rolleyes:

So at what point did you decide that a discussion about whether an essay has value despite containing a few heaviliy biased statements is really about whether "America is the land of the free and all men are equal"?

So at what point did you decide that a discussion about whether an essay has value despite containing a few heaviliy biased statements is really about whether "America is the land of the free and all men are equal"?
Because like I said, it was written soley for an American audience, that puts it up for challenge.
The so called freedoms don't exist for all and never have, some are more equal than others, allways have been and always will

Because like I said, it was written soley for an American audience, that puts it up for challenge.
The so called freedoms don't exist for all and never have, some are more equal than others, allways have been and always will

Ignorence is bliss ay Richy Boy?

No wonder we were successful in running you off our land.

Because like I said, it was written soley for an American audience, that puts it up for challenge.
The so called freedoms don't exist for all and never have, some are more equal than others, allways have been and always will

Don't get me wrong Rich, I'm not by no means saying all your assertions are invalid. In fact, I would probably agree with most of them if you could keep them within the content of a topic...

No wonder we were successful in running you off our land.
We left, after all who the hell wants to stay in a land of smugglers where so called freedom is supposedly enshrined on a scrap of meaningless paper for display to masses whilst in reality protecting capitalism:rolleyes:
Remind me again, who's ignorant ? :rolleyes:

Don't get me wrong Rich, I'm not by no means saying all your assertions are invalid. In fact, I would probably agree with most of them if you could keep them within the content of a topic...
I did Kenny, we were discussing freedom and the United States, in case you're unsure, Gitmo is run by the United States, you know that's where men with funny looking skin are locked up without trial, without access to the outside world, without being convicted of anything, all men are equal?
Now you tell me were you think I strayed off topic ?:confused:

We left, after all who the hell wants to stay in a land of smugglers where so called freedom is supposedly enshrined on a scrap of meaningless paper for display to masses whilst in reality protecting capitalism:rolleyes:
Remind me again, who's ignorant ? :rolleyes:

I think the display is kind of a symbolic thing (?)

We done got under your skin big time today haven't we...:(

Sorry... I'll try to be a bit more nice :o

I think the display is kind of a symbolic thing (?)

We done got under your skin big time today haven't we...:(

Sorry... I'll try to be a bit more nice :o
You know one of my best friends at college was an American, one of the nicest people I've ever met. Never preached, never wanted to go and fight in some foreign unjust war, never got into an argument, just wanted to enjoy his life and have a good time. I often wonder what happened to Jess and America :confused:

I did Kenny, we were discussing freedom and the United States, in case you're unsure, Gitmo is run by the United States, you know that's where men with funny looking skin are locked up without trial, without access to the outside world, without being convicted of anything, all men are equal?
Now you tell me were you think I strayed off topic ?:confused:

I'm quite aware of Gitmo, thanks. It is a bad situation for all involved not just the one's that are locked up. On the upside, I'm guessing outside what I would have to guess is the over-sensationalized bad treatment some of them get, it's probably a better idea to keep suspected war criminals in a location that isn't so geographically risky...

Of course I realize your desire may be to call into question the root cause of the situation and maybe not Gitmo in particular. ? In which case why don't we just cut to the chase ...

You know one of my best friends at college was an American, one of the nicest people I've ever met. Never preached, never wanted to go and fight in some foreign unjust war, never got into an argument, just wanted to enjoy his life and have a good time. I often wonder what happened to Jess and America :confused:

Would you mind giving some of us the benifit of the doubt that most of us over here in this backward country might be nice people as well... Of course I mean the girls, etc... I've pretty much blown it... ;)

Of course I realize your desire may be to call into question the root cause of the situation and maybe not Gitmo in particular. ? In which case why don't we just cut to the chase ...
Well the root cause is right wing extremism and paranoia

Would you mind giving some of us the benifit of the doubt that most of us over here in this backward country might be nice people as well... Of course I mean the girls, etc... I've pretty much blown it... ;)
Some of the girls ;)

Well the root cause is right wing extremism and paranoia

I think the root cause is a basically good man that became President and made some devastating errors in his efforts to do good...

I think the root cause is a basically good man that became President and made some devastating errors in his efforts to do good...
Good man, come on, he was a liar and a cheat long before he got into office

Before I would make a dogmatic statement like that, I would really like to get to know the man a little better and not base my judgement on what the news people reported... I would hope you wouldn't want someone to write you off based on what a third party has said about you...

Then again, you may be right, but I'll have to pass on making that kind of judgement...

Now you tell me were you think I strayed off topic ?:confused:
Gladly.

The essay was a discussion of the nature of freedom, the structure of the United States government, and how the two interact. Other than some silly references to Republican platform positions (which I suspect someone other than the original author tossed in to make it look like the very nature of freedom supports their own political ideology), the essay had nothing to do with specific issues or events. Nor did it draw any conclusions about to what degree the United States actualizes the ideals of freedom described, or make any claims about the degree of freedom enjoyed by those affected by the American government.

Therefore, bringing up a point that illustrates where the United States is hyprocritcal about their human rights practices is off topic. It has nothing to do, whatsoever, with any of the author's assertions about the nature of freedom or the structure of the United States government.

I hope that clears it up for you. ;)

Anyone ever heard of Extemporaneous Speaking category in Forensics? It's a form of competitive debate in high school and college where the competitor is given a political yes/no question to answer, has thirty minutes to come up with a seven-minute memorized answer (in five-paragraph format, with at least 9 sources, complete with a special walk to be done while given the speech), and then gives this speech to a judge and an audience.

I started doing this at my high school in 8th grade. By the time tenth grade rolled around I had:
1) learned to lie off the cuff, believably
2) lost all faith in the media as being anything other than pure entertainment
3) lost all faith in my fellow man
4) lost all faith in government
5) lost almost all faith in organized religion
6) decided to never vote and stay away from politics, other than as entertainment

The point is: trying to have serious conversations about politics and thinking on it deeply will wear on your soul until you are like Rich or me--you dig through the shit for the kernal of truth, and the shit rubs off.

The point is: trying to have serious conversations about politics and thinking on it deeply will wear on your soul until you are like Rich or me--you dig through the shit for the kernal of truth, and the shit rubs off.
That's why man invented soap and latex gloves. :D

Rich, your attitude towards America and Americans is obviously taken from ignorance. You fail to understand us.

Asking the Negroes whether it was fun? They didn't participate in your diatribe (so far as I know). But yes, ask them. Ask Leonard Pitt. Ask Colin Powell. Ask Condoleeza Rice. For starters, at least. Ask a lot of highly paid people who happen also to be Negroes.

Don't ask folks of ANY color about ANYTHING until you know your audience better. Black, red, brown, white, yellow (purple, blue, and green if you can find them...) ALL have the same issues: In America, we have the land of opportunity and too many people who are DEAF AS A POST when it comes to hearing when opportunity knocks. If you ask blacks of the 21st century whether something was fun, take the time to see if they have the "you owe me something" or the "I owe this to myself" attitude. THEN (and ONLY then) can you speak of the down-trodden of any color.

America is the land where you have the right to try to make good things happen for yourself. FOR YOURSELF. Don't look to government to do it. Look within YOURSELF. If I read you correctly, your problem is that you don't understand America. It is the land where you have the freedom to try, but there is no guarantee that you will succeed OR FAIL in any enterprise. You have the shot at trying again, though. Just don't be STUPID when you try.

The essay towards which you directed your scorn was perhaps somewhat biased but its factual references (Federalist Papers, for example) were quite accurate. The USA might not be so great, true - but we have an awesome number of immigration applications and tons of illegal immigrants to go with the others. We must be really bad, so many people want to be here.

You know why certain other countries want to destroy us? Because we are the one thing they cannot tolerate - a country that ISN'T blindly bound to religion. (Despite GWB and the "moral majority".) The clerics who rule certain other countries that shall remain nameless here simply cannot abide by the thought that education will set their people free - and at the same time will collapse the secular power that the clerics have amassed. All you have to know comes from an Old Testament reference: Determine whose ox would be gored. Of COURSE they hate us. We are like poison to them. But not to their people - only to those in power who don't give a hoot about their people beyond the next fleecing they can manage.

But I digress. Rich, you can argue against the USA all you wish. You will probably argue against what I have said, too. And you know what? You have the right to do so. But don't try it in certain other countries that are so much "better" than us. So much better that you might disappear and never be heard from again. Even I wouldn't wish that on you, despite your negative attitude.

But I digress. Rich, you can argue against the USA all you wish. You will probably argue against what I have said, too.


You know what, I don't think I have noticed Rich argueing, making statements , yes, but arguing!

brian

Excellent post, Doc Man.

Rich, your attitude towards America and Americans is obviously taken from ignorance. You fail to understand us.



Well such a strange post so late in the day but I obviously have to correct one or two myths to say the least.


Asking the Negroes whether it was fun? They didn't participate in your diatribe (so far as I know). But yes, ask them. Ask Leonard Pitt. Ask Colin Powell. Ask Condoleeza Rice. For starters, at least. Ask a lot of highly paid people who happen also to be Negroes.


Well I'm not sure where that came from but simply because a few black high flyers have at last made it doesn't give you the right to take the moral high ground regarding the treatment of Negroes, equality and freedom etc.



In America, we have the land of opportunity

For the vast majority that means if your skin is white


but we have an awesome number of immigration applications and tons of illegal immigrants to go with the others.

I think you'll find that refers to mainly Hispanics



You know why certain other countries want to destroy us?

Yes I do and it has nothing to do with religion or freedom, these are just the excuses fed to you by your leaders to keep your capitalist roots intact.
The very statement that many other countries want to destroy you is in itself mainly nonsense,mainly attributable to paranoia and partly because of your actions on the world stage over the last 50yrs.
It's far too complex a subject to even try and dissect here but basically when you stop treating the world as if you own it then others will look more kindly at you.

Because we are the one thing they cannot tolerate - a country that ISN'T blindly bound to religion.

That statement also applies to most of Europe and has done for far longer, since for the main part Europe isn't subjected to the same levels of hatred as the US your statement cannot be true


Of COURSE they hate us. We are like poison to them.
I'm sure I've pointed this out before but the US is not the great bastion of freedom and democracy that you seem to think, therefore again your reasoning is deeply flawed.

But don't try it in certain other countries that are so much "better" than us.


I'm a little confused here, which countries do you think I've suggested were better?


Even I wouldn't wish that on you, despite your negative attitude.
Which negative attitude are you referring to, the fact that the US claims to be the leader of the free world and then totally ignores the free world's wishes and that I frequently challenge this myth,I didn't think you were that naive.

Excellent post, Doc Man.
Ever heard the term "blinded by patriotism"?

Ever heard the term "blinded by patriotism"?

Yes, but since I have personal knowledge that many of your un-informed opinions of this country are false (some do have merit), I'd say it doesn't apply here.

I'd ask you, ever heard the term "blinded by ignorance"?

Ever heard the term "blinded by patriotism"?

I also thought it was excellent. Doc, you have my permission to speak on my behalf as an American anytime you please. :) :)

I'd ask you, ever heard the term "blinded by ignorance"?

Yes of course, it applies to many of those posting here

Yes of course, it applies to many of those posting here

And so typical that you would run with the part of my response that could be responded to with a nebulous, sarcastic comment and ignore the part that may have led to a factual discussion. God forbid any facts get in the way of your anti-Americanism.

And so typical that you would run with the part of my response that could be responded to with a nebulous, sarcastic comment and ignore the part that may have led to a factual discussion. God forbid any facts get in the way of your anti-Americanism.

There you go, the first thing Americans do when anybody dares to criticise them is to brand them anti American. Hell it's even worse if they're American, they're branded unpatriotic and thrown to the wolves.
What was it that you had difficulty with when I said "blinded by patriotism"?

Anyone who knows me knows I am not shy about criticizing my country or its government. One of my favorite political quotes is by Thomas Jefferson:

"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive"

I would certainly agree with you that it's wrong to call anyone who disagrees with the current administration unpatriotic. Frankly, I think it's unpatriotic to NOT criticize government.

My calling you anti-American had less to do with any specific comment today and more from observing hundreds of your posts that criticize the country or her people, more often than not based on incorrect information. The general feel I've gotten is that you don't like us, particularly since you seem to ignore information that doesn't fit your preconceived notions, as you have today.

My calling you anti-American had less to do with any specific comment today and more from observing hundreds of your posts that criticize the country or her people, more often than not based on incorrect information. .

Which incorrect information are you referring to, that which doesn't fit in with a few of your own personal experiences?

Oh and I frequently post facts from research carried out by others, including Americans :eek:
even though it brings me torrents of personal abuse

The good thing about this place is that you can tune in and hear a continuance of the same old argument.

The good thing about this place is that you can tune in and hear a continuance of the same old argument.
Then the answer's simple, just change your ways

The good thing about this place is that you can tune in and hear a continuance of the same old argument.

True; my bad.

Rich, I don't see myself as being the first one you'll actually listen to, so I'll save us both the trouble. I yield, as you must surely know more about the issues "on the ground" here than I do. After all, I just live here and deal with people of every color every day. What would I know?

What would I know?
That would depend on who taught you your history

Rich, I don't see myself as being the first one you'll actually listen to,

I listen to a great many people, I think you meant to say "agree with", but then it really depends on your argument, you haven't actually posted any facts to dispute my statements

Well, I posted as many racial/immigration facts as you did in your response to Doc Man (those are the topics I am more familiar with). All you posted were your opinions. Where were your facts?

All I did was compliment him on his post, which drew an implication by you of my being blind. Why snipe at me simply for complimenting someone else?

As to what I know depending on who taught me history, I said I had personal experience, so my history teachers would seem to be irrelevant. I base my opinions on personal experience when available.

And lastly, as to whether I meant listen to or agree with, I said what I meant. I don't expect to be agreed with all the time, but you don't listen. You pick out what you want to quibble with and ignore the rest.

Where were your facts?
.
Both Colin and I have posted the fact that in terms of percentage your country has the highest number of poor people in the world, the majority of them are Black.
We have supplied the figures to support this on many occasions.


All I did was compliment him on his post, which drew an implication by you of my being blind. Why snipe at me simply for complimenting someone else?

Because his post was factually inaccurate and you simply jumped in blindly to congratulate what was simply a patriotic riposte





And lastly, as to whether I meant listen to or agree with, I said what I meant. I don't expect to be agreed with all the time, but you don't listen. You pick out what you want to quibble with and ignore the rest

Oh but I do listen, I do know that America has made some strides regarding it's attitude towards the Negroes, however they lag far behind the free world.
Simply posting a few examples of one or two Blacks in higher education does not make you the land of liberty and equality, you've a long long way to go yet and in any case it's only in recent years that a few Blacks have had any access to education, full stop.

Asking the Negroes whether it was fun? They didn't participate in your diatribe (so far as I know). But yes, ask them. Ask Leonard Pitt. Ask Colin Powell. Ask Condoleeza Rice. For starters, at least.

Its well known that Condo Rice is the "token" black in GWB's administration. Its so that GWB can say he has no predudice.
If he has no predudice, why is it taking so long to clear up after Katrina. California would have it rebuilt if it happened there.

Ask a lot of highly paid people who happen also to be Negroes. are there any? why not ask alot of poor people who happen to be negroes and see what they think about old Condo

Col

I'm puzzled as to why Rich and Col feel that we in the UK can take the moral high ground with regard to Negroes, I think that there are plenty here who feel that they get a raw deal.

Brian

I'm puzzled as to why Rich and Col feel that we in the UK can take the moral high ground with regard to Negroes, I think that there are plenty here who feel that they get a raw deal.

Brian

http://smollin.com/zedit/zippr.jpg

Is that your pixar version of "once upon a time ", Ken ?:rolleyes:

I'm puzzled as to why Rich and Col feel that we in the UK can take the moral high ground with regard to Negroes, I think that there are plenty here who feel that they get a raw deal.

Brian
You mean we have segregation, whites only, no blacks in school, etc, etc?
I don't think so Brian, do you?

Is that your pixar version of "once upon a time ", Ken ?:rolleyes:

As in once upon a time I would have kept my mouth shut? :D

You mean we have segregation, whites only, no blacks in school, etc, etc?
I don't think so Brian, do you?

Where do they still do that?

Where do they still do that?
You mean spiritually or physically?:confused:

As in once upon a time I would have kept my mouth shut? :D

No, the "cooler" needs oil to continue.

The first thing that came to mind (your picture) was the hamonica boy from "once upon ....". I was hoping you'd attached some of Morricone's tunes to the pic, which would sort of substantiate your hear don't speak thing. ;)

You mean spiritually or physically?:confused:

You brought it up braindead - how do I know which way you meant it...:rolleyes:

You brought it up braindead - how do I know which way you meant it...:rolleyes:

You questioned it emptyhead:rolleyes:

No, the "cooler" needs oil to continue.

The first thing that came to mind (your picture) was the hamonica boy from "once upon ....". I was hoping you'd attached some of Morricone's tunes to the pic, which would sort of substantiate your hear don't speak thing. ;)

Oh... kinda the same. It was just that after the previous post it was hard for me to keep my mouth shut - so I zippered it...:D

it was hard for me to keep my mouth shut
It's full of verbal diarrhea anyway, even at the best of times:rolleyes: :cool: :p

Oh... kinda the same. It was just that after the previous post it was hard for me to keep my mouth shut - so I zippered it...:D

Yeah, good tactical move, since Brian made a valid statement, which could only be answered by some british ? ;)

It's full of verbal diarrhea anyway, even at the best of times:rolleyes: :cool: :p

:eek: That's not very nice Rich :p :p

You questioned it emptyhead:rolleyes:

Braindead and emptyhead duking it out....:D :D :D

how do I know which way you meant it...:rolleyes:
It seems you don't know much these days. You no nothing of Coca Cola Z versus diet Coke, and being rather acid in your replies to a civilised question - you seem to have developed a nasty streak by calling people names. Yet you profess to know how my blood pressure may (or may not) fluctuate?

Col

It seems you don't know much these days. You no nothing of Coca Cola Z versus diet Coke, and being rather acid in your replies to a civilised question - you seem to have developed a nasty streak by calling people names. Yet you profess to know how my blood pressure may (or may not) fluctuate?

Col

Are we speaking again?

Are we speaking again?

My previous post was directed at you, if thats what you mean.

Col

My previous post was directed at you, if thats what you mean.

Col

How'd I get you in such a twist? We usally have it out and come out shaking hands. Sorry if I went overboard somewhere...:o

I don't know why I bother to post on the cooler, Rich makes a comment which when challenged to elaborate he merely ducks the issue then gets abusive, Col seems to be holding a grudge, and , well I think I'll retire to the garden.

Brian:confused: :(

Seriously. I'm for witty banter and verbal sparring (not that those terms actually apply to Rich) as much as the next guy. It would be nice, though, if we could hold a conversation that doesn't end up like that once in a while.

It would be nice, though, if we could hold a conversation that doesn't end up like that once in a while.
Ok, lets think up a subject. How about mortgages?


Brian - maybe I need to retire too.

Life is like a pubic hair on a toilet seat, sometimes you get pissed off:D

Col

There you go, the first thing Americans do when anybody dares to criticise them is to brand them anti American.

Rich, you've been told over and over that argumentum ad hominem is not a valid argument.

You can't use the alleged faulty characteristics of your opponent as an argument against his case. Look at it this way:

Y = presumption on opponent's character

1) A says X = true
2) A is American thus Y = true
3) x = false because y = true
4) Y is true because A says X = true when it was false

The argument is completely circular and bad.

If you would stop attributing posters with poor character traits then you would stop receiving so much flak.

Ok, lets think up a subject. How about mortgages?
Pardon my skepticism, but at this point I doubt a topic exists that wouldn't devolve into the usual crap within the first page. It's not the topic that's the problem, it's the participants.

Daniel - a glance through posts will show that on many occasions both Rich and I have been branded "anti-American" just because we comment on something the USA posters object to or disbelieve.

It is perfectly true that if an American poster disagrees then the other poster is labelled anti-American. Probobly due to paranoia I suspect - I'm guessing because I am not an expert in this field - Ken may know, he can do BP from thousands of miles away.:D

Your ABC XYZ stuff goes out the window if an American (or America) is critisised.:rolleyes:

Col

Life is like a pubic hair on a toilet seat, sometimes you get pissed off:D

Col

:eek: :eek: :eek:

- Ken may know, he can do BP from thousands of miles away.:D Col

And your's appears to be getting back to an acceptable level :D :D

Pardon my skepticism, but at this point I doubt a topic exists that wouldn't devolve into the usual crap within the first page. It's not the topic that's the problem, it's the participants.

Oh sorry for trying to start a sensible discussion. :mad: forget it matey

We re-negotiated ours yesterday and I merely wanted to see what others felt about their rates / companies etc.

skepticism? (sp?);)


Col

Daniel - a glance through posts will show that on many occasions both Rich and I have been branded "anti-American" just because we comment on something the USA posters object to or disbelieve.

I completely agree but in the end this doesn't matter. You still can't wield it as a valid argument because it attacks the opponent's character.

The argument that Rich is 'anti-American' is not invalid because he has been called that before by Americans. It is invalid because it is not true.

Why can one not argue that Rich is 'anti-American' because he seems to have no other agenda in the 'cooler than making negative remarks about America? Is that not a valid argument? What ratio of non-negative USA remarks against negative USA remarks do we have to achieve to prove the point?

It is perfectly true that if an American poster disagrees then the other poster is labelled anti-American.

Oh by the way this is completely false. Sometimes this occurs, but mostly it does not.

Why can one not argue that Rich is 'anti-American' because he seems to have no other agenda in the 'cooler than making negative remarks about America?
There are many positive things and worthwhile things about America.

I'm stumped for a moment but I'll ponder it overnight.

How about. . . . . . . no, no, thats not one. . . . . . .

leave it with me

Col

We re-negotiated ours yesterday and I merely wanted to see what others felt about their rates / companies etc.
Col

I'm interested in hearing what the 1st mortgage rate is in the UK :confused:

We refi'ed a couple years ago at 4.75 but we timed it pretty good. I think it's back up around 6-7 now...

There are many positive things and worthwhile things about America.

I'm stumped for a moment but I'll ponder it overnight.

How about. . . . . . . no, no, thats not one. . . . . . .

leave it with me

Col

(It wouldn't have killed you to have given up a smiley :p )

What's a mortgage? :D :D :D

Brian

mort·gage ( P ) Pronunciation Key (môrgj)
n.
A temporary, conditional pledge of property to a creditor as security for performance of an obligation or repayment of a debt.
A contract or deed specifying the terms of a mortgage.
The claim of a mortgagee upon mortgaged property.


Did I miss something :confused:

Yes Ken , the smileys were to indicate that you finally get to a state where you don't have a mortgage.

Age can have its advantages:D

Brian

There are many positive things and worthwhile things about America.


Why have you assumed that you need to search for positive aspects of America?

My point was that out of the billions of different available topics to choose from, the sole point of focus seems to be the negative aspects of America.

That is the argument of Rich being anti-American. He seems to focus on no other topic. Even you couldn't remove yourself from this frame-set. You presumed that the only other available topic would be positive American aspects. Why could it have not been , I don't know, ...igloo building.

Yes Ken , the smileys were to indicate that you finally get to a state where you don't have a mortgage.

Age can have its advantages:D

Brian

You crafty devil... slipped that one right passed me...:D :D :D

..., I don't know, ...igloo building.

:eek: :eek: :eek:

http://www.greatdreams.com/native/igloo.jpg

(Sorry, you had to know it was coming...:p )

:eek: :eek: :eek:

http://www.greatdreams.com/native/igloo.jpg

(Sorry, you had to know it was coming...:p )

LMAO is that a satellite dish? :D

LMAO is that a satellite dish? :D

Yes. So they can watch bbc & chips :D :D

Yes. So they can watch bbc & chips :D :D
:D :D :D ...

Yes. So they can watch bbc & chips :D :D

I never miss an episode of Hell's Kitchen with that chef Gordon Ramsey. He is hilarious. One classic line he said last night was something like:

"I scream at people because if you scare them, they're more likely to remember what I said" :D

"I scream at people because if you scare them, they're more likely to remember what I said" :D

That sounds a bit like Rich's strategy :eek: :D :D

That sounds a bit like Rich's strategy :eek: :D :D

No, he's more like static interference :eek: :p

Oh sorry for trying to start a sensible discussion. :mad: forget it matey
Wow. It took an entire 7 minutes for you to prove my point. Congratulations, that's record time. :rolleyes:

"I scream at people because if you scare them, they're more likely to remember what I said" :D
That's funny, but if memory serves correctly just the opposite is true: that stress inhibits memory. ...Yep, I remembered correctly.

http://www.fi.edu/brain/stress.htm#stressmemory

No, he's more like static interference :eek: :p

stat·ic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sttk)
adj.

n.
Random noise, such as crackling in a receiver or specks on a television screen, produced by atmospheric disturbance of the signal.
Informal.
Back talk.
Interference; obstruction.
Angry or heated criticism.

Yeah... That's him :D

That's funny, but if memory serves correctly just the opposite is true: that stress inhibits memory. ...Yep, I remembered correctly.

http://www.fi.edu/brain/stress.htm#stressmemory

That explains it - Rich simply stays stressed out... :p :p

Yeah... That's him :D

It was more accurate than I intended :D

It was more accurate than I intended :D

Why do you suppose they are so rude? Weren't they brought up to know you should be nice to everyone?

Why do you suppose they are so rude? Weren't they brought up to know you should be nice to everyone?

Something to do with this (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/o/oscarwilde128481.html) I reckon.

http://www.fi.edu/brain/stress.htm#stressmemory

I got stressed out just reading the first few paragraphs, how circular is that?

Getting stressed out over damaging your brain because of too much stress? :eek:

(It wouldn't have killed you to have given up a smiley :p )

Colin must have missed it when he copied and pasted that line from his post a while back.

Get some new material! :p

Colin must have missed it when he copied and pasted that line from his post a while back.

Get some new material! :p

It's kind of like those old American sit-com's they enjoy so much; over and over and over and over...
Makes a person dizzy -

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c23/arieska/dizzy.gif

I don't know why I bother to post on the cooler, Rich makes a comment which when challenged to elaborate he merely ducks the issue then gets abusive, Col seems to be holding a grudge, and , well I think I'll retire to the garden.

Brian:confused: :(

Where did you challenge me to elaborate Brian? :confused:

Rich, you've been told over and over that argumentum ad hominem is not a valid argument.



You're the one trying to make an argument out of it, I merely made a statement.

Its well known that Condo Rice is the "token" black in GWB's administration.

are there any? <relates to a quoted question about highly paid blacks - PB>

On your first point, people offering that opinion doesn't make it a fact. In my opinion, if you want a token, you appoint them to positions of less importance (like Clinton did). The Secretary of State is 4th in line to succeed the president. I don't think you appoint a "token" to that position.

On your second, this is exactly the un-informed position I was talking about earlier. Without even getting into all the ultra-rich famous black people, I personally know at least 10 who make well into 6 figures. I went to a high school reunion of an old "all-black" school, and there were more Mercedes, BMW's, Jaquar's etc. in the parking lot than you could count. Certainly not "hard statistics", but please don't think every black person here is sitting on the street corner with a tin cup. That's just plain ignorance.

You're the one trying to make an argument out of it, I merely made a statement.

Which contributed nothing.

Which contributed nothing.
Subjective :cool:

Subjective :cool:

You got some kind of kick out of it you mean :confused:

You got some kind of kick out of it you mean :confused:
No, why would you come to that conclusion, other than being American that is?:confused:

... That's just plain ignorance.

Just plain too much hot tea, tarts and Chps

Just plain too much hot tea, tarts and Chps
What's chps, something the poor in America have to eat?:confused:

No, why would you come to that conclusion, other than being American that is?:confused:

One of the interpretations of 'subjective' is existing only in the mind and not the real world. As you said, the contribution factor of your statement was subjective, so I proposed the possibility that the contribution was of one of personal gratification.

P.S How does me being American influence this rationale :confused:

One of the interpretations of 'subjective' is existing only in the mind and not the real world. As you said, the contribution factor of your statement was subjective, so I proposed the possibility that the contribution was of one of personal gratification.

On that basis I could argue that all of my 20k posts bring personal gratification, well I suppose that since my sole purpose is to attempt to educate the lost souls and help where possible you could be right:eek:
but the again one could argue that you're beyond help

P.S How does me being American influence this rationale :confused

History, both recent and past that Americans jump to the wrong conclusion, unless you're going to argue that the actions of America over the last say 50yrs. has nothing to do with Americans:confused:

P.S How does me being American influence this rationale :confused:
Because simply being an American is the single contributing factor to anything and everything that Americans do. Duh. :rolleyes:

On that basis I could argue that all of my 20k posts bring personal gratification, well I suppose that since my sole purpose is to attempt to educate the lost souls and help where possible you could be right:eek:
You know what, Rich? I'd bet money that if the UK decided to make it legal to marry yourself, you'd be the first in line for a license.

You know what, Rich? I'd bet money that if the UK decided to make it legal to marry yourself, you'd be the first in line for a license.
I couldn't cope with the competition

On that basis I could argue that all of my 20k posts bring personal gratification

LMAO - you could indeed if not one of your posts was objective. Is that what you're saying Rich? :D That each and every one of your posts is devoid of objectivity?

History, both recent and past that Americans jump to the wrong conclusion, unless you're going to argue that the actions of America over the last say 50yrs. has nothing to do with Americans:confused:

Your argument is wrong because there is something wrong with your character blah blah blah... yawn.

LMAO - you could indeed if not one of your posts was objective. Is that what you're saying Rich? :D That each and every one of your posts is devoid of objectivity?

I'll use the American opt out clause Daniella and leave it to God to decide :cool:


Your argument is wrong because there is something wrong with your character blah blah blah... yawn

There's nothing wrong with my character and in any event we're talking about America :p

I'll use the American opt out clause Daniella and leave it to God to decide :cool:

That's Miss Daniella to you :rolleyes: :D




There's nothing wrong with my character and in any event we're talking about America :p

Quelle surprise! :p

That's Miss Daniella to you :rolleyes: :D

Wishful thinking? :eek: :confused: :p

]There's nothing wrong with my character and in any event we're talking about America :p
I'm having a vague recollection of some prominent Brit saying at some point, "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject". Seems appropos for some reason...

appropos...
Him speak with forked tongue, please try and use English:rolleyes:

I'm having a vague recollection of some prominent Brit saying at some point, "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject".

and I have a vague recollection of someone saying
Facts are the enemy of truth
what's your point?

I personally know at least 10 who make well into 6 figures. I went to a high school reunion of an old "all-black" school, and there were more Mercedes, BMW's, Jaquar's etc. in the parking lot than you could count.
US TV and Hollywood nearly always portray successful rich black men as "pimps" or drug barons, very lucrative business sex and drugs - and before Ken jumps down my throat by saying never believe Hollywood - there must be some substance in it or they [Hollywood] wouldn't do it - after all, they don't show white men or hispanic in that way.

Whities are usually portrayed as the goodies, blacks are always the baddies.;)

If there was more Mercs, BM's and Jags in the car park than you could count, then I suggest the US education system must once again be questioned over its teaching of basic mathmatics and mental arithmatic:rolleyes:

Col

Why have you assumed that you need to search for positive aspects of America?

My point was that out of the billions of different available topics to choose from, the sole point of focus seems to be the negative aspects of America.


So thats why I thought listing some positive / good things to come out of the USA may redress the balance.

Anyway, I had a long think overnight and made a list.


1) The Fender Stratocaster
2) Elvis Presley


Col

Well we could grant them coffee, even if they do drink it like cold dishwater themselves, though I have to add that they're ashamed of their women over there

Well we could grant them coffee, even if they do drink it like cold dishwater themselves, though I have to add that they're ashamed of their women over there
Coffee is from South America isn't it? You know, Brazil and all that.

Col

Well we could grant them coffee, even if they do drink it like cold dishwater themselves, though I have to add that they're ashamed of their women over there
Coffee is from South America isn't it? You know, Brazil and all that.

Col

Coffee is from South America isn't it? You know, Brazil and all that.

Col

Maybe he meant our infamous cigarette tobacco
;) :rolleyes:

Coffee is from South America isn't it? You know, Brazil and all that.

Col
Yes I was just giving them credit for its popularity here, I'm trying to look for positives but it's difficult when overwhelmed by all the negatives

Yes I was just giving them credit for its popularity here, I'm trying to look for positives but it's difficult when overwhelmed by all the negatives
Oh I see - I was thinking you'd heard that the USA was part of South America or something.

I've already posted a comprehensive list of positive / good things that have come out of the USA. Is there any more? I spent ages thinking about it last night.:rolleyes:

Col

Oh I see - I was thinking you'd heard that the USA was part of South America or something.

I've already posted a comprehensive list of positive / good things that have come out of the USA. Is there any more? I spent ages thinking about it last night.:rolleyes:

Col

You must think a lot of wiggle hips and guitars if that balanced it :D :D :D

I've already posted a comprehensive list of positive / good things that have come out of the USA.Is there any more? Col
Nah it would be much easier to post a comprehensive list of all the good things they've had from us

You must think a lot of wiggle hips and guitars if that balanced it :D :D :D
That was all I could think of. Sadly it doesn't redress the balance even if we add Rich's South American coffee to the list.

Oh, I've just thought of another:rolleyes: the Zippo fag lighter - excellent, I have one I use all the time.

Now we're motoring - the list has grown to nearly 4 things:eek:

Col

US TV and Hollywood nearly always portray successful rich black men as "pimps" or drug barons, very lucrative business sex and drugs - and before Ken jumps down my throat by saying never believe Hollywood - there must be some substance in it or they [Hollywood] wouldn't do it - after all, they don't show white men or hispanic in that way.

Whities are usually portrayed as the goodies, blacks are always the baddies.;)

If there was more Mercs, BM's and Jags in the car park than you could count, then I suggest the US education system must once again be questioned over its teaching of basic mathmatics and mental arithmatic:rolleyes:

Col

I really don't think you can use Hollywood as a gauge. They have shown white men as cops going around killing everything is sight, blowing the crap out of a large city, yet that doesn't happen in real life.

I think one of Doc_Man's comments on this subject is being some what lost. He said that the opportunity is here. I have worked in the disabled community for 20 years now, which means I deal with a lot of government funding to get medical equipment paid for, which in turn means I deal with a lot of low income families. When I go to these project 8 housing, it always amazes me how many men are home, during the day and not working. It's not because they can't get a job cause jobs are available. I think we have created a system in this country, that if someone wants to sit back and let the government hand them a check every month, then they will take it and now we are several generations into this and these men today do not know anything different. The Americans, that are posting here, are trying to tell you what we live everyday, but you really don't want to hear it. If any man of any color wants to take hold of the opportunity to work, then he can and can have a good job with good benefits and a good retirement, including blacks. We all live in communities that see a large number of blacks that have done that and are doing well.

When I go to these project 8 housing, it always amazes me how many men are home, during the day and not working. It's not because they can't get a job cause jobs are available. I think we have created a system in this country, that if someone wants to sit back and let the government hand them a check every month, then they will take it and now we are several generations into this and these men today do not know anything different.
Sounds just like the UK

Brian

We all live in communities that see a large number of blacks that have done that and are doing well.

The figures for Texas don't support that theory

Sounds just like the UK

Brian
Would that apply to the whites here or coloured?:confused:

I think we have created a system in this country, that if someone wants to sit back and let the government hand them a check every month, then they will take it and now we are several generations into this and these men today do not know anything different...If any man of any color wants to take hold of the opportunity to work, then he can and can have a good job with good benefits and a good retirement, including blacks.And let's not forget that most (not all) of those living off of the fat, bloated, carcass that is our welfare system will also sit, whine, and complain that their lazy worthless a** doesn't get enough of a handout and it's because of the jews, whites, blacks, hispanics, or any other segment of society that keeps the emphasis on where the fault really lies.

...which in turn, perpetuates the fallicies that Rich continues to spew forth

And let's not forget that most (not all) of those living off of the fat, bloated, carcass that is our welfare system will also sit, whine, and complain that their lazy worthless a** doesn't get enough of a handout and it's because of the jews, whites, blacks, hispanics, or any other segment of society that keeps the emphasis on where the fault really lies.

...which in turn, perpetuates the fallicies that Rich continues to spew forth

Totally agree.

And let's not forget that most (not all) of those living off of the fat, bloated, carcass that is our welfare system will also sit, whine, and complain that their lazy worthless a** doesn't get enough of a handout and it's because of the jews, whites, blacks, hispanics, or any other segment of society that keeps the emphasis on where the fault really lies.

...which in turn, perpetuates the fallicies that Rich continues to spew forth
That's it, blame and target the poor for the faults in your system, it's the easiest thing in the world for those that have employment to simply blame those that don't and point the finger at them.:rolleyes:

The figures for Texas don't support that theory

and what digging reference am I support to take from this statement? It's not a theory. I have a hard time seeing how you may such strong opinions on things that you don't live. We live here. We see it. Does "figures for Texas don't support that theory" suppose to mean we're a prejudice state so "of course" we would have a view point like that?

That's it, blame and target the poor for the faults in your system, it's the easiest thing in the world for those that have employment to simply blame those that don't and point the finger at them.:rolleyes:

Your wrong on this Rich. People can work in this country, if they want to. How is that even illegals can get jobs here, if they are not available. We have a fat system of people just living off of it and then complaining that they are not given enough. This is not a "black" prejudice statement cause there are more whites on welfare than blacks. It's just a fact. We have a system that not only helps the helpless but it's become a system of helping those who would rather stay home all day and do nothing.

That's it, blame and target the poor for the faults in your system, it's the easiest thing in the world for those that have employment to simply blame those that don't and point the finger at them.:rolleyes:
I'll give you a 'fer instance:My ex-wife worked with a woman who was collecting welfare, foodstamps, the whole nine-yards for not only herself and her three kids, but her non-employed, non-motivated husband as well. They came to the conclusion, and calculations supported it, that if they had one more child, their income would be raised to the point that she would no longer have to work. She got pregnant and just before the birth, she quit her job, never to even attempt to become gainfully employed since (had more kids, though:rolleyes: )

Now, I'm not implying that all recipients are like that, but it goes to prove a point.

I really don't think you can use Hollywood as a gauge. They have shown white men as cops going around killing everything is sight, blowing the crap out of a large city, yet that doesn't happen in real life.


The general Hollywood and TV trend is to show pimps and drug barons as predominately black. Some are white - true. But that is one reason as to why you may apparently see so many Mercs etc being driven by blacks.

American cops do not go around killing everything in sight - thats silly:rolleyes: they are merely corrupt and inflict beatings should anyone cross them, like Rodney King for example.

Col

like Rodney King for example. The moron was strung out on crack, doing 100+mph in a Hyundai, and too stupid to stay down when 5 guys with big sticks told him too...

The general Hollywood and TV trend is to show pimps and drug barons as predominately black. Some are white - true. But that is one reason as to why you may apparently see so many Mercs etc being driven by blacks.

True, they have done that. Not necessarily the trend now days though.


American cops do not go around killing everything in sight - thats silly:rolleyes: they are merely corrupt and inflict beatings should anyone cross them, like Rodney King for example.
Col

Not going to bite on this one, but there is plenty more to the story than what you've stated.

The moron was strung out on crack, doing 100+mph in a Hyundai, and too stupid to stay down when 5 guys with big sticks told him too...
Plus he was black, so it gave them the perfect excuse to dish out a beating.

Actually he needed a medal, getting 100mph out of a Hyundai is not easy:D
How about one of those badges the soldiers get for breaking a nail. . . . purple heart is it? when I was at school, that was a drug we used to take.:rolleyes:

Col

How about one of those badges the soldiers get for breaking a nail. . . . purple heart is it? when I was at school, that was a drug we used to take.:rolleyes:
Col

Here's an example of the digging statements that are always thrown it, off subject and appears to me, to be totally unnecessary. You take something that we value and has honor and piss all over it. My dad was in the Army, my brother retired from the Army, and for me, this is something that has a place of honor. You, apparently, don't give a crap what anyone values....especially if they are American.

Here's an example of the digging statements that are always thrown it, off subject and appears to me, to be totally unnecessary. You take something that we value and has honor and piss all over it. My dad was in the Army, my brother retired from the Army, and for me, this is something that has a place of honor. You, apparently, don't give a crap what anyone values....especially if they are American.

Best post I've read in a long time - :) :) :)

Here's an example of the digging statements that are always thrown it, off subject and appears to me, to be totally unnecessary. You take something that we value and has honor and piss all over it. My dad was in the Army, my brother retired from the Army, and for me, this is something that has a place of honor. You, apparently, don't give a crap what anyone values....especially if they are American.

Best post I've read in a long time - :) :) :)

If there was more Mercs, BM's and Jags in the car park than you could count, then I suggest the US education system must once again be questioned over its teaching of basic mathmatics and mental arithmatic

Great sidestep of the issue. I'm definitely outgunned here. I'm trying to use logic and facts, and I'm up against... Well, I don't know what I'm up against, but it's not logic and facts, and it's certainly not an open mind. I yield to you as well. We were trying to hide it, but you're right: all the black people here are either poor and helpless or ruthless drug dealers. If they have a nice car, they either stole it or bought it with drug money.

Great sidestep of the issue. I'm definitely outgunned here. I'm trying to use logic and facts, and I'm up against... Well, I don't know what I'm up against, but it's not logic and facts, and it's certainly not an open mind. ...

I'm not sure what you're up in arms about - It's status quo as I see it for the simpleton duet...:rolleyes:

Plus he was black, so it gave them the perfect excuse to dish out a beating.Wouldn't have mattered if he was a Flying Purple People Eater...
he needed a medal, getting 100mph out of a Hyundai is not easy:DI'm still trying to figure out where he found a long enough downhill run to accomplish such a feat:D

Here's an example of the digging statements that are always thrown it, off subject and appears to me, to be totally unnecessary. You take something that we value and has honor and piss all over it.
My dad was in the Army, my brother retired from the Army, and for me, this is something that has a place of honor.
Keep your knickers on Shaney:rolleyes: if American TV programmes like M.A.S.H. can belittle the purple heart - like the episode where a soldier had an appendix operation and got one, or the one where Frank Burns accidentally shot his foot and he got one - what the hell are we supposed to think? The USA can't chuck out all this stuff on TV then wonder why people think the way they do:rolleyes: the impression given is that if a soldier breaks a nail or has a skin graze then they get a medal. Hollywood is not good PR for the USA. Oh and you're not the only person to have relatives to have served in the armed forces.:rolleyes:
You, apparently, don't give a crap what anyone values....especially if they are American. when Americans start thinking about other peoples values instead of being totally insular, maybe things may change.

Does the US government think of peoples values before they bomb them? NO

Does the US think of other peoples values whilst they ignore the Kyoto agreement for payment of backhanders?

Does the US think of other peoples values whilst stockpiling oil so "we'll be ok" when things get tight?

Does the US think of other peoples values arming Israel to kill innocent people and children on their behalf?

Does Ken think of our values before he belittles and mocks our Queen? (god bless her) - who knows what Ken thinks;) :rolleyes:

Great sidestep of the issue.
not sidestepping anything. The quote was and there were more Mercedes, BMW's, Jaquar's etc. in the parking lot than you could count.
I was merely speculating on how many this would have to be to make it "more than you could count" or is it a fault of the US education system that restricts peoples counting ability:confused: how big a car park (parking lot) would it have to be? - as big as Heathrow airport? there are many questions raised in that statement;)

We were trying to hide it, but you're right: all the black people here are either poor and helpless or ruthless drug dealers. If they have a nice car, they either stole it or bought it with drug money.
I didn't say that at all - I said The general Hollywood and TV trend is to show pimps and drug barons as predominately black. Some are white - true. But that is one reason as to why you may apparently see so many Mercs etc being driven by blacks.
I would certainly not class all black people in this way, as you have.

Please pay more attention when reading the posts:rolleyes:

Col

I'm not sure what you're up in arms about - It's status quo as I see it for the simpleton duet...:rolleyes:
Great British rock band.:D ;) link (http://www.bbc.co.uk/music/profiles/statusquo.shtml)

Col

Does Ken think of our values before he belittles and mocks our Queen? (god bless her)

Here's a deal for you - Stop insulting our president and I'll stop insulting your Queen. Either take the deal or shut up.

... who knows what Ken thinks;) :rolleyes:

Then allow me to clarify: I think you and Rich and nomore probably are nice guys in general, but around here you are too often rude and hypocrytical.


(god bless her)


Thats even more funny when you embed it the rest of your manure...:D :D

when Americans start thinking about other peoples values instead of being totally insular, maybe things may change

Does the US government think of peoples values before they bomb them? NO

Does the US think of other peoples values whilst they ignore the Kyoto agreement for payment of backhanders?

Does the US think of other peoples values whilst stockpiling oil so "we'll be ok" when things get tight?

Does the US think of other peoples values arming Israel to kill innocent people and children on their behalf?

Does Ken think of our values before he belittles and mocks our Queen? (god bless her) - who knows what Ken thinks;) :rolleyes: See? Those are exactly the kind of blanket statements that irritate the hell out of me:mad: You are applying attributes of the current administration to the entirety of the population even though the opinion polls have him at the lowest point of any prez in history. Look at the current approval ratings (http://www.pollingreport.com/BushJob.htm)from across the country and you'll find that the majority most certainly do not approve!

Would you please stop arbitrarily grouping me in with the sheep? Some of us do have minds of our own, understand what spin is, understand twisting of facts, and are not deceived. I'll thank you to remember that there are some of us with IQ's far above the level that you and your fellow bashers presume to attribute to Americans as a whole...and we are not amused:mad:

As far as the Queen (Gesundheit!) goes, seems to me that a little of your own medicine would do more good than appealing to your sense of open-mindedness.

See?...

Let it go... Being belligerent is in his blood. Some people a simply born with it, some pick it up along they way - Who knows why he's that way :rolleyes:

Here's a deal for you - Stop insulting our president and I'll stop insulting your Queen. Either take the deal or shut up.
not comparing like with like there Kenny.:p Your President is a warmongering, moneygrabbing dictator who kills in the name of a fairy tale religion - not a description I would allocate to our Queen (god bless her);)



Then allow me to clarify: I think you and Rich and nomore probably are nice guys in general, but around here you are too often rude and hypocrytical.Rich and I merely try to point out things which are unfortunately not usually known to you for various reasons.

Col