I have a relationship question that I've had a hard time finding someone I can talk to about. I thought this might be a good place to hear others' opinions, since I know there are many caring people here who have experience with the challenges of a long-term relationship.

Most people will agree that sexual compatibility is an important part of any lasting relationship. And beyond compatibility, that sometimes sexual contact is about emotional expression and connection. But it also appears that most people agree that after a few years sexual compatibility becomes less important and the key to a healthy relationship is compatibility on other levels. So here's my question:

What would you do if you're in a relationship where your compatibility is great on every level except sexually? Your relationship is fullfilling intellectually, socially, spiritually, and emotionally but sexually you just don't feel satisfied anymore. It's not that there is no more mutual desire, but that the sexual elements you need in order to feel fullfilled aren't there anymore. The emotional connection you used to feel through sex isn't there anymore, or worse - the feeling is there but it doesn't feel like it is reciprocated.

Would you feel like staying in the relationship is settling for less than you deserve? Or would you feel like it is simply a normal part of the relationship process and that the other fullfilling parts of the relationship are vastly more important? Would it bother you that you feel like you still have passion for your partner but they don't have it for you?

Obviously, I'm not speaking hypothetically here but I'm also trying to be vague enough to talk about the topic as it applies to any relationship.

Just how blunt can I be on this one? (I'm not talking extreme mind you :))

As blunt as you want to be. I need some good, honest advice.

Sounds like you may be placing too high a priority on sex. I would say lose the guy, find yourself a good woman, settle down and have a kid or two. I think you'd make a great dad. Put your priority there, not in sex with some other guy. Just because you've slept with a guy doesn't mean you've crossed some kind of point of no return. The physical thing peaks for most everyone. I'm guessing either you or your partners interest has either peaked in general terms or else they've peaked with each other. Always happens, then what do you have?

Hope I haven't come across too rash - And of course these are merely my opinions and I am not presenting them as some kind of high and mighty 'see it my way or else'...

Relationships go through peaks and troughs, but whilst many aspects gain strength over the years the sexual side never gets back to the "can't keep your hands off each other " days, but it can still be good again , even after 40 years.

brian

If every other part of the relationship is good, you need to COMMUNICATE. Otherwise you would not have the problem you describe. And if you cannot communicate the nature of the problem, then your relationship isn't as good as you think it is.

Hope I haven't come across too rash ...
Not at all, Ken. But I'm wondering why my sexuallity is being factored into your response. I would think that my dilemma is equally applicable to a heterosexual relationship, so I don't see why switching to one would necessarily solve my problem.

I'm really more interested in hearing from people who have been through something similar rather than have people tell me what they think I should do.

Relationships go through peaks and troughs, but whilst many aspects gain strength over the years the sexual side never gets back to the "can't keep your hands off each other " days, but it can still be good again , even after 40 years.

brian
Brain, I'm really not talking about the romantic "can't keep your hands off each other " days, I'm talking about the deep emotional connection; what makes the difference between making love and just sex. Does that still apply to the troughs you refer to? Have you experienced extended periods of time where there simply was no emotional connection in your sex life but it came back after a time? If so, how did you cope with that loss of a connection?

If every other part of the relationship is good, you need to COMMUNICATE. Otherwise you would not have the problem you describe. And if you cannot communicate the nature of the problem, then your relationship isn't as good as you think it is.
I would appreciate being asked questions rather than having conclusions made on assumptions. We have communicated on this matter two or three times over the past year or so, but little has changed. He is happy the way things are, I am not; but at the same time I don't want to try and force my partner to do things he doesn't want to do in order to make me happy.

What would you do if you're in a relationship where your compatibility is great on every level except sexually? .

Simple, have an affair, maybe even more than one

Not at all, Ken. But I'm wondering why my sexuallity is being factored into your response. I would think that my dilemma is equally applicable to a heterosexual relationship, so I don't see why switching to one would necessarily solve my problem.

I'm really more interested in hearing from people who have been through something similar rather than have people tell me what they think I should do.


But I don't think you are getting my point(s). I think most everyone kind of peaks when it comes to sex. I think that at certain times it is on top of the priority list and then it just sort goes into coasting, kind of tapering off. Not that it's not enjoyable, etc. Just not as important.

In your case I think your partner has peaked before you. So..... I also think that in a relationship like you are in, the sex thing is a more dominate topic because it's on the table more often, kind of a higher visibility thing in your everyday life. And I think that may cause you to dwell on it a bit more than you would if you weren't in such a non-typical type relationship...

Does all this sort of, kind of make sense...?

I'll zero in on what seems like the key point to me:

The emotional connection you used to feel through sex isn't there anymore, or worse - the feeling is there but it doesn't feel like it is reciprocated.

Would it bother you that you feel like you still have passion for your partner but they don't have it for you?

It would bother me to be in this situation. I've been around long enough to have discovered the difference between making love and having sex, and the mutual emotional connection you describe is IMHO crucial to the former. If I was the only one feeling it, I'd wonder if my partner's emotions were fading elsewhere, not just in bed.

What would you do if you're in a relationship where your compatibility is great on every level except sexually? Your relationship is fullfilling intellectually, socially, spiritually, and emotionally but sexually you just don't feel satisfied anymore. It's not that there is no more mutual desire, but that the sexual elements you need in order to feel fullfilled aren't there anymore. The emotional connection you used to feel through sex isn't there anymore, or worse - the feeling is there but it doesn't feel like it is reciprocated.

Would you feel like staying in the relationship is settling for less than you deserve? Or would you feel like it is simply a normal part of the relationship process and that the other fullfilling parts of the relationship are vastly more important? Would it bother you that you feel like you still have passion for your partner but they don't have it for you?

I would feel as if I was in a long term relationship with my best friend instead of with a partner. In my experience, the first place that relationships start to fall off is sexually, because that is the least noticeable - the easiest to accomplish without getting questioned. As you say, it can easily be written off as the natural order of things, that some elements of sex wane over time in a relationship. However, left as they are, I believe that these diminishing elements creep into other aspects of the relationship as time goes on.

I find myself on your partner's side of your situation, because I have no emotional connection with my BF. There is also no more desire for me, but that is due to a myriad of complexities that I don't want to go into right now. However, I know that is bothers my BF that I don't have it for him anymore. If I was in his position, I would have broken up with me long ago, but he is in a different place, and I will wind up being the one to do the breaking up (which by the way, is probably imminent). But we aren't as compatible in all other areas as you and your partner appear to be.

Getting back to your question, though, if my partner was aware of these changes in our relationship, and was completely satisfied with the way things were, then it would become my issue. And it would then depend on how uncomfortable I was in the relationship with that one aspect, and how well I could live with it. If I couldn't live with it, then it would be time for me to move on. There are times when it seems that people sometimes grow apart, and this could just be one of them.

Lisa

Well here's my two cents worth...

All my opinion, not gospel.

No matter what anybody says, relationships need to be cared for.
If not, then the emotional connections you speak of will wither, regardless.

When relationships first start, one's emotions seem to guarantee you that the 100% factor is permanent and that can lead to taking what you have for granted further down the line. In reality everything needs repairing from time to time.

So you've come to the point where things don't seem to be quite right. Well to me all that says is that it's time for some maintenance. By that I mean talk to your partner about your concerns and go forward from there. Don't presume it's a junker before you've checked under the hood. ;)

... Don't presume it's a junker before you've checked under the hood. ;)

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Does all this sort of, kind of make sense...?
Yep, and worth thinking about. Thanks. :)

And thank you Brian, Paul, Lisa and Dan for your input as well. I may continue to add to the topic or just muse over people's responses. Everyone's input is greatly appreciated. :)

Yep, and worth thinking about. Thanks. :)

And thank you Brian, Paul, Lisa and Dan for your input as well. I may continue to add to the topic or just muse over people's responses. Everyone's input is greatly appreciated. :)


I'm thinking I blew it. My perspective is so one dimensional... Sorry - :o

I'm thinking I blew it. My perspective is so one dimensional... Sorry - :o
I don't know why you'd say that, my friend. This is not something that I can figure out after a few posts. There's no one thing anyone can say that will instantly resolve my dilemma. I just need to think things through and any input is helpful.

That is a really deep issue, Greg!
I have a lot to say about it, personally.
But, it's hard to share such personal issues.
Not that I think anyone here would judge me.... but I'm just not sure I want everyone to know me THAT well here.... lol.... I mean... heck, that's not something I ever talk about with anyone but my dearest, closest friends... or my little sister!

What I can tell you is this:
I've had, from time to time, my own doubts as to whether it was better to stay in a relationship or to leave. And the question has always been, IS there anything else that would be better???? And I honestly don't know. I have thought, will I be angry with myself, if 20 years from now, I feel I have settled for something not quite as wonderful as I'd hoped? Or will I be angry with myself if 20 years from now, I look back and believe I threw away the best thing I could have had in search for something that just didn't exist?
Since the question is impossible to answer, I've stayed. Now, if push comes to shove and the things I am unhappy about overtake me and push out the things that are satisfactory.... well, I guess the decision will be clearer then.

I also think that love is not just an emotion, but a choice. I think you can talk yourself into or out of just about anything, including who you are in love with. And, I guess that being said, if I was in a relationship with someone who I was head over heels for, but I knew they didn't feel the same way, I'd ask them if they wanted to work on falling in love with me. If they didn't, I'd have to leave. Because I wouldn't short myself and undercut my own value by being with someone who didn't even love me enough to TRY and be IN love with me.

And, if I was the one who wasn't in love, I guess I'd have to ask myself if I wanted to try. And if I didn't love them enough to try, well, then there'd be no point in staying, really.... because I'd have just sentenced myself to a lifetime of complacency with no passion. And, geez, isn't THAT a depressing thought?

What do you think, sweetie? Can you relate to where I'm coming from? And do you think it just comes down to a simple choice? I'm interested in your feedback!!!!

Guys always seem to have a hard time communicating true feelings, gay or straight. For a same-sex couple, I'm sure it can be even more so. You say you've discussed this with him before, what were his thoughts? You can usually gather what the outcome of the relationship will be from what you were able to learn from him.

I am by no means an expert as I'm only newly married myself, but I believe it's hard for us to make a call without knowing his side as well as yours because as they say, there are two sides to EVERY story, even a love story.

Well deary!

On the outside it looks like everything is ok, however if the sex life is starting to faulter, then perhaps there is something deeper that is being over looked. Generally, from my experience, if the sex life starts hurting then something is wrong. No matter if everything else seems ok, there is a problem.

I would suggest you and him sit down and talk about it. This really is something that you and him have to work out.

I reallly wish I had some better adivce baby doll, but seeing how I'm currently in a divorce I don't think I would be much help.

I can tell you this, before things came to a head in my marriage the sex life became null and void. Yes, most men can get aroused and it not have a thing to do with what is on their mind, but a woman on the other hand can't. When I'm upset with my partner, I just can't perform. Nor do I want to.

I know, I'm probably not much help, but I'm here if you want to chat. *hugs*

Well deary!
most men can get aroused and it not have a thing to do with what is on their mind, but a woman on the other hand can't.

You should probably speak for yourself on both counts. I've known women with bigger sex drives than me. :D

Guys always seem to have a hard time communicating true feelings, gay or straight. For a same-sex couple, I'm sure it can be even more so. You say you've discussed this with him before, what were his thoughts? You can usually gather what the outcome of the relationship will be from what you were able to learn from him.
Well, it's kind of an odd animal. Yes we've talked about it and when we have he has been receptive and understanding. And I have to be honest with myself and realize that he has been trying. The problem is it just doesn't feel like the situation is changing, and his efforts just feel so forced. I'm not sure I even know how to talk about it with him anymore. I mean, I don't want him to feel like he's forced to do things he doesn't want to do just to make me happy. And I know relationships are work, but I don't know how to work on how you feel about someone. I feel like what I want from him is for him to want to do different things and to feel differently than he does. But he can't make himself want something or feel a certain way any more than I can make him. So how can I expect him to make any kind of change if I can't even tell him what he can do?

I am by no means an expert as I'm only newly married myself, but I believe it's hard for us to make a call without knowing his side as well as yours because as they say, there are two sides to EVERY story, even a love story.
You're exactly right, which is why it's so hard for me to find someone to talk to about this. Everyone I know either would not understand or is friends with both of us so I can't really get a brutally honest opinion. But at the same time, anyone who doesn't know anything beyond what I say only gets the story from my point of view.

I don't expect you guys to come up with all the answers, but just talking about it is really helping me, I think. I hope.

I have thought, will I be angry with myself, if 20 years from now, I feel I have settled for something not quite as wonderful as I'd hoped? Or will I be angry with myself if 20 years from now, I look back and believe I threw away the best thing I could have had in search for something that just didn't exist?
That's it. That's exactly it! That's exactly the question I've been asking myself. And I think your answer makes perfect sense.

I do agree that love is a choice. In my opinion, a healthy committment does not mean "I promise to stay with you no matter how miserable or incompatible we are just because a promise is a promise". I think it means "I choose to be with you every day. I choose to fight through the tough times because I value those as much as the good times. I choose to be with you even when I'm mad as all hell at you because you make me a better person." Maybe that's a bit melodramatic, but so be it. We poofs can get away with that. ;)

I feel like I've got more to say but nothing's coming. Meh. I've blathered plenty for one post.

Oh and Selena, sweetie: don't worry, I didn't ignore your post I just think everything I would say in response I've already said. If I catch you online, I'll take advantage of your chat offer. :D

What would you do if you're in a relationship where your compatibility is great on every level except sexually? Your relationship is fullfilling intellectually, socially, spiritually, and emotionally but sexually you just don't feel satisfied anymore.



I guess every relationship needs maintenance. If the relationship is healthy on an intellectual, social, spiritual and emotional level ( which sounds to good to be true), but lacks sexual satisfaction, you’ll need to work on that or leave it for some time, because you might have focused too much on that aspect of life.
Sometimes a relationship might improve by some outside occurance, beyond control.
In my case, my relationship with my wife ( I’m with her for some 28 years) was deteriorating and than came the big slap ; she appeared to have cancer. Although we got thru very difficult times, she luckily recovered and looking back on that period ( some three years ago), I can only say that the relationship has grown , understanding between us have improved enormously .
I’m not saying that every relationship needs this kind of influx, but it helps you to get back on track and “observe” one and the other to see what maintenance needs to be given in what area.
If you’re not able to observe or evaluate the relationship, you may get some professional help ( psych) to help you out.
Just my 3 cts.

Ron

I choose to be with you even when I'm mad as all hell at you because you make me a better person."

Welcome to marriage:)

Yes Greg the troughs applied to all aspects of the relationship, the growth in the strengths was not linear, I think that quote above means you have answered your own question regarding working your way through the tough times, perhaps having children also helped, I wonder if things are different for childeless couples, as well as each situation being different.

Hope it works out for you.

Brian

Not so much relationship advice but more general emotional advice. As much as we think we do as we please we are creatures of habit as well. We follow behavioural patterns. Most patters are cyclical. I learnt that from quite a bit of therapy. The problem with cyclical patterns is each element drives the problem. So for instance if guilt was one of the elements that might put you under pressure which causes you stress and then the stress makes you anxious or irritable which makes you angry. That is just a possible example it could be completely different for you. The cycle goes round and round and you feel worse. The way to break out of these cycles is to try and remove one or more of the elements by coming to terms with them.

I would be wary of what I call ultimatum syndrome. This is putting to much emphasis of one person or thing to change over night. Firstly that is a very negative way of thinking and also you need to be open minded about the future. The problem with focusing too much on the bigger picture is it is unrealistic to think you can control everything that is going to happen. What you think you want now is not what you will want later so it helps to be open-minded. Baby steps.

Anyway I think I can emphasise with you. I wouldn't say my sex drive is low but I don't really feel I can be with anyone at the moment.

Oh i'm not married btw

I can only offer my experience, which is a much longer and involved than I'll subject you to here, with marriage.

My first marriage was a disaster from the start and shouldn't have begun in the first place, but that's another story. We thought we were in love. Had a child. Also had a miserable 4.5 years. The sex collapsed after the first...oh....week of marriage and everything else started to go to hell after that. All in all, a completly horrible experience and as you can imagine, a permanently scarring one. The continued decline in the sex, after the initial collapse, directly mirrored the difficulties in the relationship.

My second( current and last:D ) wife proved to me that I never really was in love before I met her...I never really had a relationship before her. We have a deep connection both emotionally and philosophically and spent most of the early part of our relationship just talking. The sex, by the way, has always been incredible...and it continues to get better. We just celebrated our 7th wedding anniversary in May and I could not, honestly imagine life without her. We have our spats just like any other couple, but communicate and work it out in short order.

All that to say that great sex is great, and bad sex sucks, but I believe that the quality thereof is a direct result of the emotional connection you feel with your partner (or their going rate:eek:...sorry:o ). A decline in emotional connectedness usually stems from other facets of the relationship. But remember that everyone has emotional cycles and to take a longterm analysis of behavior.

And the question has always been, IS there anything else that would be better???? And I honestly don't know. I have thought, will I be angry with myself, if 20 years from now, I feel I have settled for something not quite as wonderful as I'd hoped? Or will I be angry with myself if 20 years from now, I look back and believe I threw away the best thing I could have had in search for something that just didn't exist?


Greg, from what I hear about your situation, it sounds like you have a very good relationship, which may be in need of a few minor tweaks. Counseling is never a bad idea, in my book, whether it be individual or both of you. Being able to see clearly about an issue makes it that much easier to handle. If you have been asking yourself the questions Tess wrote, then it may be important to look a little deeper.

In my situation, I have settled for something not anywhere near as wonderful as I DESERVE. Hope has nothing to do with it. And my individual counseling has helped me see the issues I needed to work through to get to the point where I believe that. In fact, my quote on my posts is a reminder to me.

It's never an easy decision to break up a relationship, and shouldn't be taken lightly. All possible avenues should be pursued to keep it alive, if both parties are committed.

Lisa

My husband and I went through counseling many years ago, and it did help. But, I think the only thing that was "helpful" was that there was someone there who could control the situation just by being there. Some of the emotions and thoughts that are expressed in a session could trigger some volatile reactions and having someone there to keep everyone safe.... emotionally as well as physically.... and not let it spiral out of control..... that was perhaps the only thing I can say I appreciated about having a counselor there.

Personally, I don't need someone to ask me introspective questions... I'm quite good at figuring out what my root issues are. LOL... I'm a complex person to other people, maybe... but I understand myself completely. And, I'm intuitive enough to know what to ask my husband..... IF I want to know the answers, that is. :)

But, that's me..... others may have different experiences with counseling. I just never met one who had more insight into my relationship than I did.

In fact, my quote on my posts is a reminder to me.

Lisa

That's so funny.... my quote has a lot to do with the way I handle my relationship too....!

If the sex is faultering - try ten pints first and turn the light off.

Good luck with whatever you decide!

By that I mean talk to your partner about your concerns and go forward from there.

Having read through the thread again I can see that you have done this already so perhaps you'll allow me to elucidate.

I think people have different wants and needs. It seems that your partner is content with the relationship as it is and you are not. So you have to ask yourself, is what is missing a want or a need? That is to say, are you prepared to continue with the relationship without the element(s) you speak of? With love comes sacrifice, as you full well know. So, IMHO, it really depends on whether you are prepared to go without.

Kraj - I think you missed my point about communication.

You say your partner has been receptive and understanding when you have talked about this problem two or three times in the last year. That's good. But did anything change?

Next question: Communicate with YOURSELF. Go off into a corner and ask yourself WHY you feel as you do. Ask yourself WHY your sex is going down the tubes. What are you lacking? Having gone through some really intense therapy some years ago because of (herein unspecified) relationship problems from a time before I met my dear wife, I know that examining your own mind is the most painful action one can take when you have a problem. On the other hand, once you get past the muck-n-mire, the enlightenment can be nearly blinding in its ability to illuminate your life and choices.

I suggest going off into a corner to deal with this by yourself at first because at first you must clear your mind of distractions. (Why do you think that all psychiatrist offices are neutrally colored, conservatively decorated, and above all else QUIET?) At a later part of this process it will be more appropriate to bring in your partner. But at least at first, you must avoid even the slightest hint of distraction. Remember, your partner has a vested interest in you deciding you want to stay, so there is an immediate presumption of bias.

OK, so you are alone now, thinking. About what? The things that make you hurt, sad, or dissatisfied. Examine them. Compare them to past events that were similar but had a different effect. You say your sex was good before but not so good now. OK, compare current and past sexual encounters and ask the question, "What changed?" Until you can answer that question at an emotional AND intellectual level, you have nothing to discuss with your partner. Nothing at all.

In the final analysis, you have to ask the same question that many women must ask when considering whether they will leave their husbands. (I'm not suggesting which "role" you play here, just think of the raw question.) Are you better off with or without your partner? As long as the answer is "with", you have something to work on. The moment the answer becomes "without" then you have to figure out why.

Here's where I'll give you more direct advice. As you get older, your natural sex drive will diminish. The rate of diminution is different for us all, but the FACT of diminution is quite common. At some point you might find that sex has less meaning than companionship. And there is the "what will I think in 20 years" question become not merely important but CRUCIAL.

Kraj should now have a plethora of views / opinions to consider this weekend... :eek:

I wish you the best what ever you decide to do... :) :) :)

As you get older, your natural sex drive will diminish.
Isn't that why we have to get as much of it as we can while we're still young?:confused:

Just curious…

Does your partner know about this conversation?

Having been in a relationship for 17 years, that’s only motivation, was to raise our daughter, then to be in one where we share everything, first with each other.

I choose the one where we are our first confidants.

Just a thought.

Jsanders, that I believe is more than ‘Just a thought’ but really cuts to the chase.

At time of posting there have been 370 views of this thread. The OP might just as well have hired a hall, invited the press, stood on the stage and without his partners permission thrown the subject open for debate.

People can air their own problems in public but not those of their partners.

There is a problem here but I think it seems to centre on personal integrity and the respect we would expect from others.

And if anyone doubts my statement “The OP might just as well have hired a hall, invited the press, stood on the stage and without his partners permission thrown the subject open for debate” then they should think again because it’s already in the public domain.

Do a Google search on Kraj access and see what you get…and you don’t even need to be logged in.

Not to put to fine a point on it Kraj, but I wasn’t insinuating that you should not seek counsel; especially in this somewhat anonymous format.

I was simply wondering out loud about my own desires, and the blessing I have to be in a relationship where both of us confide in the other, about all our fears and desires.

I think that if people start out compatible then they will stay that way until some underlying conditions change it.

I sincerely hope you find your center on this one.

You should probably speak for yourself on both counts. I've known women with bigger sex drives than me. :D


True I suppose

Actually, I have to ask... for my own understanding....

You eluded to the fact that, for you, gratifying sex had a lot to do with a romantic connection. And, without that romantic experience, the enjoyment of the physical pleasures of a sexual experience is thereby diminished in your view? Have I misunderstood?

The reason I ask, is.... I'm trying to ascertain the root of the issue. Is it actually a sexual incompatibility, or is it the lack of emotional, romantic ties that is affecting the pleasure of the sexual experience?

Was it Groucho Marx that said "There's nothing wrong with my sex life - I pay good money for it"

Col

Colin, I don't know if that was Groucho or not - but it is definitely his style.

Next question: Communicate with YOURSELF. Go off into a corner and ask yourself WHY you feel as you do. Ask yourself WHY your sex is going down the tubes. What are you lacking? Having gone through some really intense therapy some years ago because of (herein unspecified) relationship problems from a time before I met my dear wife, I know that examining your own mind is the most painful action one can take when you have a problem.

I am so with you, Doc Man. Most problems in most relationships, no matter what ype of relationship, are caused by individuals being too afraid to look within. It's not easy, and it ain't pretty. But it is SOOO worth it.

Lisa

Not to put to fine a point on it Kraj, but I wasn’t insinuating that you should not seek counsel; especially in this somewhat anonymous format.

I was simply wondering out loud about my own desires, and the blessing I have to be in a relationship where both of us confide in the other, about all our fears and desires.


I'm really glad you clarified that. My first instinct was to point out that there are many situations where I find it extremely difficult to share my thoughts and feelings with others..... even my own husband.
Sharing such deeply personal information with someone you care for greatly can be risky. Especially if the other party may find your true thoughts and emotions hurtful or insulting or an outrageous assault on themselves. There's been plenty of times I've kept my thoughts to myself to keep the peace with my husband while I work through my feelings about the situation with a trusted friend.

while I work through my feelings about the situation with a trusted friend.

Isn't that what most women do though? ;)

Isn't that what most women do though? ;)
Whether most women do that or not, I don't find fault with it.

For those who are so intent on "sharing everything"
Sure, in a perfect, ideal world, which to me, is a FANTASY, I'd love to be able to tell my partner everything and anything and have no offense taken and no ire ensue. That's not the world I live in though!

Hell, it's not the world my husband lives in either. He's said some pretty honest, yet extremely hurtful things to me. They were deeply private thoughts that I wish I never heard. Some things, believe me, are better left unsaid.

Let me put out a fine point on it.... Let's say that my husband suffered some terrible accident that left him horribly disfigured. Am I going to tell this man that I love that the sight of him makes me ill? No way! Sometimes, your private feelings and thoughts WON'T make your partner feel very good about themselves. And, if you're extremely honest with yourself, I bet you can come up with at least ONE thing that you privately think that you would never share with your partner because they might feel hurt, insulted, betrayed, jealous, angry, offended, or rejected on some level.

Whether most women do that or not, I don't find fault with it.


I hope you don't think that I do :)

Once again, thank you all (except one person, I'll get to that in a minute) for your input, support, and excellent advice. There are some things I'd like to respond to and then some things I want to say.

Actually, I have to ask... for my own understanding....

You eluded to the fact that, for you, gratifying sex had a lot to do with a romantic connection. And, without that romantic experience, the enjoyment of the physical pleasures of a sexual experience is thereby diminished in your view? Have I misunderstood?
I'd say that's pretty accurate. Certianly sex can often (hell, even usually) be just about the physical thrill. But sometimes it's supposed to be about expressing the special connection you have. I can have a fun romp with anyone, but no one else can compare to the experience of being with the person I love.

The reason I ask, is.... I'm trying to ascertain the root of the issue. Is it actually a sexual incompatibility, or is it the lack of emotional, romantic ties that is affecting the pleasure of the sexual experience?
I don't think there is any lack of emotional ties. I believe he is still very much in love with me. If he's not, then he deserves an Academy Award.

About compatibility... er, folks: TMI Alert. If this forum had spoiler tags I'd use 'em, feel free to skip this paragraph. Anyway, sparing the gorey details as much as possible, when we first were together our sex life was very vanilla. Over time, he revealed to me his interests in various fetishes. I supported, encouraged and participated in them, but they never were my thing. It's not that I have anything against the things he's into, but they just don't do it for me like they do for him. No problem. Except that as time goes by there's pretty much no vanilla sex that I enjoy occuring and it's all about his interests. Eventaully, I just stopped trying. Consequently I have some fears that he has changed to such a degree that we're just not compatible anymore.

[/TMI Alert]

I think what ultimately concerned me was, as some people pointed out, that sexual problems are often indicitive of other problems. I think I'm worried that the shift I sense in the sexual area is a reflection of us growing apart in general.

The problem with cyclical patterns is each element drives the problem. [...] The way to break out of these cycles is to try and remove one or more of the elements by coming to terms with them.
This is a fantastic point, and it very much applies to me. I'm the type who tends to internalize things and let them bug me rather than express them and let go of them. For the little things, it's not such a big deal. But what ends up happening is the little things build up and make the bigger things seem huge. I'm still trying to get the hang of that balance between holding too much in and constantly ragging on him for every little thing that bugs me.

I would be wary of what I call ultimatum syndrome.
YES! That is the ultimate result of the pattern if I let it run its course. That's another thing I've tried hard to work on, which is expressing things that bother me in ways that give him a chance to respond rather than let it all build up until I just can't take it anymore.

Next question: Communicate with YOURSELF. Go off into a corner and ask yourself WHY you feel as you do.
Tess said it all:
Personally, I don't need someone to ask me introspective questions... I'm quite good at figuring out what my root issues are.
In fact, the way I typically handle a problem is to sit down and identify exactly how I feel and why and what can be done about it. Only then am I ready to communicate with someone. The very reason for this thread is that those answers are unclear and complicated in this situation, and I've been somewhat stymied.

In my situation, I have settled for something not anywhere near as wonderful as I DESERVE. Hope has nothing to do with it. And my individual counseling has helped me see the issues I needed to work through to get to the point where I believe that.
Lisa, this is a wonderful point and an excellent reality check.

Just curious…

Does your partner know about this conversation?
No. And why would he? It would completely defeat the purpose of having this conversation in the first place since it would basically just force me to have whatever discussion I might eventually have with him right now instead of on my terms in my own time.

And ChrisO: There are a great many things I would very much enjoy saying at this moment, but all I will say is the next time you're overcome with sanctimonious outrage over how I conduct my personal life, keep it to yourself. I came to this forum seeking help from friends, not unconstructive diatribes and insults.

I think people have different wants and needs. It seems that your partner is content with the relationship as it is and you are not. So you have to ask yourself, is what is missing a want or a need? That is to say, are you prepared to continue with the relationship without the element(s) you speak of? With love comes sacrifice, as you full well know. So, IMHO, it really depends on whether you are prepared to go without.
Excellent advice here, Dan, and I think it is closely related to Lisa's idea of the difference between what you hope for and what you deserve.

Sometimes a relationship might improve by some outside occurance, beyond control.
In my case, my relationship with my wife ( I’m with her for some 28 years) was deteriorating and than came the big slap ; she appeared to have cancer. Although we got thru very difficult times, she luckily recovered and looking back on that period ( some three years ago), I can only say that the relationship has grown , understanding between us have improved enormously.
I have had a similar experience as well, although our relationship is much younger. To keep an extremely long story short, three years ago my partner went into the hospital with stomache pain and nausea and he was there for five days but they couldn't find what was wrong with him. They ended up doing exploratory surgery to find out what was wrong (and to fix what they thought was a perforated bowel caused by a colonoscopy). When the surgeon saw him for the first time she assessed that he basically was a lost case and came out to the waiting room to give us the "your son is very sick" (aka "the person you love is about to die") speech.

They say that you never know what you have until you've lost it. That day I basically experienced losing him, but thankfully he recovered. I'll never forget how I felt that day.

So folks, my feeling on the situation is that the difficulties we have can be worked through and the relationship we have is more than worth working on. In fact, periods like this one notwithstanding, I think the things I'm feeling are missing from the relationship or not occuring enough to be fullfilling are things I can ultimately live without. There are so many things he does to make me fall in love with him over and over again. If there are things I feel unhappy about and aren't changing enough, I can push a little harder. But at this point there's nothing so bad happening that I'd be willing to give up the good stuff.

One other idea that springs to mind. It may or may not apply to you. It is controversial but many couples have found it works. Sometimes you can end up spending too much time together. The idea would be to peruse other interests in balance with seeing each other and make your time together better quality. By other interest I'm talking things that you want to do or try personal development if you like. This requires a certain amount mutual trust and security. Though sometimes you have over-dependant partners who use a relationship as an emotional crutch. Then they probably would resist such an experiment. I'm not suggesting for a minute this is like your relationship. More common is simply the incorrect assumption that if you go off and do your own thing you are somehow going to offend them or betray their trust in some way. Or even it could be down to habit or culture. Either way time apart could be used to build each other self esteem and engage in different social circles and hopefully this should make time together better quality and interesting.

Notice I said different social circles. There is often the wrong assumption when you are a couple that you must share all of each others friends. This goes against human nature. Like it or not some social circles don't mix particularly well on a prolonged basis. As a couple you are likely to have some slightly different preferences and interests when it comes to friends. There are going to be some friends that you both get on with well and other not so much. One of my closest friends was in a predicament. She dreaded spending time with her boyfriend’s friends. Her boyfriend also felt guilty leaving her at home even though she wanted him to go out. She had not made any of her own friends since moving to London with him. That was until she met me. She says she feels more fulfilled and confident in herself now she is able to hang out with the gang, and her boyfriend is no longer guilty about seeing his friends.

One other thing I learnt. Try to avoid using words and phrases like dwindling, deteriorating, spiralling, flame is gone. They imply an impending doom, with no way out. They call this catastrophising. Addressing negative though patterns is a big part of tackling anxiety issues. The reason why is these anxieties may make you act drastically in a way you might later regret. It’s a good exercise to identify you most common negative thoughts and fears then scrutinise them. How valid are they really? Even if they might be true could there be alternative explanations? Is it possible your are seeing the world through tinted glasses?

I would agree that you probably need more fair play in the bedroom, but as other have said it is more than likely an emotional thing.

It's definitely an interesting angle and probably one that most people wouldn't think of. I don't it's the case with us, though. I'd actually say it's more likely we haven't spent enough time together recently. I can elborate if anyone's interested, but I won't do so uneccessarily. ;)

Kraj, a couple of points to consider:

1st - regarding different social circles... Outside interests are how you keep your home life from becoming overwhelmingly boring. I play tennis and bridge. My wife is active in a collector's club and with the Red Hat Society. On the computer, I relax via RPG and 1st-person shooters. Wifey plays various solitaires and surfs the Internet for human-interest articles. Together, we dance, watch movies, shop for the house (an AWFUL lot of that since Hurricane Katrina), and visit with friends/family. Neither of us has to give up our individual activities to still be in love and to bask in our compatibility as we share our common events.

2nd - regarding the TMI segment... Let's not go into how I know this, but there is always the same question when one partner is into styles not shared by the other partner. The "vanilla" partner must always ask the question: Am I loved because of me or because I will play my partner's games and others didn't? In other words, does my partner love the games and I'm just an innocent bystander?

This is one helluva hard question to answer without somehow engaging the non-vanilla partner in a more directed conversation along those lines. And it is a painful question as well, because it goes way beyond the "thrill is gone" type of question. It reaches down into the "thrill was never really there" situation, and that is incredibly painful. You want the assurance that you are loved for yourself but you are terrified of the answer. And that terror occurs because of the old rule, "Don't a question for which you don't want to hear some of the possible answers."

3rd - I'm glad to know you had already engaged in self-contemplation.

The very reason for this thread is that those answers are unclear and complicated in this situation, and I've been somewhat stymied.


But if you still cannot find the answer within yourself, two possibilities remain: (1) You aren't finished with the examination (2) The answer isn't within you, but is external and thus not findable by self-examination. I can only observe that one of these must be true. There is no way to know which one. Only you can answer that one.

I wish you luck in finding the solution. But there is a sub-theme that I see in your responses. You don't want the relationship to end, yet you fear that in some ways it already has. You have to remember that life is based on CHANGE. Sometimes this change is in a good direction. Sometimes it is not. The only thing that is truly constant is death, and that is always in the past tense to truly be constant. So to hear that your relationship has evolved is no surprise.

It is now, and always has been, up to you to evaluate the survivability of the evolved product at every change along the way. Obviously, you have either decided to stay at prior critical points, or you have chose to not decide at all. But then, this falls into the old saw about "not to decide is to decide" and it also falls under the "you get what you accept, not what you deserve" rule.

Doc,

I completely concur on your comments regarding the TMI section.
I think I would feel EXACTLY like that. (The non-vanilla person's shoes)

Hi Kraj,

Interesting discussion.

Observation: You say that your sexuality is not relevant to the thread but the title was aimed at married couples? No matter.

In most aspects of life there seems to be a ratio of pleasure to displeasure. Generally, when things are 80/20 or better, the 20 percent of bad stuff is tolerable. If things get below 80% good, then it is time to start thinking about changing the situation somehow. Not necessarily by leaving, mind you, just somehow changing the dynamic, and if that means leaving, then so be it.

If you want to stay in the relationship (and it sounds like you definitely do) and be happy you need to tip your personal scale back over the 80% or whatever level you feel acceptable. This could be by accepting the lack of sexual satisfaction or by addressing it with a view to changing things.

As you seem pretty sure of the soundness of the relationship outside of the bedroom, it seems to me that it is time for serious communication with your partner. I haven't always been good at this in the past, and retrospectively I have recognized that an outside "honest broker" could have mediated a winning outcome to relationships that ultimately failed.

There are many self help books, "relationship therapists" (I have no experience of these), good friends, or "self-knowledge" courses. Some of these could possibly help and it would be for you to decide the most suitable route to take.

My marriage was pretty good but there was a background level of irritation, both ways. We went on a self knowledge course called "Landmark" (I think it would come under the category of "Neural Linguistic Programming"). The take away thing from that was honesty and knowing yourself, not trying to change others. Very useful, to us at least, and interesting although I would say it is not for everyone. Certainly cheaper than a therapist! Since then, the relationship has strengthened considerably but several children down the line, the sex is less frequent and more 'routine'. Might be time to do a bit of maintenance myself!

Best of luck with however you decide to deal with your situation.