Been quiet in here for the past several days. Is there a holiday I don't know about?:confused:

...or everyone just getting a little cranky?:D

There's just been so much anti-British sentiment here of late, especially from those we're trying to help, that there doesn't seem much point.
But don't worry, we'll be back soon:cool: :p

There's just been so much anti-British sentiment here of late, especially from those we're trying to help, that there doesn't seem much point.
But don't worry, we'll be back soon:cool: :p

and the reason that more Americans than British missing is????:confused:

and the reason that more Americans than British missing is????:confused:
They're not missing but now signing on as guests, I guess it's something to do with being ashamed :confused: :cool: :p

There you go again, Rich, tossing in the snide anti-American remarks. If there is anything I am ashamed of, it is that I know someone with such a terribly closed mind - you. And even more ashamed that apparently someone with such a terribly closed mind has such a great first name.

As to where I've been, I'm writing some new security code for a report that is part of a new federal (USA) system standard, NIST 800-53. When I get into that mode, I stay away from the forums more than normal.

Not to mention that now, a year after Katrina, our house is finally taking some shape. We now have floors down in all six downstairs rooms, four of those rooms have furniture, and we have schedules for delivery of another two or three different piles of goodies. Plus schedules for the final visits from the plumber, electrician, and building-codes inspector. Move-in date is less than a month away now.

So lately I've been doing some honey-do items. Like hanging blinds in three rooms last weekend. Haggling with the guys who failed to deliver our new TVs ('cause the old ones got verrrrry wet.) Raising hell with the insurers of the guy who recently totaled my wife's car - with her still in it. (She's OK, just muscle aches and pains, nothing broken.)

In other words, life has gone on.

Doc Man
Okay so I am a Brit but really glad to hear that your are getting your home back in some sort of shape. Pleased that the wife was only shaken and stirred.

Rich ....well he just enjoys tweaking tails...some people enjoy whisky others brandy...Rich tail tweaking.

But the bugger is good at it

From the sayings thread. "Don't let the buggers grind you down"

oh yeah It was a public holiday monday over here

Len

There you go again, Rich, tossing in the snide anti-American remarks.
Now why does the word paranoid with no sense of humour spring to mind? :confused:


If there is anything I am ashamed of, it is that I know someone with such a terribly closed mind - you. .

I don't have a closed mind thank you, I'm not an American in federal employment


And even more ashamed that apparently someone with such a terribly closed mind has such a great first name.

You needn't be ashamed on my behalf, freedom of thought is nothing to be ashamed of.
My name refers to my morals and not my financial standing by the way

As to where I've been, I'm writing some new security code for a report that is part of a new federal (USA) system standard, NIST 800-53. When I get into that mode, I stay away from the forums more than normal.


Like I said, a Fed. who can hardly not disagree with state philosophy, can he?

Not to mention that now, a year after Katrina, our house is finally taking some shape. We now have floors down in all six downstairs rooms, four of those rooms have furniture, and we have schedules for delivery of another two or three different piles of goodies. Plus schedules for the final visits from the plumber, electrician, and building-codes inspector. Move-in date is less than a month away now.


I'm glad you're able to return home, we ignorant Brits know that's not the case for countless thousands there. We also know that many insurance companies are hiding behind the small print with the full backing of your judiciary. However we still wish you well, we just wonder why the "most powerful" nation on earth has and is still, making such a hash of it?


OK as an after thought since you constantly accuse us of Knowing nothing about America, meet the Fockers is on the box, would this be a common name for Americans?

Good to hear things are trying to get back to normal for you Doc Man. I know a co-worker from LA who has had to drive back and forth numerous times in the past year to check on things. His family is all in LA, but not too many in New Orleans.

We're just getting rained on by Ernesto at the moment. Pretty lame for a tropical system really. I've seen worse depressions.

Rich, you were alive during the last depression in the early 1900s right? :p

Rich, you were alive during the last depression in the early 1900s right? :p

Yes I get depressed reading some of the replies by Bush supporters and it usually starts about 7pm :p

However we still wish you well, we just wonder why the "most powerful" nation on earth has and is still, making such a hash of it?

We saw GWB on telly the other day admitting that government resources and response could be better. Then the BBC showed the areas where you would think it only happened yesterday, nothing done at all, even smashed cars still there - as I said ages ago, if it happened in California it would have been sorted in weeks but because its mostly poor, black people. . . . .who cares. . . . not christian god loving GWB thats for sure.

Here's what The Mirror editorial said about GWB

30 August 2006
DUBYA'S RUIN
GEORGE Bush is guilty of criminal neglect since the destruction of New Orleans.
A year on from Hurricane Katrina and Washington has barely lifted a little finger to help, either economically or politically.
Tens of thousands of residents remain marooned in trailer parks, their homes and once-thriving districts left uninhabitable.

Empty promises of help and money have further tarnished the US President's reputation in the eyes of the world.

And if cowboy Bush is so callous towards US citizens in his Mississippi backyard, God help Iraqis and all the others he vows to bomb into freedom.

Been quiet in here for the past several days. Is there a holiday I don't know about? ...or everyone just getting a little cranky?

er - Americans get cranky, not the British;) Anyway, we're still here, just keeping a watching brief, but it seems that if Rich and I don't post, then the forum becomes somewhat static - presumably because unless prompted, the US posters have difficulty thinking of something to say;) :p

Col

...as I said ages ago, if it happened in California it would have been sorted in weeks but because its mostly poor, black people. . . . .who cares. . . . not christian god loving GWB thats for sure.Not that I have first-hand knowledge of the current status, (I'll defer to Doc's determination on whether or not this is an accurate assumption) but most of the people that have been complaining about the "lack of assistance" were indeed poor but they also had no insurance. So...the government is just supposed to rebuild for those who took no measures to protect their own? Many of those that were relocated, at governement expense, to Houston have decided not to go back. They have much better accomodations now than they had before (A.C., washer/dryer, etc.) but are concerned because they can't afford to stay when their governement assistance ends:eek:. I don't mean to get off on a rant here, but... I'm all for aid and assistance in the face of natural disasters, but there has to be a line drawn between disaster relief and welfare subsidies. It has been a year. Doc's well on his way to getting back to normal (glad to hear it, btw, Doc!) but it takes hard work and effort...those who put forth no effort deserve nothing in return. That's just common sense, not political rhetoric.
(now that I'm done hijacking my own thread again:o )er - Americans get cranky, not the British;)
no, you get cantankerous :p ...it seems that if Rich and I don't post, then the forum becomes somewhat static - presumably because unless prompted, the US posters have difficulty thinking of something to say;) :pCould be...I think they take you two a little too serious. I have an Uncle that, given any topic, in any conversation, will take the exact opposite stance from you in order to enjoy the argument... I basically see you two as the cantankerous Uncles of the forum and don't really take you seriously:D

So...the government is just supposed to rebuild for those who took no measures to protect their own?
Odd then that the US government pays billions to rebuild Iraq (via GWB getting backhanders to award contracts) yet the same government won't rebuild New Orleans poor folks places, because they had no insurance and didn't ask to be flooded out.
What did the government pay for the spouses of the dead after 11/9? I read $3 million for a dead spouse, no wonder so many who had rocky marriages were happy when their spouse bought it.
no, you get cantankerous :p not really, we just point out things you may have misunderstood - like the real facts.
Could be...I think they take you two a little too serious.
Thats an American trait generally I'm afraid. Americans take everything too seriously.

I have an Uncle that, given any topic, in any conversation, will take the exact opposite stance from you in order to enjoy the argument... Get him on the forum then. . . . . Rich and I never take the opposite view of everything, its just that the USA has such extremes - what appears normal to you, is alien to us. Like having an arsenal of guns. . . . .:confused: or nothing less than a V8 car.

Col

Yes I get depressed reading some of the replies by Bush supporters and it usually starts about 7pm :p

Don't confuse me for a Bush supporter. I'd never claim that title. :mad:

Odd then that the US government pays billions to rebuild Iraq (via GWB getting backhanders to award contracts) yet the same government won't rebuild New Orleans poor folks places, because they had no insurance and didn't ask to be flooded out.

Colin, I have to tell you that many of us here are asking similar questions. But government money is still available, it is just hard to get.

You must remember that Katrina devastated a densely populated area. The raw number of affected homes is staggering. When a few hundred homes are destroyed, it doesn't take that long to fix things up. For instance, when a creek overflows in Texas or Delaware, a small community of several hundred people is affected. But when the number of destroyed homes is more like a few hundred THOUSAND, it takes longer. You can talk about how long it takes to rebuild, but these are contributing factors that must be taken into account. (And where I can, I'll couch them in computing terms.)

1. There are only so many folks who are willing to come into a devastated area to do the work. You can talk about supply and demand, but this is really a lesson in queueing theory. When service demand is way up (which it is, in our area) and the number of available services is limited (which it is, in our area), processing time goes way up. Hence the delays.

2. The reason you can't bring in more people to do the work is that there is no place for them to say that is close. For instance, one of our contractor's sub-contractors drives in from Prairieville, LA, which is well over 100 miles away. We have folks who came in from Texas and are staying in very crowded conditions. You can't bring in more people because the motels and apartment buildings were just as badly devastated as private homes, so there is no place for them to stay. The tent cities are full. The FEMA trailers can't be used for contractors. They are available only for victims.

We allowed certain of our contractors to sleep in one part of our house for a while, but there are limits to whom you can trust that way. We have reached the point that we don't want anyone there but family. And not many folks allowed as much as we did.

3. The normal way to improve service availability is to increase the price you pay. But insurance companies set the payout rates and not many folks can afford to pay the differential. We didn't pay a differential but got started late. That is why we got the contractor we did. He was finishing some other jobs and we caught him sort of "between" projects.

4. A very big part of the problem for the densely populated areas is not that the houses can't be renovated (well,... actually, it IS the problem), it is WHY they can't get in to do the work. When the flood soaked the ground and stayed for so long, it affected lots of things - including sub-surface infrastructure. Some parts of town have no potable water coming through the water mains because of serious breaches therein. No gas lines. No sewage lines.

The utility companies have the same labor problem as everyone else, so they cannot replace the sub-surface mains and branches any faster than they are already going, and you can't replace such things in the wrong order. (Think bottom-up tree traversal...) An article on our local news suggested that we were losing 85 million gallons per day from the city-wide water system due to leaks that hadn't been plugged or otherwise blocked by closing valves. And of course, the news media will show the protest marches for the folks in the area that has no infrastructure. But you can't speed that up any more than it already is going because of lack of machinery, workers, and raw materials.

5. Supply and demand applies to home renovation products, too. For instance, our insurance adjust said that in a memo she had seen, some USA suppliers of things like sheet rock (dry wall) committed the entire output of their factories to Katrina and their estimates were that it wouldn't be enough. Again, queueing theory...

So yes it is going slow, yes the feds are slow to act, yes there are a lot of very frustrated people. But yes, there is progress in many areas.

The biggest stumbling block is, I think, that some people are suffering from a form of PTSD - post-traumatic stress disorder. And no, I'm not being even slightly facetious. Our local newspapers discuss this at great length, adding the comment that with the loss of other infrastructure, we have lost a lot of our physicians and psychiatrists to less devastated areas as well. The ones who are left ARE diagnosing PTSD in many cases. Perhaps the poor are caught in PTSD and don't know how to climb out of the "pit of despair" associated with the situation. But in this case, it is not necessarily due to being poor. It is due, literally, to being in a state of shock.

Hi Doc Man,

I remember reading reports that New Orleans was a crisis waiting to happen several years before the levees finaly failed. The city has been sinking for a long time.

I think everything you have said is fair and true but misses the point. Hard as it may seem, the city should not be re-built. Easy for me to say, I don't live there or have any connection to the place.

Spending money to rebuild something that will ultimately be innundated again is folly. I'm sure it is emotionally hard (an extreme understatement pehaps? - I'm not trying to belittle the situation or people involved) to accept that your home will not be reconstructed/repaired or indeed that it is completely worthless and unsaleable if it hapens to be you in this unfortunate position, but it doesn't alter the logic of the situation.

I think that large portions of the city have been declared 'no-rebuild' zones or whatever horrible buzzword has been invented for the situation. Residents of those areas may be agrieved, but they must also have closure - for them it is finished.

Those that are staying and trying to rebuild have a long road ahead.

It was horrible to watch the slo-mo disaster unfold on the 24 hour news channels and I was deeply affected by it at the time. The govermental failures were salt in the wounds as far as I could see. My sympathies to all thos that were affected (directly I mean, as opposed to newswatchers like me) and best wishes for the difficult road ahead, whether you are back in the Big Easy trying to rebuild or elsewhere trying to assembel a life from scratch.

Is there a holiday I don't know about?:confused:

Yes. Qatar national day - 3rd September. As we have the Friday/Saturday weekend here, everyone is off for the long weekend. :)

I know Qatar isn't the source of the majority of the forum posts (I have tried to change that, on a one man crusade basis! :D ) so I don't think that is where everyone is, but I thought you might be interested. Or not.

[QUOTE=Keith Nichols]Hi Doc Man,
I think everything you have said is fair and true but misses the point. Hard as it may seem, the city should not be re-built. [/
QUOTE]

I think that's the worst thing I've heard said about the situation. Towns are destroyed all the time by tornadoes, earthquakes, hurricanes, fires, etc...do you think we should never rebuild anything?

Oddly enough, you're not the first person I've heard say that, but the others I've heard say that have said it most likely for different reasons than yourself. They were close-minded self-proclaimed Christians who only seem to follow their religion when it's fit for them who thought the entire city was a city of sin. Someone tell that to the children who lost their parents in the hurricane or the parents who lost their children.

[QUOTE=Vassago
I think that's the worst thing I've heard said about the situation.[/QUOTE]

Vassago,

It's easy for me to say and think things like that as I have no emotional connection - and certainly no judgmental motive on the city's morals or otherwise. New Orleans is a city I always wanted to visit but never got round to. My opinion is based on a pragmatic outlook on things. And I am not saying it to be horrible to anyone - it was, and is, a terrible xxxxxx calamity to visit on a population.

On a purely practical level, it is nonsensical to build a city on soft ground, beside and below a lake and an ocean. Then to extract ground water and oil (is this still the case?), so that the city further sinks. Sure, if you have enough money, you can stave things off for a while, but the sea always wins in the end.

The canal (South Street Canal? - I can't recall now) is diverting millions of tons of silt and further exacerbating the the erosion of protective sandbars. I apologize if I am mixing up unrelated stories form the press here - this may be wrong)

Without massive and sustained effort and changes, external to the city itself, all the rebuilding in New Orleans will be wasted effort in the long run. The sand bars are all but gone and without allowing the Mississippi to meander and flow free, they won't be coming back.

Problems with the practicalities of rebuilding are akin to the 'deck chairs on the Titanic' problem. Fully absorbing for those involved but missing the larger and more important danger.

I'm sorry you found my opinion horrible. I can understand that it is unwelcome to those with an emotional connection to New Orleans. I meant no ill-will.

On a historical note, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of abandoned cities from history. They were abandoned when bad things happened - flood, drought, volcano, earthquake, environmental degradation, etc, etc etc. The only difference now is that we have technology and money to remain in unsafe places when common sense tells us to move on. Would you buy a house on the flanks of Mount St. Hellens?

Reference New Scientist and Scientific American (and elsewhere) for articles of the Threat to New Orleans in the 3 years prior to Katrina.

Edit - spell checker picked out calumny rather than calamity -Doh!.

[QUOTE=Vassago] ......They were close-minded self-proclaimed Christians who only seem to follow their religion when .....[QUOTE]

To leaven the mix a little, on what started as a humorous thread, let me tell you that I am a born again atheist. There is no religious angle to my opinion.

Don't confuse me for a Bush supporter. I'd never claim that title. :mad:
I didn't :confused:

[QUOTE=Keith Nichols]Hi Doc Man,
I think everything you have said is fair and true but misses the point. Hard as it may seem, the city should not be re-built. [/
QUOTE]

I think that's the worst thing I've heard said about the situation. Towns are destroyed all the time by tornadoes, earthquakes, hurricanes, fires, etc...do you think we should never rebuild anything?

Oddly enough, you're not the first person I've heard say that, but the others I've heard say that have said it most likely for different reasons than yourself. They were close-minded self-proclaimed Christians who only seem to follow their religion when it's fit for them who thought the entire city was a city of sin. Someone tell that to the children who lost their parents in the hurricane or the parents who lost their children.


vass,

i understand where you're coming from on this one - a big natural disaster comes and flattens a whole region and by rebuilding it is like sticking two fingers up at what caused the devastation.

however, i do agree with keith - if the city is rebuilt where it was it is only a matter of time before the leveees are breached once more. hurricane intesity levels are rising, global warming or not - this means that the chances of another massive hurricane hitting are increased...why risk the lives of so many people again and again?

we have had flooding problems in britian too, although never on that levels of new orleans. too many people on a small island and houses are being built on floodplains. one new theory is to try to return to the days of old - salt marshes are being created from farmland around the coast in an attempt to absorb flood water and to keep it away from where people live.

is it not an option to have new orleans residents re-sited and have the really low lying areas returned to marshland or whatever was there before the city grew up?

I didn't :confused:

It's hard to tell now because it seems like everyone in the UK thinks everyone in the US is a bush supporter. With his approval rating at an all time low, it should be clear this is not the case and even *gasp* republicans are disapproving of him more and more. Unfortunately, it won't be long before his hick brother tries to join the flanks in Bush's with bad speech problems and even worse common sense as president. If America votes one more Bush into office, I'm moving to Japan!

however, i do agree with keith - if the city is rebuilt where it was it is only a matter of time before the leveees are breached once more. hurricane intesity levels are rising, global warming or not - this means that the chances of another massive hurricane hitting are increased...why risk the lives of so many people again and again?


They are? Where are the category five storms for 2006 then? We barely had a category one finally last week, which quickly fell to Cuba's mountains.


is it not an option to have new orleans residents re-sited and have the really low lying areas returned to marshland or whatever was there before the city grew up?

Not really. Look at how much more populate the world is today. It was hard enough finding places for everyone who had to leave their home when the storm came through. Gas quicly ran out around the entire Southeast, even as far as where I live in NE Florida. Hotels out here were also at full capacity. Where would these people go?

Also, there's the fact that a lot of people who live in New Orleans do so because their family always has. They don't own land anywhere else and it's not so easy to just pick up and move.

They are? Where are the category five storms for 2006 then? We barely had a category one finally last week, which quickly fell to Cuba's mountains.


maybe later in the season. maybe in '07 or '08. but with a warmer gulf of mexico more storms will pick up more power - another really big one is just a matter of time. better to work with mother nature than take her head on.

Not really. Look at how much more populate the world is today. It was hard enough finding places for everyone who had to leave their home when the storm came through. Gas quicly ran out around the entire Southeast, even as far as where I live in NE Florida. Hotels out here were also at full capacity. Where would these people go?

Also, there's the fact that a lot of people who live in New Orleans do so because their family always has. They don't own land anywhere else and it's not so easy to just pick up and move.

the land ownership issue does strike me as being a big problem....not being familiar with US property law means i cannot understand the full implications of it. i really do not know how that could be resolved. surely in making the strategic decision of building more homes in safer areas such problems could be overcome.

I understand what Doc-Man is saying, and I know its difficult for us to comprehend the extent of the devastation.

However, what is amazing us over here (and I guess worldwide) is that the USA bangs on and on about how brilliant it is as a superpower, the worlds saviour :rolleyes: and how much they do to help suffering in natural disasters worldwide.

To an extent, I agree that the USA is very quick (usually) to get help to devastated areas (like the tsunami). Then we saw on Monday on the news that parts of New Orleans still looks like Katrina happened yesterday.

I just cannot believe that with all the muscle, power and resourses that the USA has, New Orleans worst areas should have at least been cleared. There is no doubt that GWB has failed badly over this and the USA is once again a laughing stock for having such a prat in charge

Col

the USA bangs on and on about how brilliant it is as a superpower, the worlds saviour :rolleyes: and how much they do to help suffering in natural disasters worldwide.

Col

I have never heard that speech. When was it made?

I have never heard that speech. When was it made?

Tess, I'm astonished that you missed it! We all joined hands and proudly screamed, "WE'RE #1! WE'RE #1! WE ARE A BRILLIANT SUPERPOWER, THE WORLD'S SAVIOR!" :rolleyes:

It figures that just because you give to help someone else, others think you are only trying to promote your own image. It's cynical people like that that make others afraid to try and help because of the backlash they might recieve. Truly a sad world we live in. :rolleyes:

This forum used to be fun! I think I'm giving it up. I've had it with all the political BS that every feels they need to voice. It seems like every chance certain people get, they have to bash another country by repeating the same BS over and over again on all parts of the world. How many times do you need to voice your opinions people! What's the point? Does it make you feel better? Can't we get back to being friendly toward each other and NOT talking about politics all the damn time?

So to stay on topic and answer the thread starter...that is why no one posts anymore. Because every thread they start, it turns into fully opinionated political propoganda. I would not bother starting another thread in this forum because it will only lead to the same shit.

Keith Nichols,

Your comment wasn't new to me. My response, were we face-to-face, would probably have gotten me arrested for assault. Fortunately, we are separated by distance so that I could not slap you silly. That gave me time to think about the "right" answer and treat it as an honest but misdirected comment.

1. If we take the "don't rebuild" attitude, then we must ALSO ask people to not rebuild in San Francisco, CA and Anchorage, AK (earthquakes). We must ask folks to move away from large portions of Oklahoma - including Oklahoma City and Tulsa, two fairly large cities, plus large parts of Kansas and southern Nebraska (tornadoes). We must ask folks to leave the coastline of southern California (mudslides). We must ask folks to leave Tampa & St. Petersburg & Orlando and Miami, FL (sinkholes) Actually, add Seattle WA and Portland OR to the mix (earthquakes). Now let's get New York, Chicago, Seattle, Buffalo, and Washington to move (killer blizzards). Leave behind the Pacific Northwest (flash forest-fires). Then there's Phoenix AZ, Albuquerque NM, Ft. Worth, Dallas, Houston, and San Antonio TX (killer heat waves).

You can't live anywhere that doesn't have SOME exposure to disaster. So do you cut and run or do you hunker down and rebuild? If you want to go elsewhere, WHERE will you go that DOESN'T have exposure to some sort of natural disaster? (And what do you think will happen to property values when everyone starts moving there? Who would be able to afford it?)

2. N'Awlins is the largest port in the USA by tonnage (though not by ship count or shoreline miles). To rebuild THAT kind of facility adds such a huge cost to the equation that the alternatives that you have to rethink the economics. Add to that the number of railheads, pipelines, and other shipping infrastructure. Then think about what you do to a nation's economy when you abandon their largest port facility.

What do you do in other ports that cannot take up the slack? How long will it take them to upgrade? What do you do with the pipelines, railheads, and such because you can't make the connection without rebuilding those facilities elsewhere - and what do you do in the interim? What do you do to the nation's economy by deciding to close the city and move elsewhere? You are quick to say "Don't spend the money" but you didn't stop to think that people have to live somewhere - so you will just spend the money anyway.

3. A large part of the problem was human negligence, not the disaster itself. The levees would have reduced the flooding had there not been massive failures of responsibility among the quality control engineers in the months after the levees were built or upgraded pre-Katrina.

The two worst breaches were caused by some basic hydraulics. a) Storm surge raised level of water in canals. b) According to Bernoulli's Principle, that means increased flow rate towards the drain point. c) According to sound principles of hydraulics engineering, that increased flow rate increases the pressure on the sides of the canal. Which increases the friction / drag values. (Solids call it friction; fluids call it drag.) d) The failures occurred at points where the increased friction undercut the levees because the clay used to build the foundation was deficient. In other words, sub-standard choice of materials that could have been - but was not - stopped by the inspectors. The above discussion isn't a guess or conjecture on my part. The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers published those findings in a report not too long ago, taking much of the blame on itself. And rightly so.

A separate "human failure" issue was that in a couple of areas, the pumps were allowed to stop working. (That's what got my house.) The local government did not ask for someone to stay with the pumps. Current studies indicate that if the pumps had been kept active, they would have reduced the flooding by such a large amount that my damage might have been limited to carpets and floors. But that isn't what happened.

Now the parishes are building "safe" houses for the pump engineers so they can stay during the storm and restart the pumps when needed.

4. As far as flooding goes, we had an article in the local news rag regarding why Sieur d'Iberville and Sieur d'Bienville (actually, Jacques and Pierre LeMoyne) founded the city where they did. They picked the first place up from the mouth of the river that WASN'T flooded out. It was the first place they could have built (and did build) a fort to control the river north of that point. Farther north, they might have built a better, more stable, and less floodable city, BUT it wouldn't have provided full control of the river.

5. To a certain degree, Keith, there ARE some areas where there is talk of a reversion to nature. Some parts that got 15-20 feet (yes FEET - over the tops of one-story houses and about waist-high in two-story houses) of water might indeed be too expensive to protect. But most of the city was NOT that way.

The problem with THIS approach is a variant on Eminent Domain. We are not allowed to take property from someone without paying for it. We (in this case, governmental "we") are not allowed to make decisions that negatively affect property values without just compensation. Abandonment of the repairs would certainly have that effect.

But the folks who are mostly affected by this were poor and didn't own their property anyway. They were renters or in subsidized housing. So who owns the land? The lawsuits and charges of racism have been abounding.

I feel I can safely assure you, the water was race-neutral. It was, however, NOT neutral with respect to physical elevation. The rebuilding efforts are still heading towards the worst areas, but as noted earlier, there is a massive infrastructure problem that slows down progress there. And that just happens to also be an area that was not racially balanced. Hence the loud squawking of the populace.

Very nice information Doc Man. I learned a lot from your description.

Tess, I'm astonished that you missed it! We all joined hands and proudly screamed, "WE'RE #1! WE'RE #1! WE ARE A BRILLIANT SUPERPOWER, THE WORLD'S SAVIOR!" :rolleyes:

I personally wear a banner every day to work proclaiming this. :rolleyes:

It figures that just because you give to help someone else, others think you are only trying to promote your own image. It's cynical people like that that make others afraid to try and help because of the backlash they might recieve. Truly a sad world we live in. :rolleyes:

Amen to that.

This forum used to be fun! I think I'm giving it up. I've had it with all the political BS that every feels they need to voice. It seems like every chance certain people get, they have to bash another country by repeating the same BS over and over again on all parts of the world. How many times do you need to voice your opinions people! What's the point? Does it make you feel better? Can't we get back to being friendly toward each other and NOT talking about politics all the damn time?

Another amen. It's pretty sad to me to think that there are people out there that are so consumed by bitterness that they aren't capable of discussing anything else. I've thought a few times about giving it up, and I don't visit as frequently (although the last couple of weeks I have as I've been working on an Access project). But I still keep coming back every couple of weeks to see what's going on. Sadly, every time I look in the exact same thing(s) are going on as have been for too long. I hope you stick it out and don't leave. We've lost enough good people already due to the insensitivities of a few. ;)

So to stay on topic and answer the thread starter...that is why no one posts anymore. Because every thread they start, it turns into fully opinionated political propoganda. I would not bother starting another thread in this forum because it will only lead to the same shit.

Yup. Not much more to say on that.

As always Doc Man, your post explains things very well. Sad that the people who need to read it won't, or won't bother to learn anything from someone who is actually close enough to the situation to know the TRUTH, and will just continue to make ill-informed, politically charged statements about the matter.

I'm just glad that you are getting on with the rebuilding process and hopefully will be back in your own home before long. :)

government money is still available, it is just hard to get

Sounds just like the UK ...............

This forum used to be fun! I think I'm giving it up.

A song springs to mind....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGFkR1KBG5E

I love you
Yeah
Babe, I love you so
I want you to know
That I'm going to miss your love
The minute you walk out that door
(Chorus)
So please don't go
Don't go
Don't go away
Please don't go
Don't go
I'm begging you to stay
If you leave
At least in my lifetime
I've had one dream come true
I was blessed to be loved
By someone as wonderful as you
(Chorus)
Hey, hey, hey
Yeah
Babe, I love you so
I, I want you to know
That I'm going to miss your love
The minute you walk out that door
So please don't go
Don't go
Don't go away
Hey, hey, hey
I need your love
I'm down on my knees
Beggin' please, please, please
Don't go
Don't you hear me baby
please don't go

Don't leave me now
Oh, no, no, no, no
Please don't go
I want you to know
That I, I, I, love you so
Don't leave me baby
Please don't go

It's hard to tell now because it seems like everyone in the UK thinks everyone in the US is a bush supporter.


No, no, we know exactly who his supporters are here, you're not on our list. ;)

With his approval rating at an all time low, it should be clear this is not the case and even *gasp* republicans are disapproving of him more and more.

Which is why he's playing the "terrorist threat" again:rolleyes:

If America votes one more Bush into office, I'm moving to Japan


You can't escape, there is no escape, you'll still see his mug on the screen :eek: :D

As always Doc Man, your post explains things very well. Sad that the people who need to read it won't, or won't bother to learn anything from someone who is actually close enough to the situation to know the TRUTH, and will just continue to make ill-informed, politically charged statements about the matter.



The TRUTH is Cindy that had Bush not been a meglomaniac, the National Guard would be in the area en-masse helping to rebuild your own country. How odd that we're branded as anti-American for saying so.

How odd that we're branded as anti-American for saying so.

Did I mention your name? ;) Or say anything about anti-American? And besides, the National Guard aren't builders. ;) :cool:

Did I mention your name? ;) Or say anything about anti-American? :cool:

No, but we've been accused of it so many times:(

And besides, the National Guard aren't builders. ;)

No but there's a hell of a mess that needs cleaning up first ;)

Keith Nichols,
Your comment wasn't new to me. My response, were we face-to-face, would probably have gotten me arrested for assault.

Doc Man,

Firstly, I doubt I would have made the comments were we face to face. Secondly, I assume you read my posts at least twice and I hope that if you did, you were able to see that there was and is no malice on my part.

A conversation where one party has a vested interest in things that affect their lives and the lives of all around them in a massive and traumatic way and a disinterested party taking an 'academic' (and perhaps ill informed) viewpoint is not really balanced. I am also lacking in local knowledge and so may be wide of the mark in several areas of my comments which will not help matters.

I was glad to read that you were progressing well with your re-building works and wish you well. I am very sorry, though on reflection, and considering the nature of my remarks, not overly surprised, that my comments have upset you and presumably others, whether they have a connection with New Orleans or not.

I don't have any direct interest or knowledge of New Orleans, nor involvement in the aftermath of Katrina. As my opinions are upsetting to those that do have a connection, I shall not post on this thread again.

Once again, I am truly sorry for any upset I may have caused.

While I am at it, I will apologize to all readers for diverting the thread from a lighthearted vein to something altogether more sombre.

A bit of perspective,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/04/in_pictures_flooding_in_cornwall/html/1.stm Pics


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/3571844.stm At the time


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/4133936.stm 1 year on

These are pictures of a flooded village in Cornwall England -2004. The flooding was caused by a intense and very localised storm in the moorland above the village that overwhelmed the river. The village was damaged not only by the shear volume of water but the movement of rocks in the 1 tonne + size that litterally rolled through the houses. Thanks to an daring and dangerous rescue mission by the local emergency services and RAF no one died. My point? Having been to this place on numerous occasions i followed with interest the TV series that documented it's rehabilitation. It's a tiny village with a few hundred homes and it took well over a year to put most of it right i can't see how a city the size of New Orleans could be rebuilt in a year no matter how much money or man power could be thrown at it.

K.

It figures that just because you give to help someone else, others think you are only trying to promote your own image.
Partially true Vass, the USA always gives help and makes damn sure the world knows it, yet I have always been complimentary to the USA for the speed and help it gives in helping people in natural disaters. Its just a shame it ignores its home grown disasters.
Experts have been warning for years of the potential catastrophic devastation that a category 4 or 5 hurricane could have on the Gulf Coast. And in Louisiana, local officials have fought for federal funding to implement hurricane defense plans that could have avoided the widespread flooding of New Orleans. But under the Bush Administration, funding for those projects has been continuously slashed, leaving the Gulf Coast unprepared for such a disaster. link (http://www.swingstateproject.com/2005/08/katrina_proves.php)


Think about this - the US government (and private donations) paid out $41BILLION in compensation for 11/9 victims, yet people witter on about the blacks are poor in New Orleans, don't have insurance so thats just tough. Look at this story from yesterdays paper. Its about one of the thousands of multi-millionaires created by the 11/9 payoutLink (http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/archive/archive/tm_objectid=17670382%26method=full%26siteid=62484-name_page.html)


What I was getting at was that the USA always makes a song and dance about doing something then there's huge embarrassment when it turns out to be rubbish. Like Rumsy said, the USA would capture Bin-Laden within 6 weeks of 11/9/01 - now its 5 years on and still not caught.

I have never heard that speech. When was it made?
Have you never seen this picture? (and Bush made sure it was beamed worldwide) after the USA bombed the hell out of Iraq - murdered thousands. . . . . . . . mission accomplished???

http://hammeroftruth.com/images/articles/461-mission_accomplished.jpg

I've had it with all the political BS that every feels they need to voice.
Get a decent President in would be a start. Try one who dislikes murdering people, doesn't take backhanders for contracts, is honest etc etc oh, and make sure they can read and speak properly:rolleyes:

I would not bother starting another thread in this forum because it will only lead to the same shit.What did you want to say?

Col

Woot!! Glad to see thing hadn't changed since
I left.

One more week folks, then I'm done!!!

Been quiet in here for the past several days. Is there a holiday I don't know about?:confused:



'Been out on a business trip last week, but what bothers me the most is that the sheriff is out of town

Quote from http://www.access-programmers.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=519802#post519802


Can we get higher-up's to check into this for us.


Most likely not, since the highest up is never here.




One more week folks, then I'm done!!!


Hi Selena, almost a cobol expert now ? ;)

Get a decent President in would be a start. Try one who dislikes murdering people, doesn't take backhanders for contracts, is honest etc etc oh, and make sure they can read and speak properly:rolleyes:

I couldn't agree more Colin, but why the HELL does everyone feel they need to post about this here? IN an ACCESS forum! A forum where we used to NEVER talk politics. What good does it do?



What did you want to say?

Col

I was recommending that the thread starter not start another thread, because someone will just come along and kill it anyway...

I couldn't agree more Colin, but why the HELL does everyone feel they need to post about this here? IN an ACCESS forum!
This is the area for any discussion isn't it?

A forum where we used to NEVER talk politics.
Thats true, but I think that went out the window when GWB started his meglamanic world domination crusade, started killing innocent people and made things a whole lot worse than it was.

What good does it do?
Maybe the USA folks will vote in someone really good next time. Could you imagine it in here if the USA voted in Jeb as Prez?

Clinton was good (comparatively) why not get someone like him next time?

Col

A forum where we used to NEVER talk politics.

That was a long time ago when you were posting frequently and before Bush and Bliar screwed up the world

What good does it do?


If we don't make our feelings known then politicians will get away with whatever they like


Anyway it's the ancient Geeks fault, they started political discussion

Anyway it's the ancient Geeks fault, they started political discussion


I think that was the point Vas was trying to make.

If we don't make our feelings known then politicians will get away with whatever they like

So what good does it do to post it in an Access forum? All it has done here is spoil the once-friendly atmosphere. I can see why many people don't bother to post any longer. All threads are about only one topic. How dull.

If we don't make our feelings known then politicians will get away with whatever they like


Hi ya'll

Just came over to say how much i love reading Rich's posts. He's right ya know, we leaders of the free world love this forum, we can't get enough of it, damn my whole foreign policy is based on what Rich says i shouldn't be doing.

To the rest of you sorry he makes this place so darn crap for you but hell as long he's enjoying himself and providing such valuable insights for me who gives a damn.

Don't forget to vote :D

George W Bush.

All threads are about only one topic. How dull.
Well who got out the wrong side of the bed this morning? :p

Now here's a brief list of threads in the cooler for you, Vass and everybody else that cares to read, where there is no mention of America or politics :cool: :p

http://www.access-programmers.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=113906
http://www.access-programmers.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=113599
http://www.access-programmers.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=113858
http://www.access-programmers.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=113545
http://www.access-programmers.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=113180

Now where's the evidence for these unfair charges against US! and why do Americans hate talking about politics? :confused:

Well dang me Bushy buddy, where d'all come from.

Seems like you have the sense to at least read the forum even though you do the opposite whilst your puppet Blair just goes along in his own world. Carn't you tell him to pop in and pay attention. I tried emailing the him but he doesn't reply

L

I think that was the point Vas was trying to make.

There are no ancient Geeks posting on this site:cool: :p

So what good does it do to post it in an Access forum? All it has done here is spoil the once-friendly atmosphere.
Oh I don't know - there are several members with whom I am friendly towards.:D ;)

People chat and PM each other behind the scenes and also chat on the dog and bone (phone)

Col

Well dang me Bushy buddy, where d'all come from.

Seems like you have the sense to at least read the forum even though you do the opposite whilst your puppet Blair just goes along in his own world. Carn't you tell him to pop in and pay attention. I tried emailing the him but he doesn't reply

L
:D :D :D :D

All threads are about only one topic. How dull.
I have tried on several occasions to have an intelligent meaningful discussion, but upon mentioning the USA, some of our American colleagues appear oversensitive and assume you are "getting at them":rolleyes: which of course is totally outrageous.:rolleyes:

What Rich and I strive tirelessly to do is to try to keep the US posters informed of current thinking outside of the USA borders, where there actually is a wider world.

Its a thankless task, but we feel confident we will eventually get through so that you (Americans) can vote in a really nice chap (or lady) we all love.

Col

I have tried on several occasions to have an intelligent meaningful discussion, but upon mentioning the USA, some of our American colleagues appear oversensitive and assume you are "getting at them":rolleyes: which of course is totally outrageous.:rolleyes:

What Rich and I strive tirelessly to do is to try to keep the US posters informed of current thinking outside of the USA borders, where there actually is a wider world.

Its a thankless task, but we feel confident we will eventually get through so that you (Americans) can vote in a really nice chap (or lady) we all love.

Col
Ha ha ha very funny

Ha ha ha very funny
Why don't you be a real person and show where you are posting from instead of hiding behind geographic anononimity.

Col

There are no ancient Geeks posting on this site

Rich, to be fair and honest, I must admit I have been accused of both attributes at different times in my life. Though it is not true that I'm older than dirt. It is just that dirt and I are on a first-name basis. Is that old enough to qualify as ancient? And as for "geek" - I could easily be mistaken for a member of the "Geek Squad" - a division of the Best Buy chain that does high-tech repairs. Except that I do that sort of stuff for the government, not for Best Buy.

Keith Nichols - your apology is accepted and in fact you weren't the first person who ever voiced those concerns. One of the USA senators from a northeastern state said it within a month of Katrina's passage.

You are right that I have a vested interest in my home. Which is why the initial feelings of anger. Don't worry, they have long since passed. Besides which, you are right that there are PARTS of New Orleans for which the idea of rebuilding is just not going to be feasible without a LOT more money than anyone has handy at the moment.

The other comments I made, about how the cost of RELOCATING the port facilities must be used to balance the REBUILDING side of the cost equations, is where I urge you to rethink your logic. If you take that counter-cost into account, I believe there is where your statement betrays a certain "off-handedness" - i.e. not a lot of thought about the ramifications. Which is why I stepped back to explain the problem.

If you remember that everybody has to live and work somewhere and that it is illegal to take land without compensation (and that in the USA, it counts as a "partial taking" to make a decision that limits land use), then build yourself a comparison chart. Look at the cost to rebuild vs. cost to relocate. When you do that, consider factors such as

1. Roads and rights-of-way
2. Bridges and rights-of-way
3. Pipelines, power lines, and rights-of-way
4. Rail terminals, rail yards, airports - and rights-of-way
5. The largest port in the USA by tonnage
6. Factories & refineries that process raw minerals at point of entry.
7. Business offices for everyone dealing with above
8. Housing for same.
9. Schools, hospitals, libraries, theaters, etc.

OK, now factor in that not only do you have to obtain new land for all of the above, which means eminent domain for the public stuff, but you also have that little "fringe" of eminent domain that deals with deprivation of usage for the private property previously applied to the above.

Oh, just to add chaos... change everyone's addresses while you are at it. What do you think would happen if the UK post office had to completely update all addresses for a single large city with a population in excess of 400K residents, about 100K families? Can you say... total chaos?

Wait, I've got it.... in line with Rich's continual conspiracy theories, Hurricane Katrina is a terrorist plot.

Wait, I've got it.... in line with Rich's continual conspiracy theories, Hurricane Katrina is a terrorist plot.

Whoah there old man, I've never supported conspiracy theories, just incompetence of those who are supposed to lead

Hi Selena, almost a cobol expert now ? ;)

I wish....:rolleyes:

Why don't you be a real person and show where you are posting from instead of hiding behind geographic anononimity.

Col


London England, how exactly does that help?? Sorry if i don't share your disgust of all things American, and before you say "I don't hate the American people only their president blah blah blah" tell it to someone who cares.

To the Americans on here, I’ve used these forums for the better part of six years and all i can say is the continued sniping and ill disguised bigotry by a vocal minority of English posters does not represent the feelings of a least one of us. It's sad that what was once a good place to be has been degraded and soured but i feel unfortunately that if it wasn't the original intention it is now. I don't know how many more ways people can say we're sick of it, it's pointless, puerile and pathetic.

It says a lot Colin that you feel the need to know where i come from in order to have a dialog with me. Do you really set that much store by a person’s geographic location? Does everyone have to wear a label? What pigeon hole do i fit into? Does this help, 30+ yo, conservative (small c), working class, degree educated, professional, married, well travelled, deist. Welcome to geographic apartheid.


K.

Feel better now?:rolleyes: I see no reason to justify myself to you.

So you've used these forums for 6 years? 104 posts is not exactly a large amount, in fact its just over 17 posts per year. Perhaps when you've reached a reasonable amount then you can be in a better position to be critical.:rolleyes:

Col

Could somebody help me please?

I notice in this particular thread There seems to be some discord.

I have noticed the exchanges between the English members of the forum and the American members of the forum, and I always thought that it was good humored Banter.

From an MS Access point of view I value the input from everyone here, whatever your background.

So what I need help with is, has the good humored banter turned sour? Or has someone got just the wrong end of the stick?

Feel better now?:rolleyes: I see no reason to justify myself to you.

So you've used these forums for 6 years? 104 posts is not exactly a large amount, in fact its just over 17 posts per year. Perhaps when you've reached a reasonable amount then you can be in a better position to be critical.:rolleyes:

Col

Funny that, as you seem to think everyone else needs to justify themselves.


So, not only geographical apartheid but your not allowed an opinion unless Colin says you've been here long enough. You talk about censorship and hypocrisy and not justifying your actions but you can't help applying the double standard. I'm more than happy for people to judge my comments against the state of this forum and i stand by them, i wonder how many of the Americans think i'm wide of the mark? Exactly why do you think this user name is the one i started with? I don't actually set any store by an on-line identity it's pointless as you could be anyone, it's an alter ego and ego is the operative word, look at me everyone, look at all my posts. I've evolved mine as i have changed, right now i come on here to try and help people - i think you'll find the vast majority of my posts are trying to answer question. The people who ask questions neither need to know and i doubt they care that you've been posting shite in the watercooler for eons they just want help. You may set store by ColinEssex but that says it all really.

all i can say is the continued sniping and ill disguised bigotry by a vocal minority of English posters does not represent the feelings of a least one of us.
K.


George Bush doesn't represent America, oops silly me, yes he does.:rolleyes:

So what I need help with is, has the good humored banter turned sour?

It wasn't ever good humored, which is what the problem is. All topics end up being about GWB and why America is bad (oh, but not Americans, mind you :rolleyes: ) and I know personally of at least three long-time posters who rarely come here any longer because of it. A couple of others (including myself) have thought of giving it up.

George Bush doesn't represent America, oops silly me, yes he does.:rolleyes:

Case in point. :(

and I know personally of at least three long-time posters who rarely come here any longer because of it. A couple of others (including myself) have thought of giving it up.
Fortunately its not a duty bound thing to use the discussion forums.

Exactly why do you think this user name is the one i started with?

I have absolutely no idea, but being as you are such a long term member, you will recall there was a thread a few years ago which discussed the origins of peoples login names. It was quite interesting.;)

and I always thought that it was good humored Banter.
and it is, there was an occasion recently when Ken and I (we were both bored) and staged a verbal fight, we planned the whole thing - we decided to stop it because too many people thought it was for real:D there's alot of behind-the-scenes communication between UK and USA members.;)

Col

and it is, there was an occasion recently when Ken and I (we were both bored) and staged a verbal fight, we planned the whole thing - we decided to stop it because too many people thought it was for real:D there's alot of behind-the-scenes communication between UK and USA members.;)

Col

Did the same thing myself a few years ago except

It was in a meeting room face to face
The meeting room was adjacent to a general administration area
It was the Admin Manager on opposite side of table

Man did that go with a bang...to say the least.

Shall we say both fully entered into spirit of things

It was a real stand up, shout, shake fist, slam door act

Fantastic reaction.... was talked about for days

Neither of us work for the company now ...but thats a different story

L

Fortunately its not a duty bound thing to use the discussion forums.

Unfortunately, it seems to be a duty bound thing for a few to ruin it for everyone else.

and it is, there was an occasion recently when Ken and I (we were both bored) and staged a verbal fight, we planned the whole thing - we decided to stop it because too many people thought it was for real:D there's alot of behind-the-scenes communication between UK and USA members.;)

How interesting. I've received a somewhat different story behind the scenes from a few people.

Case in point. :(
You miss the point here Cindy, I could equally, and frequently do, have said Tony Bliar :eek:

You miss the point here Cindy, I could equally, and frequently do, have said Tony Bliar :eek:

No, I didn't miss the point. You said George Bush. :(

No, I didn't miss the point. You said George Bush. :(
I know, I keep having nightmares about the guy too, however, there is hope, Hillary's popularity is on the rise:cool:

I know, I keep having nightmares about the guy too

Maybe you should see a therapist. :cool:

Maybe you should see a therapist. :cool:
oddly enough, my exact thoughts about the guy in question :cool: :p

oddly enough, my exact thoughts about the guy in question :cool: :p

You're the one who's having nightmares. :cool:

You're the one who's having nightmares. :cool:

But he is a nightmare, no therapist can cure that:cool:

But he is a nightmare, no therapist can cure that:cool:

Neither can we, but you don't have a problem talking to us about it. :cool:

Neither can we, but you don't have a problem talking to us about it. :cool:
That's because you're more sympathetic :cool:

That's because you're more sympathetic :cool:

Maybe two years ago we were. ;)

Maybe two years ago we were. ;)
What's happened since, baby blues maybe? :confused: