I'm not a prude.
Let me start out by saying that right up front.
I think you (well, most of you) know me quite well enough that you know that is true.

But, when a woman, or even several women, are in the company of men, talking, laughing, engaged in conversation with said men.... is it rude, when another woman or girl walks by, for all the men to stop the conversation and turn to ogle the passing female?

It could be me... I know...
But I just think it is horribly rude.:mad:

I'd really like to know what other women really think about that... I'm sure we've all been in that situation before. And then the guys can chime in and call me a prude. :rolleyes:

What was she wearing? Was she cute? Would you gawk at someone like Johnny Depp suddenly in that situation if it were opposite?

Sorry, did you say something?

Just kidding around -- it's a bit insensitive, I suppose. Would've had to have been there, though, to gauge the degree... Did they also whistle and say things like "Mamma Mia" or "Hamanahamanahamana" or "God help me!" If so, that's a higher degree...of something...

But, when a woman, or even several women, are in the company of men, talking, laughing, engaged in conversation with said men.... is it rude, when another woman or girl walks by, for all the men to stop the conversation and turn to ogle the passing female?

Yes, it's rude. :D I take it you're speaking from personal experience.? :(

Would you gawk at someone like Johnny Depp suddenly in that situation if it were opposite?

We would be discreet. ;)

I think it's rude and absolutely unacceptable, but i've gotten so used to it that i've actually caught myself ogling along a few times also :o (esp. if she's wearing something catdamn sexy) Imagine being raised in a house with 6 brothers! You are forced to check out all the bootey and mamaritas along with the dudes. And now im the only female in my dept, when we go out together-the guys here can be very unprofessional :rolleyes: even when they pretend to be. guys are stupid! chics rock!http://access-programmers.co.uk/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

What was she wearing? Was she cute? Would you gawk at someone like Johnny Depp suddenly in that situation if it were opposite?
I think girls are different.
How many times have YOU been in a situation that the girls gawk?
I can bet you MUCH less... if any times at all... than your average woman has experienced this.

I work in an atmosphere similar to what you describe. IT in our organisation is largely male dominated. I would expect the average age is mid 40s. The first time I saw this happen I was amazed. They broke off in mid sentence, drooled, then picked up the sentence as if the hadn't stopped. I asked them about it and the looked at me as though I was weird.

My background is that I came over from the business side and have worked with/managed many of these workplace honeys. The others have always been in IT and are not used to seeing woman unless they are looking at a magazine.

Last week I did notice something quite odd we were in discussion when a stone cold fox sauntered past no one paid her much attention. She then walked past again and tripped a little and everyone turned and was delighted to see her.

I went to see her later (I worked with her for 3 years) and asked her why she walked past twice. She told me that no-one seemed to notice her the first time so she'd walked past and stumbled to make sure that they would notice her and her new 'bingo' top (her term. Means a low cut top which encourages - the top not the person - 'eyes down').

I'm not condoning anyone’s behaviour and would suggest that she would be in the minority. Maybe people could wear badges to let others know if it's ok to ogle them.

Overall, I don't like it but I would like to hear more from MsLady about her ogling experiences. Just so we can get a more rounded view on things.:D

Its quite normal in Essex. In fact, the girls / women often dress to get the desired effect.:eek: If men don't perv over them then in the eyes of their mates, they have failed.:rolleyes:

http://205.212.167.2/ladylove/hens-night-ideas.jpg

Col

That girl can't be from Essex (got family in Church Langley, Harlow).

Where are the white high heels, the Burberry cap and the double buggy covered in cigarette ash.:D

If there is no romantic connection between the original group of males and the original female, it is not rude. As the males are expressing lust and desire for another female, the shun should only be perceived if the female in question secretly harbors desires for one of the ogling males and therefore, subconsciously, senses competition from the ogled female.

...something you forgot to tell us Tess?:D

If there is no romantic connection between the original group of males and the original female, it is not rude.

It's not rude to break off your conversation with someone to look at someone else? :confused:

I would say it's a little rude. Not a punishable offence, but a little rude. :D

It's not rude to break off your conversation with someone to look at someone else? :confused:
no... Assuming they don't leave the little congregation to chase down the female in question and at least have enough common sense to not create an extended pause in the conversation. But perhaps the basis for the perception is where the quandary lies?

I agree with Bodisathva... if there is no connection with the group then no it doesn't matter. If im talking to a bunch of girls, yeah they turn around if a good looking guy is walking past...and i do too :-). Its also the same if im chatting to a group of guys...i just find it funny... especially as most often they have no chance with the girl anyway. If i had feelings for one of the guys i was talking to, then i guess it would bother me...or if i was talking to my boyfriend and he did it...then there would be trouble :)

U should admire their honesty , a good looking girl is a good looking girl.

They don't have to know what car she drives , if shes a doctor or how much she gets paid to know she is attractive.

Also you should admire that, they will tell each other of the opportunity to share a glimpse of a good looking girl. Truely selfless.

no... Assuming they don't leave the little congregation to chase down the female in question and at least have enough common sense to not create an extended pause in the conversation. But perhaps the basis for the perception is where the quandary lies?

You highlighted in red the word look. It's not the looking that I would care about, it's the total pause in conversation as if nothing else matters at that moment that I would consider to be rude. I mean, EVERYBODY looks. ;)

You highlighted in red the word look. It's not the looking that I would care about, it's the total pause in conversation as if nothing else matters at that moment that I would consider to be rude. I mean, EVERYBODY looks. ;)
There's not usually a pause between the conversation and the "phwaar!! look at that":rolleyes:

Col

There's not usually a pause between the conversation and the "phwaar!! look at that":rolleyes:

Speaking from experience? :cool:

Besides, the "phwaar!! look at that" is a pause in the conversation. Just not a silent pause. ;)

Speaking from experience? :cool:


As I have mentioned before - the British culture for a night out amongst younger people (especially girls) is to pour as much alcohol down their neck and get bladdered as quickly as possible and to end up either in the gutter / in "bed" with someone or in jail sleeping it off.

It is more common on a friday and saturday night and I would suggest a trip to any town centre (especially Colchester) will show this as being true.:rolleyes:

Col

As I have mentioned before - the British culture for a night out amongst younger people (especially girls) is to pour as much alcohol down their neck and get bladdered as quickly as possible and to end up either in the gutter / in "bed" with someone or in jail sleeping it off.

I'm sure some of that goes on about anywhere. :rolleyes:

I used to know some people like that back in my younger days...

I asked my wife and she said she doesn't find it rude. She said she noticed that I never look at other females even though she looks at other people, guys and girls, not necessarily because of lust as stated earlier in the thread, just because you can't help but notice some people I suppose.

So, I stand by my statement. I don't find it rude. You don't actually even know WHY they looked. How do you know they looked because of lust? Maybe they are secretly transvestites who wanted to know where she shops? Just saying....

As a girl (checks pantaloons to make sure...yep, still a girl) I think it can be annoying, but honestly I think men are hardwired that way. Kevin Pollack has a funny routine about how someone could walk by bouncing a stick with boobs on it and every man would be compelled to look.

Some folks (male and female) are so astonishingly beautiful that they take your breath away. I would turn to look at any of those. However, if a group of men can't finish a coherent sentence because they constantly stop to ogle anything with XX chromosomes, then it's a problem.

I also agree with posters who point out that some women dress in such a way that Stevie Wonder would stare. I once went to a play with a man I was newly dating. A woman excused her way down our row to her seat, as you do. She was so tall, skinny, beautiful, and put together that it was like she was another species. She had incredibly long legs and was wearing a miniskirt, high heels, etc. etc. To his credit, my date kept his eyes focused straight ahead and was very obviously not looking. So I waited until she was out of earshot, leaned over and whispered "Do you suppose those go all the way up?".

some women dress in such a way that Stevie Wonder would stare.
:D :D :D
had a chuckle at that one

I sympathise with your bf, I've been in similar situations...

The secret is to maintain the conversation WHILE ogling the girl.

C'mon guys, multi-task.

:D It's in our DNA...can't change that!

It's in my DNA and yes, I've been scolded for it by my girlfriends in the past but ironic that I absolutely remember the reverse being true as well so it fits us all...the only fair comment...

In our defense, it's not done to be rude if that helps at all but we're only human and some people have made the perfect point...if some guy walked by you while you were talking with a group of friends, and was whatever the kind of guy that attracted you, wouldn't you look...come on...in any case...Venus and Mars, just like the book written...peace!

I think you can look (in glances) and be discreet about it.
You don't have to make it a big issue.
What I have a problem with is that they (the guys) make us (the women) seem LESS than desirable if they all stop to ogle and converse about the passer-by, in the middle of a conversation with the group.

Women, I have to say, in my experience, just don't DO that.
Sure, if it's just the girls, we may... MAY.... if some EXTREMELY attractive man walked by, make a comment. But, if we were in mixed company? No.
I still think it's rude.

But we DEFINITELY don't eye everything that passes. In fact, I think that a woman's perception of what is attractive in a male varies SO much from woman to woman, and we all (women) know it. It goes far beyond the physical with us. (Unless I'm just completely weird.) But for me, it's not about the physical. Yes, yes, yes... physical plays a part, I admit. However, personality plays such a larger part in what I find attractive in a man.

This is how I can be completely enamoured by the likes of Kraj and Col at the same time... lol.
There are parts of their personality that I simply adore. They both share the sense of humor, which is a HUGE boon. One is more sensitive, one is more cynical, and yet both are introspective and don't just go with the mainstream, "programmed societal propaganda".... lol... although one is more apt to be aggressive and a little rough... but that's just a defense mechanism which I can totally see through... and the other is more willing to be vulnerable, which makes me just a tad weak in the knees...:o

Oops... I think I got off subject! Uh.... anyway. Yeah... uh... if you are in my presence, I'd really appreciate it if you didn't show me any disrespect by looking at other women and making comments. It makes me feel bad about myself. It's as if... sigh... I just don't have enough to keep your attention. I simply feel it's discourteous. Again... maybe it's just me. But I'd appreciate the respect.

This is how I can be completely enamoured by the likes of Kraj and Col at the same time... lol.
There are parts of their personality that I simply adore. They both share the sense of humor, which is a HUGE boon. One is more sensitive, one is more cynical, and yet both are introspective and don't just go with the mainstream, "programmed societal propaganda".... lol... although one is more apt to be aggressive and a little rough... but that's just a defense mechanism which I can totally see through... and the other is more willing to be vulnerable, which makes me just a tad weak in the knees...:o


Bloody hell Tess:o ;)

*reminder to self* must check out flights to Florida:D ;)

*another reminder* must look on map and see where Florida is

Col

.. if you are in my presence, I'd really appreciate it if you didn't show me any disrespect by looking at other women and making comments.


Can you post a recent pic Tess and we'll promise to have a look and make comments. :D

*another reminder* must look on map and see where Florida is




It's here Col :

http://www.floridian-realty.com/bghomes5g.jpg

Bloody hell Tess:o ;)

*reminder to self* must check out flights to Florida:D ;)

Col

I don't think they'd let us in Col:eek: ;)

Tess I think this quote from your first post is key to the discussion here,
But, when a woman, or even several women, are in the company of men, talking, laughing, engaged in conversation with said men.... is it rude, when another woman or girl walks by, for all the men to stop the conversation and turn to ogle the passing female?

if a group of friends/colleagues are out having a good time then I think its probably ok, it can go OTT but should be Ok, if you are out on a date then its a no go big time. There are likely to be other formal scenarios when it is impolite also, but men and women are different, and vivre la difference

Brian

It's here Col :

http://www.floridian-realty.com/bghomes5g.jpg
It looks flooded:confused: or do people paddle around in boats

Col

Bloody hell Tess:o ;)

*reminder to self* must check out flights to Florida:D ;)

*another reminder* must look on map and see where Florida is

Col

WHAT???? Everyone here knows I love you. It's not a secret!
And, Florida is directly in the path of any hurricane that makes it to Cuba.
Should be easy enough to spot. :)


Can you post a recent pic Tess and we'll promise to have a look and make comments.

Tempting... oh, so tempting. But I think I'll pass for now... lol.
The old-timers here know what I look like anyway. ;)

The old-timers here know what I look like anyway. ;)
Not sure I like being referred to as an old timer, but the word divine springs to mind;)

I don't think they'd let us in Col:eek: ;)
It's where a certain Bush family comes from, isn't it? :p
(or just their cousins & uncles?)

Being an old hardware coot, I would say if the woman was good-looking enough or exuded enough pizazz, the men probably had their "sexy lady" interrupt raised. Men can't ignore hard interrupts in such cases. (One of those "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" things.) You can tell just how hard the interrupt was by a sudden reluctance of the man to face any women in the group without first putting his hand in his pocket for a bit of camouflage. ;)

If the conversation was casual enough, the fact that the men paused but continued the conversation is good. To ME, it means that the women in the group were being accorded one of the highest honors a group of guys can offer - being "one of the guys." If the guys were uncomfortable with the women in the conversation group, they would have perhaps avoided the interruption, but it would have been an awkward moment. Remember, if a guy feels he can't treat you like "one of the guys" then he will be uncomfortable around you and behave abnormally. Therefore, I might myself take this event as evidence of acceptance, a generally good thing.

Then of course, as was pointed out, what expectation did any of the women have? If this was a work-related conversation, they might have reason to complain. If it was a bull-session, then the expectation of more formal behavior might be inappropriate.

Finally, ask yourself this question: Was the woman new to the office, or had she just undergone a makeover, or was there something unusual or different about her? Also, is the woman one whose reputation is somewhat of a "tease" or "exhibitionist" ?? If so, the men were merely doing to the woman that which she wanted done. It might therefore have been an act of simple courtesy on their part.

In the absence of distinguishing information, there is no way for me to guess whether the action in question is rude or not.

Being an old hardware coot, I would say if the woman was good-looking enough or exuded enough pizazz, the men probably had their "sexy lady" interrupt raised. Men can't ignore hard interrupts in such cases. (One of those "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" things.) You can tell just how hard the interrupt was by a sudden reluctance of the man to face any women in the group without first putting his hand in his pocket for a bit of camouflage. ;)

If the conversation was casual enough, the fact that the men paused but continued the conversation is good. To ME, it means that the women in the group were being accorded one of the highest honors a group of guys can offer - being "one of the guys." If the guys were uncomfortable with the women in the conversation group, they would have perhaps avoided the interruption, but it would have been an awkward moment. Remember, if a guy feels he can't treat you like "one of the guys" then he will be uncomfortable around you and behave abnormally. Therefore, I might myself take this event as evidence of acceptance, a generally good thing.

Then of course, as was pointed out, what expectation did any of the women have? If this was a work-related conversation, they might have reason to complain. If it was a bull-session, then the expectation of more formal behavior might be inappropriate.

Finally, ask yourself this question: Was the woman new to the office, or had she just undergone a makeover, or was there something unusual or different about her? Also, is the woman one whose reputation is somewhat of a "tease" or "exhibitionist" ?? If so, the men were merely doing to the woman that which she wanted done. It might therefore have been an act of simple courtesy on their part.

In the absence of distinguishing information, there is no way for me to guess whether the action in question is rude or not.
.
Very nicely done! :D

If the conversation was casual enough, the fact that the men paused but continued the conversation is good. To ME, it means that the women in the group were being accorded one of the highest honors a group of guys can offer - being "one of the guys." If the guys were uncomfortable with the women in the conversation group, they would have perhaps avoided the interruption, but it would have been an awkward moment. Remember, if a guy feels he can't treat you like "one of the guys" then he will be uncomfortable around you and behave abnormally. Therefore, I might myself take this event as evidence of acceptance, a generally good thing.

Then of course, as was pointed out, what expectation did any of the women have? If this was a work-related conversation, they might have reason to complain. If it was a bull-session, then the expectation of more formal behavior might be inappropriate.

Finally, ask yourself this question: Was the woman new to the office, or had she just undergone a makeover, or was there something unusual or different about her? Also, is the woman one whose reputation is somewhat of a "tease" or "exhibitionist" ?? If so, the men were merely doing to the woman that which she wanted done. It might therefore have been an act of simple courtesy on their part.

In the absence of distinguishing information, there is no way for me to guess whether the action in question is rude or not.

I completely understand what you are saying. And the situations that it happens in are all casual. Standing outside a restaurant talking after our weekly lunch out together, (the whole team and I ... not just one guy and with other ladies from I.T. present), taking a smoke break (3 or 4 guys and I), or somewhere along those lines. But it happens SO frequently... lol.. and the women are all normal looking women... not going by in belly dancer garb or anything. And, I know I am being accepted as one of the guys and that is really important to me. But I guess I feel a little less of a woman when they do that. (Not one in particular... some do it more than others.... but it's all of them) So, I guess it's just me and if I want to be one of the guys, then I have to get tougher skin.

I completely understand what you are saying. And the situations that it happens in are all casual. Standing outside a restaurant talking after our weekly lunch out together, (the whole team and I ... not just one guy and with other ladies from I.T. present), taking a smoke break (3 or 4 guys and I), or somewhere along those lines. But it happens SO frequently... lol.. and the women are all normal looking women... not going by in belly dancer garb or anything. And, I know I am being accepted as one of the guys and that is really important to me. But I guess I feel a little less of a woman when they do that. (Not one in particular... some do it more than others.... but it's all of them) So, I guess it's just me and if I want to be one of the guys, then I have to get tougher skin.

It's hard to perform the balancing act between being a woman and one of the guys. Hermaphrodite might be the only one who got it right.

Personally, being of the female gender, whether or not I want to be included as one of the guys, I can appreciate that men have to look; so long as they then look back. The length of the pause is what bothers me. If it reaches the stage where I've forgotten what topic we were talking about that is rude to the nth degree.

You got it, nikky - if everyone does this for an average-looking woman and loses a train of thought, then something is wrong. So perhaps it is a matter of degree, not kind?

I have to say that I remember an incident in college similar to the discussion at hand.

I was in mid bull session with some other grad students when one of our undergrad student assistants (make money, get extra credit, what's not to like?) trotted by because she was late for a class.

She was a really attractive young lady named Becky. Long, fairly straight light-brown hair, very symmetric features, terrific complexion, great smile (and pretty teeth), laughter like tiny bells, only slightly coquettish. Because she was running and quite well endowed, her ... anatomy ... was like one of Old Soft Boss's avatars.

As I recall, the four of us stopped cold when she ran around the corner, bouncing and jiggling all the way. Even the flamboyantly gay male grad student was stunned by the sight. It took us as much as 90 seconds to say anything at all, and then the first thing any of us said was more like a gasp than anything articulate. It totally broke up the session better than any angry supervisor could have.

It was a real-life instance similar to the Bo Derek running-on-the-beach scene in "10" - except that Becky was prettier. NONE of us could remember the conversation, not that it mattered. But it was a moment that has stayed with me for more than 30 years.

So I guess I am qualified to speak with some authority on the subject, have experienced it first-hand.