Uh hu. I don’t think it’s paranoia to expect a yellow jacket to sting you.
what on earth is a "yellow jacket"? some weird fish that lives in peoples gardens?

Col

Eire isn't part of the UK, what don't you understand?

Who are the kind of people getting violent because of a claim over a part of the United Kingdom?

what on earth is a "yellow jacket"? some weird fish that lives in peoples gardens?

Col
Don't they tie it around a tree, or some such weird tradition they have?

Who are the kind of people getting violent because of a claim over a part of the United Kingdom?
Terrorists, I thought I'd already answered:confused:

Don't they tie it around a tree, or some such weird tradition they have?

Ok, I actually found that quite funny :D

Terrorists, I thought I'd already answered:confused:

Yes I know that. But who are they? Are they British? They seem to be trying to protect British interests in Ireland aren't they :confused:

I've told you before how encyclopaedic your ignorance is:rolleyes:

I know considerably more about American pollution than you do Rich, and I don't have to look it up on the web.

Did I claim there was not pollution?

My response was to your obsession with making every post about propagating your negative views on American society, Americans in general, and every single American you come in contact with.

And don’t think for a moment that your friendliness to American ladies is mistaken for genuine, because we both know you do it only to keep from being ostracized from the playground all together.

I know considerably more about American pollution than you do Rich, and I don't have to look it up on the web.

Did I claim there was not pollution?

My response was to your obsession with making every post about propagating your negative views on American society, Americans in general, and every single American you come in contact with.

And don’t think for a moment that your friendliness to American ladies is mistaken for genuine, because we both know you do it only to keep from being ostracized from the playground all together.
You know you remind me of that kid in class who's only ever going to get d's and f's and therefore decides to disrupt the whole class instead of paying attention and listening.

Yes I know that. But who are they? Are they British? They seem to be trying to protect British interests in Ireland aren't they :confused:
The problems in NI revolve around religion, always have and probably will for as long as people follow that "good book":rolleyes:

Don't they tie it around a tree, or some such weird tradition they have?
No, you're confusing the issue here with the idea that if you tie a yellow ribbon round a tree in America, then its a sort of communal welcome without the bother of actually speaking to the arriving person - thus you can continue to watch TV and eat burgers without interruption of welcoming someone you probobly hate anyway.

I have a Denim Jacket - but its not yellow

Col

You know you remind me of that kid in class who's only ever going to get d's and f's and therefore decides to disrupt the whole class instead of paying attention and listening.

You remind me of a teacher I once had. He gave me a 'B' for one assignment in English with the remark: "What happened to you, tripped and smacked your head or something?" :p

No, you're confusing the issue here with the idea that if you tie a yellow ribbon round a tree in America, then its a sort of communal welcome without the bother of actually speaking to the arriving person - thus you can continue to watch TV and eat burgers without interruption of welcoming someone you probobly hate anyway.

Col
Don't they hang up a banner with "mission accomplished" at the same time:confused:

The problems in NI revolve around religion, always have and probably will for as long as people follow that "good book":rolleyes:


And now on top of that you have more British citizens killing other British citizens for a different religion. I have to tell you, [and this isn't meant as a pointscore], from an outsiders perspective, it doesn't look very unified at all.

The problems in NI revolve around religion, always have and probably will for as long as people follow that "good book":rolleyes:

That's simply because the Irish were Catholics when the Protestant King Henry VIII declared himself king of ireland in 1524, all of the Irish problems stem from this, the protestant Irish, including my forefathers settled on Irish land either from England, or in my people case Scotland, thus it is arguable that the religious element merely mirrors the nationality or ethnicity. It should be remembered that one man's terrorist is anothers freedom fighter, not that I would condone many if any of the IRA actions and would certainly condemn the hypocritical American supporters of the IRA.

Brian

No, you're confusing the issue here with the idea that if you tie a yellow ribbon round a tree in America, then its a sort of communal welcome without the bother of actually speaking to the arriving person - thus you can continue to watch TV and eat burgers without interruption of welcoming someone you probobly hate anyway.


Talk about souring a perfectly good joke :rolleyes:

and would certainly condemn the hypocritical American supporters of the IRA.

Brian

I have to say there isn't much defence against this comment.

Talk about souring a perfectly good joke :rolleyes:
I merely explained the American weird yellow ribbon tradition. Whats your problem

It couldn't be a jacket (of any colour) - it would have to be a large jacket to go round a tree.

Anyway, why would a jacket sting?:confused:

Col

I have to tell you, [and this isn't meant as a pointscore], from an outsiders perspective, it doesn't look very unified at all.
you should know, you have enough wierd factions in the USA.

Col

That's simply because the Irish were Catholics when the Protestant King Henry VIII declared himself king of ireland in 1524, all of the Irish problems stem from this, the protestant Irish, including my forefathers settled on Irish land either from England, or in my people case Scotland, thus it is arguable that the religious element merely mirrors the nationality or ethnicity. It should be remembered that one man's terrorist is anothers freedom fighter, not that I would condone many if any of the IRA actions and would certainly condemn the hypocritical American supporters of the IRA.

Brian
But weren't the problems further exacerbated by Spanish catholics during Lizzy's reign?

But weren't the problems further exacerbated by Spanish catholics during Lizzy's reign?
It is true that the thought that the Spanish might seek help and bases in Ireland caused both Tudor queens to expedite the English take over of Ireland.
The Scots were already there in the North and the English took their enclave from them.

Brian

you should know, you have enough wierd factions in the USA.

Col

I have to admit that I don't. I'm left totally confused that people born and bred in the United Kingdom are thinking that they hate the country they live in to such an extent that they would kill their fellow citizens.

EDIT: Is this a unique scenario? Has it ever happened before. I can't think of where it has.

It is true that the thought that the Spanish might seek help and bases in Ireland caused both Tudor queens to expedite the English take over of Ireland.
The Scots were already there in the North and the English took their enclave from them.

Brian
The Scots then presumably returned to Glasgow:D

The Scots then presumably returned to Glasgow:D

I wonder if they whined about it? ;)

I have to admit that I don't. I'm left totally confused that people born and bred in the United Kingdom are thinking that they hate the country they live in to such an extent that they would kill their fellow citizens.
.
I've already told you, Religion:mad:

EDIT: Is this a unique scenario? Has it ever happened before. I can't think of where it has
Well Spain for starters, don't you guys ever get international news?

I have to admit that I don't. I'm left totally confused that people born and bred in the United Kingdom are thinking that they hate the country they live in to such an extent that they would kill their fellow citizens.
Danielle - what part of Brians answer did you not understand?

Its the usual war recipe, religion and territory, just like Israel and Palestine. The USA supplied arms to the Irish just as its supplying arms to the Israelies and supplied arms to the Taliban.

(you did know you are fighting a war in Afghanistan?)

Col

I wonder if they whined about it? ;)
Depends on which football ground they're at

Well Spain for starters, don't you guys ever get international news?
That refers to news beyond the US borders so is of no interest to Americans

Col

Well Spain for starters, don't you guys ever get international news?

No you misunderstand me. The ETA fights for Basque territory to be seperated from Spain. There is history of ethnicity, religion etc behind this. Just like in Ireland.

But look at the UK and there is NO such history in muslim context. Where are the claims that parts of the UK should be freed and returned back to muslim control? There are none. Don't you see the difference?

Don't you see the difference?
Nope, none whatsover, again, it all revolves around religion and brainwashing

I'd like to make a polite request.

The questions I'm asking are genuine. So could you hold fire on the allusions to American ignorance? Thanks :)

Nope, none whatsover, again, it all revolves around religion and brainwashing

Are you saying that history has nothing to do with it :confused:

But look at the UK and there is NO such history in muslim context. Where are the claims that parts of the UK should be freed and returned back to muslim control? There are none. Don't you see the difference?
I must have missed something Dan, I thought we were talking about Ireland, where does the muslim context come in?

Brian

Are you saying that history has nothing to do with it :confused:
History and religion are inextricably intertwined

I must have missed something Dan, I thought we were talking about Ireland, where does the muslim context come in?

Brian

Sorry Bri, it's a subject that I don't understand about the UK. I understand about how people get convinced to fight for a cause because of historical events. King Henry VIII, IRA, ETA etc...

What I don't get is British muslims fighting for a cause that has no such historical context. British people who are fighting for a cause that has no British historical context whatsoever.

Where are the claims that parts of the UK should be freed and returned back to muslim control? There are none. Don't you see the difference?
you've lost me:confused: wern't we discussing Northern Ireland v Eire? where did muslim come from?

Nearly home time thank god

Col

History and religion are inextricably intertwined

Which is what I don't get. Where is the history that these British muslims are drawing from to fuel their cause. They were born in Britain. Where is their British ethnicity?

you've lost me:confused: wern't we discussing Northern Ireland v Eire? where did muslim come from?

Nearly home time thank god

Col

See this post ref (http://www.access-programmers.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=548015&postcount=1284) ;)

Ah! If I understand you Dan you are talking about the British Muslims involved in the London bombings, as I understand it their religion transcends their nationality and they are part of fundamentalist Islam's plan to convert or subjegate the rest of the world.

Brian

Depends on which football ground they're at
I suspect there's plenty of whining on the Ibrox terraces.;) where's our Hales? keeping a low profile I suspect

Col

See this post ref (http://www.access-programmers.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=548015&postcount=1284) ;)
yes yes, I saw it, you posted yours at 4.06pm and I did mine at 4.07pm, in other words you posted whilst I was writing.

I'm concerned though that Jenny wants to wear a yellow jacket that stings - seems a bit odd to me.

Col

Ah! If I understand you Dan you are talking about the British Muslims involved in the London bombings, as I understand it their religion transcends their nationality and they are part of fundamentalist Islam's plan to convert or subjegate the rest of the world.

Brian

Yes. This is the difference I can't get my head around. An IRA terrorist can be brainwashed to the cause with all that history. Why? because they were born and bred in Ireland and that is where the history lies.

A British muslim to be brainwashed as a terrorist is completely the reverse. They have to be completely seperated from their true nationality first. They belong to no territory, no history.

The British Muslim's history is the history of Islam, as I said that over rides any nationality, at least for the fundamentalists.

Brian

The British Muslim's history is the history of Islam, as I said that over rides any nationality.


Which leads me back to my initial point. How unified is the United Kingdom if x [all?] number of British muslims disown British history as their own?

And again, disown it to such a point that a % of these are willing to kill for it?

Which leads me back to my initial point. How unified is the United Kingdom if x [all?] number of British muslims disown British history as their own?

And again, disown it to such a point that a % of these are willing to kill for it?
I don't know the figures but if this is the criteria for union then you are opening a can of worms, eg are the Amish part of the USA, would they fight for it? Its the divisive nature of religion, unfortunately we are back to Rich's ran.. er comments:)

Brian

...a yellow jacket that stings...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2a/Wasp.jpg/250px-Wasp.jpg
Yellowjackets are black-and-yellow wasps of the genus Vespula or Dolichovespula (some can be black-and-white, the most notable of these being the bald-faced hornet, Dolichovespula maculata). They can be identified by their distinctive combination of black-and-yellow color, small size (slightly larger than a bee), and entirely black antennae

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2a/Wasp.jpg/250px-Wasp.jpg
Yellowjackets are black-and-yellow wasps of the genus Vespula or Dolichovespula (some can be black-and-white, the most notable of these being the bald-faced hornet, Dolichovespula maculata). They can be identified by their distinctive combination of black-and-yellow color, small size (slightly larger than a bee), and entirely black antennae

When you say 'Yellow Jacket' in Georgia, here's what may come to mind:

Link (http://ramblinwreck.cstv.com/)

I don't know the figures but if this is the criteria for union then you are opening a can of worms, eg are the Amish part of the USA, would they fight for it? Its the divisive nature of religion, unfortunately we are back to Rich's ran.. er comments:)

Brian

Well take for example the comment you made about the hypocritical support of the IRA by Americans. Have these Americans ever made terrorist attacks against their own country on behalf of this cause? No.

Maybe the scenario I'm describing is coming to the US and exists elsewhere. I don't know. But to me, it seems completely unique. :confused:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2a/Wasp.jpg/250px-Wasp.jpg
Yellowjackets are black-and-yellow wasps of the genus Vespula or Dolichovespula (some can be black-and-white, the most notable of these being the bald-faced hornet, Dolichovespula maculata). They can be identified by their distinctive combination of black-and-yellow color, small size (slightly larger than a bee), and entirely black antennae


These are some of the most aggressive wasp in the Southern and eastern US.

They're small, but very feisty.

They're small, but very feisty.And due to the fact that they have no barbs on their stingers, they don't simply sting once and go away. Like that little bunny, they keep going, and going, and going...


...remind you of anyone?:rolleyes:

Well take for example the comment you made about the hypocritical support of the IRA by Americans. Have these Americans ever made terrorist attacks against their own country on behalf of this cause? No.

You have lost me here Dan.

The "cause" is to get the "British" out of Ireland and create a United Ireland, why would Irish_Americans attack America, which I presume they think is their own country. They are hypocrites because of that last point, the country they now live in and call their own was stolen, no matter how you wrap it up, from the native American Indians.
Note how Americans aren't supporting the Palestinians to gain back their land stolen by the Israelis.

Where is the consistency?

I entered the debate merely to attempt to clarify the Irish situation but the debate as widened and become more iffy.

Brian

You have lost me here Dan.

The "cause" is to get the "British" out of Ireland and create a United Ireland, why would Irish_Americans attack America, which I presume they think is their own country.

Exactly. Why then would British_Muslims attack Britain? To throw Britain out of Iraq, Afghanistan ...? It doesn't make any sense :confused:

And due to the fact that they have no barbs on their stingers, they don't simply sting once and go away. Like that little bunny, they keep going, and going, and going...


...remind you of anyone?:rolleyes:

Why do you think I used the analogy?

I think it is correct in every way.

Worm came to mind but even if you wouldn’t necessarily want to eat one, but there still pretty cool to have around.

Exactly. Why then would British_Muslims attack Britain? To throw Britain out of Iraq, Afghanistan ...? It doesn't make any sense :confused:

That is one reason, basically it is to try and influence British policy on numerous issues, remember Madrid? How long before Spain pulled out of Iraq?

I've enjoyed our civilized dialogue but have got to go now, may be back tomorrow.

Brian

I've enjoyed our civilized dialogue but have got to go now, may be back tomorrow.


Me too, and I must do some work today.

Me too, and I must do some work today.
What a shame, return soon for the next lesson

Exactly. Why then would British_Muslims attack Britain? To throw Britain out of Iraq, Afghanistan ...? It doesn't make any sense :confused:
they went to Pakistan and were brainwashed into hatred, religion again, see?

What a shame, return soon for the next lesson

Nice time at the bingo? :D

Nice time at the bingo? :D
If you define work as bingo, though bingo's an old biddy's pastime, or young kids. Take your pick;)

Wow, has this thread finally degenerated into some level of seriousness? I am intrigued! It is imposible to make everyone happy, many human minds crave some form of conflict, and the desire to be a part of something "bigger". If there were suddenly a(n?) United Ireland, there would likely still be conflict over it for years to come. Terrorism is a sadly effective way of influencing large scale decisions. The problem is, the ones who suffer are usually the 40 year old man coming home from working, and the 35 year old mother coming home from taking kids to the park, or the 21 year old college student returning from finals. Innocent people who suffer for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Also, just in case anyone was still curious about the Amish, here you go...
http://amisharmada.com/index.htm
Have a cute day, people.

What a shame, return soon for the next lesson
Snatch the pebble from my hand, Grasshopper!
(or in Rich's case, should it be "snatch the chip from my shoulder"? :p )

(or in Rich's case, should it be "snatch the chip from my shoulder"? :p )
How can I have a chip on the shoulder if I'm not American?:confused:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2a/Wasp.jpg/250px-Wasp.jpg
Yellowjackets are black-and-yellow wasps
so why not call them wasps? why do you always have to change the name of everything?

Col

so why not call them wasps? why do you always have to change the name of everything?

Col
It's not as if they're known for lengthening words:confused:

so why not call them wasps? why do you always have to change the name of everything?

Col

Because 'The Ga. Tech Wasps' doesn't sound as good - ;) :D :D

Because 'The Ga. Tech Wasps' doesn't sound as good - ;) :D :D
We have a rugby league team called "wasps", they wear yellow and black

Whats your problem? your game is a substandard copy anyway

Col

We have a rugby league team called "wasps", they wear yellow and black

Whats your problem? your game is a substandard copy anyway

Col

What can I say, it's all we have - ;)

We have a rugby league team called "wasps", they wear yellow and black

Whats your problem? your game is a substandard copy anyway

Col

Why add the part about it being substandard?

Because the only true college football is Texas, all the rest is substandard.

although I guess I need to change my alliance, my daughter just got her letter from Tech

Go Hokies!

Why add the part about it being substandard?

Because the only true college football is Texas, all the rest is substandard.

although I guess I need to change my alliance, my daughter just got her letter from Tech

Go Hokies!

T Tech or G TEch?

We have a rugby league team called "wasps", they wear yellow and black

Whats your problem? your game is a substandard copy anyway

ColGeez, Ebeneezer, you seem even more bellicose than usual. The ghosts not make their appearance yet?

Why add the part about it being substandard?


er - because its true?:confused: I don't understand what you're saying Josiah

Col

er - because its true?:confused: I don't understand what you're saying Josiah

Col

Why can't you just call him Joe? Isn't this the same as calling someone a name which is against one of your golden rules? :confused:

T Tech or G TEch?
Virginia Tech

Virginia Tech

Thta's great - What's her major?

When you say 'Yellow Jacket' in Georgia, here's what may come to mind:

Link (http://ramblinwreck.cstv.com/)


Or this :

http://www.yellowjackets.com/ :cool:

Why can't you just call him Joe? Isn't this the same as calling someone a name which is against one of your golden rules? :confused:
No harm in using Jenny's full name:rolleyes:

Col

Thta's great - What's her major?

I think it’s going to be biochemistry. She want’s to develop medicine.

No harm in using Jenny's full name:rolleyes:

Col

So is it now ok if I substitute some words for your name?

I think it’s going to be biochemistry. She want’s to develop medicine.

You must be proud - :) :)

You must be proud - :) :)


Thanks Ken,

She's a good kid, I attribute it to the daily beatings when she was young.

Thanks Ken,

She's a good kid, I attribute it to the daily beatings when she was young.

It's funny that you're saying that Joe. I remember having read somewhere that kids being beaten in their childhood do achieve more than those who aren't. Guess your father attributed in daily beatings to yourself , he ?;)

I think it’s going to be biochemistry. She want’s to develop medicine.
Then why is she going to play for the football team?:confused:

So is it now ok if I substitute some words for your name?
Mr Sanders has included his initial - therefore all forenames start with that letter, Mr Sanders does not sign his posts, therefore the name is open to guesswork.

My name is included in my login name, therefore there is no need to speculate on what it could be also I always sign my posts.

Thats why we don't call you Kalvin or Kevin because we know what you are.

Get it now?:rolleyes:

Col

Mr Sanders has included his initial - therefore all forenames start with that letter, Mr Sanders does not sign his posts, therefore the name is open to guesswork.

My name is included in my login name, therefore there is no need to speculate on what it could be also I always sign my posts.

Thats why we don't call you Kalvin or Kevin because we know what you are.

Get it now?:rolleyes:

Col


Thank you Col,

From now on I will sign some of my post

Henry

Thank you Col,

From now on I will sign some of my post

Henry
Henry

:confused: :confused:

Brian

Henry doesn't start with a "J".

or is Henry a nickname?

Col

Henry doesn't start with a "J".

or is Henry a nickname?

Col
it could be like some people named John like to be called Hank or Henry, Why I dunno they just do

Henry

:confused: :confused:

Brian

Naw I go by Joe.

But I am the fith first born Henry.

All of us have different middle names.

My Grandfather and his Grandfather went by Henry, His dad went by DeDe

My dad goes by something all together differnent

Mr Sanders has included his initial - therefore all forenames start with that letter, Mr Sanders does not sign his posts, therefore the name is open to guesswork.

My name is included in my login name, therefore there is no need to speculate on what it could be also I always sign my posts.

Thats why we don't call you Kalvin or Kevin because we know what you are.

Get it now?:rolleyes:

Col

Per Post 1337, his name is Joe. So any further derogatory names you may elect to call him will be viewed as just more of your rude behavior. Get it now? :rolleyes:

Per Post 1337, his name is Joe. So any further derogatory names you may elect to call him will be viewed as just more of your rude behavior. Get it now? :rolleyes:
It's obviously escaped your attention, but my post was No 1336, therefore Mr Sanders posted after mine Kenny, so at the time of writing, my post was correct.

Anyway, most Josephine's are called Joe.

Col

It's obviously escaped your attention, but my post was No 1336, therefore Mr Sanders posted after mine Kenny, so at the time of writing, my post was correct.

Anyway, most Josephine's are called Joe.

Col

And perhaps it escaped your attention that I said 'any further'...:rolleyes:

And perhaps it escaped your attention that I said 'any further'...:rolleyes:
I thought Josie did a post somewhere where he said it didn't bother him, as its not malicious name calling, more terms of affection. In fact, Josie is one of those few Americans here you can have a decent conversation with.

It only seems to be you KennyBoy that gets out of your pram about it, but I suppose you have a personal interest in it somewhere along the line.

Col

I thought Josie did a post somewhere where he said it didn't bother him, as its not malicious name calling, more terms of affection. In fact, Josie is one of those few Americans here you can have a decent conversation with.

It only seems to be you KennyBoy that gets out of your pram about it, but I suppose you have a personal interest in it somewhere along the line.

Col

Not to worry, I'll just drop it - Should be about home time for you huh? Ride the motorbike in today?

so why not call them wasps? why do you always have to change the name of everything?

Col

Two things...
1. We call them by different names to keep from generalizing all of them together. We try not to stereotype our wasps, lol.
2. Changing names? Ask Rich, hes the one with the hard-on for name changing.

I guess the same reasons as anyone. Every culture has different words for different things. It makes things interesting. In fact, no joke: while I was off skiing, a wounded british gent (nice guy, by the way, we talked for almost an hour) said something along the lines of:
"I got snogged(?) by this fit bird..I mean she was a fit bird." I took that to mean either he got drunk with an attractive lady, or he bedded her, lol. He was absolutely hilarious, and we had a lot more in common than I would have assumed, besides being hurt in Iraq. Anyhow, if someone could clarify that statement, I would stop laughing every time I thought about it. I guess I could look it up, but whats the fun in that?

It's obviously escaped your attention, but my post was No 1336, therefore Mr Sanders posted after mine Kenny, so at the time of writing, my post was correct.

Anyway, most Josephine's are called Joe.

Col
I think to avoid any confusion, we should use the name Henrietta

"I got snogged(?) by this fit bird..I mean she was a fit bird."

If I recall my British (by way of new zealand) slang correctly he said he got kissed by a good looking woman

please let me know if it is different meanings in Britain and New Zealand

Why add the part about it being substandard?

Quote from the Buffy TV series:
"I just think it's rather odd that a nation that prides itself on its virility should feel compelled to strap on forty pounds of protective gear just in order to play rugby." - Giles (who's British)

If I recall my British (by way of new zealand) slang correctly he said he got kissed by a good looking woman

please let me know if it is different meanings in Britain and New Zealand

Snogged is a bit more than just a polite kiss, and fit in this sense is a bit more than good looking, but you have the general idea.:D

Brian

I go away for 1 week, and I see that US and UK relations are as they were when I left.

Good to see that nothing changes. :o)

It's obviously escaped your attention, but my post was No 1336, therefore Mr Sanders posted after mine Kenny, so at the time of writing, my post was correct.

Anyway, most Josephine's are called Joe.

Col
Actually I think they are called Jo.

Actually I think they are called Jo.
If they're American they usually have those funny hyphenated forenames like Mary-Jo, Billy-Jo etc.

Don't most US teenage girls with those funny names want to be cheerleaders?

Col

Actually I think they are called Jo.
Who's JoJo then?:confused:

Who's JoJo then?:confused:
JoJo was a man who thought he was a loner.

Col

JoJo was a man who thought he was a loner.

Col
but he knew it wouldn't last

But he knew it wouldn't last.

but he knew it wouldn't last
JoJo left his home in Tuscon Arizona

For some California grass

For some California grass
Do they grow dope in California?:confused:

http://images.imvu.com/catalog/images/sticker_images/498605_stoned-dopey.gif

Well that's better than growing a dope in Connecticut

JoJo left his home in Tuscon Arizona
Was it because of the gun crime there?:confused:

Whats been going on in London the last couple weeks?

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=246242007

Yeah I know this is kinda an old topic, but this story fits right in here

Not sure exactly where Yorkshire is but here is another one

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=246162007

Whats been going on in London the last couple weeks?

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=246242007

Yeah I know this is kinda an old topic, but this story fits right in here

Not sure exactly where Yorkshire is but here is another one

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=246162007

god knows what is going on with the kids in that part of london. i had not heard of the yorkshire incident - it looks like that plus the london shootings were the direct results of drugs in society. the police seem powerless to stop these things happening - i'm starting to think that it is time this country took a deep breath and made some brave decisions re drugs policy.

Oh man, what is up with that? Those crazy shoot first ask question later Brits!
Nothing but a bunch of cowboys!:eek:

if more proof were needed to demonstrate the moral malaise that seems to infect this country -

bbc link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/6366255.stm)

what with 15 year old kids being regularly shot and morons like those in the link above it seems that that UN report slating the uk's treatment of its kids is quite accurate.:mad: what is wrong with some people? why do they act this way?

Here is another one. I think I remember reading about this when it first happened

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=244942007

At the least the womans niece was not injured. that is something to be thankful for.

Here is another one. I think I remember reading about this when it first happened

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=244942007

At the least the womans niece was not injured. that is something to be thankful for.

yes, i remember hearing about that at the time - it horrified the country. it seems his experiences in war torn africa may be the reason -

bbc link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6354269.stm)

not a justification but possibly an explanation. he may have been screwed up by war but he was still his own man and still made his own decisions.

How long can this bloody madness go on before somebody wakes up!:mad:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6560685.stm

Steady Rich - walls have ears

I have no comment on this subject

Col

Steady Rich - walls have ears

Col

Pity America doesn't listen to the message

How long can this bloody madness go on before somebody wakes up!:mad:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6560685.stm
I totally agree with RICH:eek:

If they would let the students carry guns, they could have mowed this crazy down before too many were killed.
Stupid government and administrators.

I totally agree with RICH:eek:

If they would let the students carry guns, they could have mowed this crazy down before too many were killed.
Stupid government and administrators.

I've never said or implied that students should be allowed to carry guns, far from it. In fact if your troops weren't keep going off to fight wars in foreign lands to keep "Americans safe", they could be posted on school gates to protect Americans from Americans

...to protect Americans from Americansum...that would be, to protect Americans from South Koreans, pay attention:rolleyes:

This should add some fuel to the illegal/legal immigrant fire. Can't wait for that to start. :eek:

um...that would be, to protect Americans from South Koreans, pay attention:rolleyes:

This should add some fuel to the illegal/legal immigrant fire. Can't wait for that to start. :eek:

That's odd, I thought South Korea was an ally of Uncle Sam:confused:

That's odd, I thought South Korea was an ally of Uncle Sam:confused:He's probably a North Korean/Chinese sleeper agent :eek:

He's probably a North Korean/Chinese sleeper agent :eek:

15 years of watching American TV is enough to drive anyone insane:rolleyes:

15 years of watching American TV is enough to drive anyone insane:rolleyes:

You'll get no arguments from me on that one. ;)

You'll get no arguments from me on that one. ;)

Damn!:mad: ;) :D

You'll get no arguments from me on that one. ;)

I agree with Cindy here, reality tv is just retarded, it needs to go and well tv in general needs to go. there isnt much ont hat is worth anything, and not much that I want my kid to watch when he is able to understand such things.

um...that would be, to protect Americans from South Koreans, pay attention:rolleyes:

This should add some fuel to the illegal/legal immigrant fire. Can't wait for that to start. :eek:

Message to self - must not critisise America, must not critisise America.:rolleyes: there's a grass about:rolleyes:

Col

Message to self - must not critisise America, must not critisise America.:rolleyes: there's a grass about:rolleyes:

Hey Col, there's nothing wrong with criticising America...at least when it doesn't stoop to a personal level. ;)

...there's a grass about:rolleyes::confused: :confused: :confused:

grass - narrow-leaved green herbage: grown as lawns; used as pasture for grazing animals; cut and dried as hay

...ahhh...maybe: (n) an informer, especially a police informer. (v)betray, especially to police. ??

:confused: :confused: :confused:

grass - narrow-leaved green herbage: grown as lawns; used as pasture for grazing animals; cut and dried as hay


I thought it was something Americans smoked?:confused:

I'm sure the USA will do what is necessary following the killings. We saw the President yesterday being really sincere and I thought it was nice of him to take the time to address the nation.

Col

I'm sure the USA will do what is necessary following the killings. We saw the President yesterday being really sincere Col

Are you taking the pi** or what?:eek: America flatly refuses to do what's correct, always has and always will as long as the NRA has a political voice. In fact it was Bush who made it easier for any jackass to own and conceal a gun. Only when the United States are actually united will the problem be addressed:rolleyes:

I'm sure the USA will do what is necessary following the killings. :eek: We saw the President yesterday being really sincere:eek: :eek: and I thought it was nice of him to take the time to address the nation.:eek: :eek: :eek:

http://www.livenirvana.com/forum/images/smilies/jawdrop.gif

I have read that to solve the knife problem in the UK - that after low levels talks (Bush and Blair) the UK has decided to allow all its citizens and immigrants with right to remain the right to buy and carry whatever sharpened steel implements thay deem necsessary to protect themselves.


Phew - thanks the lord for a bit of sense to come out of the UK-US alliance.

Guns, knives, and other implements of destruction are nothing more than tools and the crimes are committed by those who wield them. IMHO, even if you remove the tool it does not fix the problem... the individual. Man has risen to his place in the food chain because of inventiveness and problem solving...visit a maximum security prison and find out how deadly a toothbrush can be in the wrong hands.

All you accomplish with weapons bans is change the nature of the weapons that the disturbed and disgruntled will use to hurt each other.

I bet theres 32 families who would have fancied their loved ones chances against a maniac with a toothbrush.

The case against the US laws on guns rests at that point. They are rediculous.

I own three guns. None have them have ever killed anyone. Well, one propably did - it's a WWI rifle.

I own 2 toothbrushes - they haven't killed anyone either.

Exactly my point.

Cho Seung-hui owned a toothbrush, and two guns - his toothbrush killed noone either!

Neither did his guns. He did. A gun (or a toothbrush) can sit on a table for 5,000 years and never harm a soul until a person decides to take actions. I find it humourous that people blame inanimate objects as if the object has some sort of sentience which allows it to wander the streets at night looking for unsuspecting prey.

Neither did his guns.

If 32 were manually strangled you would have a valid point.

To be honest its not my problem - if you feel safer with every nutter having a gun thats up to you. I feel safer with every nutter having a toothbrush and no gun.

Neither did his guns. He did. A gun (or a toothbrush) can sit on a table for 5,000 years and never harm a soul until a person decides to take actions. I find it humourous that people blame inanimate objects as if the object has some sort of sentience which allows it to wander the streets at night looking for unsuspecting prey.

You're fighting a losing battle on this one. Some people don't understand the difference, or they missed the point in Bodi's post about human inventiveness, choosing instead to focus in on the toothbrush thing. Maybe a gun ban would make mass killings a little more rare, but unfortunately it doesn't take away people's intent to do harm. As Bodi said before, someone really determined will find a way. Sad but true. :(

You're fighting a losing battle on this one. Some people don't understand the difference, or they missed the point in Bodi's post about human inventiveness, choosing instead to focus in on the toothbrush thing. Maybe a gun ban would make mass killings a little more rare, but unfortunately it doesn't take away people's intent to do harm. As Bodi said before, someone really determined will find a way. Sad but true.



I struggle to imagine him inventing anything were he would have killed 32 people. (Maybe an electric toothbrush?) He had a few hours from his first murderous intent to killing himself.

I struggle to imagine him inventing anything were he would have killed 32 people...Why imagine? Correct me if I'm wrong but during the unfortunate explosions in the London subway, no guns were used (or toothbrushes) and at least 52 died. :(

I hope that if someone wants to kill me it will be with a knife (or toothbrush;)). The point is that you cannot kill 32 with a knife, at least not at once. Someone would have make him loose it and the number of death would have been a lot lower. What can someone do against a gun killer? You can't throw a punch at someone 10 feet away armed with a gun, but you may be able to do so against someone 2 feet away with a knife.

I understand your point of view about the right to have a gun. But it shouldn't be for everyone. My uncle doesn't have the right to drive a car because they caught him drunk at the wheel. Why can't they make psychologic tests to those asking for guns.

I am not against guns, I am against giving them to anybody without proper inspections. Having a green card, that guy didn't have the right to vote, but had the right to buy a gun? I think something is wrong there. And it was proven that the police had arrested that guy earlier for harassing two girls and a teacher. Why didn't they take its guns away from him?

I own three guns. None have them have ever killed anyone. Well, one propably did - it's a WWI rifle.

Since their purpose is to kill, what's the point in having them?:confused:

Neither did his guns. He did. A gun (or a toothbrush) can sit on a table for 5,000 years and never harm a soul until a person decides to take actions. I find it humourous that people blame inanimate objects as if the object has some sort of sentience which allows it to wander the streets at night looking for unsuspecting prey.

The gun is designed with one purpose in mind, to kill, as for explosives on the tube, they are a great deal more difficult to get hold of than a gun

You're fighting a losing battle on this one. Some people don't understand the difference, or they missed the point in Bodi's post about human inventiveness, choosing instead to focus in on the toothbrush thing. Maybe a gun ban would make mass killings a little more rare, but unfortunately it doesn't take away people's intent to do harm. As Bodi said before, someone really determined will find a way. Sad but true. :(

Come on Cindy, there are 95,000 deaths or injuries in the US every year as a result of America's love for the gun

The gun is designed with one purpose in mind, to kill, as for explosives on the tube, they are a great deal more difficult to get hold of than a gun

That's a blatant lie, or more likely complete ignorance, or just someone lacking in basic chemical knowledge.

I can make a bomb out of materials from the local hardware store, and if I go to 2 or 3 of them, no one will question what I am buying. And I kill a whole heck of a lot more than 32 people at once with it. I have to wait a few days to purchase a gun, the bomb material I can have in a couple hours. Perhaps I should have my airplane taken away from me as well, because 2 airplanes crashed into a prominent New York City structure 5-1/2 years ago. Over 3,000 killed with no guns. In fact, they were indrectly killed with knives (boxcutters). Or maybe the Oklahoma City bombing killing over 100 people, and in that case neither a gun nor a knife was used in that. Or the London subway bombings - again no guns. Tokyo. All of them had higher death tolls than the VT incident. And none of them used guns.

I currently store enough material in my warehouse to probably take out an entire city block if I went to the home improvement store and bought some fertilizer and mixed with what I have here. Also easier to obtain than a gun.

When you understand gun ownership then maybe you will be qualified to discuss the ramifications.

Come on Cindy, there are 95,000 deaths or injuries in the US every year as a result of America's love for the gun

And there are more than that due to automobiles. What's your point?

And there are more than that due to automobiles. What's your point?

Automobiles have some control at least, even in the US

Since their purpose is to kill, what's the point in having them?:confused:

I target shoot. Why do you own a computer? You don't *need* it.

Automobiles have some control at least, even in the US

More automobiles are stolen every day in the US than guns. What control are you imagining?

That's a blatant lie,

Not in this country it isn't, in fact in Eire and NI the fertilizer required for such isn't available.
There is also a case going through the courts at the minute where a group had purchased a large quantity of the said chemicals which could be used to construct a bomb or several bombs
I can have in a couple hours. Perhaps I should have my airplane taken away from me as well, because 2 airplanes crashed into a prominent New York City structure 5-1/2 years ago. Over 3,000 killed with no guns.
That's why the US eventually woke up to SECURITY on planes and banned certain items from hand luggage, what's it got to do with guns by the way?:confused:

I am no expert on explosives but isn't secreting a couple of handguns on campus alot easier than preparing explosives in your own home-made laboratory in a campus dormitory? :confused:

You don't *need* it.

Yes I do and I can't use my PC to slaughter anyone with, in any event you can target shoot with a paintball or air rifle

More automobiles are stolen every day in the US than guns. What control are you imagining?

I'm not on about the theft of autos, even some of your states try and protect people from the car

I am no expert on explosives but isn't secreting a couple of handguns on campus alot easier than preparing explosives in your own home-made laboratory in a campus dormitory? :confused:actually, no. I had a chem major that lived down the hall and we entertained ourselves on the weekends with homemade...ummm...let's say, high-octane noise makers.

Yes I do and I can't use my PC to slaughter anyone with, in any event you can target shoot with a paintball or air rifle

You'll shoot your eye out ;)

Yes I do and I can't use my PC to slaughter anyone with, in any event you can target shoot with a paintball or air rifle

No, you don't need it. You just think you do. I know hundreds of people that don't own a computer, they are surviving just fine. Maybe that's your problem, you have a basic inabliity to grasp simple concepts.

And guess what, I can just as easily kill someone with a paintball or an air rifle.

actually, no. I had a chem major that lived down the hall and we entertained ourselves on the weekends with homemade...ummm...let's say, high-octane noise makers.

Well like I said I'm no expert on explosives :D

Not in this country it isn't, in fact in Eire and NI the fertilizer required for such isn't available.
There is also a case going through the courts at the minute where a group had purchased a large quantity of the said chemicals which could be used to construct a bomb or several bombs



We aren't talking about YOUR country. We are talking about the USA. You said it's not possible. It is. You might want to get your facts straight before telling the rest of us what we should or shouldn't do.

No, you don't need it. You just think you do. .

My business profitability depends on it, I do need it thanks


And guess what, I can just as easily kill someone with a paintball or an air rifle

Not in one go and shooting at random you couldn't

Well like I said I'm no expert on explosives :D

Google will tell you more than you need to know about making a great number of explosives. ;)

We are talking about the USA.

You haven't had a terrorist attack on the TUBE, of course I'm referring to my country, the Gun problem exists in your country

My business profitability depends on it, I do need it thanks

Not in one go and shooting at random you couldn't

Again, not a need, a CHOICE. You could be involved in a different business. Again, I see that inablilty to grasp simple concepts popping up again. And yes, I could with the air rifle or paint ball gun. Maybe you don't possess the knowledge to do so, but it CAN be done. Again, get your facts straight.

Again, not a need, a CHOICE. You could be involved in a different business. Again, I see that inablilty to grasp simple concepts popping up again. And yes, I could with the air rifle or paint ball gun. Maybe you don't possess the knowledge to do so, but it CAN be done. Again, get your facts straight.

I was shooting guns long before you my friend, skip the lecture. You could not slaughter over thirty people in a single attack at all, an air rifle won't put a pellet through a door and then through somebody stood behind it, but then of course being the US it'll probably be propelled by a friggin jet engine:rolleyes:

My business profitability depends on it, I do need it thanks

I wonder how much money you lose by arguing on this forum all day :confused:

I wonder how much money you lose by arguing on this forum all day :confused:

None :cool:

I was shooting guns long before you my friend, skip the lecture. You could not slaughter over thirty people in a single attack at all, an air rifle won't put a pellet through a door and then through somebody stood behind it, but then of course being the US it'll probably be propelled by a friggin jet engine:rolleyes:

I could. You couldn't. You lack imagination.

You lack imagination.

Absolutely not, you lack the ability to show concern for your fellow man, or actually children, but then Americans don't care much for their kids do they, an old scrap of paper is more important

Absolutely not, you lack the ability to show concern for your fellow man, or actually children, but then Americans don't care much for their kids do they, an old scrap of paper is more important

Well then, explain Kennesaw, GA to me. Oh expert of all things.

If you mean this garbage, then I'm not sure what your point is other than that the US is so out of control on gun control that every one now needs to have one.
Kennesaw has the nickname of "Gun Town, USA" due to a city ordinance passed in 1982 [Sec 34-1a] that requires every head of household to maintain a firearm with ammunition.

If you mean this garbage, then I'm not sure what your point is other than that the US is so out of control on gun control that every one now needs to have one.

Thank you for making my point. You are clueless. How about this? I won't tell you what kind of whiskey to drink, and you don't tell me what I can legally have or not have in my house.

I was shooting guns long before you my friend, skip the lecture. You could not slaughter over thirty people in a single attack at all, an air rifle won't put a pellet through a door and then through somebody stood behind it, but then of course being the US it'll probably be propelled by a friggin jet engine:rolleyes:

Depends, more power than a .22
High Powered Air gun (http://www.airgundepot.com/career707-707.html)

Thank you for making my point. You are clueless. How about this? I won't tell you what kind of whiskey to drink, and you don't tell me what I can legally have or not have in my house.

Why not mind your own business and stop invading every country on the planet that doesn't pray to Uncle Sam. You can preach to me when America stays at home, stops dictating to everybody else, stops invading countries that don't subserviate to the mighty US:rolleyes:

Depends, more power than a .22
High Powered Air gun (http://www.airgundepot.com/career707-707.html)

Only an American would need this power to back up their manhood

Why not mind your own business and stop invading every country on the planet that doesn't pray to Uncle Sam. You can preach to me when America stays at home, stops dictating to everybody else, stops invading countries that don't subserviate to the mighty US:rolleyes:

Well since you could really care less for Americans, crack open a pint and drink to the 32 deaths of those you hate, and be glad there's less of us to deal with. You can even write the Korean Embassy and thank them for removing some of the scourge of the earth.

Well since you could really care less for Americans, crack open a pint and drink to the 32 deaths of those you hate, and be glad there's less of us to deal with. You can even write the Korean Embassy and thank them for removing some of the scourge of the earth.

Typical American response, because they don't like the message, accuse the sender of anti-Americanism or hate. I actually care more for those who are senslessly shot and killed than an American could comprehend, let's see, Americas answer is just to pray for the victims, how quaint:rolleyes:

Well since you could really care less for Americans, crack open a pint and drink to the 32 deaths of those you hate, and be glad there's less of us to deal with.

Lets get some perspective here - 32 Americans shot dead by a gun crank. You'd think it was the only event happening?
160 Iraqi's dead today by a crank uleashed by the USA's fixation on "freedom"

Where is the USA's president? not on TV pouring out the usual fake sorrow like he was yesterday - he doesn't care a toss that 5 times as many people were killed today in one market place purely due to the USA's greed of oil. I nearly threw up watching him yesterday on TV

In case its not on your USA censored TV, here's a ref (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6567329.stm)

Col

Typical American response, because they don't like the message, accuse the sender of anti-Americanism or hate. I actually care more for those who are senslessly shot and killed than an American could comprehend, let's see, Americas answer is just to pray for the victims, how quaint:rolleyes:

You're the one preaching hate, you've already used a number of insults and epithets regarding Americans today, so why would I believe any different. All I can go by is what you type on here. I'm just telling you to celebrate. Americans were killed, you should rejoice. And if you forgot it wasn't an American that was responsible.

I don't pray. I lost religion a long time ago. But that's another discussion.

Lets get some perspective here - 32 Americans shot dead by a gun crank. You'd think it was the only event happening?
160 Iraqi's dead today by a crank uleashed by the USA's fixation on "freedom"

Where is the USA's president? not on TV pouring out the usual fake sorrow like he was yesterday - he doesn't care a toss that 5 times as many people were killed today in one market place purely due to the USA's greed of oil. I nearly threw up watching him yesterday on TV

In case its not on your USA censored TV, here's a ref (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6567329.stm)

Col

I won't get dragged into an Iraq debate. I don't think we should be there, and if we *had* to go in there for some reason, we did it all the wrong way.

I'm just telling you to celebrate. Americans were killed, you should rejoice.

There are many in the world who are celebrating - but not any on these forums. Stop over-reacting:rolleyes:

Col

I won't get dragged into an Iraq debate.

Nor me - I was just equating the two events as being USA based. But the US prez ignores the latter

Col

You're the one preaching hate, you've already used a number of insults and epithets regarding Americans today, so why would I believe any different. All I can go by is what you type on here. I'm just telling you to celebrate. Americans were killed, you should rejoice. And if you forgot it wasn't an American that was responsible.

I don't pray. I lost religion a long time ago. But that's another discussion.

I've said this so many times before, I don't hate anybody, I'm not American, I actually attacked the American culture, but as has so often happens here the usual anti-American and hatred diatribe is rolled out. Like I've already said, I don't rejoice over anyone killed, I'm not American, as to who was resposible, what the hell has that got to do with anything, are you suggesting that it would be more acceptable if he were American?

I'm not American, I actually attacked the American culture, but as has so often happens here the usual anti-American and hatred diatribe is rolled out.

Then if they don't get their way, they grass you up.:rolleyes:

Col

Then if they don't get their way, they grass you up.:rolleyes:

Col

or when they put you on the ignore list for daring to point out that the "land of freedom and justice" is nothing of the sort:rolleyes:
Where's the justice for the latest victims, and why the hell should we keep feeling so much sorrow for them when America buries its head in the sand and pays homage to an old scrap of paper:rolleyes:

Well I was just watching the 10pm news on the Beeb - their top story is the 160 odd dead in Baghdad thanks to the USA. The American 32 has [at last] dropped from the top story.

At least the Beeb gets its priorities right. I doubt if US TV will even mention the Iraqi dead, it'll be so full of it's own [comparatively] insignificant student massacre

Col

Where's the justice for the latest victims, and why the hell should we keep feeling so much sorrow for them when America buries its head in the sand and pays homage to an old scrap of paper:rolleyes:

The US pro gun lobby is so great that even the prez is scared to do the right thing (but oddly sends thousand to their death in a war for oil). Gun control is a vote loser for any candidate, so it'll never change.
The US will always have many of it's citizens packing some sort of gun, ready to kill. Why else carry or own a gun?

Col

Why imagine? Correct me if I'm wrong but during the unfortunate explosions in the London subway, no guns were used (or toothbrushes) and at least 52 died.

Correct me if I am wrong - I reckon they could have killed more had guns been freely available to them. There were four separate attacks so an average death count of 13 per attacker , less than 32 by my maths. So terrorists with training and backing in Pakistan by Bin Laden et al, were not capable of being as lethal as a lone nut on a university campus in the US.

There was a subsequent attack were the inventive explosives failed to go off so noone was killed - in that example too, guns manufactured with quality control by major corporations would have caused a bigger death toll.

I could also point out that guns would have done nothing to prevent the first attack.

Why with all these options available to him why did Cho Seung-hui choose guns not fertilizer based explosives, or his hammer, or a knife or a toothbrush? If someone pro guns, could provide an answer to that I would be very pleased to know.

Even if other tools were as effective or more effective - the argument that some other tool could be used is stupid, lets make cocaine legal, after all people are inventive and could easily use heroine to get off their face instead. Dumb!

Perhaps I should have my airplane taken away from me as well, because 2 airplanes crashed into a prominent New York City structure 5-1/2 years ago. Over 3,000 killed with no guns. In fact, they were indrectly killed with knives (boxcutters). Or maybe the Oklahoma City bombing killing over 100 people, and in that case neither a gun nor a knife was used in that. Or the London subway bombings - again no guns. Tokyo. All of them had higher death tolls than the VT incident. And none of them used guns.

You can not seriously compare any of these events with the shootings at Virginia Tech. One, all of the above were acts of terrorism; two, all involved a number of people working together to achieve death; and three, all cases were for a cause the conspirators believed in, no matter how obscene we find it. A lone gunman acting alone on a spree kill is neither an act of terrorism, the work of a group, or for any cause.

When you understand gun ownership then maybe you will be qualified to discuss the ramifications.
This is a false syllogism. What you are saying here is that:


You own a gun.
A gun owner is qualified to discuss ramifications.
Therefore you are qualified to discuss ramifications.


It's false because discussing the ramifications of gun ownership requires no qualification. I, as a person who does not own a gun, have every right to discuss the ramifications of gun ownership. It's an tete-a-tete of opinions and nothing more.

My own opinions on gun ownership are that they are not necessary and, given that the Second Amendment was a change to the existing constitution, it is not above being amended again to something more responsible. After all, when the change came into effect all those years ago, it required the common American to form militias to defend the fledgling nation. Now, as the biggest army in the world, the whole purpose of the Second Amendment, is no longer required given that it's doubtful any nation would dare and invade those shores.

...Why with all these options available to him why did Cho Seung-hui choose guns not fertilizer based explosives, or his hammer, or a knife or a toothbrush? If someone pro guns, could provide an answer to that I would be very pleased to know...Stupidity? Mental instability? Paranoia? Chemical Imbalance? The guy was a complete and certifiable whack-job. He mailed a video, pics, and rants to NBC before he went off, outlining his intentions and "manifesto". This is not someone who randomly picked up a gun because it was convenient and managed this amount of carnage because of the weapons he "stumbled" upon, it was pre-meditated, thought out, planned, and staged. The short answer is that the guy was just plain crazy. I would not be surprised if someone as disturbed would have attempted to kill people with a used condom and a soup spoon :eek:

There was an incident of road rage in MD last week that escalated from the usual one-finger-salute to vehicle-A pulling directly into the path of vehicle B and locking up the brakes. Vehicle-B swerved, flipped, went off the road and into a patch of trees, killing both occupants. Obviously, the car was not intended to kill people, but in this case that's exactly what it was used to do :( It does not mean the car, manufacturer, or dealer are responsible for the actions of the driver.

I think you should also temper your argument with the distinction between "pro-guns", "gun-control", and "gun-ban". Despite what the local misanthropes might lead you to believe, the general consensus of American citizens is NOT that guns should be freely available to anyone at anytime, but that their purchase should be controlled and examined and that complete background checks should be completed prior to sale (which did occur in this case, btw). You also need to understand that what is more frightening than the stray nutter that slips though the cracks and obtains a gun is any government that fears weapons in the hands of it's citizens.

Which leads us back to my original argument that you so conveniently ignored... it is not the guns, it the person. Fix the person, the gun argument is irrelevant.

their [guns] purchase should be controlled and examined and that complete background checks should be completed prior to sale (which did occur in this case, btw).
I was watching an ITV interview with the guy who owns the Roanoke Arms store where Cho bought the gun. In response to a question on mental health, the guy said that Cho ticked the box to say he had no history of poor mental health. Then asked if that was all, the store owner said yes.

You can not seriously compare any of these events with the shootings at Virginia Tech. One, all of the above were acts of terrorism; two, all involved a number of people working together to achieve death;The more that comes out about the VT incident and the twisted nature of the gunman, I would actually submit that due to it's pre-meditated and planned nature, it would actally qualify as an act of domestic terrorism. According to the US Department of Defense, terrorism is "the unlawful use of -- or threatened use of -- force or violence against individuals or property to coerce or intimidate governments or societies, often to achieve political, religious, or ideological objectives."...and from the clip I saw on the news this morning, he wanted to punish people for what he saw as social crimes.
..Now, as the biggest army in the world, the whole purpose of the Second Amendment, is no longer required given that it's doubtful any nation would dare and invade those shores.

Last I heard, the largest army in the world belonged to China...

And I wouldn't be so certain of the last part either, but that's just my lone opinion.

But I will agree that you have the right to discuss gun ownership even if you don't have a gun...I'll not concede that you can determine intent or motivation for others, though.:)

I was watching an ITV interview with the guy who owns the Roanoke Arms store where Cho bought the gun. In response to a question on mental health, the guy said that Cho ticked the box to say he had no history of poor mental health. Then asked if that was all, the store owner said yes.But that's not the end of the check. During the wait period, the applicant's background is screened and double checked. Although Cho was institutionalized, he had gone willingly, which, since it was not institutionalization at the demand of law enforcement, didn't show up on the check. That scared the hell out of me.:eek:

Stupidity? Mental instability? Paranoia? Chemical Imbalance? The guy was a complete and certifiable whack-job. He mailed a video, pics, and rants to NBC before he went off, outlining his intentions and "manifesto". This is not someone who randomly picked up a gun because it was convenient and managed this amount of carnage because of the weapons he "stumbled" upon, it was pre-meditated, thought out, planned, and staged. The short answer is that the guy was just plain crazy. I would not be surprised if someone as disturbed would have attempted to kill people with a used condom and a soup spoon

If thats not an argument for him not to have had easy access to guns I don't know what is.

Which leads us back to my original argument that you so conveniently ignored... it is not the guns, it the person. Fix the person, the gun argument is irrelevant.

How do you propose to fix all these people, can you even spot all the ones that need fixing? You are going to get a Nobel prize in medicine, peace, economics etc if you can do that and prevent gun crimes.

Since I really don't fancy your chances - it would be easier to ban guns!

..Since I really don't fancy your chances ..easy there, Bub...

"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied – it chains us all, irrevocably."

Fix the person, the gun argument is irrelevant.

This argument is just so poor. Different people react to stress, mental disturbance in different ways. Some implode, some explode, some thrive on it, some seem immune to it etc etc. There's no 'fix' for it.

There was no stable thought process going through this guy's head. His reaction was one of anguish and violence, so he examined his environment to see how best he could express it. Hand guns are easy to use, accessible, portable, efficient and above all EXPRESSIVE. What do you think all the pouting was about in those videos?

These arguments about toothbrushes and knives are just plain silly. If Steven Seagal went nuts then maybe it's relevant. However people are not marching into our schools/colleges with toothbrushes are they, they're using guns! Saying that this is co-incidence is just plain fantasy.

We got a very sick kid who was never committed even though he was classed as suicidal. We got gun shops selling guns to people with recent bad mental health problems. We got colleges not monitoring their known suicidal students.

Now can someone please explain to me how the environment does not take a hand in this?

...Now can someone please explain to me how the environment does not take a hand in this?he was upset about global warming, too?:confused:

I've been reading through the threads. The Americans are grasping at straws to protect their gun loving life, by equating it to radical acts of terrorism etc. The British are questioning whether time is right for a change - or is it too late?
We hear (on the BBC news) that it took 30 mins for this chap to arm himself, the only check was to see if he had a criminal record.

Why are there no Americans here who can say - yes, the law needs to be changed?

Every day there are 86 (average) people killed in the USA by guns. Thats a jumbo jet full every 5 days. Why is this so different? because 32 of the 86 happened in the same place?

When the funerals are all done and America has finished "grieving":rolleyes: it will be business as usual, nothing will change and pretty soon another person will want to be the next mass killer - will buy a gun and do the same.

There was some American chap on who said all the kids should have had guns to protect themselves - why not? lets get the USA back to the O.K. corral days

160 Iraqi's killed in one act, did that get on the US TV?

Col

The laws need to be changed - :)

Edit: Yes we saw the Iraq news - ;)

The laws need to be changed - :)

Edit: Yes we saw the Iraq news - ;)

Ok. At the risk of angering you again for daring to ask questions

1) would you give up your guns totally if the government asked for voluntary de-arming?

2) What's worse 32 US people killed by a crazed killer? - or 160 Iraqi's killed by a crazed killer?

3) Why do the 32 get masses of airplay when the 160 get a mention as a lower story?

Col

What is the purpose of owning a gun in the US?

When are you lawfully allowed to use it to shoot someone else?

Ok. At the risk of angering you again for daring to ask questions

1) would you give up your guns totally if the government asked for voluntary de-arming?

2) What's worse 32 US people killed by a crazed killer? - or 160 Iraqi's killed by a crazed killer?

3) Why do the 32 get masses of airplay when the 160 get a mention as a lower story?

Col

1. No
2. They're both bad.
3. 32 don't get killed every day in this manner in the town next door while they've been killing each other in the middle east for as long as I can remember - Just my best guess...

What is the purpose of owning a gun in the US?

When are you lawfully allowed to use it to shoot someone else?

1. Depends on the owner I suppose. :confused:
2. Self defense - ?

What I mean is whats the argument for a normal law abiding person to have a gun?

And what kind of threat do you need to be under to legally justify the use of a gun.

What I mean is whats the argument for a normal law abiding person to have a gun?Hunting, collecting, protection...


And what kind of threat do you need to be under to legally justify the use of a gun.Fear of imminent death of self or the safety of your family


EDIT: upon further consideration, I would like to point out that normal, law-abiding citizens are not the ones shooting people...

1. No
2. They're both bad.
3. 32 don't get killed every day in this manner in the town next door while they've been killing each other in the middle east for as long as I can remember - Just my best guess...

Then nothing will change in the USA as far as gun control goes. You will continue to get these massacres and you will continue to feign surprise when it happens. No-one that I've met is at all surprised by it. The response is "well, thats America for you"

I hope the 86 killed today by the gun get as much media coverage as the 32 are.

My opinion (which I know you hate and is worthless) is that Americans will say things like this is "shocking", "terrible" "we pray for them" - but will do nothing to aleviate the problem.

Good luck USA, and may your god go with you

Col

Good luck USA, and may your god go with you

Col

Maybe someday we will get to live in nation as perfect as you think you live in. ;)

Hunting, collecting, protection...


Fear of imminent death of self or the safety of your family


EDIT: upon further consideration, I would like to point out that normal, law-abiding citizens are not the ones shooting people...

The protection one may have some merit, buy who are you protecting yourself from, doing what and when?

The hunting I have no real opinion on - for food OK I guess, but how many of the guns out there are used for hunting for food. Hunting for fun - I would say anyone shooting animals for fun is exactly who you don't want to have a gun.

Collecting - its not an argument really, and again I would question the mental stability of someone who collected guns. (Maybe historic ones - but to collect new killing devices seems a little odd to me)


I could be persuaded on the protection though, is there any evidence that it makes you safer, does crime come down as gun ownership goes up, or vice versa? I presume the gun crime over there is proportionally lower than here due to the prevelence of guns and their protective qualities? More protection from being a victim should mean less victims shouldn't it?

Maybe someday we will get to live in nation as perfect as you think you live in. ;)

That is not the issue and you know it. We are discussing American gun laws (or lack of them)

The UK is not perfect and I never said it was. We have many problems here.

Fortunately we do not have 86 killed by the gun in a YEAR, not just a day.

Now go back to playing action man and shooting innocent bambies. But when you look through the sights, try seeing an innocent student and question if it's right to have a gun.

Col

Hunting for fun - I would say anyone shooting animals for fun is exactly who you don't want to have a gun.



steady Paul - there's a grass about:rolleyes:

Col

This hunting thing - a bit of stalking of your prey then a violent death or two - I think the unfortunate Korean born US bred fella was in trouble for both of these.:confused:

I feel sorry for him and his family too, its a shame noone could help him before it came to what it did. And his poor family have to live with it.:(

The protection one may have some merit...?Everyone has different circumstances. Some say home protection (and some neighborhoods, I'd agree with them). I used to own a business and make large cash deposits every night and carried a concealed automatic (with the permit). I have a brother in-law who used to be the Cooler in a local bar and carried not so much for his time at work, but for after hours. The hunting ...I agree with that. You don't need a .30 caliber automatic to hunt deer and the type of individual that enjoys the killing is not the type of person you want having a gun. I personally find the meat to be lower in fat than anything you get in the store, with no hormones or other chemicals to worry about. It ends up being a lot cheaper in the long run as well.Collecting ...People collect all kinds of weird stuff, guns are comparatively normal (compared to potato chips that look like Jesus, anyway:D ). You could make the case that if it's only for show it should be rendered mechanically unuseable, but collectors will tell you that decreases the value. I happen to have a couple of guns that belonged to my grandfather that are so old and neglected they are unuseable, but I keep them for sentimental value.
I could be persuaded on the protection though, is there any evidence that it makes you safer, does crime come down as gun ownership goes up, or vice versa? I presume the gun crime over there is proportionally lower than here due to the prevelence of guns and their protective qualities?There were four young ne'er-do-wells that invaded the home of a "quiet-fellow" in the next county about 6 months ago. They were armed and the guy was in genuine fear for the safety of his family...I don't remember the exact sequence, but there was apparently an altercation prior to the gunfire. Anyway, he retrieved his pistol and shot all of them. I think one of the punks survived after a stint in the hospital, but the crime rate went down in that area. You could either assume that he killed the perpetrators or the remaining criminals began to think better of it.

This hunting thing - a bit of stalking of your prey then a violent death or two -

The sight of the blood spurting out of a nearly dead animal must be a turn on I guess. Then leave it do die in agony. It's what US men are made of, they have to prove themselves I suppose.

Col

steady Paul - there's a grass about:rolleyes:

Col

Not anymore ass-hole - ;)

There were four young ne'er-do-wells that invaded the home of a "quiet-fellow" in the next county about 6 months ago. They were armed and the guy was in genuine fear for the safety of his family...I don't remember the exact sequence, but there was apparently an altercation prior to the gunfire. Anyway, he retrieved his pistol and shot all of them. I think one of the punks survived after a stint in the hospital, but the crime rate went down in that area. You could either assume that he killed the perpetrators or the remaining criminals began to think better of it.


We are almost in agreement - on collecting and hunting, and I'm for the protection if it works -

Your story - what were "They were armed" armed with?

I missed this Grass thing whats this all about?

The sight of the blood spurting out of a nearly dead animal must be a turn on I guess. Then leave it do die in agony. It's what US men are made of, they have to prove themselves I suppose.If you actually went with a real hunter, I believe you would find the experience to be nowhere near as brutal as you make it out to be. And nothing like that crap they put on TV for the rednecks to enjoy, either:rolleyes:

Not anymore ass-hole - ;)

May I remind you that making personal remarks like this is not forum etiquette.

Therefore, I shall consider reporting this to the administrator

Col

Your story - what were "They were armed" armed with?as with most perpetrators of such offenses, illegally obtained automatic pistols, serial numbers filed off, untraceable. These guys don't go to the local gun shop and browse the bargain bins, they buy them on the street for $25, use them for nefarious purposes and sell them to the next punk for $25 and the cycle continues.

The sight of the blood spurting out of a nearly dead animal must be a turn on I guess. Then leave it do die in agony. It's what US men are made of, they have to prove themselves I suppose.

Col
As opposed to having sport and running animals down on horses with dogs, and then after the dogs have had there fun tearing them apart being "humane" and putting them out of their misery.

As opposed to having sport and running animals down on horses with dogs, and then after the dogs have had there fun tearing them apart being "humane" and putting them out of their misery.

Foxhunting has been banned and is monitored.

Col

You are all missing the big picture. if you ban gun , people who want them will still be able to get guns, they will just be going to the criminals and the thugs, the underground elements of society to get them. The majority of the time, crimes are committed with illegally obtained firearms. the perpetrators of these type of acts, VT Columbine etc. would have found a way to get a firearm one way or the other. I do think that there needs to be stricter purchase measures in place. a complete background check, even if they did "voluntarily" go to the institution.

but that is just my opinion

Foxhunting has been banned and is monitored.

Col

People hunting has also been banned and is monitored as well.

and you do have to go to classes and have a license to hunt as well. and there are also game wardens who patrol and look for poachers and those who are breaking the law.

So when I holiday in the US - should I carry a gun for protection?

Just getting in on the back end of this with my opinion

Banning guns is basically pointless. That does nothing to tackle illegal ownership. It only descriminates aginst the legal owners

Sure have guns for a purpose.
Define purpose. Sport. Hunting, Targets its all sport of a sort.
Be licensed and nobody needs an AK47 for sport. So be sensible about what guns can be legally held

Annual assessment of individual and inspection of storage location becomes mandatory for licence to be continued.

All reports of inappropriate use or threat of use to be investigated. If found to be true then suspension of licence min 12 months or complete revoking as deemed appropriate

The rules basically is If in doubt licence revoked.

Crimes in which guns are used need to be treated very hard indeed. Use of a gun in crime doubles sentence for example

Remember that a Gun is not dangerous in itself.

Leave a gun alone and it will not harm anybody

Its only when it gets into the hands of a person that the danger potential exist

L

Edit add

You cannot legislate for everything and all the while there are guns people will get hurt. The murder of innocents is particularly sad but will happen all the while there are objects that can inflict fatal damage to people. We do not live in a perfect world and the human being is at best a mongrel with many character variations, not all good

I still want to know if I should get a gun for my holidays?? Seriously - I'm off to Denver and Washington to see a mate - sometime next year.

I still want to know if I should get a gun for my holidays?? Seriously - I'm off to Denver and Washington to see a mate - sometime next year.If you stay away from the crack houses in DC and the Bronco's linemen, you should be fine...:rolleyes:

I still want to know if I should get a gun for my holidays?? Seriously - I'm off to Denver and Washington to see a mate - sometime next year.

I've visited the Stat