This thread is to spur off your ideas on religion of all kinds.

Personally im athiest. My thoughts on religion are that it makes people happy believing that they are doing gods will even if they have to obey rules, for us athiests we dont have to obey rules but we dont feel the happiness of a believer. So all in all a religious person is no better or worse off than a non-religious. The only reason i dislike relgion is beacuse it creates two types of people, believers and non-believers, which in term will cause conflict between the two, such as religious people trying to push it on others.
I only dislike the givers of religion (priests, bishops etc.), not the followers. Also i as i mentioned in another post some churches have effpost on dontaion machines in the church, which i think is just ridiculous.

So how do you categorize those of us who, while we do not follow a structured religion, and are therefore not religious, do believe in something, a higher order, karma, whatever, and are therefore very spiritual with regards to our position in the grand scheme of things. I cannot place myself into the same bucket with the Athiests, but I also cannot be grouped with those who follow, in my wife's terms "a spook in the sky". Think "Native American"

How about those that maybe do not follow a structured religion but would like to hedge their bets in that they nevertheless consider themselves to be Christian (or whatever) in the manner in which they live their lives.

L

Ah, but how long would it be, if polled for the religion of choice, until Jedi shows up here? While definitely not subscribing to the "I wanna be Luke Skywalker" school of thought, I would probably hedge my bets that Jedi is close enough without pedantry to panthesim - in which I would like to believe.

I've made it no big secret around here that I am a Christian and, while I love the church I'm attending, I can see where there are instances of organized religion becoming corrupt. Such as the problem that the Catholic Church is facing with so many of their priests being child molesters and their covering up the problem rather than confronting it. :rolleyes: I can see how someone could get soured on religion when faced with something like that.

What I am about to say is not aimed at anybody on this forum as I don't know them inorder for me to make a personal statement.

From my little spot in the great scheme of things it would appear that religion makes good people better, bad people worse , and the vast majority go along for the ride either because they have no choice, are brainwashed, or are hedging their bets.

To me choosing the right religion is a bit of a post code lottery, and those I know a bit about seem too flawed for me to consider them as any more than man made myths.

Brian

it would appear that religion makes good people better, bad people worse , and the vast majority go along for the ride either because they have no choice, are brainwashed, or are hedging their bets.
Brian

Yup that's about it. Spot on really

L

or are hedging their bets.

I can understand what you're saying, but if someone is just hedging their bets then they're not really believers, are they? :D

are brainwashed,

I can also understand this comment coming from the perspective of some of the Middle Eastern countries where it is illegal (or otherwise unheard of) to practise anything but Islam. At least over here we have the opportunity and the means to study different religions and make our own choices about what we want to believe. There are people who are taught a belief system by their parents but with the exception of extremely rare cases they are still able to make up their own minds by adulthood.

To me choosing the right religion is a bit of a post code lottery, and those I know a bit about seem too flawed for me to consider them as any more than man made myths.

Brian

Most likely because the human mind is incapable of seeing the true nature of the universe. Even as science attempts to measure it; the fabric is still elusive.

Since we can’t comprehend the nature of the universe, we certainly cannot comprehend...its creator.

So over the millennia we have clung to our small view, as the only righteous one, and have been willing on many occasions to kill for it as well.

So over the millennia we have clung to our small view, as the only righteous one,.
Not all of us

[QUOTE=....doing gods will even if they have to obey rules, for us atheists we dont have to obey rules but we dont feel the happiness of a believer......[/QUOTE]

Greyowls,

You can lead a moral life, doing what you believe to be right, without this being inconsistent with atheism. An atheist is not necessarily a bad person, although some (only some mind you!) fundamental Christian or Muslim types might think otherwise.

As a 'Born Again Atheist' who has toyed with being a 'None Practicing atheist' and a 'Lapsed Atheist' at various times, but only for effect, I can tell you that there is an internal reward for doing what you believe to be right, making apologies or restitution when you have done wrong etc. There may be no orgasmic 'god' experience (incidentally, as far as I have read, very few proclaimed Christians claim to have 'felt' god) but you can have a base that supports you in life.

Leaving aside the extremes of both directions, the modern (western) world seems rather relaxed about what people believe. Certainly, the significance of religion has been dwindling in the UK for centuries with a recent article I read claiming that about 15% of the population consider themselves to be 'active' Christians if I remember the gist of it right. In other words it is a minority, if vocal, 'sport'.

North American Christians seem to be far more active and vocal and appear to take the religion into areas that are considered strictly secular in the UK such as general government, health provision, education, etc.

The following is not meant to offend, it is my observations of how things go on where I live. If there are readers with different perspectives, I Will be pleased to hear them.

I am currently resident in the Middle East and get an upfront view of Muslims in the form of Gulf Arabs as well as Indian/Pakistani ex pats. By and large, the Muslims I encounter take the religion very seriously and very literally. A lot of the observance is based on fear of the 'fiery pit' - I'm not joking, they really believe that sinners will roast in hell. A curious by-product of this literal religiosity is that some locals use Islamic 'get out of jail free cards'. The Islamic religion is a strict code for living your life and how you behave with a virtual ledger for the observances and sins, very much like an accounts book - in the red and you're going to hell, in the black and you are headed to the place of the prophet (MPBUH - as they say in these parts) with your 17 virgins. So far so good. Unfortunately, there are several ways that a Muslim can virtually wipe out all past indiscretions by doing relatively easy religious observances. The result is that there are many truly awful things done, incompatible with any religion, by devout Muslims who then make amends with the 'boss' and don't seem to think that they have done anything very wrong at all. These sorts of behaviours reinforce my atheism.

I see what you you mean Keith.

Time has changed many things and as we all know nothing lasts forever. The continuous increase in science is makeing religion seem more and more unbelievable. Other relgions such as buddhism are knows as "cool" relgions because they have hardly any restrictions and rules other than if you think its ok then its ok. Obviously this highly appeals to societies youth alowing them a belief and full freedom. Everyone has some kind of belief in themselfs and the way the world works, I am a spiritual/science believer so i feed on facts and good intentions, i dont believe there is a good or bad and i like to have and open mind about everything. I kling to the belief that my thoughts and ideas are far greater and advanced than one simple religion.

Not all of us

You've adapted a more righteous one.

...such as buddhism are knows as "cool" relgions because they have hardly any restrictions and rules other than if you think its ok then its ok. :confused: :confused: :confused: Perhaps you should investigate further.
I kling to the belief that my thoughts and ideas are far greater and advanced than [my grammar or spelling]...(try as I might, I couldn't resist:D )

That last bit comes off a bit on the arrogant side, don't you think?

Other relgions such as buddhism are knows as "cool" relgions because they have hardly any restrictions and rules other than if you think its ok then its ok.
Perhaps you should investigate further

I think they are seen as "cool", or possibly more properly as less zealous or fundamentalist, because history doesn't seem to be as littered with battles in the name of Buddha. Where 'movie Buddhist monks' battle, they do so in a stereotypical reflective manner - putting off violence until there is no other option.

Truth or not, it is how - in modern culture - the media portrays religious people that shapes our perception of the religion itself

Truth or not, it is how - in modern culture - the media portrays religious people that shapes our perception of the religion itself

Yes on one side we have those who with god on their side invade countries and attack them with bombs and bullets leading to the deaths of countless thousands of innocent people.
On the other side we have those who attack unarmed people in the name of their god and where the women are so subjugated and brainwashed they have to dress like Darth Vader, great choices eh?:rolleyes:

... and where the women are so subjugated and brainwashed they have to dress like Darth Vader, great choices eh?:rolleyes:

You being Jedi find this particularily disturbing do you not? hmmm? Yes? heh heh...

You being Jedi find this particularily disturbing do you not? hmmm? Yes? heh heh...
Of course, it represents evil:p

I didn't check the survey box because my answer is none of the above, all of the above, or a time-variant combination of some of the above.

Having now muddied up the waters, the truth is that I don't know whether there is a God or a god (little 'g') or a bunch of gods (all little 'g') or a big fat zero. (Agnosticism, here I come...)

What bothers me is that religion is INHERENTLY corrupt when it preys upon the fears of less intelligent people. And we all know that it does. When a religion stops someone from using the greatest gift their ... God ... could ever have given them - or the greatest evolutionary development known to Man - their brains - then religion WEAKENS our society.

When Roman Catholicism criticized Galileo, it was wrong to do so - but he represented a threat to their power in a world of relatively illiterate people. And that alone proves corruption. If you can be threatened by science, you are obvious AWARE that you have something to hide. The fact that you then hide it proves your corrupt nature.

Islam also bothers me, for a different reason and the same reason. Blindness to a modified reality. The world is an engine of change, but when major religions reject that change, they reject exposure that would allow their own people to better themselves. They don't want to risk power loss. Which is why the bitter sectarian violence in various Islamic countries. Which is why so many Islamic clerics call for a jihad - meaning a bloody war, when the prophet himself meant it as an internal struggle with one's self.

Another reason that we know religion is corrupt is when it is used to foment hatred. Such as the terrible hatred aimed at homosexuals. I cannot reveal names because the person in question is not "out" to the world, but one of my friends got burned when he dared reveal his preferences. To me, he's just a guy who won't be competing with me for women, no problem. To others, this quiet, shy, self-effacing guy with a talent for engineering drawing got FIRED because he was gay. And the worst part is that the accusation was the most improbable event you could imagine. But because there were no witnesses, it's a he-said, she-said.... well, ... he-said, he-said situation. And it is all because people who are DIFFERENT are soundly castigated in churches these days. To which I say, learn love. Wasn't that the message of the central figure of Christianity?

All of this makes me sad because I don't have any answers regarding whether there is or isn't a big-G God. But if He is so hateful, so vengeful, so petty as that, then He doesn't deserve the capital letters. Or any other special type of reverence. Because that isn't the action of a God. That kind of hatred is the action of a petty, vain, foolish, vengeful MAN who CLAIMS to have heard a message from God. Only MEN are that low.

I've made it no big secret around here that I am a Christian and, while I love the church I'm attending, I can see where there are instances of organized religion becoming corrupt. Such as the problem that the Catholic Church is facing with so many of their priests being child molesters and their covering up the problem rather than confronting it. :rolleyes: I can see how someone could get soured on religion when faced with something like that.

The current policy of the Roman Catholic Church WORLDWIDE is to turn child molesting priests over to the civil authorities. The cover-up days are over.

By the way, Star Wars is a work of FICTION.

By the way, Star Wars is a work of FICTION.
So is the bible

So is the bible

That's funny because secular scholars find it to be an accurate history.

You’re so predictable, when I first read that (about the Star Wars being fiction) I almost made the comment that Rich would soon post that the bible was fiction. I guess I continue to hold out faith in you Rich.

I cannot reveal names because the person in question is not "out" to the world, but one of my friends got burned when he dared reveal his preferences.

Dang :eek: I thought they just excommunicated you nowadays :p

That's funny because secular scholars find it to be an accurate history.


Accurately accounting talking donkeys? :confused:

The current policy of the Roman Catholic Church WORLDWIDE is to turn child molesting priests over to the civil authorities. The cover-up days are over.

How comforting...:rolleyes:

By the way, Star Wars is a work of FICTION.

...and is acknowledged as such.

And it is all because people who are DIFFERENT are soundly castigated in churches these days.

How sad. This doesn't happen in my church and I wouldn't go to one where it did. It is true that people of (ahem) lesser intelligence can be "brainwashed" by a church leader who happens to also be a bigot.

To which I say, learn love. Wasn't that the message of the central figure of Christianity?

Exactly. Which is why churches that preach hatred of gays or others are not churches preaching the true Christian message.

All of this makes me sad because I don't have any answers regarding whether there is or isn't a big-G God. But if He is so hateful, so vengeful, so petty as that, then He doesn't deserve the capital letters. Or any other special type of reverence. Because that isn't the action of a God. That kind of hatred is the action of a petty, vain, foolish, vengeful MAN who CLAIMS to have heard a message from God. Only MEN are that low.

You've hit the nail on the head with your last statement. Men are the ones who are imperfect and unfortunately, full of hate. God isn't. To be honest, if that were the message of Christianity I wouldn't want any part of it. However, I know it isn't the true message. You do have to search for the right place to attend though. I know it's harder than it should be to find a good church. :(

How comforting...:rolleyes:

It's only taken decades and a severe decline in the reputation of the church to make it happen. :rolleyes:

That's funny because secular scholars find it to be an accurate history.

That's why Hollywood's made more films about the supposed events in the bible than Star Wars flicks:rolleyes:

I hesitate to comment on this subject cause this is the very subject that causes some folks here to be unable to have a mature adult like disagreement.

I really don’t how to answer the question with its choices. I believe that religion in and of it’s self has become corrupt. Churches have mainly become a social club. Those that represent it have become poor representatives of it, which I believe is why so many folks cannot see any good in it and do not what to have any part of it. The problem with religion is that so many man made rules have been brought into it and whatever man gets involved in usually gets messed up. I do however feel that a relationship is different than religion. Most folks that I encounter make the Bible say what they want it to say and create God to be what they want Him to be. Neither stacks up to what the Bible itself says. I’m sure there are plenty of things in the Bible that folks here consider to be harsh or something that a “loving God” wouldn’t do. For me I take the Bible for what it says. I don’t try to make it say something it doesn’t nor do I make apologies for what it does say. The Bible does not teach to hate homosexuals but it does say that God hates the sin of homosexuality (see Romans chapter 1 for an example) it is sad that folks translate that into hate the individual but this is nothing more than someone being a poor representative of what the Bible does say. It calls it a sin. Just the same as in calls adultery, fornication and other sexual sins, a sin. I do believe there is a God and I believe that God showed the best example of love by sending His Son to die in my place. Unfortunately, there are bad representatives of this message, me included, but that doesn’t mean the message itself is a bunch of fair tales.

If this opens up a can of worms for the sarcastic darts to begin, then so be it, but you asked so I tried to answer as honestly as those that claim there is no God.

and I believe that God showed the best example of love by sending His Son to die in my place.

Why 2,000 years ago, why not during the horrors of two world wars?

Why 2,000 years ago, why not during the horrors of two world wars?

Some would say that it suited the roman empire to install a public figurehead that preached submission. Give up all your material possessions and turn the other cheek in return for a fantastic afterlife. Of course the planned effect was the dumbing down of the local populace and transfer of wealth to the empire. That's the carrot and all you need as the stick is the threat of hellfire to encourage the sceptics.

I'd like to pose one question. Where is the condemnation of slavery in the scriptures?

that doesn’t mean the message itself is a bunch of fair tales. For you it may be, but for me it is left open. There is not evidence to show that there really is a god, but as there is also no evidence that god does not exsist. Your god is just as real as the egyptians belived their gods were.

A battle of conversion is how the relgion game is played.

That last bit comes off a bit on the arrogant side, don't you think?

No, it's just what I want to believe...

Some would say that it suited the roman empire to install a public figurehead that preached submission. Give up all your material possessions and turn the other cheek in return for a fantastic afterlife. Of course the planned effect was the dumbing down of the local populace and transfer of wealth to the empire. That's the carrot and all you need as the stick is the threat of hellfire to encourage the sceptics.

I'd like to pose one question. Where is the condemnation of slavery in the scriptures?

Some could say that but then the logic of it would have to be questioned, since the Roman Empire was killing Christians by the thousands. Using them as torches for their roads. As a sporting event in the coliseums. Dragging them behind chariots and etc. How much sense would it make to kill the very cash cow that you intend to soak the money from?

As far as your question on slavery. The Old Testament is essentially Jewish history and since the Jews have been enslaved more than any race known to man, then it really deals more with how to be as a slave. The New Testament really doesn’t deal much with it as a subject. There are mentions of slaves and masters but that is more in reference to employee and employer. How to treat your fellow man is in the Bible and owning another man as a slave would not be a good representation of how a fellow human should be treated.

For you it may be, but for me it is left open. There is not evidence to show that there really is a god, but as there is also no evidence that god does not exsist. Your god is just as real as the egyptians belived their gods were.

A battle of conversion is how the relgion game is played.

I can see the logic of why you would word it this way. I do believe there is much more evidence to Biblical accounts of history, but it's usually not going to be anything someone who is already a critic of is going to go along with. If scientist or archeologist find something that would back up what is said in the Bible then there are alternate arguments made up pretty quick afterwards to down play anything that is written in it. Men find what they are looking for. If a man chooses to believe the Bible as a fairy tale then a fairy tale is what it’s going to be. If they choose to say they don’t believe it then not believing it is what they are going to do. I have met self-proclaiming atheist but I have not found one yet that basis their decision on facts about God or the Bible. When asked why they don’t believe the closest to a factual answer that I will get is that I just don’t believe. It would seem to me that if someone was going to make such a hard stand against something then they would at least know a good deal about what their standing against. My impression is that men claim there is no God because they don’t want there to be a God, especially one that may have something to say about how they are living.

I can see the logic of why you would word it this way. I do believe there is much more evidence to Biblical accounts of history, but it's usually not going to be anything someone who is already a critic of is going to go along with. If scientist or archeologist find something that would back up what is said in the Bible then there are alternate arguments made up pretty quick afterwards to down play anything that is written in it. Men find what they are looking for. If a man chooses to believe the Bible as a fairy tale then a fairy tale is what it’s going to be. If they choose to say they don’t believe it then not believing it is what they are going to do. I have met self-proclaiming atheist but I have not found one yet that basis their decision on facts about God or the Bible. When asked why they don’t believe the closest to a factual answer that I will get is that I just don’t believe. It would seem to me that if someone was going to make such a hard stand against something then they would at least know a good deal about what their standing against. My impression is that men claim there is no God because they don’t want there to be a God, especially one that may have something to say about how they are living.

I see your view, and this may be true.
I have been baptised, i have been taught religion for 7 years in school, I have never been to church and prayed but i have prayed and belived in god and his religion, but at around 10 years old it just faded away. I dont even know if my parents believe in god still. I feel it is a way of life that needs to be in use otherwise there becomes no need to believe and 'he' is forgotten. Not long after, many other influences change our allready miniscule beliefs into new self attuned beliefs that are changed and updated all the time.

Some could say that but then the logic of it would have to be questioned, since the Roman Empire was killing Christians by the thousands. Using them as torches for their roads. As a sporting event in the coliseums. Dragging them behind chariots and etc. How much sense would it make to kill the very cash cow that you intend to soak the money from?

Well the answer to that one is fairly simple. It's because of the mal-treatment that the populace needed dumbing down. From a roman point of view: We like feeding christians to lions but we don't want a revolution, so lets find some rhetoric that will persuade them that if they keep quiet then they'll be rewarded after they're dead. If they don't then they're in danger of hellfire.

EDIT: The parable of the rich man and Lazarus encapsulates this.

The New Testament really doesn’t deal much with it as a subject.

but the Old Testament did big time. The issue of slavery was still pertinent and yet completely ignored. Indeed one could argue that it was encouraged to forget about the past battles against slavery.

"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."

John 1: 17

My impression is that men claim there is no God because they don’t want there to be a God, . . . . . ..
If there was at least a shred of evidence that there was a God or Christ or whatever then more people would believe it.
The scribblings of some lunatic in a book is not definitive evidence.

Anyway, as I have said before, its a bit of a sod if you follow christianity to the letter and Hindu turns out to be the "true" religion - what a choker:D

Anyway, arn't there 2 gods in America? - cars and money - thats it;)

Col

If there was at least a shred of evidence that there was a God or Christ or whatever then more people would believe it.
Col

That's funny Col, cause at last count there are at least 1,000,000,000 Christians and the same number or so of Muslims, all believing in I Am; or Allah if you prefer.

Anyway, arn't there 2 gods in America? - cars and money - thats it;)

Col

I thought the gods were guns and money? Or is your expert knowledge waning?

I'm just curious to know - out of the posters on here who have a religion (and by that I mean have been subscribed to a religion at some point in their lives, no matter what their current beliefs) - what percentage are Christian, or a derivative, or Muslim, or Buddhist, or Hindu (or any other - sorry, those are just the ones I can remember off the top of my head).

It just seems that from the replies so far, the focus has been on the Christian church and its corruption.
It's quite arrogant of Man to expect God (or god - take your pick) to answer our prayers. God is on everyone's side according to those who fight in His name. Which means that if He's got any sense, He's keeping His nose well out of it.

For the record, I don't believe in a God (big-G), but I do believe there is something more in control and more knowledgeable than Man - but it is a silent being, an observer, not a call centre.

That's funny Col, cause at last count there are at least 1,000,000,000 Christians and the same number or so of Muslims, all believing in I Am; or Allah if you prefer.
I know that there are millions who believe in a "christian" fabricated fairy story - I was saying where's the evidence of any such existence of a god or christ person? as far as I know its all heresay.

Just imagine being the geezer who dreamt all this religion stuff up.
You start a story about a "god" or "christ" figure, you make up some simple rules.
Then you say if you don't believe, then you go to "hell" forever. (thats the hook, its peoples insecurity) People believe it because they are gullable.
Then comes the brainwave, you (the people) give me money to enable me to tell others about my story and you giving me money will be like an offering to make you feel cleansed. Then the new people will give me money too and I'll be a millionaire and live a life of luxury

Its a belter of an idea. One of the greatest cons of all time. Actually, its like the hundreds of American tele-evangelists in a way, playing on peoples insecurities and fleecing them of money to live in luxury and contentment.

Then when you go round doing strange things like invading countries and killing people, you just say god said to do it coz god is on my side.


Col

I thought the gods were guns and money? Or is your expert knowledge waning?
no:rolleyes: you keep the gun in the car of course:rolleyes: :D ;)

Col

I'm just curious to know - out of the posters on here who have a religion (and by that I mean have been subscribed to a religion at some point in their lives, no matter what their current beliefs)
Nikky - I spent several years going to a christian church, I got involved with the "senior" members there because my brother-in-law was a deacon.

I just could not believe the hypocritical attitude of them (the members). They despised "non-believers". The treasurer skimmed 10% of the offering. They openly slagged of other members. They had affairs with others wives. They lived a "non-christian" life during the week and became "christians" on sundays. It was awful, and this was a Baptist church.

I gave up because I couldn't live my life as being a hypocritical lie.

Col

I know that there are millions who believe in a "christian" fabricated fairy story - I was saying where's the evidence of any such existence of a god or christ person? as far as I know its all heresay.

Col

I thought there was quite a bit of historical evidence of a person of Christ existing (in Roman documents written at the time etc) . It is just the evidence of the on son of God, etc that is a little hazy.

but I do believe there is something more in control and more knowledgeable than Man - but it is a silent being, an observer, not a call centre.

It's called mother nature;)

It's called mother nature;)

Why is it that atheist can be so religious?

Why is it that atheist can be so religious?
What's religion got to do with mother nature?:confused:

If there was at least a shred of evidence that there was a God or Christ or whatever then more people would believe it.
The scribblings of some lunatic in a book is not definitive evidence.
Col

There is evidence, you just choose to ignore it or attempt to explain them away. Also, the "lunatic who scribbled in a book" must have been pretty lucky to predict so many things that have come true already and schools out on the ones to come. Something like 600 prophecies of Jesus birth over something like a 800 year time span and they all came true, to give one example. Pretty lucky fella to pull that off.

Nikky - I spent several years going to a christian church, I got involved with the "senior" members there because my brother-in-law was a deacon.

I just could not believe the hypocritical attitude of them (the members). They despised "non-believers". The treasurer skimmed 10% of the offering. They openly slagged of other members. They had affairs with others wives. They lived a "non-christian" life during the week and became "christians" on sundays. It was awful, and this was a Baptist church.

I gave up because I couldn't live my life as being a hypocritical lie.

Sounds like rather than finding out what God and His Book had to say you looked at others and they let you down. Man will always let you down, but that doesn't prove anything as far as God and the Bible goes. Just proves that a man can claim to be anything but that does make him what he claims to be.

Well the answer to that one is fairly simple. It's because of the mal-treatment that the populace needed dumbing down. From a roman point of view: We like feeding christians to lions but we don't want a revolution, so lets find some rhetoric that will persuade them that if they keep quiet then they'll be rewarded after they're dead. If they don't then they're in danger of hellfire.

EDIT: The parable of the rich man and Lazarus encapsulates this.

Most theologians believe that the rich man and Lazarus was probably not a parable.

I guess the Roman Empires plan has worked to a certain degree. Their Empire fell so I guess that didn't work out, but the "dumbing down" of folks did work, cause there are a large number of us less than intelligent folks who still buy this made up story hook, line and stinker.


but the Old Testament did big time. The issue of slavery was still pertinent and yet completely ignored. Indeed one could argue that it was encouraged to forget about the past battles against slavery.

"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."

John 1: 17

I guess I'm not following your point on this one (I have been "dumbed down" you know:D ). I did admit that there are many stories in the Old Testament of slavery, but those stories were talking about the Jews being made slaves. Outside of that I'm not sure the point that your driving at so even the verse you have quoted from John is not fitting in for me, so I guess I need a little more explaination to understand were your driving us to.

What's religion got to do with mother nature?:confused:


Nothing of course.

But atheists seem to be among the most devout in their proclamation of their faith.

Even to the point of being disciples for the spread of non-belief; which by the way takes as much, or more, faith then believing, because one has to ignore the signs of a higher power all around them.

I personally can’t ignore it because I’m an addict, and the only program in the world with any kind of positive track record for the deliverance of alcoholics from the hell of addiction is the AA method, which relies heavily on the “higher power”

So when you believe there is no God, and then you proceed, with all of your power, to convince the world of your enlightened position.

That is religious.

We have AA in this country, they use willpower and therapy, not fairy tales and man's fear of the unknown

Man will always let you down, but that doesn't prove anything as far as God and the Bible goes. .
Didn't God let down 20,000,000 of his followers during WW11?:confused:

Didn't God let down 20,000,000 of his followers during WW11?:confused:

Can't answer a question that I don't understand. How did He do that?

Can't answer a question that I don't understand. How did He do that?
He wasn't there for them

He wasn't there for them

Who were these 20,000,00 followers?

Who were this 20,000,00 followers?
Well there were 6,000,000 Jews to start with, do you need a breakdown of the rest?

Well there were 6,000,000 Jews to start with, do you need a breakdown of the rest?

Yes, I do, cause I didn't know there were that many "believers" fighting in WWII and I really don't know how God let them down, so actually an answer to both would be nice.

Yes, I do, cause I didn't know there were that many "believers" fighting in WWII and I really don't know how God let them down, so actually an answer to both would be nice.
I think we both know that faith in God plummeted after two world wars but more so after the second, surely you can see how I arrive at that statement.
Unless God allowed their sacrifice as some sort of test of their love for him, doesn't sound like a loving deity to me.

We have AA in this country, they use willpower and therapy, not fairy tales and man's fear of the unknown

Man's fear of the unknown?

How does that compute?

I.... i feed on facts and good intentions, i don't believe there is a good or bad and i like to have and open mind about everything......

Greyowlsl,

Although a bit older, I am a father of young children (3 under 4) and this changes your perspective on things. Even as an atheist, I am happy to believe in the concept of evil (in my terms innate 'badness').

Thankfully, the horror stories are rare and so they make the news (if they were common, we wouldn't be told about them) but people do extraordinarily bad things to others, never defensible, but it is at a whole different level when these immoral things are done to the defenceless, such as children.

You are a young guy and, if you are lucky, will not have had too many horrible things in your life. I haven't done badly over my life, but as you move through the world, you meet people who have seen evil first hand. Be alive to the fact that it exists but don't let this knowledge prevent you from living your life to the full.

Man's fear of the unknown?

Yes, that's why he believes in fairy tales

I think we both know that faith in God plummeted after two world wars but more so after the second, surely you can see how I arrive at that statement.
Unless God allowed their sacrifice as some sort of test of their love for him, doesn't sound like a loving deity to me.

I fail to see the connection of two WW and man's faith. Throughout history man's faith in God has had times up and times down. The Dark Ages and then follows the reformation age. In one age it looks like it's plummeting in the other it looks like it's taking over the world. More to the point, though, what do you think a God (if one existed) should have done during these wars? Man started them. If He butts in then their are plenty that would have the old puppet on a string argument. If He doesn't butt in then He simply does not care. I doubt seriously that it was a "test of their love for Him." What makes you think He did let man down. What if there is a God and He did do something in WWII? Have you ever thought about what this world would be like today if Germany, Japan, and Italy would have gotten their way?

Why would God have let Germany and Japan gettheir way?
Why did he not insist that man loved and worshiped his fellow man and not himself?

Why would God have let Germany and Japan gettheir way?
Why did he not insist that man loved and worshiped his fellow man and not himself?

In my opinion, His actions speak for themselves and He didn't allow them to get their way. God does command that man love his fellow man (not worship) but He does not make robots out of man, so it is up to man to obey what He has commanded. If God steps in on mans life and takes over and forces him to do as he has been commanded, then God has made puppets or robots and mans complaint is that God never lets him do anything on his own accord, however if God commands man to do something and man refuses to obey, then He takes the heat with arguments of "why isn't God doing something about this?" God did not start the WW, man did. Man did not obey what was commanded of him to love his neighbor as himself so he attacks other men, then we humans turn around and want this God to fix all these screw ups we've made. I don't believe that God expected the UK to just get blown off the map so now they have to defend themselves from an aggressor who has decided to be disobedient.

If there truly is a God and He created all things, then would it not make sense for this God to insist that He be worshipped by His creation?

Greyowlsl,

Although a bit older, I am a father of young children (3 under 4) and this changes your perspective on things. Even as an atheist, I am happy to believe in the concept of evil (in my terms innate 'badness').

Thankfully, the horror stories are rare and so they make the news (if they were common, we wouldn't be told about them) but people do extraordinarily bad things to others, never defensible, but it is at a whole different level when these immoral things are done to the defenceless, such as children.

You are a young guy and, if you are lucky, will not have had too many horrible things in your life. I haven't done badly over my life, but as you move through the world, you meet people who have seen evil first hand. Be alive to the fact that it exists but don't let this knowledge prevent you from living your life to the full.

Yes but you are older and more intune with the world and as part of it you must believe in the norm. Your experience with living in this world if far greater than mine but you also have sealed off your mind to the imaginitive and unknown posibilities, you fit nicely with everyone else. I however have less experience so i still take in the possibilities of things that seem totaly unlikely, but i like it. Such as i believe we are the third most inteligent lifeform on earth. Guessing by you, it would be unthinkable for you to even consider that theory. All people do bad things this does not make them a bad person. According to Law half our population is a criminal.

If there truly is a God and He created all things, then would it not make sense for this God to insist that He be worshipped by His creation?

No, I didn't insist my family worshiped me

No, I didn't insist my family worshiped me

Poor example. If you fashioned them from dust and breathed life into them then forgive me for saying a poor example, otherwise I'm pretty sure that you did it the same way all of fathers did. The only part you played is fertilizing the egg so that means you only had 1/2 a part in causing a life to be formed.

Such as i believe we are the third most inteligent lifeform on earth.

And what are the first two?

And what are the first two?

Whales, then dolphins.;) :D

Whales, then dolphins.;) :D
And you base this on what?

And you base this on what?

Their ability to not corrupt and take over the world such as we do. Their serenity and connection with the world and nature. Whales are so great yet almost do nothing to hinder nature. Dolphins see us as a source of attention and easy food. They have an imence ability to learn and we have imence ability to create. Whales a prey of nothing but us (well japs actually), and preditor of nothing but bacteria. They do not need bombs and technology. Although this may sound ridiculous, but it's no less true than there being a god.

Their ability to not corrupt and take over the world such as we do. Their serenity and connection with the world and nature. Whales are so great yet almost do nothing to hinder nature. Dolphins see us as a source of attention and easy food. They have an imence ability to learn and we have imence ability to create. Whales a prey of nothing but us (well japs actually), and preditor of nothing but bacteria. They do not need bombs and technology. Although this may sound ridiculous, but it's no less true than there being a god.



Their ability to exist within their environment is not a testimony to their intelligence, rather our inability to control our wanton destruction is indeed testimony to our stupidity. Which as you know, stupidity is not connected to intelligence. The ecosystem of the planet is replete with animals of very low intelligence existing within the confines of their habitat.

Actually baleen whales eat zooplankton which is a mixture of nearly microscopic marine animals.

Orcas which are dolphins prey on just about any marine life large enough to attract their attention.

I’m not disputing the possibility of these majestic marine mammals being more intelligent than us, but I’m afraid your arguments are week for their case.

As for the possibility of God, It is only ridicules if you choose to except that all forces in the universe have their basis in mater. Which is very far from being proven, at this point, in our understanding of the nature of things.

At the elemental level there exist theories that the fundamental building block of atoms (matter) is merely momentum without mass. Which translates to, all mater is but a dream held together by a force, or maybe a just a word.

Most theologians believe that the rich man and Lazarus was probably not a parable.

Well the non-universalists anyway ;)


I guess the Roman Empires plan has worked to a certain degree. Their Empire fell so I guess that didn't work out, but the "dumbing down" of folks did work, cause there are a large number of us less than intelligent folks who still buy this made up story hook, line and stinker.

Well first off, I wasn't wanting to suggest that Christians are dumb. If I came across that way, then I apologise. Anyway, the roman empire lasted for several hundred years. Conclusion: They knew how to suppress their opponents. I'm just saying that this kind of rhetoric would not have been beyond them.


Outside of that I'm not sure the point that your driving at so even the verse you have quoted from John is not fitting in for me, so I guess I need a little more explaination to understand were your driving us to.

The new testament was the new covenant. The replacement of Moses's law with the preachings of Jesus. The old covenant described rebellion. The release of the tribes of Israel from Egypt and Moses's defiance of authority. All this has been replaced with submission and acceptance of poverty.

I'm playing devil's advocate here. Just toying with the idea that the turn the other cheek instead of the eye for the eye could have been designed by an authority wanting a submissive populace.

"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth'. But I say to you, do not resist an evildoer. If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:38-39)

Do not resist an evil-doer could actually mean let the romans have their fun, perhaps?

Their ability to exist within their environment is not a testimony to their intelligence, rather our inability to control our wanton destruction is indeed testimony to our stupidity. Which as you know, stupidity is not connected to intelligence. The ecosystem of the planet is replete with animals of very low intelligence existing within the confines of their habitat.

At the elemental level there exist theories that the fundamental building block of atoms (matter) is merely momentum without mass. Which translates to, all mater is but a dream held together by a force, or maybe a just a word.

The possibility of a thought must not be explained for it is the very thing that makes us human. Theories about god, matter and intelligence are all things we will not know therefore they must not be explained only thought. A few decades ago we had a very different impression on what we would be doing today, which none could of imagined. We try to explain the unexplainable with theories and facts that are far greater than our knowledge of life and our experience in life, the only explination comes from your heart and your spiritual mind.

The possibility of a thought must not be explained for it is the very thing that makes us human. Theories about god, matter and intelligence are all things we will not know therefore they must not be explained only thought. A few decades ago we had a very different impression on what we would be doing today, which none could of imagined. We try to explain the unexplainable with theories and facts that are far greater than our knowledge of life and our experience in life, the only explination comes from your heart and your spiritual mind.

So then... there is a God?

So then... there is a God?

Well what do you think...

Poor example. If you fashioned them from dust and breathed life into them then forgive me for saying a poor example, otherwise I'm pretty sure that you did it the same way all of fathers did. The only part you played is fertilizing the egg so that means you only had 1/2 a part in causing a life to be formed.
No it's a perfect example of natural love, not enforced by fear and threats, anyway I thought childbirth was God's doing

I'll tell you what also gets on my nerves about so called religious people. Its the "greater than thou" attitude of them, as if they are in some way superior.

And also, the way they always cop out of a decision by saying "I prayed about it and it is gods will I did . . . . . xyz"

Normal people make a decision and stand by that decision and take the rap if it goes tits-up - religious people always have a smarmy cop-out answer and never take any responsibility for their actions.

Like that lunatic dictator Bush - ""God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East."ref (http://www.bushwatch.com/evangelist.htm)

What total crap! things like this do nothing to enhance christianity, other than to confirm it as being a total joke

Col

But atheists seem to be among the most devout in their proclamation of their faith.

Even to the point of being disciples for the spread of non-belief;

Thats total rubbish Jenny.:rolleyes: Athiests get on with the reality of life and don't fart about getting "guidance" and spending ages trying to find a verse in some old manual that can then be misinterpreted to suit their needs.

Also athiests don't go round annoying people at tea time knocking on doors trying to get people to come round to their way of thinking.

Athiests will discuss their stance, but its usually a religious crank that starts the conversation - other than that, athiests shut up about it because its insignificant and meaningless - as all religions are.

Col

And what are the first two?

Mice, Then Dolphins ...

Like that lunatic dictator Bush - ""God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East."ref (http://www.bushwatch.com/evangelist.htm)

Col

Yeah "blessed are the bombed children":rolleyes:
didn't Manson claim to be the "son of god" too?

Yeah "blessed are the bombed children":rolleyes:
didn't Manson claim to be the "son of god" too?
That religious freak in Waco a few years back was also the son of god wasn't he?

How many sons did god father for christs sake?:D and did he have any daughters? all seems a bit spooky to me this getting people pregnant by remote control business.
Poor old Mary eh? bet her and Joe didn't want kids just yet, so they take precautions, then she gets put up the spout by some extra terestrial being - sod 'innit? I'd have been well upset if I was Joe

Just imagine if it was today, some young girl gets pregnant without doing anything - then tells her Mum it was god that did it. . . . . . . she'd be locked up, or at least whisked off to the clinic for a termination.

How come this Jesus person is so say born in the middle east, yet is always portrayed by Americans as a white caucasion with blue eyes and browny / blond hair?

Col

Well what do you think...

I think that should be evendent from at least one of my 1400 odd post.

Only 1400 of your posts odd, now don't be modest.:rolleyes:

Brian

That religious freak in Waco a few years back was also the son of god wasn't he?

How many sons did god father for christs sake?:D and did he have any daughters? all seems a bit spooky to me this getting people pregnant by remote control business.
Poor old Mary eh? bet her and Joe didn't want kids just yet, so they take precautions, then she gets put up the spout by some extra terestrial being - sod 'innit? I'd have been well upset if I was Joe

Just imagine if it was today, some young girl gets pregnant without doing anything - then tells her Mum it was god that did it. . . . . . . she'd be locked up, or at least whisked off to the clinic for a termination.

How come this Jesus person is so say born in the middle east, yet is always portrayed by Americans as a white caucasion with blue eyes and browny / blond hair?

Col


Col your last three posts are over the edge religious raving. "Normal people" compared to "religious" ones. Wake up Col you are one of the raving atheist I'm referring too.

If you read my post on religion and yours, side by side, you will have to concede that YOU are the raving fanatic.

I and most Christians I know do not look down on atheist any where near the way you look down on Christians, we just feel sorry for you.


Can you say the same?

Only 1400 of your posts odd, now don't be modest.:rolleyes:

Brian

And a good morning to you too sir.

As is usual with this debate people start to shoot the messengers rather than take note of the message, and the messengers they shoot are the wacky ones, but then nobody hears about the religious people who quietly go about their business, perhaps doing good, perhaps just getting on with their lives and hurting nobody.

I am not active in any religion but that is not because of the actions of any particular person, it is because I cannot accept the message in those I know a little about.

Brian

Rich
If you are going to complain about God not intervening in events don't choose man made examples like WW2 , but Tsunamis and droughts that man can do nothing about.

Brian

Col your last three posts are over the edge religious raving. "Normal people" compared to "religious" ones. Wake up Col you are one of the raving atheist I'm referring too.
I see, so just because I dare to stray from your extremely narrow religious corridor and ask a few questions. . . . that brands me a "raving atheist"? if you say so Jen - that demonstrates the famous religious understanding that is a key factor in religious belief.

If you read my post on religion and your side by side you will have to concede that YOU are the raving fanatic. so the Waco guy wasn't a fanatic? my ref to GWB shows he is not a fanatic? people that dare to intrude on anothers privacy, start bleating on about religion with no invitation are not fanatics? Billy Graham and his multi-millionaire cronies are not fanatics?

I and most Christians I know do not look down on atheist any where near how you look down on Christians, we just feel sorry for you no you don't - you hate me because I don't fit into your snug antiseptic little world

Can you say the same?
If so called christians kept their beliefs to themselves and didn't rabbit on about it - things would be a whole lot better. Why should I feel sorry for you? I don't even know you (well, you are American, but thats the way the cookie crumbles;) )


Col

I see, so just because I dare to stray from your extremely narrow religious corridor and ask a few questions. . . . that brands me a "raving atheist"? if you say so Jen - that demonstrates the famous religious understanding that is a key factor in religious belief.

so the Waco guy wasn't a fanatic? my ref to GWB shows he is not a fanatic? people that dare to intrude on anothers privacy, start bleating on about religion with no invitation are not fanatics? Billy Graham and his multi-millionaire cronies are not fanatics?

no you don't - you hate me because I don't fit into your snug antiseptic little world


If so called christians kept their beliefs to themselves and didn't rabbit on about it - things would be a whole lot better. Why should I feel sorry for you? I don't even know you (well, you are American, but thats the way the cookie crumbles;) )


Col

Col you are making my point for me with every post.
You use words like hate, and the very nature of your wording says that you feel more strongly about this than, if not almost every Christian I have ever met, than certainly me.

By the way feeling sorry for me because I’m American is radically misplaced; we have advantages that you cannot possibly fathom.

Col you are making my point for me with every post.
You use words like hate, and the very nature of your wording says that you feel more strongly about this than, if not almost every Christian I have ever met, than certainly me.
Nice get-out Jen, I'm not going to persue this as you're not willing to discuss any issues I've raised.

By the way feeling sorry for me because I’m American is radically misplaced; we have advantages that you cannot possibly fathom.
Good for you - us poor Brits can only dream of what it must be like. :rolleyes:

I don't suppose you'd like to expand on the "advantages I cannot possibly fathom"?

Col

Nice get-out Jen, I'm not going to persue this as you're not willing to discuss any issues I've raised.


Good for you - us poor Brits can only dream of what it must be like. :rolleyes:

I don't suppose you'd like to expand on the "advantages I cannot possibly fathom"?

Col

Well for starters, room, National Forest, big roads, hunting, chile, cheap housing (in some parts), the list goes on.

so the Waco guy wasn't a fanatic?

Col

Of course he was.

But why do you insist on labeling all Americans and Christians by the few news seekers?

I'll tell you what also gets on my nerves about so called religious people. Its the "greater than thou" attitude of them, as if they are in some way superior.

I'll tell you what also gets on my nerves about Colin. Its the "greater than thou" attitude of him, as if he's in some way superior. :rolleyes:

Well for starters, room, National Forest, big roads, hunting, chile, cheap housing (in some parts), the list goes on.

National Health Service :eek: :p

I'll tell you what also gets on my nerves about Colin. Its the "greater than thou" attitude of him, as if he's in some way superior. :rolleyes:
Nice one Matt - I like it;) :D Thats the first smile I've had in an extremely bad day:D

Col

Well for starters, room, National Forest, big roads, hunting, chile, cheap housing (in some parts), the list goes on.
whats "chile"?:confused:

do you mean "chilli"? the imported South American hot meat dish you all eat.

Hunting? - keep it thanks, killing innocent things is not my scene, nor very christian I would think.

cheap housing (in some parts) is not exclusive to the USA

Forests - we have those in the UK (but on a pro-rata size)

big roads - we have those but they are all full with traffic:D

room - we have those in houses - living room, bedroom, bathroom etc:rolleyes:

Col

I and most Christians I know do not look down on atheist any where near the way you look down on Christians, we just feel sorry for you.


How many Christians believe the man who said these words to be genuine?

"I place a curse on every man and every woman that would stretch his hand against this anointing; I curse that man who dares to speak a word against this ministry..."

National Health Service :eek: :p

That's something very dear to me, but for a different topic. We are discussing athiest fanatics.

How many Christians believe the man who said these words to be genuine?

"I place a curse on every man and every woman that would stretch his hand against this anointing; I curse that man who dares to speak a word against this ministry..."

Christ said you can say things against me, but keep the Holy Spirit. The reason for that is the Holy Spirit is the healing word of God, and to do so would deny you that joy.

After all the definition of hell; is the absence of God.

do you mean "chilli"? the imported South American hot meat dish you all eat.


Col


Actually its origins are Mexican, which the last time I looked, is North American.

Plus it may have originated in Mexico, but like English culture and law, we adapted them and made them better.

[QUOTE=jsanders]Actually its origins are Mexican, which the last time I looked, is North American.
[QUOTE]

Mexico is North American, but Chili didn't come from there

http://whatscookingamerica.net/History/Chili/ChiliHistory.htm

(trying desperately to stay out of the original religious debate ;) )

National Health Service :eek: :p
Does America have an NHS? I thought you had to bleed money to get treatment or you get thrown out - treatment refused

Col

Christ said you can say things against me, but keep the Holy Spirit. The reason for that is the Holy Spirit is the healing word of God, and to do so would deny you that joy.


How does that give licence to "preachers" to curse people directly :confused:

[QUOTE=jsanders]Actually its origins are Mexican, which the last time I looked, is North American.
[QUOTE]

Mexico is North American, but Chili didn't come from there

http://whatscookingamerica.net/History/Chili/ChiliHistory.htm

(trying desperately to stay out of the original religious debate ;) )

I knew we had long tradition of Chili in Texas; well there you are; the Mexicans couldn't even invent that.

How does that give licence to "preachers" to curse people directly :confused:

Are you asking me to answer for other people?

How the hell should I know what possesses people to do anything.

I live in Northern Virginia, home of some of the worst drivers in the US. I have enough to worry about with trying to figure that one out.

[QUOTE=jsanders]Actually its origins are Mexican, which the last time I looked, is North American.
[QUOTE]

Mexico is North American, but Chili didn't come from there

http://whatscookingamerica.net/History/Chili/ChiliHistory.htm

(trying desperately to stay out of the original religious debate ;) )

At the time Texas was Mexico, or part anyway.

Well it's lunch time, and I'm off to get a big old steaming bowl of chili.

Edit...Oops it's only 10:45 I have to wait, darn.

Well it's lunch time, and I'm off to get a big old steaming bowl of chili.

If anyone from South of the border tries to take credit for it, make sure you correct them.

If anyone from South of the border tries to take credit for it, make sure you correct them.


Aren't we south of the border?

How the hell should I know what possesses people to do anything.


Sorry I thought your response was some kind of answer to my original question. I guess it wasn't :confused:

Aren't we south of the border?

We're all South of somebody's border, my child.

And there endeth the lesson.:D

How the hell should I know what possesses people to do anything.


I thought it was god that posesses and guided people. Thats what your revered leader says.

Are you now saying its nothing to do with religion?

Col

Sorry I thought your response was some kind of answer to my original question. I guess it wasn't :confused:

The point is people can find any a reason they want to condemn.

Who knows? He also said many are called few are chosen. We have to pity the many.

But I think before we were born we knew what we were getting into, and the distinct possibility to fail.

We're all South of somebody's border, my child.

And there endeth the lesson.:D


You guys aren't.

[QUOTE=Matt Greatorex][QUOTE=jsanders]Actually its origins are Mexican, which the last time I looked, is North American.

I knew we had long tradition of Chili in Texas; well there you are; the Mexicans couldn't even invent that.

I do not think that the Mexicans even try and claim it..
At least when I was in Mexico we never found a place that sold it. It was easier to get a pizza... Honestly !!!

You guys aren't.

We're South of Alaska.
Alaska is part of the US.
Therefore, we're South of the Northern US/Canada border.

And I can't believe I just used 'we' in a statement about Canada.
Guess I must be 'going native'. ;)

We're South of Alaska.
Alaska is part of the US.
Therefore, we're South of the Northern US/Canada border.

And I can't believe I just used 'we' in a statement about Canada.
Guess I must be 'going native'. ;)

There I go again, and all this time I thought you guys shared and east/west relationship with them.

I think you will find parts of Canada far north of Alaska as it extends into the Arctic circle.

Brian

I think you will find parts of Canada far north of Alaska as it extends into the Arctic circle.

Brian

Then we're both South and North of each other, depending on where you are along the border.

Job done. Any more international crises that need resolving?

Then we're both South and North of each other, depending on where you are along the border.

Job done. Any more international crises that need resolving?

So, I can read a map after all. Cool.

Not really, Canada is more East of Alaska, to say it is south of Alaska is like saying it is south of Scandinavia.

Might as well talk geography since the thread lost its way a while ago.:D

Brian

Not really, Canada is more East of Alaska, to say it is south of Alaska is like saying it is south of Scandinavia.

Might as well talk geography since the thread lost its way a while ago.:D

Brian

This is a heck of a lot more pleasant, that's for sure.

I can stop using spell check if you guys need something to talk about.

No it's a perfect example of natural love, not enforced by fear and threats, anyway I thought childbirth was God's doing

It may be a perfect example of natural love but the topic was whether you can compare your part in causing a child to be born compared to you creating your children. You did not create your children. You followed the natural created way of causing the fertilization of an egg which leads to a human being born. There is quite a difference.

What point is being made when you say it is "God's doing" when it comes to child birth?

Not really, Canada is more EAST of Alaska, to say it is south of Alaska is like saying it is south of Scandinavia.


Brian

Didn't I say that earlier?

How do you get to use spellcheck on the forum?? Surely you don't write in say Word first? I bet I've just had my leg pulled and fell for it.:o

Brian

Didn't I say that earlier?

Sorry if you did I missed it , which post number?

Brian

How do you get to use spellcheck on the forum?? Surely you don't write in say Word first? I bet I've just had my leg pulled and fell for it.:o

Brianthere's actually an add on for Explorer...if you have sufficient rights to install it

there's actually an add on for Explorer...if you have sufficient rights to install it

Thanks , I'll look into it.

Brian

How do you get to use spellcheck on the forum?? Surely you don't write in say Word first? I bet I've just had my leg pulled and fell for it.:o

Brian

Nearly every "word" I write is pasted from Word.

Sorry if you did I missed it , which post number?

Brian

...........120

It may be a perfect example of natural love but the topic was whether you can compare your part in causing a child to be born compared to you creating your children. You did not create your children. You followed the natural created way of causing the fertilization of an egg which leads to a human being born. There is quite a difference.

What point is being made when you say it is "God's doing" when it comes to child birth?

You'll be blue in the face before long.

...........120

It was just muggins here who got on the wrong track. :o

Well first off, I wasn't wanting to suggest that Christians are dumb. If I came across that way, then I apologise. Anyway, the roman empire lasted for several hundred years. Conclusion: They knew how to suppress their opponents. I'm just saying that this kind of rhetoric would not have been beyond them.

No need to apologize. It did have a sound to it that if I was more intelligent then I wouldn't be buying it to all of this stuff, but I was not offended by that.



The new testament was the new covenant. The replacement of Moses's law with the preachings of Jesus. The old covenant described rebellion. The release of the tribes of Israel from Egypt and Moses's defiance of authority. All this has been replaced with submission and acceptance of poverty.

I'm playing devil's advocate here. Just toying with the idea that the turn the other cheek instead of the eye for the eye could have been designed by an authority wanting a submissive populace.

"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth'. But I say to you, do not resist an evildoer. If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:38-39)

Do not resist an evil-doer could actually mean let the romans have their fun, perhaps?

Perhaps! Then again maybe a teaching of grace (meaning unmerited favor) was introduced as a new covenant and just like the Old Covenant had an ending so the New Covenant may have one too. If you read the end of the story, and read the prophecies, which include the details of Jesus return, it is very obvious that grace has come to an end and a time for judgement has begun. A submissive populace is not prophecied about.

It was just muggins here who got on the wrong track. :o

I don't get that. You have to speak real slow when you try to insult me.

Perhaps! If you read the end of the story, and read the prophecies, which include the details of Jesus return, it is very obvious that grace has come to an end and a time for judgement has begun. A submissive populace is not prophecied about.


It sure is looking that way.

Thanks , I'll look into it.

Brian
upper right-hand corner of the utilities box when posting a reply


Does anyone actually use this?

I don't get that. You have to speak real slow when you try to insult me.

Sorry, it was aimed at me, not you.
'Muggins here' is a British term one uses to used to describe oneself, often after saying or doing something stupid.

(I still think of myself as being South of Alaska, though :p )

upper right-hand corner of the utilities box when posting a reply


Does anyone actually use this?

Never even noticed it:o

Brian

...........120


east/west ... damn no wonder a search for east didn't find it:(

Brian

If you read the end of the story, and read the prophecies, which include the details of Jesus return, it is very obvious that grace has come to an end and a time for judgement has begun.

How is it obvious?


A submissive populace is not prophecied about.

Well broadcasting the desired effects of the rhetoric defeats the point a little don't you think?

How is it obvious?

Hey Dan, I think I worded this wrong. What I meant to say is that there are prophecies in the Bible that foretell a coming day of the day of grace ending and the time of judgement will begin, so I was saying these prophecies obvious indicate a time of grace coming to an end. Hope I explained it better this time.


Well broadcasting the desired effects of the rhetoric defeats the point a little don't you think?

Perhaps it does, but if Biblical prophecy comes true then the rhetoric really won't matter much at that point.

Hey Dan, I think I worded this wrong. What I meant to say is that there are prophecies in the Bible that foretell a coming day of the day of grace ending and the time of judgement will begin, so I was saying these prophecies obvious indicate a time of grace coming to an end. Hope I explained it better this time.


You mean like during WW1, WW11, etc., etc how did God decide who should live or die during any one of those prophecies?

Hey Dan, I think I worded this wrong. What I meant to say is that there are prophecies in the Bible that foretell a coming day of the day of grace ending and the time of judgement will begin, so I was saying these prophecies obvious indicate a time of grace coming to an end. Hope I explained it better this time.

Ah, yes I know how obvious the bible makes the times of judgment.

Do you have any idea how many occasions in history these times have been wrongly predicted? I would say countless.



Perhaps it does, but if Biblical prophecy comes true then the rhetoric really won't matter much at that point.

Ah yes the if factor. The factor that has defeated many predictors of the future.

You mean like during WW1, WW11, etc., etc how did God decide who should live or die during any one of those prophecies?

WW1 and WWII were not prophecied. The prophecies that I'm referring to, have not happened yet, but if these prophecies do come true then you will know the war it refers to when it shows up.

Once again, God does not look down the sights of a gun and pull the trigger. Man does that. What kind of a God would you want (if you were to want one?) One that steps in and does not allow man to make choices?

You mean like during WW1, WW11, etc., etc how did God decide who should live or die during any one of those prophecies?

If God is omniscient then how can He make a decision?

If He knows that Rich will have a cup of tea at 19:30 how can He decide that there will be a power-cut at 19:25? :confused: :p

WW1 and WWII were not prophecied. The prophecies that I'm referring to, have not happened yet, but if these prophecies do come true then you will know the war it refers to when it shows up.

You haven't referred to any of them yet :p

Well for starters, room, National Forest, big roads, hunting, chile, cheap housing (in some parts), the list goes on.
Most of you live in caravans on trailer parks surely:rolleyes:
We've got national parks here too, the difference is of course that ours aren't polluted or exploited anymore

Ah, yes I know how obvious the bible makes the times of judgment.

Do you have any idea how many occasions in history these times have been wrongly predicted? I would say countless.

and I would agree. Countless. However, the problem is with those that predict. You only have to look at one verse that says, "no one knows the day or the hour" to know that if someone is foolish enough to predict when then they have already went against what the Bible itself says. The closest the Bible comes to letting you know anything is to say, "just as when the fig tree begins to bud you know spring is on the way so will it be when the Son of Man returns." I believe what is being said there is we will be able to tell by whats going on around us and that looks to know time has to be getting close but to know the exact time is foolish to even say.




Ah yes the if factor. The factor that has defeated many predictors of the future.

Just being respectful to how someone chooses to believe. There are several here who have made it clear they don't believe any of this, so I felt the respectful thing to do is say "if." I can not mandate my beliefs on anyone else nor do I want to. I have an experience that has caused me to believe. Those are my beliefs. It is not up to me to cause anyone else to get on board with me in those beliefs. As far as the "factor that has been defeated" see above answer think I covered it there.

You haven't referred to any of them yet :p

Good catch. I mean the war(s) prophecied about that have not happened yet. Thanks Dan.

If God is omniscient then how can He make a decision?

If He knows that Rich will have a cup of tea at 19:30 how can He decide that there will be a power-cut at 19:25? :confused: :p

He or SHE would be wrong on several accounts
A/ Rich doesn't drink tea
B/ Rich doesn't use a electric kettle so a power cut would have no effect
C/Rich would probably be in somebody elses house drinking a free cup of coffee at that time of day:cool: :p

If God is omniscient then how can He make a decision?

If He knows that Rich will have a cup of tea at 19:30 how can He decide that there will be a power-cut at 19:25? :confused: :p

Or can He make a rock so big He can't pick it up.

He or SHE would be wrong on several accounts
A/ Rich doesn't drink tea
B/ Rich doesn't use a electric kettle so a power cut would have no effect
C/Rich would probably be in somebody elses house drinking a free cup of coffee at that time of day:cool: :p

Ah yes, but can't certain passages be interpreted in such a way as to imply - in ever so slightly an obscure way - that, come the day of judgement, the lion shall lay down with the lamb and Rich shall start the use of electrical tea preparation, for his own consumption, within his own domicile?

I admit to being no scholar, but I'm sure that's in there somewhere. ;)

A/ Rich doesn't drink tea

now we have proof that your view is not representative of the British public :D


B/ Rich doesn't use a electric kettle so a power cut would have no effect

Local power company won't service your trailer then :eek:


C/Rich would probably be in somebody elses house drinking a free cup of coffee at that time of day:cool: :p

Well without any power I'm not surprised you frequent the local shelter during the colder months :p

WW1 and WWII were not prophecied. The prophecies that I'm referring to, have not happened yet, but if these prophecies do come true then you will know the war it refers to when it shows up.

You mean the prophecies that foretell the end of life on earth for man, well for 20,000,000 or so that was true during one war, just how much evidence do you need?

now we have proof that your view is not representative of the British public :D


Actually I've already posted the statistics to prove that I am:p


Well without any power I'm not surprised you frequent the local shelter during the colder months :p

Where did I say I didn't have any power?:confused:

You mean the prophecies that foretell the end of life on earth for man, well for 20,000,000 or so that was true during one war, just how much evidence do you need?

No. I'm referring the prophecies of the wars(s) that we occur that begin a different era of life for man on earth. The end doesn't happen for 1000 years after that.:D How much more evidence do I need? 2/3 of the earths population wiped out.

Ah yes, but can't certain passages be interpreted in such a way as to imply - in ever so slightly an obscure way - that, come the day of judgement, the lion shall lay down with the lamb and Rich shall start the use of electrical tea preparation, for his own consumption, within his own domicile?

I admit to being no scholar, but I'm sure that's in there somewhere. ;)

It is in there! I just read it last night.:D

No. I'm referring the prophecies of the wars(s) that we occur that begin a different era of life for man on earth. The end doesn't happen for 1000 years after that.:D How much more evidence do I need? 2/3 of the earths population wiped out.

You mean like during the black death?:confused:

You mean like during the black death?:confused:

No. The end times prophecies tell of an all out war on earth and at one point what is said that "if God does not put a stop to it then man would wipe himself out." When He does stop it, 2/3's of mankind is dead.

No. The end times prophecies tell of an all out war on earth and at one point what is said that "if God does not put a stop to it then man would wipe himself out." When He does stop it, 2/3's of mankind is dead.
So if man puts a stop to it, then it must be God's will. Therefore my previous question regarding WW11 still holds. Why did God not put a stop to it ?

I believe what is being said there is we will be able to tell by whats going on around us and that looks to know time has to be getting close but to know the exact time is foolish to even say.

I believe that the imagery used in the bible is suitably enigmatic so one can apply any interpretation. That being the hook. Some examples:

1) The Black Death
2) The 6 day war in Israel
3) Nazi holocaust

In fact the most peaceful times of human history occured during the roman empire :eek:

Where did I say I didn't have any power?:confused:

You didn't, I was being prophetic :eek:

I believe that the imagery used in the bible is suitably enigmatic so one can apply any interpretation. That being the hook. Some examples:

1) The Black Death
2) The 6 day war in Israel
3) Nazi holocaust

In fact the most peaceful times of human history occured during the roman empire :eek:
I think you'll find that should be during the British Empire, that's probably why Americans are so envious of it:cool:

You didn't, I was being prophetic :eek:
You've misspelt pathetic:p :cool:

I think you'll find that should be during the British Empire, that's probably why Americans are so envious of it:cool:

Indeed I knew we must have got the idea from somewhere .

Anglo-Afghan war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Anglo-Afghan_War)

Indeed I knew we must have got the idea from somewhere .

Anglo-Afghan war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Anglo-Afghan_War)
Must have been the same place that told you the Roman Empire was peaceful
http://www.aboutscotland.com/hadrian/:rolleyes:

Must have been the same place that told you the Roman Empire was peaceful
http://www.aboutscotland.com/hadrian/:rolleyes:

Well the site keeps giving different versions... now hold on a minute, these are all seperate wars :eek:

Second Anglo war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Anglo-Afghan_War#Return_of_Dost_Mohammad_and_The_Second_ Anglo-Afghan_War.2C_1843.E2.80.931880)

Third Anglo War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Anglo-Afghan_War#Third_Anglo-Afghan_War_and_Independence)

So if man puts a stop to it, then it must be God's will. Therefore my previous question regarding WW11 still holds. Why did God not put a stop to it ?

I didn't say "man" puts a stop to it. God does. Don't know that I can answer the question of why God did not stop WWII. Anything I would say would be a guess.

I believe that the imagery used in the bible is suitably enigmatic so one can apply any interpretation. That being the hook. Some examples:

1) The Black Death
2) The 6 day war in Israel
3) Nazi holocaust

In fact the most peaceful times of human history occured during the roman empire :eek:

I guess your example would have the possiblities of working except for one big problem. None of the 3 things you listed had any of the signs given of the coming end times. For instances, one of the signs is that the Jews will gather back in Isreal and Isreal will become a nation again. This did not happen until 1948 so the things listed above would have been prior to that. There are others but my point being is if someone is going to go along with the prophecies or against the prophecies then it would seem logical to me that their agrument would at least have to fit into what those prophecies are actually saying.

Most of you live in caravans on trailer parks surely:rolleyes:
We've got national parks here too, the difference is of course that ours aren't polluted or exploited anymore


Ignorant to the last drop.

I and most Christians I know do not look down on atheist.

You are right, mainly because you are apart of a dying breed and you cant execute and banish people for not believeing or being a heretic like you used to do in the medieval times. Today christians keep a little more to themselfs because they a not as accepted in society as they once were.

I didn't say "man" puts a stop to it. God does.
How will we know that it'll be god's will and not man's?:confused:

Ignorant to the last drop.
Do I need to post the references to correct your ignorance of your own country yet again?:rolleyes:

So if man puts a stop to it, then it must be God's will. Therefore my previous question regarding WW11 still holds. Why did God not put a stop to it ?

How do YOU know he didn't?

How do YOU know he didn't?

Do you think he did?

How do YOU know he didn't?

Man put a stop to it, not your god

Do I need to post the references to correct your ignorance of your own country yet again?:rolleyes:


Whatever erroneous info you have will be taken out of context, from one of those hate America news letters that you subscribe.

You are right, mainly because you are apart of a dying breed and you cant execute and banish people for not believeing or being a heretic like you used to do in the medieval times. Today christians keep a little more to themselfs because they a not as accepted in society as they once were.


Greyowls,

You are an offensive oaf. And this time your offensiveness has gone over the tolerable limit.

How can you possibly maintain to have any idea how I feel about non believers. Other than what I state freely on site.

First off the banishing and executing was a political plow by Europeans. America didn’t exist in the middle ages.

And before any of you start in about some of my ancestors living here during that time; you might first consider that it wasn’t America then.

Whatever erroneous info you have will be taken out of context, from one of those hate America new letters that you subscribe.
Tut tut, blinded by patriotism yet again:rolleyes:
here's the first from an anti American, American site, perhaps you should actually read for yourself instead of swallowing the "greatness" of your mainstream news channels
http://www.npca.org/across_the_nation/visitor_experience/code_red/

Man put a stop to it, not your god



You mean Americans.

Americans put a stop to it. And since we are mostly Christians I guess that pretty much sums it up.

First off the banishing and executing was a political plow by Europeans. America didn’t exist in the middle ages.

And before any of you start in about some of my ancestors living here during that time; you might first consider that it wasn’t America then.
No but America continued the practice against the negro etc., long after Europe had bannished it for good:rolleyes:

You mean Americans.

Americans put a stop to it. And since we are mostly Christians I guess that pretty much sums it up.
Here we go, America's version of history:rolleyes:

Tut tut, blinded by patriotism yet again:rolleyes:
here's the first from an anti American, American site, perhaps you should actually read for yourself instead of swallowing the "greatness" of your mainstream news channels
http://www.npca.org/across_the_nation/visitor_experience/code_red/

Oh is that all?

We don't have to go to parks to breath polluted air.

Here we go, America's version of history:rolleyes:

No sir on so many levels; it was the Americans

American Oil
American Ships
American Planes
American Ammo
American Ingenuity
American Food
American Trucks
American Dishwashers
American Generals
American Troops

Yes Rich America, I know that brings out your most jealous streak, but there it is.

No but America continued the practice against the negro etc., long after Europe had bannished it for good:rolleyes:

Yes indeed. And we are still far from perfect. But at least we're not you, you and your kind were promptly shown the door.

Still we Americans have always had a kind heart for our British cousins. You guys alway do love a pat on the shoulder.

No sir on so many levels; it was the Americans

American Oil
American Ships
American Planes
American Ammo
American Ingenuity
American Food
American Trucks
American Dishwashers
American Generals
American Troops

Yes Rich America, I know that brings out your most jealous streak, but there it is.

You've forgotten The British Army, the RAF, The Commonwealth, The Russian army, the Russian tanks and the list goes on, oh and let's look at some American generals shall we, ever heard of Mark Clark, you remember he's the guy who prolonged the war by going for personal glory instead of the enemy:rolleyes:

Oh is that all?


No Jen, that's not all, perhaps you could try some research for yourself

since we are mostly Christians I guess that pretty much sums it up.
Yes let's have a look at your good christian ethos shall we, after you finished butchering each other you then fought the Spanish, the Mexicans, The Krauts, the Japs, the Vietnamese, the Panamanians, the Koreans, the Chinese, the Iraqis, anybody left that you haven't spread the good christian word to?:rolleyes:

Still we Americans have always had a kind heart for our British cousins. You guys alway do love a pat on the shoulder.

It's called envy on your part Jen

Yes let's have a look at your good christian ethos shall we, after you finished butchering each other you then fought the Spanish, the Mexicans, The Krauts, the Japs, the Vietnamese, the Panamanians, the Koreans, the Chinese, the Iraqis, anybody left that you haven't spread the good christian word to?:rolleyes:


This from a country that maintained it's 500 year empire by warring with its neighbors over concerns of the royal families.

This from a country that maintained it's 500 year empire by warring with its neighbors over concerns of the royal families.
Nothing to do with royal families Jen, it was religion that caused most of the strife, still nothing's changed today under Bush and Bliar:rolleyes:

How will we know that it'll be god's will and not man's?:confused:

Being we are talking about the last war prophecied and being it says that if God did not stop it, then man would wipe himself out and being 2/3 of mankind is not alive anymore and being that it finally comes to a end, then you will know it was God who stopped it (as prophecied), then at that point you should know "if was God's will." Leave anything out?

Greyowls,

You are an offensive oaf. And this time your offensiveness has gone over the tolerable limit.

How can you possibly maintain to have any idea how I feel about non believers. Other than what I state freely o