Guys,

What are your thoughts on the prospects of Global Warming?

I have a size 11 carbon footprint :p

I don't subscribe to the Global Warming issue, as I believe that the Earth is just going through a cycle that it has gone through hundreds of times before, only humans were not around or not intelligent enough to realise it.

Think about the great ice ages that the Earth has indured thousands of years in the past, followed by the subsequent heating of the planet which dispersed the ice, there was no such think as man made pollution then, no chimneys pumping out CO2, no carbon footprints, yet still the Earth went through the global warming cycle.

I just think that 99% of this is a ply especially by the British government to Tax it's citizens even more under the name of this banner :mad:

What do you think?

I'll agree that the warming trend is cyclic, has happened before, will happen again, and there's nothing we can do to stop it... but I also think that the depth and severity of the cycle is being increased by our CO2 emissions.

err not quite ,

yes the earth runs in cycles and every x years their is an adjustment- but the speed of this change was relatively slow- the speed at what we are going at now is faster....

even if you view is right (and it may well be) - it makes sense to try and run cleaner smarter etc... Rubbish in landfills does not make much sense - and I don't want to be held over the oil barrel to the arabs ( or the US) when the oil runs out

lets utilise the alterntives but in a logical manner

we could start with the simple things - recycle paper ( most of us do in the UK already) , glass , cans this does reduce (the carbon foot print ) moveing minerals for the earth to smelting centre, to factory to depot etc ... the energy in recyceling is 5% of the original production of most items again not all).

the Eu rules on computers makes sense - you buy a new one - what happens tot he old one- now its to be recycles- ( monitors where the real problem here)

I ramble

I'll agree that the warming trend is cyclic, has happened before, will happen again, and there's nothing we can do to stop it... but I also think that the depth and severity of the cycle is being increased by our CO2 emissions.

If this is so then why does America not sign up to reduce it's emissions :confused:

What can be done to reduce China's emissions?

And if we don't what is the worst that can happen?

err not quite ,

yes the earth runs in cycles and every x years their is an adjustment- but the speed of this change was relatively slow- the speed at what we are going at now is faster....




Are you predicting that we do nothing we could be faced by another ice age?

Global warming is a scare story to to protect the tangible agriculture and industry producers of the west against emerging economies.

"Buy local - its 10 times the price - but your saving the planet!"

Bollocks!

The intangible has been sown up thru globalisation already.

[Quote]What can be done to reduce China's emissions?[Quote] - Well they need to stop the industrialisation process don't they!

Protectionist propaganda the lot of it.

If this is so then why does America not sign up to reduce it's emissions :confused: The Governator is in the process of trying to get that to happen, but unfortunately the current administration isn't interested.What can be done to reduce China's emissions?Let them find out for themselves. Telling someone is not nearly as convincing as having them suddenly deal with acid rain and a dying ecosystem. Unfortunate, but I don't see them listening to anyone any time soonAnd if we don't what is the worst that can happen?http://www.amcostarica.com/coldnewyork052504.jpg

the Eu rules on computers makes sense - you buy a new one - what happens tot he old one- now its to be recycles- ( monitors where the real problem here)

I ramble

What's the point of re-cycling worn out, clapped out junk?:confused:

do you want to go for a walk and have nothing but rubbish tips everywhere - no they recycle the monitors - the plastic goes one way then the glass another - .

as to whether I am predicting another ice age... I think that there is one coming - but its the speed of it that mankind can have an impact on

it could be 1000 years away or if we don't get our act together it could start in 50 - 100 years

Do you know how much of the crap we're not allowed to bury here under EU rules gets shipped off to China? So much for the policy on protecting the planet:rolleyes:

Yeah, it may be 'just a cycle', and the earth will go on existing afterward, but if WE don't figure out something to do about it WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE! You me, our kids, their kids. No more people. We have to figure it out quick, too - whether the earth becomes uninhabitable for humans in the next 50 years or 500 doesn't matter: that's a drop in the bucket (Gaia is one old b*tch ;) ) It's gonna take a while to fix our problem - it doesn't matter if we caused it or if its natural.


I do the right things, I drive a moped for transportation, recycle, have a wind genny, use solar assisted heaters, consume less, compost, plant at least 150 trees a year on my property, manage my land and animals properly. I try to do my part for the future 7 generations. Maybe it is just the cycle of the planet, but I am not willing to gamble that on the health and welfare of the future generations who have to deal with our errors.


Fifty2One - you're the shizzle. If everyone acted as responsibly as you, we would be able to maintain a good environment. However, we also have to figure out a more radical plan to CORRECT the problem, or EVADE it.

:rolleyes: I love this song:

Title: Beds Are Burning
Artist: Oil Midnight

Out where the river broke
The bloodwood and the desert oak
Holden wrecks and boiling diesels
Steam in forty five degrees

The time has come
To say fair's fair
To pay the rent
To pay our share
The time has come
A fact's a fact
It belongs to them
Let's give it back

How can we dance when our earth is turning
How do we sleep while our beds are burning
How can we dance when our earth is turning
How do we sleep while our beds are burning

The time has come to say fairs fair
to pay the rent, now to pay our share

Four wheels scare the cockatoos
From Kintore East to Yuendemu
The western desert lives and breathes
In forty five degrees

The time has come
To say fair's fair
To pay the rent
To pay our share
The time has come
A fact's a fact
It belongs to them
Let's give it back

How can we dance when our earth is turning
How do we sleep while our beds are burning
How can we dance when our earth is turning
How do we sleep while our beds are burning

The time has come to say fair's fair
To pay the rent, now to pay our share
The time has come, a fact's a fact
It belongs to them, let's give it back

How can we dance when our earth is turning
How do we sleep while our beds are burning

http://www.globalwarmingheartland.org/?gclid=CLzX3Kvdto0CFSMKGgod0CIQMg

OK, let's get my position clear here.

1. I am a firm believer that global warming is a side-effect of the overlapping natural heat transfer cycles of the Earth. We have had ice ages and thaws. People forget that we had a mini ice age that led to what is commonly called the "Dark Ages" in Europe. A thousand years ago. We had a bigger ice age that ended only 25K years ago. Precise data on exact temperatures is not available much more than a hundred years ago, give or take.

2. The amount of greenhouse gases emitted by natural forces is far more than Man can create. One rain forest full of termites digesting cellulose causes more methane gas (yes, TERMITE farts...) than all cars in the USA combined. Volcanoes toss out literally billions of tons of oxides of sulfur and nitrogen (due to the heat of the lava breaking down the N2 molecule). It is the ultimate ARROGANCE of some who think Mankind really matters to the environment that much.

3. Global warming research is a GREAT way for a scientist to make a dollar or two by studying something and then reporting some really abstruse findings that are hard to link to anything at all.

4. Having said all of the above, I'm still in favor of cleaning up the air and helping the environment for HEALTH reasons. The mechanism for global warming is a mystery. The mechanisms for emphysema and allergen-induced asthma are well known. Strictly on HEALTH grounds, we should clean up our air and water as much as we can.

So if you are a global warming afficianado, don't chastise me. I still want cleaner air from me and my grandsons. Just not for the same reasons that others might want it.

Doc.

well put, ice ages come and go - so we all agree on that ,and we are due for one (now-ish)

I want a planet that clean - so recycle makes sense just or that in itself, the natural resources are becoming limited - again another reason for recycling

what we should be doing is planting more tree (one of our american college does this on their land - Brilliant) - however my lands not that big -so i have to do things differently -

I compost - my gardens big enough for this -
recycle tins, glass, paper,plastic..
i try to grow some vegies (more to show my daughter - that carrots come from the ground and not from the supermarket)
I have a couple of fruit tree (same as above )
now I know that these samll things don't have a great impact on their own , but if a million people did the same this must have some impact..

This years project was to top up the loft insulation , I am now well above the minimum requirements and we noticed the effects

I have looked into wind generator for my house, and I am not in a good postion for one (I am half way down a hill surrounded by trees) and also the technology on wind generators needs to be better -(It has come on leaps and bounds )- but you need a lot of land , and here in the UK 90% of people don't have much land, a garden the size a stamp compared to stateside

as to solar - this is still a bit pricey , and if its just hotwater you want then do-able but it works best in the summer - when you don't need as much hot water .. if its the other type photvoltic (?) thenI would go for this - but this is pricey to convert a house (If I was doing a self build - yeah I'd do it)

we are pretty good about turning unwanted electrical applicances off at the wall - (no stand by)- but not perfect by any means ..


If the manufactors reduced the packaging on items - this would help - people are lazy, so lets make it easy for them to be greener, a tube of toothpaste has plastic film , then cardboard , before you get to the tube - get rid of the plastic -simple

as an example we have in the uk a couple of towns that have gone plastic bag free and all the shops now use paper or you bring in your bag - so less plastic in land fill - yes this is a tocken jesture - but it could be the start of something - some of the supermarkets now use corn plastic bags that rot down quickley.. these are all small things - but they mount up -

we do need the larger counties (US, India, china ) to join in
i know that individuals are doing there bit as are some states - which is fab.. but we need more -

I ramble


g

At the risk of a terrible pun, Gary, you and I would make a great pair.

I gnash my teeth while you ramble.

Together we would be a Gnash Rambler ?

At the risk of a terrible pun, Gary, you and I would make a great pair.
I gnash my teeth while you ramble.

Together we would be a Gnash Rambler ?
Whats a Gnash Rambler? In the Uk a rambler is someone who walks alot.:confused:

Col

Since we were talking fuel economy and clean-running vehicles at least indirectly....

In the USA in the 1950's and 1960's, a very economical and fuel-efficient vehicle was a Nash Rambler, with Nash being a brand name and Rambler being the model name. Sort of like Pontiac Grand Prix or Ford Anglia.

I believe this next is correct... if you watch the Columbo TV shows with Peter Falk as a perpetually rumpled homicide detective, he drives a Nash Rambler. You cannot mistake the series. He's the detective who asks a few questions and then, just when he's about to leave, turns and says, "There's just one more thing that bothers me. Didn't you tell me that...." - and when he does that near the end of the show, he's telling the perpetrator exactly how said perp has slipped up and incriminated himself cold.

I know many times in other threads we have discussed the American TV shows so I know you folks on the east side of the pond get at least SOME of our re-runs. Maybe you get this one, too.

Actually, I think it was a two door Peugeot 403 convertible and I don’t think clean running came into it at all.:cool: ;)

But a great series nonetheless. :D

Actually, I think it was a two door Peugeot 403 convertible and I don’t think clean running came into it at all.:cool: ;)

But a great series nonetheless. :D

It is a Peugeot he drives.

The series is still run on UK TV (cable)

So is a Nash Rambler the same company who make Rambler cars?

Col

:rolleyes: I love this song:

Title: Beds Are Burning
Artist: Oil Midnight

Out where the river broke
The bloodwood and the desert oak
Holden wrecks and boiling diesels
Steam in forty five degrees

The time has come
To say fair's fair
To pay the rent
To pay our share
The time has come
A fact's a fact
It belongs to them
Let's give it back

How can we dance when our earth is turning
How do we sleep while our beds are burning
How can we dance when our earth is turning
How do we sleep while our beds are burning

The time has come to say fairs fair
to pay the rent, now to pay our share

Four wheels scare the cockatoos
From Kintore East to Yuendemu
The western desert lives and breathes
In forty five degrees

The time has come
To say fair's fair
To pay the rent
To pay our share
The time has come
A fact's a fact
It belongs to them
Let's give it back

How can we dance when our earth is turning
How do we sleep while our beds are burning
How can we dance when our earth is turning
How do we sleep while our beds are burning

The time has come to say fair's fair
To pay the rent, now to pay our share
The time has come, a fact's a fact
It belongs to them, let's give it back

How can we dance when our earth is turning
How do we sleep while our beds are burning

Is this rock and roll with a message? Yeh! Whats the message? Who are Oil Midnight? Sounds kinda backwards to me!

Since we were talking fuel economy and clean-running vehicles at least indirectly....



What about electric cars?

I firmly believe that the technology exists to make good electric cars, or even cars that run on Bio Diesel, but why arer'nt they being manufactured :confused:

I think this is due to power by the big oil producers, if manufactures suddenly flooded the market with alternative fuel cars, imagine what this would do to oil prices!

If good electric cars were made generally available and affordable I would certainly buy one.

But what do you use to charge electric cars?:confused:

But what do you use to charge electric cars?:confused:

I see your point, but electric is man made, we are not consuming the earths natural resources.

Perhaps Bio Diesel is a better alternative then ?

Coal still provides the largest output of electricity here and is the largest cause of the high rate of carbon being pumped into the sky, as for bio fuels, what land do we then use to grow food?

Coal still provides the largest output of electricity here and is the largest cause of the high rate of carbon being pumped into the sky, as for bio fuels, what land do we then use to grow food?

What do you then suggest as an alternative feul for cars?

Here in Kent -t here are afew Bio diesel station and the fuel costs around 59 pence (Compared to around 94 pence)

There was an interview with a bio fuel expert and he said (ish) that only about 5% of cars can be made to run off this without having to grow seperate crops - re-cycling chip fat etc and other by products otherwise you have to start growing crops which effects the food chain - the price of food will go up ..

recently there is a bus in wales that runs of urine (sheeps) which might be the answer

electric cars sound good - but until we get our act together on wind/wave/solar power not really doing it for the enviroment (although removing exhaust imissions for the car, but moving it to a power station -if coal fired , if nuke then diffent.

best small solution , I think the French have - is to have bikes all over the place for short journeys - you hire them as you need them and then drop them off at a point and someone else can hire them ( i think its limited to a short time 1/2 hour or so)

What do you then suggest as an alternative feul for cars?

There isn't a viable one yet, I'm afraid that unless man changes his lifestyle, life for him is doomed in the long term:eek:

at the moment in the uk I would recommed paddle power

best small solution , I think the French have - is to have bikes all over the place for short journeys - you hire them as you need them and then drop them off at a point and someone else can hire them ( i think its limited to a short time 1/2 hour or so)

Problem I have is that I live in Essex but work in Herts, therfore I have to use my car each day for commuting, It would be too far to ride a bike, and no public transport exists short of going into City only to come out again into Herts.

My wife needs a car to take our kids to school again too far to walk, and my children are too young to ride a bike to school.

I believe that the technology exists to make good alternatuve fual cars, but big Oil business won't allow it!!

at the moment in the uk I would recommed paddle power

Yeah, I thought all the so-called global warming experts predicted Long Hot Summers....:confused:

Sort of blows them into all proportion :rolleyes:

Experts my A*$e

Ahh. you missed there point - there are long hot summers - just not here ..

as to th ebike solution - this one was for the cities - not the country folk like you - you'll have to harness a pig or something - now various means of doing this - theres side saddle , or you could have a buggy ???

Ahh. you missed there point - there are long hot summers - just not here ..

You could apply that to anything though, so really they are just edging their bets, they could say that global warming would cause it to rain on a Tuesday, and somewhere in the world it would be raining on a Tuesday....therefore a result of Global Warming and all the expensively paid scientists have got it right! :rolleyes:

at the moment in the uk I would recommed paddle power

No help down here in the Dry:cool:

as to th ebike solution - this one was for the cities - not the country folk like you - you'll have to harness a pig or something - now various means of doing this - theres side saddle , or you could have a buggy ???

Don't start mentioning farm animals you'll get me excited :D

Hang on, I can here flossy bleating again, oh she is a game one :D :D

Yeah, I thought all the so-called global warming experts predicted Long Hot Summers....:confused:

Sort of blows them into all proportion :rolleyes:

Experts my A*$e

Whilst they may not get the predictions correct all of the time no one can deny that the seasons haven't changed in my short lifetime, all the concensus is (except for Americans) is that the rapid increase global warming in such a short space of time is man made

Whilst they may not get the predictions correct all of the time no one can deny that the seasons haven't changed in my short lifetime, all the concensus is (except for Americans) is that the rapid increase global warming in such a short space of time is man made

:confused: :confused:

Sorry mate I don't understand, surely this should be that the seasons have changed :confused: :confused:

:confused: :confused:

Sorry mate I don't understand, surely this should be that the seasons have changed :confused: :confused:

Exactly ;)

best small solution , I think the French have - is to have bikes all over the place for short journeys - you hire them as you need them and then drop them off at a point and someone else can hire them ( i think its limited to a short time 1/2 hour or so)

I think it was in Cambridge 5 or 6 years ago, the council suppied dozens of pushbikes and put them at several "centres" where people could use them, leave them at another centre do what you have to do, then get a bike and ride back.

It worked well, but after about 2 weeks, all the bikes had been stolen.

I'm surprised the council never saw that one coming:rolleyes:

On a general note, when the USA, China and India start doing something constructive and stop thinking about money / profits and bribery then maybe I'll think about it - in the meantime, my saving a plastic milk bottle is having bugger-all effect.
We are not going to make any difference even if there is global warming or whatever they call it. (even scientists arn't sure it exists)
These things happen - in the 1800's, the Thames used to freeze, if that happened now they'd have a fit.

Col

Whilst they may not get the predictions correct all of the time no one can deny that the seasons haven't changed in my short lifetime, all the concensus is (except for Americans) is that the rapid increase global warming in such a short space of time is man made

So whats the solution then mate, Martian or Moon colonies?

Talking of Martians, hey perhaps Mars was once like the Earth, and Global Warming wrecked it.....is that our future:confused:

So whats the solution then mate, Martian or Moon colonies?


Change of lifestyle, it'll happen when the planet runs out of natural resources anyway;)

bloody hell you really are going for it ....
let us know how it goes -

g

I guess being the shizzle is a good thing :confused:

Anyway getting our personal ethanol generator "on line" this week will be an additional step towards some independence...

Where's the ethanol come from?

With regard to electric cars...

LOTS of battery research is required. See, batteries wear out and a high-tech, rechargeable battery that doesn't polarize (remember it's last high-charge point and never go past that point again) is VERY expensive.

We had a big furor over a recently released hybrid that was a fuel cell that charged a batter for electric motors. The cost of running the thing was phenomenal - until it was time to replace the battery, and that was fully 50% of the price of the car.

Not to mention that the high-tech batteries are incredibly toxic to our environment once they reach the point of needing replacement. So while it is probably the way to go, we are a LOT farther away from the end of that road than anyone would care to consider.

Oh, so true. Here in South Louisiana we have grain storage facilities along the river where farmers bring their crop for eventual loading on barges. Every so often they clean out the silos and let the effluent go into the river.

One year, my wife and I went on a riverboat cruise to see the Christmas bonfires along the river levees. It is an old tradition and very picturesque. (The bonfires light the way for Papa Noel to find the children on Christmas Eve, or so the old Cajun tradition goes.)

Anyway, on this cruise we passed by several grain elevators. As we approached, we could smell the fermented grain. And we could hear the ducks in the river around the base of the loading facilities. I've heard N'Awlins bars (pubs) full of people that were quieter than these drunken ducks. They were getting fat and happy off that cast-off grain and they had LOTS of friends doing the same thing. I would guess as many as a couple of hundred ducks were "belly up to the bar" at that point.

50-2-1

you amaze me, I knew where the stuff came from , but that you are acutally doing it - fantastic , for the Brits on the forum , its a bit like the Good life ( a comdey soap from the 80's) with Fielicty Kenndal in it - (vote rear of the year for ages)

god - how many typos in that last post

I'll agree that the warming trend is cyclic, has happened before, will happen again, and there's nothing we can do to stop it... but I also think that the depth and severity of the cycle is being increased by our CO2 emissions.

Agreed. How can anyone know what has happened in the past? We have what maybe 200 years of written weather history...I mean that is a drop in the bucket.

Its a cycle of the Earth from periods of cooling to periods of heating. How can anyone think the weather would stay the same forever? Everything changes...including weather patterns.

Everything changes...including weather patterns.

Not as quickly as they are at present they haven't

Fifty2One,
I'm moving in the next few months to TN. My wife and I are pursuing a more 'agricultural' style of life, and are researching methods and technologys to unplug from the grid, and become independant of the supplies of the cities. We'll still be on city water, and for a while, still consume city electricity. We'll have need for petrol products, but you've inspired me to look more into producing my own.

Coming to point: do you have a blog or a website I could reference? You seem quite versed in self-sufficiency already, and I prefer to learn from folks that actually have firsthand knowledge of the subject matter.

there are plenty of site out there giving tips- but as you say first hand knowledge beats all

Did anyone see that Top Gear special last night.

Wicked,

They went to the North Pole, by car, the first people to actually drive all the way to the pole.

Jeremy Clarksons last poignant words of the show, " People say that man and the car is causing global warming and reducing the ice caps, we,ve just driven a car to the north pole, the inconvenient truth is that we haven,t even scratched the surface."

It was a great show and highlighted the harshness of this frozen wilderness.

JC rocks.

Yeah i saw this - JC came accros as a bit of a dick - shouting at a tent and having a tantrum - i know James May (Captain Slow) can drive you mad- but JM was right , but JC tantrums made him looked a right idiot , as for hamster hammond - would of been good to see him finish - that took a lot of guts and inner strength

g

Yeah i saw this - JC came accros as a bit of a dick - shouting at a tent and having a tantrum - i know James May (Captain Slow) can drive you mad- but JM was right , but JC tantrums made him looked a right idiot , as for hamster hammond - would of been good to see him finish - that took a lot of guts and inner strength

g

Yeah I think hammond got the raw deal, although it is a life experience one that you only do once.

I did crack up though when they were cruising across the ice plains in the car sipping G&T's.

Great TV, and of course it did highlight that really the ice caps are still there, they are not melting at any alarming rate that climaters would have us believe.

Again cracking TV.

, and of course it did highlight that really the ice caps are still there, they are not melting at any alarming rate that climaters would have us believe.

.

I don't know how you can draw that inference from the show :confused:

I enjoyed it as a comedy show, which is what all JC's shows are, but how he and JM can consider that they won the race when they had to be rescued by the backup crew twice only shows how shallow he is.

Brian

, and of course it did highlight that really the ice caps are still there, they are not melting at any alarming rate that climaters would have us believe.

.

I don't know how you can draw that inference from the show :confused:

I enjoyed it as a comedy show, which is what all JC's shows are, but how he and JM can consider that they won the race when they had to be rescued by the backup crew twice only shows how shallow he is.

Brian

I don't know how you can draw that inference from the show :confused:


Brian

Did you mean to post that twice to put your point across :D

I enjoyed it as a comedy show, which is what all JC's shows are, but how he and JM can consider that they won the race when they had to be rescued by the backup crew twice only shows how shallow he is.

Brian

I agree, Hammond was the real winner and the star of the show for his sheer endurement of the harsh conditions.

I don't know how you can draw that inference from the show :confused:


Brian

Global Warming scientists are constantly saying how the ice caps are reducing in size and volume due to Pollution from man.

What I drew from the show is that they managed to drive a 3 tonne vehicle across the ice sheets without too much effort....yes I know they had to be rescued on several occasions, but only once was due to ice volume and the vehicle breaking the ice, the rest of the time was due to snow drifts.

I do believe it is just convenient for these scientists to say what they do, because us mere mortals have no way of dis-proving them, I think this show turned that around some what.

And I believe that that was in JC's mind when he took on the challenge.

I say well done JC, another myth exposed :p

when you have icefields break off the size of wales - you know you are in trouble -- ok the ice they were on was x feet thick - but how thick was it in the past - or how far out did the ice fields reach -

has the artic circle shrunk somewhat - it used to include the tip of scotland - does it any more??

has the artic circle shrunk somewhat - it used to include the tip of scotland - does it any more??

During the last Ice age the ice cap came down to Northern tip of Africa !

My point is, the Ice Cap will always shrink and expand over time, as has been shown from history. Except now days we are saying that it is due to Man's ways and pollutions, due to Gloabl Warming.

Last time I checked my history, we did not have any CO2 pumping industries, or CO2 emitting cars, when the Whooly Mammouths roamed the continent

but we were hit by a F*&%$ing big rock then - which throw a dust cloud up causing a drop in the temp etc

we seem to be doing the same without a rock this time..

if a doctors say you need to have surgery cos of a lump you have on your arm , its a bad excuse to say 300 years ago the doctor would not of operated on you but would have used leechs or stinging nettles to try and cure you ( which probably does you no good at all)

90 % of boffings agree that global warming is probably due to man
the other 10 % may be right , but I'll like to play the safe odds - the cost is not that much at the end of the day- oil will run out thats gonna happen, so lets plan ahead now , and find a solutuin thats is as green as poss, coal is limited , gas is in decline

so wind farms are a logical choice, same with wave generators , nuclear is also a must in the short term- recycle makes sense even if its just to keep the planet clean,

as to being truely green , ten this needs tob e done on so many levels , from goverment, manufactors, to consumers


g

but we were hit by a F*&%$ing big rock then - which throw a dust cloud up causing a drop in the temp etc

we seem to be doing the same without a rock this time..

if a doctors say you need to have surgery cos of a lump you have on your arm , its a bad excuse to say 300 years ago the doctor would not of operated on you but would have used leechs or stinging nettles to try and cure you ( which probably does you no good at all)

90 % of boffings agree that global warming is probably due to man
the other 10 % may be right , but I'll like to play the safe odds - the cost is not that much at the end of the day- oil will run out thats gonna happen, so lets plan ahead now , and find a solutuin thats is as green as poss, coal is limited , gas is in decline

so wind farms are a logical choice, same with wave generators , nuclear is also a must in the short term- recycle makes sense even if its just to keep the planet clean,

as to being truely green , ten this needs tob e done on so many levels , from goverment, manufactors, to consumers


g

Firstly I would like to add that your Big Rock theory is about 65 million years out, Whooly Mammoths were around about way after this event.

Secondly I do not disagree with your points, I think that we should be harnassing alternative sources of power, I happen to think that the wind turbines are one of the most majestic things that I have seen and I am all for them.

The point that am trying to raise is that this government and no doubt other governments around the world are using global warming as a way to increase taxes and make people pay even more, increased fuel duty, increased road tax duty, vat on Gas, Electric. It is yet another stealth tax in the name of saving the planet.

I do feel that the earth is going through weather cycles as it as done for so many millions of years. Except now the governments have found a lucrative excuse to tax everybody with.

That is my point.

but we were hit by a F*&%$ing big rock then - which throw a dust cloud up causing a drop in the temp etc

we seem to be doing the same without a rock this time..

if a doctors say you need to have surgery cos of a lump you have on your arm , its a bad excuse to say 300 years ago the doctor would not of operated on you but would have used leechs or stinging nettles to try and cure you ( which probably does you no good at all)

90 % of boffings agree that global warming is probably due to man
the other 10 % may be right , but I'll like to play the safe odds - the cost is not that much at the end of the day- oil will run out thats gonna happen, so lets plan ahead now , and find a solutuin thats is as green as poss, coal is limited , gas is in decline

so wind farms are a logical choice, same with wave generators , nuclear is also a must in the short term- recycle makes sense even if its just to keep the planet clean,

as to being truely green , ten this needs tob e done on so many levels , from goverment, manufactors, to consumers


g

Firstly I would like to add that your Big Rock theory is about 65 million years out, Whooly Mammoths were around way after this event.

Secondly I do not disagree with your points, I think that we should be harnassing alternative sources of power, I happen to think that the wind turbines are one of the most majestic things that I have seen and I am all for them.

The point that i am trying to raise is that this government and no doubt other governments around the world are using global warming as a way to increase taxes and make people pay even more, increased fuel duty, increased road tax duty, vat on Gas, Electric. It is yet another stealth tax in the name of saving the planet.

I do feel that the earth is going through weather cycles as it as done for so many millions of years. Except now the governments have found a lucrative excuse to tax everybody with.

That is my point.

Sorry didn't mean to post this twice !

Sorry didn't mean to post this twice !

Why not delete it then?:confused:

big rock -volcanos some weird shit happened

it was cold otherwise why were the elephants wearing a coat ..
yes the world does have a cycle - sort of like a winter/summer cycle every 10,000 years or so ....
is the goverment doing this just for tax. no - they would just increase it by 1% - i admit it is a good way of getting extra revenue , but oil is running out there are few viable solution to replace this at present,
what would happen if there was a food crisis - the world would probably go in to melt down and you would end up with anarchy (?) Govements try not to go there ..

If we did not trust the Dollar (example) and refuse to accept this as currency - the US would implode , taking all sorts of goverments with it (including the UK)- how would you buy stuff - given that the $ has no real value - no it would be down to bartering and gold/minerals etc ... Global warming could cause this tigger - a bad year in the american bread basket - could lead to war ...

when the oil runs out will the US try to retain all the oil in the Middle east (I am not picking on the Americans here - just a good example to use).. but of course they will , but will France also want this - would be yes ..

this could cause war . so by removing our relance on oil , we become freere of this impact - wind genrators are a good option to offset some of this - they are not the total solution as there are wind free days , _ I tink they are stunning works of modern engineering -

wave genrators also play their part .. but in the end we could be down to working locally - having only locally prodced foods - or imports would have to be on sail boats ...

The idea that goverments are using global warming as an excuse just to increase tax... just does not compute espically as scienctists are the ones to say this first and they had a real job convincing goverments ...
green peace is not a tool of goverment - they are a bunch of tree hugging hippies - but they have been on the alternative energhy band wagon for donkeys

If we have to rely on local produce then we're in the sh*t, there isn't enough here and hasn't been for centuries;)

big rock -volcanos some weird shit happened

it was cold otherwise why were the elephants wearing a coat ..
yes the world does have a cycle - sort of like a winter/summer cycle every 10,000 years or so ....
is the goverment doing this just for tax. no - they would just increase it by 1% - i admit it is a good way of getting extra revenue , but oil is running out there are few viable solution to replace this at present,
what would happen if there was a food crisis - the world would probably go in to melt down and you would end up with anarchy (?) Govements try not to go there ..

If we did not trust the Dollar (example) and refuse to accept this as currency - the US would implode , taking all sorts of goverments with it (including the UK)- how would you buy stuff - given that the $ has no real value - no it would be down to bartering and gold/minerals etc ... Global warming could cause this tigger - a bad year in the american bread basket - could lead to war ...

when the oil runs out will the US try to retain all the oil in the Middle east (I am not picking on the Americans here - just a good example to use).. but of course they will , but will France also want this - would be yes ..

this could cause war . so by removing our relance on oil , we become freere of this impact - wind genrators are a good option to offset some of this - they are not the total solution as there are wind free days , _ I tink they are stunning works of modern engineering -

wave genrators also play their part .. but in the end we could be down to working locally - having only locally prodced foods - or imports would have to be on sail boats ...

The idea that goverments are using global warming as an excuse just to increase tax... just does not compute espically as scienctists are the ones to say this first and they had a real job convincing goverments ...
green peace is not a tool of goverment - they are a bunch of tree hugging hippies - but they have been on the alternative energhy band wagon for donkeys

I cannot argue with any of your points here, I do agree with them all, and I too feel that we should be researching and using alternative power sources.

Unfortunately, due to capitalism, I don't feel that the large oil producers, economies will put the effort that is needed into this, as the more people use alternative power the less profits they make.

The points that i keep trying to make is that everybody is quick to jump onto the Global Warming band wagon and say that we should do this or we should do that, telling us how to live our lives, yet not really providing us with any help to achieve it.
I have to run 2 cars and all the costs that involves, due to my work and my children, I would love to ditch one of them and use public transport which the goverment is aggressively pursuing us to do with their taxation policies, but they are not putting in place the infastructure for us to achieve it.

Again on the news today, and in my mind just another ridiculous notion, Stanstead airport want to plan another terminal, the climaters are getting an Inuit from Iceland to come and petition to the planning committee how another runway will effect his countries climate !!!!!:confused: :confused: :confused:
Stark raving bonkers if you ask me.

I am in no shape way or form dissing anybody who wants to live an alternative lifestyle, who wants to recycle, I too recycle cardboard, glass, paper, garden waste, I too turn my heating off when I do not need it, I too as mentioned would love to ditch a car and use public transport.
But they are my choices, I do not want some so-called expert telling me that i have to do it otherwise i am going to go to hell, based on very intangible evidence. The same intangible evidence that is giving the governments of this world the right to fleece us workers dry with taxation in the name of the PLANET. :mad:

ok, I shall go and take my pill now...:D

:D those pills you are taking , they are not the blue minty ones are they .

I think that the goverment (and I despise this current one) is in a hard place - there are things they should do , and then they interfer where they should not .


it should as you rightly point out be a gradual process ..

simple steps that effect joe public the least will go down a lot easier .

a good example is the low enregy light bulbs, let stop making normal lights bulbs and convert to these

lets make manufactors get there act together- impact on joe public - very little
get joe to recycle as much as poss - great , but lets give him as least as poss to recycle ..
less wrapping , plastic that rots down easier , if you buy a TV , then the supplier must take the old one away free of charge (and recycle -dispose of it)

lets recycle and reduce the land fill - this hopefully will clear up te countryside- cleaner air - all of these are postive

and if the goverment was honest about this and said this is gonna cost everyone £100 - most people would say fair enough ( as long as they can see a result form this )

we should have the convicts going through old rubbish tips and sorting out the recycleing
and riddlaling the rest to see how much as been turned in to soil (composting)

- the convicts should also be made to clean up the inner cities, get them doing work to help clean the planet - this might instal some values inthere empty lives



here I go again rambbling on - I think I need to borrow a couple of your pills

g

[QUOTE=GaryPanic;613416
we should have the convicts going through old rubbish tips and sorting out the recycleing
and riddlaling the rest to see how much as been turned in to soil (composting)

- the convicts should also be made to clean up the inner cities, get them doing work to help clean the planet - this might instal some values inthere empty lives





g[/QUOTE]

You should run for parliment you would get my vote :)

I too feel the same way, it just feels like at the moment we are getting everything thrust onto us, with the message 'you will do this or else' and then not giving us any help to actually achieve it.

Targeting business, less packaging, more bio-degradable packaging, companies recycling old replaced goods, this is the way to go.

Erecting more wind turbines, I live in present at Essex, but am moving to Corby in the Midlands in a couple of months, and just outside of the town they have a massive wind farm of about 30 wind turbines, it is one of the most peaceful and majestic things that I have seen, and I think there should be more of them.

I live in present at Essex, but am moving to Corby in the Midlands in a couple of months,
Traitor!:eek: ;) :D

Col

a good example is the low enregy light bulbs, let stop making normal lights bulbs and convert to these

I know that I am not the only person who finds it difficult to read by these, in addition many take a time to come up to full luminosity, and therefore are not suitable in all cicumstances, unless left on !!
I have also read that like true fluorescent tubes they are difficult and polluting to dispose of, like that Prius car the greens all rave about.

Brian

Brian in your case I can understand , being slightly older and with your dodgey eyesight (I am not taking the mick here) I was talking in general -- i think that if we had to have these eco bulbs - technology would catch up ...
yes they do take some time to warm up.. a couple of secs nothing to get overly excited over, and if the wattage is not enough get a higher wattage and see if this helps..

but its a starting place if 5% of our electrical needs are lighting then reducing this down by 80% makes sense - its the first option , then less packaging - which has a straight knock on effect - less rubbish

also when plastics are being used have rot down ones
I would like to get away from foods wrapped in plastic , but I can understand that certain items may need to be wrapped . but it is over done


i ramble :p

sussed it Brian - you could wear a miners hat with a light on it and have the battery charged by moving your leg up and down - two fold effect here , a bit of exercise for you and free electricity ,, and if your feeling up to it we coudl plug your laptop in as well - this though might involve running round your front room for 20 mins to get a decent charge .. or do you have a dog that you could strap into a hamster type cage and runa dyno off ??? lol (only kidding) , well about the dog, might get into trouble with the RSPCA,

It's ok Gary , the family have always taken the mick. I do believe in trying, the wife says I'm very trying, and we do have 4 low energy bulbs in the house where lights are on most, but not in my reading lamp, nor on the stairs.
We are definitely into recylcing and make max use of our greenhouse to grow food not flowers, but otherwise the garden is too small for anything but a few fruit bushes.


Brian

sussed it Brian - you could wear a miners hat with a light on it and have the battery charged by moving your leg up and down -,


Which leg?

Brian

not the false on otherwise your disturbe the neighbours..

I have been growing my own food this year - carrots great success
potatioes diaster as where the Tomatos (weather) but the plums/damsons are manic - its either jam or wine - I plumping for the wine

apples this year - not so good - but last year manic - these seem to go in a 2 year cycle ..
spring onions ok, spinach -(yuck) went great , but i don't like it - sweetcorn seems to be doing ok as are the beans , butter nut squash - haven't work out and the leeks look good so far

I have done this in prepareation to show my duaghter that vegs comes from t he ground and not sainsburys /tesco (however she only 18 months old )

I have done this in prepareation to show my duaghter that vegs comes from t he ground and not sainsburys /tesco (however she only 18 months old )

LOL :D

brian

I have been watching the news about the terrible flooding in parts of England. Having been involved less than two years ago in flooding of a major sort myself, my heart goes out to those affected.

My advice: Hang in there, be patient, and realize that it will take you more than a few weeks to sort out the mess. Because of a sudden surge in demand, it will be harder to schedule visits by handymen, carpenters, or just about any other repair tradesman. They will be making money until they drop from exhaustion because of that demand. They will also be answering demands from literally ten or a hundred times their normal business traffic, so give them a chance to catch their breaths now and then.

It IS possible to survive a flood that trashes a house. I lost just about my entire first floor, but with hard work, money, and patience - 50% each... wait that's more than 100%... - you can make it through. Your own patience will be stretched to its limits. You will swear that you can't take it any more. (You might just swear. A LOT.) But here in New Orleans, life it slowly taking shape again even in the neighborhoods where the water was up to the eaves of the houses. It can happen on your side of th pond, too.

Doc , your thoughts are welcome - and i am sure the guys who are affected would thank yuo for it, but at present there hip deep in mud..
Doesn't affect me, I am in Kent and half way up a hill.

The flooding has done a lot of damage, but the insurance guys are out there doing there thing (i am in insurnace, and i have appointed loss adjusters to clients .

IOt will take a while to get it sorted , but this is gonna be due to a lack of skiled workers - and not insurance, watch the insurance premiums go up next year (premiums of the many to pay the claims of the few- however there more than a few this time )

g

On the Friday that the floods started I spent some time with people who had been flooded out in Evesham, with a 4 star hotel booked less than 30 miles away we spent the night on the floor of the leisure centre having got into Evesham but unable to get out.
In the room we slept !?! in we were the only non locals and we had to admire the spirit of these people some escaped from mobile homes with only their pets, there were 3 dogs and 2 cats in the room.
The behaviour of the children and pets was superb, infact the only fly in the ointment was a moaning lorry driver.
The young volunteers looking after us providing food and drinks were fantastic, even though they had been there without sleep for over 14 hours when we were able to make a dash for home at 8 on the Saturday morning.

We lost a weekend , many have lost irreplaceable treasures.

Brian

a good example is the low enregy light bulbs, let stop making normal lights bulbs and convert to these

g

Wrong

There has been a recent dictate by Brussells completely banning the use of mercury in the manufacture of aneroid barometers (stay with me). This has completely wiped out a small industry.

They have also passed a dictate that existing tungstem bulds will be banned in about 2009 (not sure about date) so that we will all be forced to use these low energo eco bulbs. but

The new bulbs contain mercury.... and a damn site more nmercury will then be dumped in land fill sites than the Barometer industry used in 20 years.

There is also the debate that says existing bulbs supply Heat and Light. Therefore the missing heat element will need to be replaced by running your boiler longer oh yes and the increased energy required to produce the low energy eco stuff outways the enery savings anyway.

So in conclusion

Brussells stuffs a small industry....created greater enery use....contaminates land fill sites in a single stroke.

Read the Beano it contains more sense

L

Thanks for putting meat on my post(#79) Len, I knew I had read some stuff on this but couldn't remember the details. Greens and Veggies are always getting things ar~~ about face.

Brian

There are two ways to go "Green"

1) Stand in a compost heap for extended period
2) Use energy unconverted in an efficient manner.

1) Is quite straightforward...2) Could do with explaining

Energy can neither be created or destroyed...Fact 1

Each time you convert energy into a different form you loose some of it.. Fact 2

So start with

bucket of coal
Burn it to liberate heat
Some goes up chimney some boils water
Send steam to turbine
Some steam lost and some heat lost out of steam via pipes I know they are lagged but losses occur
Energy from steam spins turbine at 3000 rpm. Losses in energy in steam in spinning turbine, also friction losses
Exhaust steam fed to condenser to return to boiler as water. Condenser coolant dumped otherwise it would get too hot to condense steam

Turbine creates electricity... losses here again

Losses within national grid
Losses in transformers

and finally it gets to the damn light bulb when the remaining energy is converted into Heat and Light when is where we started when we burnt the bucket of damn coal.

Moral

Think it through and understand what you want to do and then go about it in a logical structured manner. Unlike Politicions and Management

No the logical answer to the above is not replace light bulbs with coal buckets... but think about victorian gas lamps. Maybe not so daft

L

Wrong


L

Same as the glorious government wanting everybody to switch to condensing boilers. The condensate released into the drains from these things is eventually going to kill off all the bacteria in the sewerage farms, but we'll worry about that later or breed super bacteria:rolleyes:
How do these tw%*s get into power:mad:

Same as the glorious government wanting everybody to switch to condensing boilers. The condensate released into the drains from these things is eventually going to kill off all the bacteria in the sewerage farms, but we'll worry about that later or breed super bacteria:rolleyes:
How do these tw%*s get into power:mad:

So its not just hot water? Guess I'm just plain ignorant on this.

What is it Rich, I want to dazzle my family?:D

Brian

The condensate produced by the boiler is mildly acidic, it can't be discharged through copper pipes, only plastic. Two choices, either dig a soakaway and fill it with limestone chippings, or pipe it into the drainage system. The condensate is produced because of the lower flue gas temp. Still they're more efficient so when we all make the change global warming will cease:rolleyes:

Thanks Rich, I feel empowered. :D

Brian

Technically speaking I think

methane CH4 burns to CO2 and H2O assuming complete combustion and therefore no CO

The H2O is above 100 deg C and therefore steam. The condensing boiler condenses this steam to water and a small amount of CO2 is dissolved in the water. This produces H2CO4 which is carbonic acid.

Now I think this is correct but Iam going back to Chenistry taught at school a loooooooooooong time ago

Be glad to hear if the long term memory is still functioning

L

Len, you are absolutely correct. My "Doc" is a PhD in Chemistry. I know I can give you guys a pain sometimes since I'm not a DB purist, but in this case you've gotten it spot on and I can confirm it.

To further complicate matters, the purity of the methane governs just how completely the gas burns, but it ALSO governs the completeness of the conversion you mentioned. For ALL hydrocarbons burned in the presence of available oxygen, you have what is at its heart an oxidizing atmosphere. (SOME HEAT + OXYGEN) = OXIDIZING.

Starting from simple hydrocarbons, e.g. methane, ethane, propane, butane, pentane, ..., octane: Add oxygen with energy. First conversion is to add one oxygen and convert to alcohol. (Methane + O2 + Heat) passes through methanol. Ethane --> Ethanol.

Heat + O2 -> 2 O. (the latter, O-dot, is called a free radical.)

xxxCH3 + O. --> xxxCH2OH (The later is an alcohol and is formed because the radical attacs the carbon. The reason is that the carbon has the electrons and the radical is more stable when it has more electrons around it.)

Second step continues to add oxygen, and the point where you added that first Oxygen atom is a prime location for further addition because of electron density issues. So you get carbonic acid as the second step (for methane) and acetic acid for ethane and others for higher hydrocarbons. If you do this near pentane, you get caprolic acid, which bears an odor uncannily similar to goat sweat.

Subsequent steps add more oxygen, leading to breaking of carbon bonds (C-C) to form C=O bonds eventually leading to O=C=O (which is carbon dioxide.)

It takes a REALLY hot environment to complete the conversion in a way that drives off the water left behind by that process. If you don't, you have the compex group H2O.CO2 which is also written as H2CO3 which is carbonic acid. Only with a really hot flame can you drive off the water - again because of electron density issues and oxygen's electrophilicity. It likes to be around electrons. CO2 has a good "electron cloud" but that water associated with the reaction doesn't "want" to leave unless you give it reason to do so. Like enough energy to break the electrophilic attraction.

I hope you guys don't mind if I stick with Rich since I didn't even get A level Chemistry :(

Brian

It isn't as complex as our scientists here would have, it's really a result of recovering some more of the heat from flue gases that would normally have just been lost. The flue gas is now usually well below 100 unlike older boilers;)

I hope you guys don't mind if I stick with Rich since I didn't even get A level Chemistry :(

Brian

I don't know what A level Chemistry is but even that sounds way above my head :p

I was just impressed with myself in that at my age the short term memory remembered where the long term memory was and the long term memory was still working.

Wonder what else is there ??????.

L

The condensate produced by the boiler is mildly acidic, it can't be discharged through copper pipes, only plastic. Two choices, either dig a soakaway and fill it with limestone chippings, or pipe it into the drainage system. The condensate is produced because of the lower flue gas temp. Still they're more efficient so when we all make the change global warming will cease:rolleyes:

Depending on the gas composition one uses, there might also be H2S and N2
in the condensate. The H2S is the component that gives the acid.
Here in NL, all check valves for condensate draining are bronze. Provided the
H2S vol % is <1 and the condensate temp is below 42ºC, the SO2 will not
lead to bronze corrosion.

Just my 2€ cts :rolleyes:

There are two ways to go "Green"

1) Stand in a compost heap for extended period


But how green is it to have a compost heap when they can give off Methane which is a powerful greenhouse gas. Perhaps we should try to capture the methane to use as fuel in our boilers.

Perhaps we just have to learn to adapt to global warming

Depending on the gas composition one uses, there might also be H2S and N2
in the condensate. The H2S is the component that gives the acid.
Here in NL, all check valves for condensate draining are bronze. Provided the
H2S vol % is <1 and the condensate temp is below 42ºC, the SO2 will not
lead to bronze corrosion.

Just my 2€ cts :rolleyes:

I'm afraid we left the bronze age behind some time ago:eek: :D

I don't know what A level Chemistry is

The same as O level but with a few more difficult questions;)

I'm afraid we left the bronze age behind some time ago:eek: :D

What, you guys turned back to the claystone check valves ? ;) :D

Methane will never catch on.
There are no huge corporations with dozens of political lobbyists and mega million advertising campaigns to push it through.
The other energy sources which do have these things will kill it.

We currently have an electricity crunch in Ontario. The Provincial government is talking about building more Nuclear plants to fill the gap.
We have 3 coal fired generating plants which were closed as part of a political promise after the last election. Anytime someone suggests they be converted to Natural gas or to "clean" coal, the Greenies shout them down even though the above conversions would cost a fraction of a reactor and would be ecologically sound.

Chickens

That's the answer to going green

Okay

1) Chicken on treadmill generates electricity
2) Chicken manure into methane digester. another energy source
3) Chickens lay eggs another energy source
4) Chicken doesn't lay eggs... eat chicken... another energy source

Okay so you have to feed them a bit but that cannot be abad thing based on the energy return

Scale it up a bit and problem solved. need a bit of tidying up okay but what do we have scientists and the like for... give them something constructive to do

L

...need a bit of tidying up okay but what do we have scientists and the like for...just convert to a dual-purpose sh*te conveyor/treadmill...

We already get enough chicket sh*te coming from the government.
Maybe we can convert to politician burning electrical generating plants.
I just have to come up with a way to make them burn "clean".

Since when was carbon a bad thing?
Aint we all carbon based life forms??

Maybe thats why the earth is trying to wipe us out!
hmmmm???

On the Friday that the floods started I spent some time with people who had been flooded out in Evesham, with a 4 star hotel booked less than 30 miles away we spent the night on the floor of the leisure centre having got into Evesham but unable to get out.

The young volunteers looking after us providing food and drinks were fantastic, even though they had been there without sleep for over 14 hours when we were able to make a dash for home at 8 on the Saturday morning.

Brian

Brian - Glad you had a pleasant (sic) experience You were accommodated by courtesy of the Authority I work for. Where do I send the account?:D

Brian - Glad you had a pleasant (sic) experience You were accommodated by courtesy of the Authority I work for. Where do I send the account?:D

Is it you I complain to that the pool was not in use. :p ;)

Brian

Actually Barry when we got home we realised we had no address for the centre and no names other than Frances, I tried to find it on the Net to send our thanks and failed, time passed and well maybe its a little late now but if you can recommend a name and address I would still send an Email or letter of thanks, they were really great.

Brian

Is it you I complain to that the pool was not in use. :p ;)

Brian

No - different department.;)

Actually Barry when we got home we realised we had no address for the centre and no names other than Frances, I tried to find it on the Net to send our thanks and failed, time passed and well maybe its a little late now but if you can recommend a name and address I would still send an Email or letter of thanks, they were really great.

Brian

It's always good to get a pat on the back, delayed or not . I'll PM you with the details. Cheers