This post was sparked from the yellow school bus post. After reading over the discussion I noticed something. There are obviously a lot of people who buy into the things companies are doing to help the environment. Many of which are lip service. I will illustrate my point further below. I should mention that I am unaware of the situation in the UK and some of this may not apply. Also I should note that these are my own observations.

I will start with the comment made in the school bus post about running these buses on Bio. Some things to consider about bio diesels, does anyone know how much deep fryer grease it takes to run a bus? Multiply that by however many buses. It would hardly make a dent in the pollution output especially when you consider that you have to ship all the grease and you have to process it somewhere and then ship it back to the bus garage. You’re going to use 2 barrels of oil to save 1 barrel.

Ok away from fuels for a minute, Garbage disposal. In Ontario I know there has been a big push from some of the major super markets to purchase "green" bags. because this will save thousands of tons of garbage as these bags are re-usable and only cost a dollar. Lets really look at what is happening here for a second. The company looks like they are doing their part, the consumer is fronting the bill because they have to purchase the bags, and now people have to buy kitchen garbage bags for under the sink (typically) instead of using the old shopping bags, so unless you are a person who throws away hundreds of plastic bags instead of re-using them as garbage bags, you aren’t doing squat for the environment.

Drive through: Recently there has been a push to limit or stop drive throughs. A new food chain in London (Ontario) specializing in organic food has "done their part" by not having a drive through. Now most of you probably think this is a great idea, it should be taken with a grain of salt however. Consider the fact that when a car is warm and running at optimum temperature many of the measurable pollutants are almost nothing due to the fact that they get burned off in the catalytic converter (I have seen the test results to prove it, many cars blow 1 ppm or less for such things are co2.) However when a car starts up the catalytic converter is cold and does not do its job. In the first few minutes that car pollutes in the range of 80 times that of when it is warm. And that's still at Idle; if the driver decides to drive while the car is cold the numbers are even higher. So the 10 minutes in the drive through does no more damage to the environment than the person who went in, turned off the car, put more wear on the engine by starting it 30 minutes later and then driving it cold.

Green bins: In my city they are proposing green bins. This is a bin for bio garbage, which a truck comes around and picks up weekly. Oh and the tax payers front the bill of course! this is better than having a composter in your own backyard how? And really is bio garbage really the worst thing to have in the dumps? Hardly! But apparently making a bunch of plastic bins and driving trucks around all day to pick up stuff that could be composted helps the environment.

ok good enough for now, I’m interested to see who will hate what I say and who will have more to add.
Oh and it's true the only real way to fix things is to take some SERIOUS actions, this quick fix do your part almost painless bull...well its all just lip service.
If you really want to help the environment, its going to hurt.

preach on brotha man!!

decent post ..
but lets start with cooking oil
running vechiles of this - not nessaryly school buses but some lorries - now let do an ideal world

1 - lets collect the oil - lets use a truck/lorry running off biofeul to pick it up
makes sense -, ok the lorry has to take oil to be converted - how about where the lorry stays over night ???
now the oil is no longer in the sewage system - so you don't need to process the water as much - sewer systems get clogged up with fat/oils .
lets use a few council vechicles to run of oil we are reusing the oil that would otherwise be thrown down the drain -
saving money (bio fuel is cheaper than petrol/diesel) in the UK is a £1 per litre - biofuel is about 65 pence to 70 ish .

Plastic bags- are an issue - and here in the UK - some towns are in trail banning them and using paper or cornstarch paper ..the jury is still out on these .

There is a bus being run on sheeps urine in wales - and while this is a PR stunt - its a trial on alternative energy - so it might lead somewhere

Methane gas collectors work in the country and we had a posting on this which was pretty good - really only viable to country folk - not townie

here in the UK they are considering weight your rubbish and charging you for it -(bad idea as most people will burn it to reduce the weight )

we here in Kent (South east of England - below London and to the right )
have bi-weekly rubblish - bio collections 1 week rubbish the other biodegradable stuff. - not a fan of this - but then i have a large enough garden to compost most of my bio stuff anyway


As to drive throughs -- unheard of here in the UK - i think we have a few Macdonald drive throughs - but other than that you get out and do the shopping .

the solution well here's my pennies worth
1- reduce the packaging at source
we as consumers are lazy - so do it for us)
2- minor changes do have an effect- if we all replaced a light bulb with an energy efficent one - this would have an effect - small change by the individual large impact by the masses.
3 Bring back sailing ships certain items don't need to be there in a hurry so using wind power to move goods kinda makes sense .

4 try to buy local whereever possible - I don't know why its more expenseive - but it is

5 Grown your own (I know its not always an option)
I want my daughter (nearly 2) to grown up and know that carrots come from the ground and not the supermarket same with fruit -(I get a bit of exercise from digging as well).

these are just a few ideas
others are if your going for a walk take a bag with your an pick up 5-10 bits of rubbish - if we all did this then the ground would be a lot tidier.

if we want to really go for it then all new building would have to have solar panels- super insolation .

if we want to really push the boat out then impose a fine on buildings that don't have loft insolution - make the fine say £300.00 - then employ someone to go round and check all buildings and if you don't have this loft insolation then you have 4 weeks to get ti sorted or face a fine and then have to pay to have the insolution put in .

Yea, it does appear that a lot of the "Better Ideas" when actually investigated (not the "sounds good to me" crowd not withstanding) turn out to actually cause more problem than they solve. It would appear the little bit by a lot of folks is a better place to start. Could you imagine the savings if say (I live in the South here in the US of A) most homes just had a couple of solar panels that generated a bit of electricity each? Megawatts of power that Coal or Gas would not have to be burned. But NO, we are not allowed to install them. So we use florescent lights instead of incandescent (cuts my lighting from about 1500 watts to 325 watts), plant trees to shade the house so the AC is somewhat less. I do have a compost bin. An easy one, just an old plastic trash can with holes in the bottom I drop bio-garbage in, and earth worms when I run across them.
Do I recycle, nope. Where is the saving is driving 12 miles and back to recycle a couple pounds of cans? Seems there are some real changes that need to be put in place before some of these do become effective.

My own favorite is the fuel-cell cars. Sounds great, environmentally friendly - but the motors and cells burn out and you have to buy something just about as expensive as the original car every 5 years or so. So you have this expensive, exotic-metals motor that you had to replace - or the whole car - and its METAL. It isn't bio-degradable unless you are willing to wait for it to corrode to sand.

Solar cells as a REPLACEMENT (not supplement) for coal plants used to be fun to discuss. Until someone did the math and showed that it would take solar cells the size of the state of Oregon to run one large city. And of course, since photosynthesis depends on sunlight that would be intercepted by solar cells, everything under the cells DIES. Eco-friendly? Not! The idea of putting cells on a roof as a SUPPLEMENT is good, since that is otherwise wasted square footage.

I've also seen someone who made a low-power heat engine by making a black roof with pipes running through the roof to absorb and transport the heat elsewhere. Not photoelectric, but using solar energy absorption as a heat source anyway. That appears to have some merit. Again, it relieves the heating system of having to raise the temperature of the water that extra three to five degrees.

Wind turbines are another good idea for some areas that have natural thermal gradients that lead to onshore/offshore breezes on a regular basis. Heck, the math is hard but I think you can actually reduce the temperature of the planet if you put up enough wind turbines. Has to do with the fact that heat energy is being USED when the wind drives the turbine, so in theory that air has to be cooler after pushing a turbine than before it hit the turbine. It might take a pretty good thermometer to drive that experiment, but the math says it MUST be that way based on the laws of thermodynamics.

human contribution to global warming is something like 5.38% ergo quit all this global warming crap and go with the flow its a natural cycle of the world & history proves this (Iceage's etc...) sure we're speeding it up a little but in the words of Agent Smith in the matrix & Hans Blix in Team America: "It is inevitable" all this crap about Honda prius's being better for the environment is aload crap.. i mean the fuel consumption on a prius is as honda claim 57.6 which is bullsh*t & obviously stated throughout the numerous car reviews it is actually more around the 45-50mpg mark.. oh and did i mention the big f*off battery on the prius needs replacing every 5 years.. now that is some serious pollutants rite there! So not only is the fuel efficiency the same as your average diesel car it also sh*ts out a nice big battery... niice you will probably find in the long run that the prius causes more pollution as an overall statistic. Oh i did i mention that my VW Golf GT TDi 2001 does 70mpg if i drive it like a saint and 60mpg if i put my foot down.
Sorry for the rant I've had enough of all this global warming bollocks... so we mite be speeding it up a cuple hundred thousand years, sod it. & the interest of global warming specifically focused upon the output of motor vehicles & planes is ridiculous. The average output from a plane is mile better then aspects such as the fuel powered trains/boats etc.. Also remember that that beefburger your eating, well the original herd (i would say cow but i very much doudt that meat in a burger is from one particular cow anymore) it came from collectively produce's a more damaging effect on the environment than the human race as a whole. blah blah blah its a never ending argument and dont get me wrong Im not saying we arnt contributing I'm just saying that in comparison to other contributors we are but a small amount & thats why i get so annoyed at everyone going "omg global warming" I strikes me that the world is very similar to the human body in the fact that everything seems to be bad for it you just have to take it in moderation thus im saying get a decent fuel performer car if your local transport is crap (i.e. the majority of the uk), recycle etc.. etc... etc... Oh and i like the wind turbines idea because they look friggin awsome !

human contribution to global warming is something like 5.38% ergo quit all this global warming crap and go with the flow its a natural cycle of the world & history proves this (Iceage's etc...) sure we're speeding it up a little but in the words of Agent Smith in the matrix & Hans Blix in Team America: "It is inevitable" all this crap about Honda prius's being better for the environment is aload crap.. i mean the fuel consumption on a prius is as honda claim 57.6 which is bullsh*t & obviously stated throughout the numerous car reviews it is actually more around the 45-50mpg mark.. oh and did i mention the big f*off battery on the prius needs replacing every 5 years.. now that is some serious pollutants rite there! So not only is the fuel efficiency the same as your average diesel car it also sh*ts out a nice big battery... niice you will probably find in the long run that the prius causes more pollution as an overall statistic. Oh i did i mention that my VW Golf GT TDi 2001 does 70mpg if i drive it like a saint and 60mpg if i put my foot down.
Sorry for the rant I've had enough of all this global warming bollocks... so we mite be speeding it up a cuple hundred thousand years, sod it. & the interest of global warming specifically focused upon the output of motor vehicles & planes is ridiculous. The average output from a plane is mile better then aspects such as the fuel powered trains/boats etc.. Also remember that that beefburger your eating, well the original herd (i would say cow but i very much doudt that meat in a burger is from one particular cow anymore) it came from collectively produce's a more damaging effect on the environment than the human race as a whole. blah blah blah its a never ending argument and dont get me wrong Im not saying we arnt contributing I'm just saying that in comparison to other contributors we are but a small amount & thats why i get so annoyed at everyone going "omg global warming" I strikes me that the world is very similar to the human body in the fact that everything seems to be bad for it you just have to take it in moderation thus im saying get a decent fuel performer car if your local transport is crap (i.e. the majority of the uk), recycle etc.. etc... etc... Oh and i like the wind turbines idea because they look friggin awsome !


blimey thats some rant -- did you stop to breath - feel better now thats off your chest (LOL)
most of this is correct- but we do need to do more if not for the global warnming - just to keep the country tidy ...
replace coal burners with wind generators will imporve the air quality - even nuclear would be better -clear (as long as it does not go tits up)
wave generators will replace gas /coal etc
as to transport ..thats a hard one

Not giving a Nobel peace prize to a man with a carbon footprint the size of his NIMBY fat arse would have sent out the right message. (thats if you beleive in the western corporate imperialist version of the Da Vinci code called Global Warming, would be daft to give him the prize if you don't beleive in Global warming also)

I shall be boycotting dynamite as a result of this farce.

exactly instead of everyone raving about global warming just stfu and wait for the government to enact common sense policies such was wave / wind turbines etc..

[QUOTE=Pauldohert;643484]if you don't beleive in Global warming )
QUOTE]

Global Warming prediction, justification and scaremongering has developed into a multi millon (perhaps multi billion) dollar, worldwide money-making machine. There are so many fat cat politicians, academics and "consultatnts" milking it that whether it is a fact or not (and I side with the sceptics here) is irrelevant.

I have no problem with the human race taking steps to preserve the planet (it seems to make a certain sense) by better husbandry of resources but climate change has been with us since day one.

If our (UK) politicians really cared about finite resources they'd have kicked the building industry up the arse and made it illegal to build anything that failed to meet Finnish standards of insulation, set up grants to help Joe Public upgrade their properties with insulation and energy saving devices and created a programme of railway buiding to get the bloody, fume belching lorries off our cramped roads.

new builds should have solar panels - the cost at this stage is relavtively cheap .
one of the building companies(begins with a S ) all of their builds use grey water collectors for use in the loo (its filtered etc ) and they have been doing this for about 7-8 years - ok its not a big thing but its a start
reduces the water bill(remember all new builds have water meters -so saves money )

I have looked in to wind generators on a normal home and the general view is that first insulate your home to the max , then solar (only if you house faces that way) and wind only if its viable being in the S.E of england and not on the coast - not an option

Both sides have made excellent points but the main contibutor to the Global warning effect remains industry. While we can all make contributions in our personal lives, how about governments putting aside a certain percentage of the annual budget for low interest or even no interest loans to industry to clean up their act.
As a start, coal fired electricity plants can be converted to natural gas. Burns a lot cleaner.

THe UK is already doing this - slightly different;y than you outline ..
but what it needs to do is go in with boots on - right if you polute you get fined - given them a reasonable time to fix and then if not re-fine set another time - big fine time (and I mean big) also imprison the directors of the company - that should get some mo0vement ...

int he UK and Euroep you can trade your pollution - so if I save my CO2 emissions and I get below the treshhold - i can sell my extra lee way off to a company that will fail to met its target and there by offset the fine ..
the idea is noce but the treshold was set was a minor reduction - it should of been 25% - but it was probably 5% ....
barstards...

new builds should have solar panels - the cost at this stage is relavtively cheap .


With the amont of sun and heat we get here they're pointless

tru rich tru.. it has been a sucky sucky year...


Both sides have made excellent points but the main contibutor to the Global warning effect remains industry


its volcano's actually bastard things attribute like 60+% then at the other end of the scale its humans. & remember alotta people get confuse with Global Warming and Pollution in general. But if stats man was just talking about humans then yes industry & governemnt ineptitude is the king of the castle!

Ok well, some interesting points so far. I do agree that Global warming will happen regardless. Lets be honnest it wasn't exactly cold in the time of the T-rex. So clearly it is a cycle.
being a more efficient species regardless of your global warming position is a good idea. most of the stuff is logical. insulate your house as to not spend as much to heat it. Why pee in your drinking water?
Some of the stuff isn't as simple though. It's all about money, which is why solar isn't on every residence around the world. Nuclear is by far our best bet from a practical energy source aspect. Wind and waves and geothermal are all nice but still too expensive to be done at a scale that will power the majority. That being said, there are 2 main problems. The uk could stop pollution COMPLETELY come tomarrow and they are still going to be breathing in crap. Pollution from the US (i know i'm singling out the US and there are PLENTY of other countries i could use) anyways..pollution from the U.S does not stay over the U.S countries need to work as a single global entity (good luck) in order to do anything truely constructive. If Pollution in the U.S was banned, well all the companies would move to Mexico or India or China or something. so what good would it do the U.S NONE! because now the U.S would be out tons of money in economic growth and still be breathing in pollution. if someone has a fix for that problem please voice it loudly!
Second big problem is obviously power. We are all power hungry, the problem is our power systems. Wind turbines might turn at night for example, if nobody has their lights on then all that "clean power" was useless. power has to be used as it's made (more or less) and we need a way to change that. i'm thinking something along the lines of Hydrogen production with un-used energy from windturbines or any alternate source for that matter, even Nuclear would be more effecient if un-used energy could be stored in another form.

THe UK is already doing this - slightly different;y than you outline ..
but what it needs to do is go in with boots on - right if you polute you get fined - given them a reasonable time to fix and then if not re-fine set another time - big fine time (and I mean big) also imprison the directors of the company - that should get some mo0vement ...

int he UK and Euroep you can trade your pollution - so if I save my CO2 emissions and I get below the treshhold - i can sell my extra lee way off to a company that will fail to met its target and there by offset the fine ..
the idea is noce but the treshold was set was a minor reduction - it should of been 25% - but it was probably 5% ....
barstards...

Why fine me for having no insulation - I can't even afford to turn the heating or lights on anyway (they were cut off!) but the queen can easily afford to insulate - leave the 50,000 lights on and heat a palace - and you don't fine her at all.

still works -its sun light not heat that matters on phot whatsits

check the solar sites and there feed backs

Why fine me for having no insulation - I can't even afford to turn the heating or lights on anyway (they were cut off!) but the queen can easily afford to insulate - leave the 50,000 lights on and heat a palace - and you don't fine her at all.

she has her own water generator --

Add me to the civil list and everyone else - and we'll all get one too.

Lots of good points but what are you doing to solve the problems aside from ranting or agreeing with certain points?
Aside from reading lights ours are solar regenerated in our home. We have two wind turbines for my shop tools and lights. I drive a moped to work and only burned 10 gallons of gasoline communing since April which includes combining trips to shop for newspaper and groceries on the way home. We compost, use shopping bags and not plastic which we have done for years. We recycle all our plastic metal and paper waste.
We run our farm equipment on ethanol which we produce ourselves in a solar still which is sourced mostly from corn and our own high sugar content compostable waste. The CO2 from the production of ethanol is vented into our greenhouse and the left over slurry is animal feed.

Lots of good points but what are you doing to solve the problems aside from ranting or agreeing with certain points?
Aside from reading lights ours are solar regenerated in our home. We have two wind turbines for my shop tools and lights. I drive a moped to work and only burned 10 gallons of gasoline communing since April which includes combining trips to shop for newspaper and groceries on the way home. We compost, use shopping bags and not plastic which we have done for years. We recycle all our plastic metal and paper waste.
We run our farm equipment on ethanol which we produce ourselves in a solar still which is sourced mostly from corn and our own high sugar content compostable waste. The CO2 from the production of ethanol is vented into our greenhouse and the left over slurry is animal feed.

well its a start (lol)

Lots of good points but what are you doing to solve the problems aside from ranting or agreeing with certain points?
Aside from reading lights ours are solar regenerated in our home. We have two wind turbines for my shop tools and lights. I drive a moped to work and only burned 10 gallons of gasoline communing since April which includes combining trips to shop for newspaper and groceries on the way home. We compost, use shopping bags and not plastic which we have done for years. We recycle all our plastic metal and paper waste.
We run our farm equipment on ethanol which we produce ourselves in a solar still which is sourced mostly from corn and our own high sugar content compostable waste. The CO2 from the production of ethanol is vented into our greenhouse and the left over slurry is animal feed.

Nothing!, I am awaiting legislation and industy to act - my leader on this is Gore - I too have no personal repsonsibility! - and a carbon footprint the size of my arse - mines a little more pert than his!

Why fine me for having no insulation - I can't even afford to turn the heating or lights on anyway (they were cut off!) but the queen can easily afford to insulate - leave the 50,000 lights on and heat a palace - and you don't fine her at all.

Go on benefits, you'll then get free insulation a free highly efficient heat boiler and system:rolleyes:

What really pisses me off is that with just one per cent of the worlds population we are responsible for just 2% of the worlds carbon emmissions, the mighty US with 8% of the worlds population is responsible for 25%. We may as well just be pissing in the wind because they have no intention of lowering theirs, especially under that pr*ck Bush:mad:

human contribution to global warming is something like 5.38% ergo quit all this global warming crap and go with the flow its a natural cycle of the world & history proves this (Iceage's etc...) sure we're speeding it up a little but in the words of Agent Smith in the matrix & Hans Blix in Team America: "It is inevitable" all this crap about Honda prius's being better for the environment is aload crap.. i mean the fuel consumption on a prius is as honda claim 57.6 which is bullsh*t & obviously stated throughout the numerous car reviews it is actually more around the 45-50mpg mark.. oh and did i mention the big f*off battery on the prius needs replacing every 5 years.. now that is some serious pollutants rite there! So not only is the fuel efficiency the same as your average diesel car it also sh*ts out a nice big battery... niice you will probably find in the long run that the prius causes more pollution as an overall statistic. Oh i did i mention that my VW Golf GT TDi 2001 does 70mpg if i drive it like a saint and 60mpg if i put my foot down.
Sorry for the rant I've had enough of all this global warming bollocks... so we mite be speeding it up a cuple hundred thousand years, sod it. & the interest of global warming specifically focused upon the output of motor vehicles & planes is ridiculous. The average output from a plane is mile better then aspects such as the fuel powered trains/boats etc.. Also remember that that beefburger your eating, well the original herd (i would say cow but i very much doudt that meat in a burger is from one particular cow anymore) it came from collectively produce's a more damaging effect on the environment than the human race as a whole. blah blah blah its a never ending argument and dont get me wrong Im not saying we arnt contributing I'm just saying that in comparison to other contributors we are but a small amount & thats why i get so annoyed at everyone going "omg global warming" I strikes me that the world is very similar to the human body in the fact that everything seems to be bad for it you just have to take it in moderation thus im saying get a decent fuel performer car if your local transport is crap (i.e. the majority of the uk), recycle etc.. etc... etc... Oh and i like the wind turbines idea because they look friggin awsome !
Enjoying reading uour posts, mate. Some well made points in there, but you've got to start adding some paragraphs. Take pity on us poor readers, eh? :)

What really pisses me off is that with just one per cent of the worlds population we are responsible for just 2% of the worlds carbon emmissions, the mighty US with 8% of the worlds population is responsible for 25%. We may as well just be pissing in the wind because they have no intention of lowering theirs, especially under that pr*ck Bush:mad:

Actually Rich, not that I'm a fan of the man, he personally has done his part to help conserve energy with the ranch house he had built...

http://www.snopes.com/politics/bush/house.asp

Back to lurk mode

The new player in the Greenhouse effect is China.
Booming economy, factories opening all over the place, steel mills galore

AND NO REGULATIONS.

As the Chinese don't report their pollution, toxic waste and Greenhouse gases, who knows what their contribution is.

The new player in the Greenhouse effect is China.
Booming economy, factories opening all over the place, steel mills galore

AND NO REGULATIONS.

As the Chinese don't report their pollution, toxic waste and Greenhouse gases, who knows what their contribution is.

And you've hit the nail on the head on why the west suddenly thinks it important.

Hi Guys,

The only *real* solution to almost carbon-free power that can sustain cities/countries is nuclear.

In the UK "green" generation such as wind/solar and so on makes up a tiny percentage of the GB gen. capacity.

AG49,

Some good points. In many countries wind/solar gen. is a. too low in capacity to make a dent and b. far too erratic. There is a lot of work going on at present with regards to the definition of "green power" - there is a difference between being almost free of carbon (nuclear) and being renewable (wind etc.).

Their are plans for new nuclear reactors to be built across Britain, so it looks as though the govt. have realised this is going to be the case, too.

There has been some success storing wind/solar power by "storing" it in reservoirs. (this is unclear, they pump large amounts of water, which can then be used to provide steady energy when the 'wind don't blow, and the sun don't shine') That being said this is geographically infeasable in most places, and as has been stated the only solid source for baseline power is Nuclear Power. The problem this poses lies first in the prohibitive cost in building such a facility, second in ass-backwards BabyBoomers who live in perpetual fear of some sort of nuclear holocaust (we X and Y types are generally more reasonable in this regard), and lastly but certainly not leastly is the problem of waste disposal. With the yucca mountain facility (the only long term high grade waste storage facility in ANY stage of construction) being blocked by a certain senator from nevada, this problem is only getting worse. Even if the Yucca site gets built on schedule (2018 last i checked), the 110 odd nuclear power plants in the United States alone should have generated enough waste to fill such a facility by 2014. This waste is currently stored ABOVE GROUND onsite at many plants, as their 'temporary' holding ponds fill up. Granted, vitrification of waste would improve the situation, filtering out much low grade waste, and leaving the nasties in a more stable ( or at least less drippy) state. Before we go on a rampage we need to get a grip on our existing problems, leaving this stuff laying about is a serious risk. Pebble bed reactors, which run on unenriched fuel, can be valuable in future enterprises but have little to no effect on our current situation. I don't want to wax on for thirty pages here, as i might be inclined to do in a more academic (less conversational) setting. But I'll leave it at this, transportation aside, small efforts on the part of consumers (photovoltaic panels, geothermal heat suppliments, greywater utilization, and some wind turbines in those cornfields *i only add this to reserve some power (pun intended) for the masses) combined with a responsible nuclear power industry would easily provide us with plenty of energy for home and industrial usage.

If we could harness a bit of the hot air generated by global warming - were onto a winner.

Pauldo,

Really? That's like saying "if we could stick thousands of solar panels in space we could harness more of the sun's power". It's too expensive, unfeasible and generally retarded.

Besides, there is significant evidence that the ozone layer is regenerating over either the north or south pole.

twoplustwo I think that you misunderstood Paul, as a fellow Liverpudlian I'm sure he meant the hot air being spoken, ie it was a lighthearted joke.

Brian

In that case that's really rather funny :)

I'm sure

And correct!:)

I'm not sure that a hole in the ozone layer is a bad thing, and I certainly don't think that it is somethign that man has created. In fact, a hole in the ozone layer will allow carbons and "greenhouse gasses" building up in the atmosphere to leave. This is a good thing; this is Mother Nature balancing herself out. Our problem is that we think we know what the problem is when in reality we don't know squat about the Earth's natural cycles from our tiny blink of existance on it. The fact of the matter is that volcanoes pump out more carbons etc. into the atmosphere daily than man could even dream of producing. Now, I'm not saying that it's OK to pullute the planet, everybody wants a clean environment, but we are putting too much emphasis in one area and pumping too much money into dead end projects like ethanol fuel. Making fuel to run our cars from our food source is a horrible idea and I would personally like to smack the person who came up with it. We do need to find an alternative fuel, but corn isn't it.

"I certainly don't think that it is somethign that man has created"

Really? Did you not study geography when you were like 13?

so you believe everything your teachers taught you in school?

that's foolish, and sheepish

so you believe everything your teachers taught you in school?

that's foolish, and sheepish

Wow.

How can you deny such comprehensive and irrefutable evidence. I'm pro-nuclear and think this is retarded.

I reiterate, we have not been on this planet nearly long enough to know what its natural cycle may be. Just because a hole opens in the ozone while we're on it doesn't mean that we caused it. It is my opinion and belief that this happened because too much carbon was building in the atmosphere and the atmosphere needed a release valve.

The holes supposed to be healing itself isn't it?

The holes supposed to be healing itself isn't it?

That is my understanding

Can't remember where I read it, but didn't some scientists analyse various layers of the earth and come up with a theory that the earth has been through several 'warming' stages before?

Can't remember where I read it, but didn't some scientists analyse various layers of the earth and come up with a theory that the earth has been through several 'warming' stages before?

You are correct. In fact, I think each warming stage was suddenly ended by an ice age or mini ice age as was the case in the 1300s.

that is the case, however what we see is evidence that this warming cycle (actually the Carbon cycle, which appears to be corralated and to precede the temperature business) is happening much faster, and to a far greater extreme. So the worry is did we break it (i.e. things just keep getting hotter), or will we experience an even steeper drop off than in the past, when the natural systems try to 'remedy' this.

The integral z-squared dz
From one to the cube root of three
Times the cosine
Of three pi over nine
Equals log of the cube root of e

I'll remember that!

The integral z-squared dz
From one to the cube root of three
Times the cosine
Of three pi over nine
Equals log of the cube root of e

I'll remember that!

Theres a favourite hobby of mine
For a new value of Pi to assign
I'd fix it at three
Its easier you see
Than 3.14159

More accessable that one.

Theres a favourite hobby of mine
For a new value of Pi to assign
I'd fix it at three
Its easier you see
Than 3.14159

i do like that, nothing quite compares to the mathmatikal limerick

But then there would be a problem you see
Changing Pi to 3
There would be no association
No affiliation
Between diameter and its boundary

I remember pi being 22/7 - and i get a calculator to work it out ..

wait for the government to enact common sense policies such was wave / wind turbines etc..

Not to get off topic - but what planet are you living on when you expect "common sense policies" from :D ANY :D government -North/South American, UK, European, Outer Mongolian?

"Common sense policies from government" is almost as oxymoronic a phrase as Microsoft Help!

But then there would be a problem you see
Changing Pi to 3
There would be no association
No affiliation
Between diameter and its boundary

Why teach our children annoying things like the value of Pi. Just change the diameter of the circle to whatever the radius is X 3 squared.
Of course we'll be getting an entire generation of engineers who build bridges and buildings that fall down. :D

Old Cree proverb:
Only when the last plant has died
And the last river has been poisoned
And the last fish has been caught
Will we realize
We cannot eat money:mad:

to be honest i think a large part of the solution is trying to reduce peoples reliance on piped energy on wholly or partially cutting them off from the grid network

renewables are a much more viable solution in the context of microgeneration

where is the sense in producing electricity from wind power or sunlight or whatever then piping it to someone down a wire (with all the associated transmission losses) and letting them use that same energy to heat water when they could have had a solar thermal hot water system in their roof or just burned wood?

the thing is the vast majority of our energy consumption (i believe its over 60%) is used in heating, either water or the air space in our homes and all that heating could simply be achieved by burning biomass (and the heat actually kept in by decent insulation)

next comes lighting but we should all be using compact flourecent lamps

what is left over, all the electrically powered gadgest of the modern age, tv's computers, dvd players these are actually all fairly low power devices in comparsison to our boilers and heaters, if we just burned wood to keep ourselves warm we could probably generate enough electricity ourselves to keep these low power (and non essential) toys ticking over

people have mentioned solar panels and like i hinted above they really are a bit of a waste of time, much better use the suns energy to directly heat water than as a horrendously inefficient means of generating electricity and then using that electricity to heat water or air.

I dont know how many get National Geographic, but in the november 07 issue there is a good article about how hunters are turning into the new conservationists. pretty good article

kinda off topic though

or just burned wood?


I thought wood was carbon based?:confused:

to be honest i think a large part of the solution is trying to reduce peoples reliance on piped energy on wholly or partially cutting them off from the grid network

renewables are a much more viable solution in the context of microgeneration

where is the sense in producing electricity from wind power or sunlight or whatever then piping it to someone down a wire (with all the associated transmission losses) and letting them use that same energy to heat water when they could have had a solar thermal hot water system in their roof or just burned wood?

the thing is the vast majority of our energy consumption (i believe its over 60%) is used in heating, either water or the air space in our homes and all that heating could simply be achieved by burning biomass (and the heat actually kept in by decent insulation)

next comes lighting but we should all be using compact flourecent lamps

what is left over, all the electrically powered gadgest of the modern age, tv's computers, dvd players these are actually all fairly low power devices in comparsison to our boilers and heaters, if we just burned wood to keep ourselves warm we could probably generate enough electricity ourselves to keep these low power (and non essential) toys ticking over

people have mentioned solar panels and like i hinted above they really are a bit of a waste of time, much better use the suns energy to directly heat water than as a horrendously inefficient means of generating electricity and then using that electricity to heat water or air.

good post - I think you will find the people who use photo-solar aren't using them for heating - cos (as you point out) its not a viable option - they use them to charge batteries to run the toys/lighting etc

heating should be treated seperately- whether it be a heat pump - solar (not photo) or wood pellets etc

in essesne the power requirements need to be sectioned out

so
Heating
Lighting
Essenstails (Fridge)
luxuries (Kettle)
and you apply the technology to each

with heating you first strart with insulation get that up to scratch and half the job is done thne look at what works for your location - if your a townie a wood burner may not be an option - but if your a country folk - then its worth looking at .

Lighting - solar (photo) charging batteries - if you have the spare room for it again if you live in a flat - not really an option - however if you got lots of roof-age certainly worth looking at .

etc

I thought wood was carbon based?:confused:

if you grow your own wood - and burn it - it is considered to be cardon neutral as the tree takes out the cardon while growing and then its release when burnt - (weird I know, not my rules) wood pellets burners burn slower so less wood is required and also a lot of it is recycled -( but still carbon emmissions)

I didn't make the rules -

to be honest i think a large part of the solution is trying to reduce peoples reliance on piped energy on wholly or partially cutting them off from the grid network

renewables are a much more viable solution in the context of microgeneration

where is the sense in producing electricity from wind power or sunlight or whatever then piping it to someone down a wire (with all the associated transmission losses) and letting them use that same energy to heat water when they could have had a solar thermal hot water system in their roof or just burned wood?

the thing is the vast majority of our energy consumption (i believe its over 60%) is used in heating, either water or the air space in our homes and all that heating could simply be achieved by burning biomass (and the heat actually kept in by decent insulation)

next comes lighting but we should all be using compact flourecent lamps

what is left over, all the electrically powered gadgest of the modern age, tv's computers, dvd players these are actually all fairly low power devices in comparsison to our boilers and heaters, if we just burned wood to keep ourselves warm we could probably generate enough electricity ourselves to keep these low power (and non essential) toys ticking over

people have mentioned solar panels and like i hinted above they really are a bit of a waste of time, much better use the suns energy to directly heat water than as a horrendously inefficient means of generating electricity and then using that electricity to heat water or air.

We are semi cut off from the grid. Solar and wind is way better then burning wood. Surplus energy is usually sold to the grid on windy days and purchased back at night when there is no wind. Or you can store the energy as heat by heating water which in turn can be used to offset heating costs in the winter.
Proper insulation of the dwelling just makes $en$e financially even if you are waiting for someone else to take enviornmental responsibility.
Sadly current affordable compact fluorescent lights will not light up well below zero but leds sure do.
TVs and computers and most modern entertainment conveniences are a huge waste of electricity because the first thing the mains gets to in any of there devices is a transformer to bring the power down to between 36 and 5 volts. This point I brought up at a conference for alternative power and the person who was displaying his power supply equipment was rather embarrassed along with other speakers.
We dont do green because we are enviornmental we save our hard earned money by not relying on other people to supply and make profit on what we can provide to ourselves.
:D

Wood may well five out the lowest carbon emissions when burnt, but it still giving them out.
No the only option is to take a leaf out of pre-historic times and go back to pedal power like Fred and Barney:eek:

TVs and computers and most modern entertainment conveniences are a huge waste of electricity because the first thing the mains gets to in any of there devices is a transformer to bring the power down to between 36 and 5 volts
When I was a TV engineer very few TV's had transformers because they were too expensive and nowadays I think the torodial trans wastes little energy in fact transformers are some of the most efficient electrical 'machines, with some large units able to transfer 99.75% of their input power to their output;)

When I was a TV engineer very few TV's had transformers because they were too expensive and nowadays I think the torodial trans wastes little energy in fact transformers are some of the most efficient electrical 'machines, with some large units able to transfer 99.75% of their input power to their output;)

They are rather efficient, however my point was the insanity of people and companies trying to sell GREEN products such as solar or wind power and having the consumer think it is efficient to generate power and save it then use inverters to put it up to 120/240 volt when the component uses a transformer to bring it back down again.:confused:

They are rather efficient, however my point was the insanity of people and companies trying to sell GREEN products such as solar or wind power and having the consumer think it is efficient to generate power and save it then use inverters to put it up to 120/240 volt when the component uses a transformer to bring it back down again.:confused:

way to techinical for me ..
your living it - you have real hands on expereince - i presume you have a bit of land to play with - most of us brits have about a postage stamp in land to play with - so some of your solutions are viable to us - mind you you are an example to us that it can be done.. and solar (phot) does seem to be a solution - if all new build had thsi in it then more would be mad eandmore research would be done getting better effeciney out of them -

i have seem some combination solar roof tiles heating and photo - which looks interesting ..

heating should be treated seperately- whether it be a heat pump - solar (not photo) or wood pellets etc

thats exactly my point - in view of the much greater power requirments and the simplicity of just replacing the heat by burning biomas (which as you quite correctly pointed out is carbon based but carbon neutral as long as its a short cycle plant and not transported umpteen miles in a diesel burning truck)

and as i think you again pointed out you can use heat to store power by heating water or even to generate power by boiling water - i know someone who modified a solar water heating system using parabolic mirrors to focus the suns energy and had the water boiliong in the pipes (and this is in the UK!) they had to run the taps to release the pressure - that could have been providing hot water, space heating AND generating electricity to charge 'leisure batteries'

all the energy ends up as heat one way or another, its the managment of that heat which is key

and yes i agree heat pumps are definitly the way foward - wherever a wood burner is not practical (i'm not sure i agree they are NEVER practical in towns) a heat pump should be used instead