Generally, I feel like i never learn until i actually fall flat on my face. Then i know not to go that route again. Can't be like that with everyone, can it? Or am i just stubborn cos even when the signs clearly state "do not trespass" is when Mslady loves to stroll into the forbidden ground :rolleyes: and i do this subconsciously - like my mental state wants me to take that unnecessary hopeless risk out of curiosity. Aah...I fell flat on my face again recently and i have nothing but regrets. But why do i regret when i saw it coming :confused: Now i know not to do that again. This can't be real. But i did learn though. I failed but i learned. So brings the question in my mind, is failure the only way?

...just pondering

MsLady, there are only two teachers. Experience, which is the ability to recognize your mistakes when you make them again, and Study, which most people can do until they reach a limit and go stark raving mad.

Study involves reading the history of someone else's mistakes. If you don't learn from history, you'll repeat it yourself.

Sometimes when we make a mistake, we blush. Why? Don't know for sure, but Mark Twain said "Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to." But making a mistake is no reason to blush. Making a mistake even with benefit of experience (see above),... now THAT'S reason to blush.

These days, I don't blush any more. No.... don't laugh. Don't scoff. It's true! You see, I'm on daily doses of Niacin, which causes me to appear flushed. I promise, my face is red only because of the medicine... really!

MsLady, if this is any consolation, I had to put in a week worth of trial and error to learn how to effectively manage ODBC sources. Rest assured, I have read whitepapers, looked up in Google, Usenets and forums to give me the basics. Even so, there were still holes or maybe some points where the information were sketchy, contradictory or just downright not clear at all.

Thus, I had to experiment with several different settings before I could learn anything about why Jet behaves the way it does. During the experiments, I've made several steps backwards when I found that I had ran down a blind alley, and my final solution (well, I wouldn't call it final, but at least I know it works) was a far cry from what I started/envisioned with.

Looking back, the present solution I have was so simple, but I could have never learned about it had I not underwent the lengthy trial and error. But more importantly, in that week, I learned *far* more about Jet than I ever did in last year with Access.

So, failures seem to me a very good thing™.

Don't remember who originally said it, but it works for me:
"Show me someone who has never made a mistake and I will show you someone who has never made anything"

MsLady, there are only two teachers. Experience, which is the ability to recognize your mistakes when you make them again, and Study, which most people can do until they reach a limit and go stark raving mad.

Study involves reading the history of someone else's mistakes. If you don't learn from history, you'll repeat it yourself.

Sometimes when we make a mistake, we blush. Why? Don't know for sure, but Mark Twain said "Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to." But making a mistake is no reason to blush. Making a mistake even with benefit of experience (see above),... now THAT'S reason to blush.

These days, I don't blush any more. No.... don't laugh. Don't scoff. It's true! You see, I'm on daily doses of Niacin, which causes me to appear flushed. I promise, my face is red only because of the medicine... really!

Your post touches me. It sounds like poetry. You know, a while ago i promised myself to add lots of biographies to my library. Like you say, there's always something to learn from other people's history, i know it for sure. But perhaps the lesson just don't stick as much as when you try it and stumble :mad:

Now that you remind me, i'll read more biographies and i'll be sure to hold one or two lessons from there

MsLady, if this is any consolation, I had to put in a week worth of trial and error to learn how to effectively manage ODBC sources. Rest assured, I have read whitepapers, looked up in Google, Usenets and forums to give me the basics. Even so, there were still holes or maybe some points where the information were sketchy, contradictory or just downright not clear at all.

Thus, I had to experiment with several different settings before I could learn anything about why Jet behaves the way it does. During the experiments, I've made several steps backwards when I found that I had ran down a blind alley, and my final solution (well, I wouldn't call it final, but at least I know it works) was a far cry from what I started/envisioned with.

Looking back, the present solution I have was so simple, but I could have never learned about it had I not underwent the lengthy trial and error. But more importantly, in that week, I learned *far* more about Jet than I ever did in last year with Access.

So, failures seem to me a very good thing™.*Sigh of relief. So i guess it's normal afterall?! I find comfort in what you have said and that's all i've ever known. Dive in-suffer-learn! It's just that when someone dives into anything headfirst and then something goes wrong - the trauma is usually almost unbearable :( than the case where one steps in carefully, one careful step/phase at a time. Now isn't this other careful approach seen as cowardice? Is there much learning here? But there's less risk right? Cos surely, one would have the opportunity to back up quickly at the smell of trouble? Perhaps this is a better way to live and learn? Maybe slowly but surely? Any success stories on this other side? Maybe i should give this a try for once. Just maybe.

[And this applies to every aspect of life]

Well, I wouldn't think that one is better than other. In fact, I'd think one who does homework *first* and is not afraid to go ahead and dive in at a whim of curiosity, is the same one who will reach Rome faster than either who persistently stick to manuals or experiment with every possible trial, even ones that are clearly doomed to fail.

...I'd think one who does homework *first* and is not afraid to go ahead and dive in at a whim of curiosity....


RTFM
Most of us don't.
I remember making my first amplifier without reading any documentation, blew up in 2 seconds. It was only the 4th version that stood out for more than one hour. :rolleyes:

Btw what is ISO 9000 LAD ?

RTFM
Most of us don't.

Ooo, I have just the comic for you!

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/rtfm.png

I remember making my first amplifier without reading any documentation, blew up in 2 seconds. It was only the 4th version that stood out for more than one hour. :rolleyes:

Ouch.

While I do agree that documentations always are a good start, I've never seen a documentation as a finish. ;)

Btw what is ISO 9000 LAD ?

<tongue in cheek> A superhero. </tongue in cheek>

Edit: Rereading your question, I realized you were asking me *what* is a ISO 9000... ISO-9000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_9000) is basically a quality management certification. Useless at that.

I know the ISO 9000 series, since I work with that almost every day ( assessments of plants against ISO 9001 or ISO 29001),
I just wondered who the superhero ISO9000Lad may be ? ;)



While I do agree that documentations always are a good start


Why do you still violate the 1st normal form then ? :D

Why do you still violate the 1st normal form then ? :D

Don't you know that Banana is way above normal:D

RTFM
Most of us don't.
I remember making my first amplifier without reading any documentation, blew up in 2 seconds. It was only the 4th version that stood out for more than one hour. :rolleyes:

Btw what is ISO 9000 LAD ?

You know when you have really reached the end of the line when:

You READ THE INSTRUCTIONS!!!!

For me, I read and, God forbid, they are actually accurate and they work, I have learnt nothing (other than click next, next, next)

Dive in, muck it up, search and manage to FIX IT - NOW I understand how it works

Of course, there are some people / countries / governments that never learn by their mistakes.

Col

While I do agree that documentations always are a good start, I've never seen a documentation as a finish. ;)
There used to be a saying in the computer industry

"The job's not finished till the paperwork's done" with a cartoon of a person on the toilet.:D

Of course, there are some people ... that never learn by their mistakes.

Col

Amen to that - ;)

A little bit of motivational thinking may be helpful in MsLady's situation (IMHO). Instead of thinking "If only I did this or that", think "next time I will do it this way."

Instead of focusing on the past, it becomes a focus on the future.

I heard that from a preacher and it has helped me.

The only real failure in life is the failure to try. -Author Unknown

Keep trying. :)

The only real failure in life is the failure to try. -Author Unknown

Keep trying. :)Author found for New Quote

"The only real failure in life is the failure to try. " - Craig Dolphin

Hey, BTW, what's with the signature?

Don't remember who originally said it, but it works for me:
"Show me someone who has never made a mistake and I will show you someone who has never made anything"

favourite saying of mine also but with the addition

"He who makes the same mistake twice is a fool"

Hmmmmm depends on definition of "same" and "twice"

L

Generally, I feel like i never learn until i actually fall flat on my face. Then i know not to go that route again. Can't be like that with everyone, can it? Or am i just stubborn cos even when the signs clearly state "do not trespass" is when Mslady loves to stroll into the forbidden ground :rolleyes: and i do this subconsciously - like my mental state wants me to take that unnecessary hopeless risk out of curiosity. Aah...I fell flat on my face again recently and i have nothing but regrets. But why do i regret when i saw it coming :confused: Now i know not to do that again. This can't be real. But i did learn though. I failed but i learned. So brings the question in my mind, is failure the only way?
...just pondering

If failure the only way to learn in life I would be a Nobel Laureate:eek:

...and my english would be way better ;)

Hey, BTW, what's with the signature?

Just a bit of fun on my part to blend my occupational interests with my appreciation for many of the speci...er, folks who contribute a great deal to this board. :D

Just a bit of fun on my part to blend my occupational interests with my appreciation for many of the speci...er, folks who contribute a great deal to this board. :DWell, here is a big THANK YOU, on behalf of all the species present. :)

Just a bit of fun on my part to blend my occupational interests with my appreciation for many of the speci...er, folks who contribute a great deal to this board. :D
Thanks for including me!

Another motivational statement...

If at first you don't succeed, ... you're in good company.

When you fall flat on your face, the only REAL tragedy is if you liked your nose before the fall.

I had a teacher once who graded like a wild person with a long, sharp knife. My papers used to bleed they had so much red on them. When our class complained, she said, "Failure builds character. Easy exams don't prove anything. Don't you like a real challenge?" Only one of us had a good response: "You mean you like us so much you want to see us again next year?" Tests got easier after that.

But I digress... failure in the programming industry is a GOOD thing. As long as you are careful to fail BEFORE you take product to market. That's why on any systems I have managed in the past, I will NEVER EVER run version x.0 of anything. Except, of course, that for a long time, Microsoft never released minor versions of programs. Access was 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, etc. for a long time. Only lately have they started showing the detailed build number and lower-level version sequences.

Hey, everybody fails now and then. You want failure in a BIG way? I'll give you some REALLY big failures...

New Coke

Windows ME

The Edsel (automobile, for you young whippersnappers)

The movie Heaven's Gate

Fashion designer "Pop Top" Terp. (He made dresses out of ring-pull can tops. Looked like chain mail.)

And historically, ...

Phlogiston theory

Aether as a medium for light transmission

Ben Franklin's lesser-known contribution to the study of electrical phenomena. (No, not the kite experiment. Ben is ALSO the guy who established the convention that it is the POSITIVE charges that define the direction of current flow. Today we know it is the negative charges, but hey, he had a 50-50 shot at being right...)

The guy who invented the game of Russian Roulette - and practised it by himself.

Wrong-way Corrigan, the famous cross-country pilot. He flew across the country, one coast to the other, in a non-stop flight. First man to do so. Problem is, he wanted to cross the ocean, not the continent. Got his directions wrong by 180 degrees and never noticed that he wasn't over water. Sheesh!

William One-Shot Beaudine, the Hollywood director who NEVER shot a retake on a scene no matter how cheesy it was. But he was always on budget and on time. Never mind that the imperfections in the scenes showed up a bit more often... Like the time he had someone walking with a lit candle down a long hallway. Well, the "standard" way to show this using normally lit sets is to have a spotlight shining from off-camera to track the position of the candle. Never mind that when One-Shot shot it, the position of the spot and the candle rarely had anything to do with one another.

Then there was the director/producer who put together that cheese-fest from the late 50's, Robot Monster. Problem is, he didn't check schedules, and the only guy in Hollywood who had a working "robot suit" was booked solid throughout the entire shoot for this epic piece of fluff. So with a little creativity, he hired the guy who had the gorilla suit and had him wear a diving helmet with an antenna glued to it. Mistakes? No, sir, not a one.

So don't worry about failure. You're in good company! LOTS of people make mistakes in a very public way.

A further thought on a different topic. Your question was, Is failure the only way to learn in life?

The REAL talent is the person who fails - but only just bad enough to dust self off and get going again.

The person who fails so badly as to be unable to make ANY more mistakes - because s/he died - now THAT's someone you don't want to emulate.

Look up "The Darwin Awards" if you want to see some REAL failures. To win a Darwin Award, you have to screw up so badly that you take yourself out of the gene pool. To my knowledge, only one man still lives who won a Darwin Award and survived it. But he took himself out of the gene pool by shooting off the source of his genes.

So when your programs crash around you, and things don't work as they should, just put it in perspective. You are still alive enough to cuss, bang your fist on the desk, wad up a sheet of paper and toss it in the trash, and leave the room mumbling.

Think of it this way. Here we are, seemingly intelligent people trying to communicate with an INANIMATE OBJECT! Repeatedly! What did you EXPECT to have happen? By the way, I'm right next to you, communicating away.

Well if failure is something we should learn from how did Americans vote for Bush, the writing was on the wall right from the start

here we go again

here we go again

I thought it was a perfectly valid question to pose, the notion was that we learnt from our mistakes, unless I'm missing something very obvious that's not the case, and looks like it never will be. Is there something wrong with pointing the obvious flaw in the posted logic?:confused:

favourite saying of mine also but with the addition

"He who makes the same mistake twice is a fool"

Hmmmmm depends on definition of "same" and "twice"

L

It also depends on the definition of fool:

"Fool me once shame on you; fool me twice shame on me."

He who makes the same mistake only twice is still ahead of Rich - who consistently makes the same mistakes by tossing in anti-American comments thinking we wouldn't see them and would forgive him. I would turn the other cheek but I've heard that Rich is a cheeky bugger. And who wants to be buggered by Rich? (Don't everyone hold up all your hands at once, now...)

He who makes the same mistake only twice is still ahead of Rich - who consistently makes the same mistakes by tossing in anti-American comments thinking we wouldn't see them and would forgive him. I would turn the other cheek but I've heard that Rich is a cheeky bugger. And who wants to be buggered by Rich? (Don't everyone hold up all your hands at once, now...)

Here we go again, "anti American" as for buggering you'll have to take your turn in the queue, but then since it's not my forte, you're going to be somewhat disapointed I'm afraid.:eek:
Is "anti-Americanism" part of the American school curriculum :confused:

A further thought on a different topic. Your question was, Is failure the only way to learn in life?

The REAL talent is the person who fails - but only just bad enough to dust self off and get going again.

The person who fails so badly as to be unable to make ANY more mistakes - because s/he died - now THAT's someone you don't want to emulate.

Look up "The Darwin Awards" if you want to see some REAL failures. To win a Darwin Award, you have to screw up so badly that you take yourself out of the gene pool. To my knowledge, only one man still lives who won a Darwin Award and survived it. But he took himself out of the gene pool by shooting off the source of his genes.

So when your programs crash around you, and things don't work as they should, just put it in perspective. You are still alive enough to cuss, bang your fist on the desk, wad up a sheet of paper and toss it in the trash, and leave the room mumbling.

Think of it this way. Here we are, seemingly intelligent people trying to communicate with an INANIMATE OBJECT! Repeatedly! What did you EXPECT to have happen? By the way, I'm right next to you, communicating away.
...so comforting. Thanks Doc_man... I am gaining alot from you and everyone in this thread.

MsLady everything becomes oh so simple once you have watched Monty Pythons The Life Of Brian. ;) take the song at the end "Always look on the bright side of life" as a literal incentive for your work... You make a mistake, you should think "bugger I wont do it that way again" or you do something right then think "great I'l remember that way" and write it down or summin. kinda like an educational journal.

I insist you watch that film aswell.. its like a wordly philisophical guide for me! hah

I remember making my first amplifier without reading any documentation, blew up in 2 seconds. It was only the 4th version that stood out for more than one hour. :rolleyes:



My dad always said that any documentation was only someone else's opinion on how something worked :)

The UNIX mantra - RTFM - Read the Friggin' Manuals - is why OpenVMS guys don't always like UNIX. Manuals? We don't need no steenkin' manuals. If it is designed right, it is purely intuitive anyway. So I tend to agree with your dad, EmmaJane. Manuals are what you use when you are out of coffee and too blearly to reason it out.

And of course there are Windows manuals... but they are illegible on a good day. They were written by someone fluent in Sanskrit and translated to English by someone for whom both Sanskrit AND English were not primary or even second languages.

But of course, the ultimate in manuals was back in the heyday of the IBM 360 OS. A complete set of manuals filled (to overflowing) a six-foot high three-foot wide book case with five shelves (and the bottom and top). And you still had more to do. The damned JCL subset was one whole shelf! Just for the job control language. Sheesh, UNIX guys - tell the bimmers to RTFM. They'll hit you with one - and it'll be big enough to HURT.

Doc Man, I think you'll appreciate this gem:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/rtfm.png

;)

Doc Man, I think you'll appreciate this gem:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/rtfm.png

;)

Same pic twice ? :o;)
Guess you just violated the 133 st normal form :D


And of course there are Windows manuals... but they are illegible on a good day. They were written by someone fluent in Sanskrit and translated to English by someone for whom both Sanskrit AND English were not primary or even second languages.


Apart from the help menu, I have never seen any windows manual :D
The last doc I tried to read/understand was Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 in Hungarian.
Still haven't finished it, but Debian is running quite nice on my PC as an alt to Windows, so who cares. ;)

Same pic twice ? :o;)

:confused: I already showed that before?

Oh dear, I'm getting old... :o

Guess you just violated the 133 st normal form :D

If that mean I got to 132st normal form, then I'd think I'm in pretty good shape! :D