Can anyone explain what the current war in Georgia (v Ruskies) has to do with the USA?

The Yanks are now supplying weapons to Georgia. (according to Sky news)

I must have missed the reasoning behind all this.

Col

Can anyone explain what the current war in Georgia (v Ruskies) has to do with the USA?

The Yanks are now supplying weapons to Georgia. (according to Sky news)

I must have missed the reasoning behind all this.

Col

To plan for the next "Afghanistan, Iraq":rolleyes:

I see the headlines are blaming Russia whilst the small print says that Georgis invaded Ossetia. I hope Brown has the gumption to keep out of it.

Brian

I wonder if it is coincidence the Russians started this when a)Putin was out of the country and b)the Olympics were starting.

russian people are misinformed about the terrible war in Georgia. They are made to go as soldiers and fight in the battle against Georgian people. The russian information sites are spreading lies and deteriorating the conflict. Nothing is the price for the lives of innocent people. Peacefull citizens are shot. This kind of cruelty has not happened for past years. Russia ! Why can not you satisfy with the huge lands you have???!! Why do not you stop killing innocent people??? !! Who takes the responsibility for all the blood in these small land.

Other countries are SCARED!! FRIGHTENED!! They are afraid of Russia. But they do not realise that their time will come soon after Georgia. THIS WAR has to be stopped!! The world invader has to be stopped!!!!!!!!!
In these minutes it is killing the peacefull citizens.. Somebody ! please stop the war


The true story goes here.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/09/georgia.ossetia/index.html

russian people are misinformed about the terrible war in Georgia. They are made to go as soldiers and fight in the battle against Georgian people. The russian information sites are spreading lies and deteriorating the conflict. Nothing is the price for the lives of innocent people. Peacefull citizens are shot. This kind of cruelty has not happened for past years. Russia ! Why can not you satisfy with the huge lands you have???!! Why do not you stop killing innocent people??? !! Who takes the responsibility for all the blood in these small land.

Other countries are SCARED!! FRIGHTENED!! They are afraid of Russia. But they do not realise that their time will come soon after Georgia. THIS WAR has to be stopped!! The world invader has to be stopped!!!!!!!!!
In these minutes it is killing the peacefull citizens.. Somebody ! please stop the war


The true story goes here.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/09/georgia.ossetia/index.html

Here's some news for you. The "world invader" is not Russia - but it does end in an "a".

Col

My guess is that the UN will have some strongly worded statements against Russia on this - as long as Russia approves them.

To Rabbie and Justice: Russia didn't started this war.
Here is an hour by hour from Lenta.ru http://www.lenta.ru/articles/2008/08/08/ossetia/
8-8-08
00:06 Georgia had started an artillery bombardment of Tsihinvalli. Georgian news declared that they had started the war and are now taking the capitol of Ossetia
00:42 Commander of Georgian forces Kurashvilli declared this operation as a "restoring constitutional law in the respublic", also asked Russian peace keepers to stay out of it.
1:38 storming of Tsinhvalli is on the way from multiple directions
2:08 Georgia notified the peace keeping forces about the beginning of a millitary operation
2:37 Abkhasia send 1000 volunteers to South Osetia
3:46 Gerogian tanks rolling into the Tsinhvalli which is now encircled
4:30 Russia demands the call of SC of UN
4:48 Reinforcements from North Osetia arrive in Tsinhvalli
6:49 Abhkasia moves its army to the Georgian border
7:12 Georgian AF strickes targets in Osetia
8:56 Geogian forces have struck Russian peacekeepers
9:23 Georgian Media deсlares Tsinhvalli as a taken city
9:44 3 Russian peacekeepers are wounded
10:44 Georgia promisses an amnesty to South Osetian goverment officials
10:09 UN security counsel declined Russian attempt of warning Georgia. Just voiced its concerns...
10:21 Presidents of north and south Osetia denied claims of Tsinhvalli take over.
10:39 Georgia claimes Russian AF stricke on Georgia
10:58 Georgia asks Russia to step in and be a peace keeper.
11:10 Saakashvilli declares a draft...
11:10 Russia confirms its dead soldiers in the conflict.

11:19 Georgian media claimes that it shot down a Russian bomber
11:48 Saakashvilli demands that Russians stop bombing its cities...
11:47 Saakashvilli blames Russia for the full millitary aggression
11:54 Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs completelly denied any shot down bomber
12:10 Russian channel 1 reports heavy fighting in Tsihnvalli
12:18 US demand a stop in the fighting
12:36 Russian peace keepers confirm attacks on their positions
12:37 parlament of North Osetia beggs for Russina involvment
12:55 South osetian hospital is destroyed.
13:12 NATO General secretary demands a stop in the fighting
14:10 there is only remaining South Osetian resistance point in Tshinvalli. Georgian tanks are in the city
14:30 Mayor of Tbilisi declares 2 hour moratorium in the fire zone.
14:31 Russain peace keepers call BS
12:36 Putin in conversation with Bush, said that he is afraid that he will not be able to stop all Russian volunteers from going to help...
15:00 Georia temporary stops the artlillery fire
15:29 Georgian forces are leaving Tsinhvalli, as Russian tanks gets closer
15:33 Georgian media claims that Russian AF is stricking Georgian positions in Osetia
15:52 Osetians claim to have destroyed at least 4 Georgian tanks
16:00 Georgia threatens Russia with war.

16:11 Russian Defence ministry: Russia is sending reinforcements for the peace keepers.
16:20 Georgia claims that Russian AF struck bases in Georgia with American instructors being there.
16:40 Fighting in Tsinhvalli is over. City is leveled
16:50 Russina counsel in NATO send notes of protest in conncetion with new war.
16:58 Georgian Ministry of Foreign affairs begs the world to sav his country from Russia. To which Lavrov replied that earlier that morning Georgia specifically asked Russia to interveene as aa peace keeper.
17:01 Volunteers helped push Georgian forces out of Tshinvalli
17:20 Osetians give Georgins in Tsinhvalli an ultimatum to leave the city
17:26 Russian Defence Ministry: Georgians are executing south osetinas and are not allowing them to get their wounded out.
17:34 Death toll in Tsinhvalli in the thousands
17:53 Russia claimes that Georgia is ethnically cleansing the taken terriroty. Warns of humanitarian catastrophy
17:55 One Russian bomber struck the landing strip on Georgian AF base
18:06 Russian tanks open fire on Georgian forces in Tsinhvalli
18:22 Osetian president: there nuhdreds dead. $ Georgian tanks are destroyed
18:58 Saakashvilli is pulling Geaorgian forces out of Iraq
19:07 Georgia claimes 3 dead in Russian attack on its AF base.
19:23 Russia stops any domestic flights to and from Georgia
19:32 Russian AF claimes to have destroyed several Georgian planes.
19:37 Russian 58th army defeated Georgian positions which were earlier attacking the Russian positions.
and so on...

I would like to know what the US would do if their peace keepers and citizens were attaked and wounded by some other country? would they stay calm and nice saying, 'Come on, guys, keep on doing this!'

IF ONLY YOU WERE ABLE TO SEE THOSE REFUGEES TELLING ABOUT INCREDIBLE ATROCITIES COMMITED BY "FREE AND CIVILIZED' GEORGIANS AGAINST "SEPARATISTS" (MAINLY CHILDREN, WOMEN AND ELDER PEOPLE) AND RELATIVES OF THOSE WHO ARE DEAD OR STILL THERE AND CAN'T GET OUT BECAUSE "BRAVE" GEORIAN SOLDIERS" SHOOT ALL THE VEHICLES INCLUDING AMBULANCES!

If anybody helps them they are the same criminals as the nazist Saakhashvili!

Funny isn't it. The Russians used the same "povocation" to invade other former Soviet republics. It appears that Moscow is bound and determined to re-unite the old Russian empire one way or another.
The Georgian Army consists of approx. 100,000 troops, about 100 tanks, about 200 pieces of artillery and almost no air force. They'd be kind of dumb to start shooting at the Russians don't you think?
Georgia has applied for membership in NATO to prevent just this sort of intervention. The Russians had to move fast to prevent this.

To Rabbie and Justice: Russia didn't started this war.
Here is an hour by hour from Lenta.ru http://www.lenta.ru/articles/2008/08/08/ossetia/
I am sure this site is completely unbiased and neutral about this.:rolleyes:

If the Russians are only trying to remove the Georgian invaders from Ossetia, why are they bombing Tbliisi?

Perhaps the cold war mentality lingers, but I have a difficult time seeing thousands of Russian troops supported by hundreds of tanks and half the Russian Air Force as Peacekeepers or Liberators.

Ok. You don't believe officials. I can understand you. But what about those refugees who escaped from that region TO RUSSIA (NOT GEORGIA) and their relatives many of whom stay in Russia now? They tell with tears in their eyes about Georgian atrocities like running over women and children with tanks, casting granades into basements with children, women and old ones when steping back. You want to say that several thousands people are lying as well.

And nobody is bombing Tbilisi, where by the way, there are lots of Russians having rest or doing business there.

If Russia wanted to turn Georgia back why didn't it helped the opposition in Georgia to throw down Saakhashvili's regime much earlier. It would be much easier. We knew that he is pro-US and even gets salary and military support from some American funds (Soros, e.g.). This fact isn't even concealed. How do you think can such a president and government be absolutely free in his decisions?

But we decided to invade small Georgia now, after 2000 its soldiers were trained in Iraq, official American-Georgian drills were organised, and after Georgia was increasing its military basis.

Besides, there were at least 2 American citizens (not of Slavic or Caucasian origin) in South Osetia. One of them is a reporter from Alaska, he is wounded and is in the "what-left-of-the-hospital", i.e. in the basement in Tshinvali together with other Osetians.
they don't even have enough water and medicine to help patients, saying nothing of food. The other could escape from there and told about what happened there (in English, by the way). Or you don't believe your fellow-countrymen as well?

Here you can find fotos and video from the region. www.vesti.ru/videos?vid=142545 If you don't believe just think why in almost all the world mass media only one point of view is reflected? If you are intrested a little go there and watch those videorolics. Unfortunately they are in Russian but I think you can distinquish Russian Cyrilic alphabet on the ambulances and on the remnamts of the city buildings. these aren't Georgian cities at all that are destroyed. It's awful and incredible what has happened there.

What hurts the fact that politicians try not only to kill people treacherously at night after Saakhashvili's promise not to wage war during Olympics but to quarrel friendly nations - Georgians, Osetianss and Russians. I hope they won't succeed because we have very strong ties like mixed marriages, frienship and relative connections. many Georgians come to Russia to work here and Russians go there to relatives, for business or holiday. And this is proved by yesterday's friendly embrace and kiss of two girls - Russian and Georgian - at the Olympics.

To statsman: Are you in Tbilisi now?

People say that just American aircrafts are flying over their heads in Tbilisi. (from telephone call)

I see the headlines are blaming Russia whilst the small print says that Georgis invaded Ossetia. I hope Brown has the gumption to keep out of it.

BrianSouth Ossetia is actually a part of Georgia. There has been a rebellion there backed by the Russians and the Georgians have attempted to restore order and the whole thing has escalated.

It seems the Russians want to restore their control over those parts which became independent because of the oil(surprise surprise)

To statsman: Are you in Tbilisi now?

People say that just American aircrafts are flying over their heads in Tbilisi. (from telephone call)It seems that Russia is sending troops into Georgia not just South Ossetia. See this link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7554507.stm)

Also it seems that Russia has rejected a cease fire. Hardly the action of a peace keeper.

.

It seems the Russians want to restore their control over those parts which became independent because of the oil(surprise surprise)

Whilst this is undoubtedly true, the fact is that the Ossetians are no more Georgian than the Georgians Russian, so why can one have its Independence and not the other? This is a common problem Matebeleland from Zimbabwe, The Sourthern States from the North plus many other spring to mind. The world is complex and it would appear that the Georgians have given the Russians the excuse they needed.

Brian

Whilst this is undoubtedly true, the fact is that the Ossetians are no more Georgian than the Georgians Russian, so why can one have its Independence and not the other? This is a common problem Matebeleland from Zimbabwe, The Sourthern States from the North plus many other spring to mind. The world is complex and it would appear that the Georgians have given the Russians the excuse they needed.

Brian I quite agree that this is a very complex situation. I am sure there are faults on both sides. I am sure the timing of this flare-up is not coincidence and is related to the Olympic games and the recent surge in oil prices.

It seems to be clear now that Russia is extending its military operations from the disputed areas into Georgia proper. Let us hope that a peaceful solution is found soon.

What about Bush warning the Russians about the use of excessive force:rolleyes:

What about Bush warning the Russians about the use of excessive force:rolleyes:Pots and Kettles come to mind

Completely agree, the situation is extremely difficult. and it's clear that both sides don't want to yield, at least now. And I can't see as well why people can't live peacefully with their neighbours. Is the identity more important than life? But killing weak, helpless and unarmed is disgusting. Just cowards and crazy lunatics can do this.

I can't judge up to what place Russian troops moved forward into Georgia proper, I'm not there, but neither can you, I think. If some news agencies report about their advancing into Georgia proper, other ones tell about forcing out Georgian troops from Osetian territory. consider it's rather difficult to estimate the situation only on this basis. And almost every night Tskhinvali is bombarded. I wonder by Russians and Osetians?

Rabbie, what kind of rebellion do you mean? Sleeping in beds at 00.06 on the 8th of August?
If they had organized this rebellion, couldn't they sent all their non-soldiers into Russia or organize their defence at least? Or didn't they realize that Georgia would send troops and try to put it down? Why didn't they prepar food, medicines, water and so on? Are they kamikadzes? Or they don't care a pin for their children and women?


Oh, I was unpleasantly disconcerted at the US representative's behaviour at the UN session today. it was shown in the news. When Russian representative was talking about the situation in South Osetia telling facts and giving reasons, he didn't even listen. (What for? Everything is solved, isn't it?):mad: And then once again blamed Russia for tensing the situation in the region. Churkin had to tell him to put a microphone in his ear, before he should explain everything once again. Is this the way to resolve the conflict? Can you name this behaviour responsible and characterising a serious adult? I can't.
About Russian role in these conflicts: In 1992, Georgia was forced to accept a ceasefire to avoid a large scale confrontation with Russia. The government of Georgia and South Ossetian separatists reached an agreement to avoid the use of force against one another, and Georgia pledged not to impose sanctions against South Ossetia. However, the Georgian government still retains control over substantial portions of South Ossetia, including the town of Akhalgori.[22] A peacekeeping force of Ossetians, Russians and Georgians was established. On November 6, 1992, the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) set up a Mission in Georgia to monitor the peacekeeping operation. From then, until mid-2004 South Ossetia was generally peaceful. (from wikipedia)

I don't want to say that Russia is white and fluffy, that it doesn't have its interests in the region (who wants to have a hostile neighbour?), but facts speak: from 1992 till 2004 there was no war, no conflict between all the sides ( including Abkhazia). Shevarnadze, the previous Georgian president, wasn't as well our "beloved fellow", but both countries needed each other (for economical, cultural, religious, etc. reasons) and everything was more or less acceptable. We are not interested in one more war, and destabilization in the region, when there are lots of problems in our country. But when somebody commits crime, there must be done something.

I was in Abkhazia myself in 2002 with my family. People lived their lives as anywhere else, tried to restore the country after the war (though there were many traces of it left). It's very beautiful there, there are many places to see, including famous (especially in former Soviet Union) resorts, monastery, underground caves (impressive), ancient towns...). I didn't see any criminals or terrorists in camouflages but just peaceful people. Abkhazian resorts are becoming more and more popular. That would be a pity if the war starts once again. :(

тьфу-тьфу-тьфу

Like ALL of the wars that are being fought at this time - or any time for that matter - the innocent people stuck in the middle of the fighting who are getting their ass bombed really do not give a f*ck who is bombing them they just want it to STOP :mad:

Thank God that's finally stopped (at least concerning South Osetia)! Hope this will never start again.

Thank God that's finally stopped (at least concerning South Osetia)! Hope this will never start again.Seemed to be continuing in Gori tho long after the cease fire was announced. There seem to be faults on both sides but two wrongs never make a right.

Agree with "Two wrongs never make a right"

But if you see that somebody who is stronger tries to offend someone who is weaker and almost unarmed TREACHEROUSLY using weapons, shouldn't you help?

But if you see that somebody who is stronger tries to offend someone who is weaker and almost unarmed TREACHEROUSLY using weapons, shouldn't you help?

Not sure who you want to help, it can be read both ways.

Col

Agree with "Two wrongs never make a right"

But if you see that somebody who is stronger tries to offend someone who is weaker and almost unarmed TREACHEROUSLY using weapons, shouldn't you help?Are you suggesting other countries should have intervened to help the breakaway side in Chechnya?Or perhaps you are saying that there should be intervention to drive the russians out of Georgia?

Are you suggesting other countries should have intervened to help the breakaway side in Chechnya?Or perhaps you are saying that there should be intervention to drive the russians out of Georgia?

No need to "drive" them out Rabbie.
I would be happy if they were putted out. :D

Latest news is that the Russians are ignoring the ceasefire and that they are driving steadily into non-disputed areas of Georgia.

No need to "drive" them out Rabbie.
I would be happy if they were putted out. :D
I was being kind and thought they should be provided with motorised transport to speed their departure instead of being assailed with a golf club:D

What about Bush warning the Russians about the use of excessive force:rolleyes:

Rich, there is currently a full blown shooting war going on there. Warnings about excessive force would be like handing out speeding tickets at an F1 race.

The Russians have now restored "peace" in Ossetia but are continuing to march on Georgia. IMO they are planning to annex the whole place.

First Chechnya now Georgia. I think you will find in the next few months that Ukraine and Belorus will form some sort of alliance to keep from being swallowed up as well. Ukraine has threatened to close the Black Sea port they lease to the Russian Navy and are demanding prior notice of any ship movements.

Rich, there is currently a full blown shooting war going on there. Warnings about excessive force would be like handing out speeding tickets at an F1 race.

Unlike Iraq and Afghanistan eh:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Unlike Iraq and Afghanistan eh:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Lets discuss one war at a time. :rolleyes:

Obviously, the thought of Russia letting loose their war machine is almost as terrifying to westerners as the US (et al) in Iraq/Afghanistan is to those folk. I guess it's good for us to get a taste of our own medicine every now and then.

Apart from the oil, what has it to do with the Yanks? Why is Condo Rice there?

Why can't the Yanks just sod off and leave the world alone? They only make things worse.

Col

You're forgetting the American philosophy, have army ready and willing to fight anybody anywhere, distance and reason no obstacle

I doubt that the average American wants war, anywhere. I used to think that America was all about keeping the Commies at bay, which was a good thing. Keeping religious nuts at bay is also a good thing. If the commies and the religious nuts are sitting on fortunes (oil or uranium) then we can't have them running riot around the planet they need to be kept in their place. If America is the only place with the balls to do that, then good for them! I'll fly their flag!

The Brits are just too scared to get involved in anything. First sign of trouble you guys lift your skirts and hurry off home to your wet and dreary land and leave the rest of the world to sort it all out.

I doubt that the average American wants war, anywhere. I used to think that America was all about keeping the Commies at bay, which was a good thing. Keeping religious nuts at bay is also a good thing. If the commies and the religious nuts are sitting on fortunes (oil or uranium) then we can't have them running riot around the planet they need to be kept in their place. If America is the only place with the balls to do that, then good for them! I'll fly their flag!

The Brits are just too scared to get involved in anything. First sign of trouble you guys lift your skirts and hurry off home to your wet and dreary land and leave the rest of the world to sort it all out.

Typical American comment.

Col

The Brits are just too scared to get involved in anything. First sign of trouble you guys lift your skirts and hurry off home to your wet and dreary land and leave the rest of the world to sort it all out.So that's why British soliers are being killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. I am so glad you clarified that for us

If politicians want to fight then just throw them into a room naked without any weapons and let them fight it out, only the single survivor gets to live. People have to stop killing people just because someone in so called authority says it is the thing to do. The so called free democratic part of the world is as bad as the areas under dictatorships as far as the person who is just living their life is concerned, all they want is the agressors to stop killing innocent people for whatever cause... does not matter who is wrong or right on whatever ideals when you are just trying to make a living and some dumbass plants mines all over your fields to blow your butt up while you try to plow or plant... or you are making supper for your family and some idiot misses a target and blows your house into powder... or the school collapses after a missle strike and your kids never come home again... how is that just and fair? :mad:

People have to stop killing people just because someone in so called authority says it is the thing to do.

Novel idea - how quaint.

Col

The Brits are just too scared to get involved in anything. First sign of trouble you guys lift your skirts and hurry off home to your wet and dreary land and leave the rest of the world to sort it all out.

I have to disagree with this. They're actually the only european nation who will reliably do what they're told :eek:

David Cameron, the leader of our government opposition has come up with a really good plan. And boy, will it hurt - the Ruskies must be aghast at his plan.

David Cameron has called on the Government to hit back at Russia over the invasion of Georgia by barring the wealthy Moscow elite from enjoying their luxury shopping weekends in London.

Col

The Brits are just too scared to get involved in anything. First sign of trouble you guys lift your skirts and hurry off home to your wet and dreary land and leave the rest of the world to sort it all out.

That's why we took on the most evil regime of the 20th century while the Yanks were sat at home watching tv:rolleyes:
Oh and do remind us how many wars of the 20th century the Yanks won without us holding their hand:confused:

I doubt that the average American wants war, anywhere.

Of course they do - they love it. They like to wallow in the self pity when their troops get killed. Why do you think the Yanks go round armed to the teeth? They love the opportunity to kill without fear of a murder rap.

Anyway, it helps keep down the population and benefit payments.

Col

Topic hijack alert.

Topic hijack alert.

Topic truth denial alert:rolleyes:

Topic hijack alert.

I'm glad you warned us you were going to do that. What subject are you going to hijack it into?

We're waiting in suspenders. . . . . . . . . .

Col

Topic truth denial alert:rolleyes:

What truth am I denying?
Simply a warning to the other forum users that you and Colin were about to turn this into another American bashing exercise.

They are free to participate if they wish.
They are also free to ignore you and carry on with an illuminating discussion of the Georgian situation if they wish.

Items such as cigarettes carry a warning. So should your forum "landmines".

What truth am I denying?
Simply a warning to the other forum users that you and Colin were about to turn this into another American bashing exercise.

.

Unlike America turning the current situation into a Russian bashing exercise eh:rolleyes:

Are you suggesting other countries should have intervened to help the breakaway side in Chechnya?Or perhaps you are saying that there should be intervention to drive the russians out of Georgia?

There was help from other countries, of course, mainly not official, but at it was. From Arabic countries, for example, and other Islamic states. But there were some other European and American and even Russian organizations as well. Usually they were founded by Islamists, there relatives or sympathizers.
otherwise the war wasn't so long.

You know, there wasn't any need for the international community to introduce their troops into Russia. Eerything was fine especially at the beginning of the 1990s when the country was drowning in is internal problems, like poverty,corruption, banditism, wild and illegal privatisation , .... And that fact that Russia got stuck in the war (losing a lot of people lives and money) and, on the one hand, was becoming weaker and weaker (and could soon fall down), on the other, there was a possibility to earn money selling armaments, that was serving somebody's purpose well. Guess whose. So, there was no necessity to send troops and lose people and money. Russians could do everything perfectly themselves. due to Corruption those terrorists got money and help from Russian officials and other "thirsty for money" people as well.

well, of course there was a point of Russian nuclear weapnons that shouldn't have been underestimated. Oh, and there was one more ground for blaming Russia. And poor (in ecomnomical sense) country had to borrow large sums of money and therefore didn't play any significant role on the inerntional stage. Everything was prfect, so why try and make war?


But there are some differences between Chechnya and South Osetia and Abkhasia. Under perestroika in Chechnya political clubs on a multiethnic basis and democratic national clubs, including the Chechen "Bart" Committee, were formed. Radical nationalists appeared in 1991. The power grabs covered up by nationalist or democratic rhetoric are the hidden motives of conflicts in Chechnya.
The other motive is access to the distribution of state funds and incomes from the arms and oil trade. Since 1991 social insurance, health care services and public education have been destroyed in Chechnya. The aged population does not receive their pensions because social funds provided by the federal government for Chechnya have been stolen or spent on terrorism and the military. The federal government, maintaining the militarization of Chechnya for years, actually nurtured the regime of General Dudaev. All conflicts, in particular in the distribution of funds, were solved by the removal of his opponents. The borders were opened to drugs and arms from other countries. Chechnya turned into the favorite place for Russian and foreign criminals. Many people lived in poverty.
Those problems were real. By 1994 the federal government began to understand that the problems should be solved. Was a military intervention the only way to do it? Of course not. It was the worst solution; it raised the status of General Dudaev and practically killed the extant opposition in Chechnya. The reasons for the war in Chechnya have more to do with power grabs, incompetent policy and corruption, than they do with ethnic problems and the need "to obtain national self-determination" or "to protect democracy and constitutional order".
In fact from 1991 till 1994 so-called free Ichkeria was a country in a country. They had their organs of government (not effective, I dare say), army, printed their own money ... Chechnya is a "country" with a clan (teips) system and some medieval features. At that time there was a massive fled of non-Chechenian population from Chechnya, because of its descrimination there, though they lived there all their lives. Among them there were a lot of first-rate specialists (engineers, workers, teachers, doctors, and so on..) who could help the country to develope. But it seemed they were not necessary. It couldn't be said about criminals, terrorists, drugdealers, kidnappers, and other bastards. So instead of trying to put everything in order, Chechenian authorities just were fighting for power and destabilising the situation in Chechnya and in the region. Not without external help.

After the first war a treaty was signed.
During eight hours of subsequent talks, General Lebed and Maskhadov (president of Ichkeria) drafted and signed the Khasav-Yurt Accord on August 31, 1996. It included: technical aspects of demilitarization, the withdrawal of both sides' forces from Grozny, the creation of joint headquarters to preclude looting in the city, the withdrawal of all federal forces from Chechnya by December 31, 1996, and a stipulation that any agreement on the relations between the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria and the Russian federal government need not be signed until late 2001. The Khasav-Yurt Accord paved the way for the signing of two further agreements between Russia and Chechnya. In mid-November 1996, Yeltsin and Maskhadov signed an agreement on economic relations and reparations to Chechens who had been "affected" by the 1994–96 war.

In February 1997, Russia approved an amnesty for Russian soldiers and Chechen rebels alike who committed illegal acts in connection with the war in Chechnya between December 9, 1994, and September 1, 1996.[8]

Six months after the Khasav-Yurt Accord, on May 12, 1997, Chechen-elected president Aslan Maskhadov traveled to Moscow where he and Yeltsin signed a formal treaty "on peace and the principles of Russian-Chechen relations" that Maskhadov predicted would demolish "any basis to create ill-feelings between Moscow and Grozny."[38]

Maskhadov's optimism, however, proved misplaced. Over the next two years, a few of Maskhadov's former comrades-in-arms, led by field commander Shamil Basayev and Ibn al-Khattab, launched an incursion into Dagestan in the summer of 1999, and soon Russia invaded Chechnya again starting the Second Chechen War. [wikipedia].

But before 1999 there was a number of terrorist acts all over the European terrritory of Russia (in Buinaksk, Volgodonsk, Moscow and not only).And what Russia did in Chechnya was not fighting against the Chechens as a nation, it was fighting against terrorism (unlike Georgia). And it was fighting against international terrorism, because there are a lot of representatives of other nationalities, like the Taleban, people from the Middle East, some territories of Russia, the Baltic states, some Russian states, the Ukraine.

After the 2nd Chechen war Russian government once again approved an amnesty for those rebels who didn't participate in terrorist acts and was ready to lay down weapons . A lot of them got an opportunity to return to normal life. Is this the act of genocide? I doubt.

The proof of it lies in the present-day situation in Chechnya which is actively being reconstructed, various sides of life are being developed. it is getting large sums for this from Russian government as dotational region. And Chechens are even in Russian representative team at the Beijing Olympic games and win gold medals for our country together with sports people from other regions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)

If we compare this with the South Osetian situation, it's quite oppositte. Osetians didn't turn their land into a terrorist camp and beneficial place for criminals of the world. On the controrary they tried to create modern, economically developped, historically interesting state. they had even their own university, with many faculties, including lingistic researches. The perfect hobby for terrorists and criminals between skirmishes, don't you think so?!:rolleyes: (it's a joke). they have very rich culture (once again not the feature characteristic of terrorists and bandits as Saakhashvilly says). And by the way on the previous stage they were even ready to have just an autonomic status within Georgia. Obviously it's not the way out that Georgia and US will agree to.

Then in Chechnya there weren't any peacekeepers from other countries at all, and consequently they were not killed at night with the help of heavy arms almost without any opportunity to defend themselves. (By the way, peacekeepers are not considered to fight, but just oversee relations with both the parties to the peace treaty and the UN member-states in general. that's why they don't have any heavy artillery. and don't expect to be attacted by any national army. But Saakhashvilly decided that he has all rights to do this and violate all the treaties signed by the former Georgian government and supported by the UN!) So, even if we put aside that genocide of Osetians, Russia had all rights and even duties to do what it did. (But of course, that would be better if we didn't lose the control over the situation in Georgia from the very beginning and acted as the US acted, that is with the help of various political institutions, support of pro-Russian government, non-governmental funds or usage of patent US invention - Colour revolutions or something of the kind. Unfortunately, our technologies in this sphere are not so developed and successful as the US ones.:( ) At least there wouldn't have been so many victims.

Some new facts: After Osetians got possibility to get out of their shelters they told many "interesting" stories about the Georgian soldiers and other hirelings including Ukrainians, hirelings from Baltic states, Poland, ... like shooting pregnant women, killing children in front of their mothers, burning churches with people who hid there, and cars with wounded and refugees. Outrageous! Some international and Rusian journalists suffered from their actions as well. (not just mere words, there are proofs).


To tell the truth, if Georgia didn't start this war campaign against Osetians, there wasn't any war at all. I'm sure. If you watch news Tbilisi was not bombed, Russian troops are not invading Georgia, Saakhashvilli is safe and sound (but is becoming more and more insane) and is still the President. That was funny to see him chewing his tie before interview on the BBC! But my mother says she is sorry for him, he had bad childhood ad became what he bacame. And perhaps he is now a hostage of his own choice. But he knew what he did and he still has a great US support.

Fox News: 12 Year Old Girl Tells the Truth about Georgia

ru.youtube.com — 12 Year Old Girl Tells the Truth on Fox News about Georgia. Fox News even had to cut them off right in the middle of the account of Georgian aggression even though they had just come from a commercial break 2 minutes prior to that. ***** Fox News and corporate media do not want the truth out.

You should see this if you haven't yet.

Viva "FREE and UNBIASED" mass media in the "DEMOCRATIC" state!:rolleyes:

None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Do you honestly think anyone will read that great long post? I doubt it, as long as America gets the oil, America doesn't give a toss about anything like human rights etc.

Col

But there are some differences between Chechnya and South Osetia and Abkhasia. Yeah. Chechnya was trying to separate from Russia and not from Georgia.

Do you honestly think anyone will read that great long post? I doubt it, as long as America gets the oil, America doesn't give a toss about anything like human rights etc.

Col

'That great long post' was not for somebody who can't or don't want to read it or Bush administration (they know everything prettily well and do their jobs perfectly; unfortunately can't say this of our "workers", they are just learning) . But for those who can and want. I intended to bring another point of view different from yours and give some facts and their interpretations. And I did it. Hope, it was clear.

Yeah. Chechnya was trying to separate from Russia and not from Georgia.

Yeah. And Kosovo was trying to separate from Serbia not not from Georgia.;)
I wonder what international reaction would have been if Belgrad had decided to bomb Prishtina killing Kosovars in thier homes "to restore constitutional order"

or Bush administration (they know everything prettily well and do their jobs perfectly;.

Are you taking the pi**?:confused:

Are you taking the pi**?:confused:

L O L !!!

or Bush administration (they know everything prettily well and do their jobs perfectly;.

I think he misspelt stupidly...

L O L !!!



I think he misspelt stupidly...

Yes and at least Kennedy had the good sense to see the logic behind Russia's uproar at the thought of having western missiles close to their border, History is repeating itself, I wonder why:rolleyes:

Yes and at least Kennedy had the good sense to see the logic behind Russia's uproar at the thought of having western missiles close to their border, History is repeating itself, I wonder why:rolleyes:

The main thing is not to destroy our small globe by mistake while repeating or making history. Or better to destroy and the Universe will be sleeping happily? :(

The main thing is not to destroy our small globe by mistake while repeating or making history. Or better to destroy and the Universe will be sleeping happily? :(
Then someone needs to point that out to gunho Bush:rolleyes:

Then someone needs to point that out to gunho Bush:rolleyes:

Well if McCain gets in it'll be more of the same. Especially now he has that religious freak, gun totin killer as a running mate.

Did you see on the news the picture of her with the caribou she just shot?

If he gets in there's no hope, he's a GWB clone.

Col

Actually McCain's running mate is from Alaska where shooting caribou is often a matter of self defence. :D

Remind me. How did we get from the war in Georgia onto US politics?
Did the Russians actually withdraw?

Actually McCain's running mate is from Alaska where shooting caribou is often a matter of self defence. :D

Along with an arranged marriage to try and ensure one's election



Remind me. How did we get from the war in Georgia onto US politics?
Did the Russians actually withdraw
And here's another unanswered question, is America arming Georgia whilst claiming it is delivering aid?

And here's another unanswered question, is America arming Georgia whilst claiming it is delivering aid?

Quite. See Georgia Train and Equip Program and Sustainment and Stability Operations Program. :(

Along with an arranged marriage to try and ensure one's election


I think you're confusing Alaska with Utah. :)