Oh lord, I hate bullies. We have just had a new manager start in our department and knowing someone from her previous workplace, I found out that she was constantly being warned about bullying in the workplace. It seems she left there before she was forced out!

Now, today she has started. I put on my jacket to go for lunch at 11.58 and she looked at her watch and asked what time do we have lunch? When I said anytime between 12 and 2 she promptly told me it wasn’t 12 o’clock yet and she wouldn’t be tolerating that type of behaviour.

I have now been told that private telephone calls (received, not made) should only be conducted during my breaks and as I had already clocked back in after lunch this was not acceptable!

Some people just let power go to their heads:mad:

Sounds like you have a problem with authority and rules, not bullies.

Just ask for clarification of the rules in writing so that everyone can be on the same page. Anything on the paper which is counter to labour laws, current contracts or collective agreements will need to be rectified, otherwise cope with the changes or change jobs.
If she is a clock watcher then ask her which is the 'official clock' because if you go by your PDA watch or clock for start finish and break times it might not be synched with what is on her personal watch.
A lot of times a new supervisor will lay down the law to reel in ALL of the persons they are supervising and the basically good employees may have to suffer to fix the problems of someone who takes more then full advantage. If some lazy booger or person overstepping the line is going to be the target of dismissal then a supervisor has to first make sure all rules apply to everyone. Otherwise when someone is dismissed they can sue the company for wrongful dismissal if others are getting away with the same complaint or complaints.

Be sure to find out whether or not she has been told to take such a line by her supervisors. It might be that you are experiencing a deliberate attempt by the owners of the company to tighten things up.

Just a bit of advice if you are thinking about making a complaint about it.

Start a list of all of your Supervisor's ego trips.

For example:

Sept. 30/09 - Informed by X that lunch breaks were to be taken exactly on time from 12 noon to 1 PM. This was a result of my leaving for lunch at 11:58.

Sept. 30/09 - Informed by X that private calls were only to be taken during breaks. This was a result of a private incoming call received at 2:12 PM. I have no control over when private calls are received.

You can then follow this up with:

Sept. 30/09 - Informed by X that lunch breaks were to be taken exactly on time from 12 noon to 1 PM. This was a result of my leaving for lunch at 11:58.
Oct. 2/09 X left for lunch at 11:45 and did not return until 1:15

That's what I do with my bully Statsman. His latest is that I have to beg for time off to go to a doctors appointment! He swears he won't refuse, but I must ask if I can go rather than just tell him. I'd say he was an arse, but an arse is useful.

Sounds like you have a problem with authority and rules, not bullies.
No i dont, i havea problem with people laying down the law with no lee way. what happens when she rubs the wrong person the wrong way and then they only ever work to her rules. so if i answer the phone one day from her, well i dont know if anybodys daft enogh to marry her but someone and its past 2pm i can just tell them they have to phone back another time can i. my friend tells me this was one of her things and someone at the last place got a phonecall to say that there mother had had a stroke but she didnt let them get that far just asked if it was a business call and told them to phone back later or call her at home. maybe im worrying too much maybe this is heresay and theres no truth in it but thats my concern.

That's what I do with my bully Statsman. His latest is that I have to beg for time off to go to a doctors appointment! He swears he won't refuse, but I must ask if I can go rather than just tell him. I'd say he was an arse, but an arse is useful.

ha ha ha i like that last bit must remember that

That's what I do with my bully Statsman. His latest is that I have to beg for time off to go to a doctors appointment! He swears he won't refuse, but I must ask if I can go rather than just tell him. I'd say he was an arse, but an arse is useful.

It's quite correct that you have to ask, what if your appointment conflicted with an urgent profgress meeting called by a senior exec, but basically it is just the norm, managers are there to manage staff not be told by them what they, the staff intend to do.

Staff have to obey the rules, but good managers know when and how to bend them.

Fluffy
Of course she could be a bully, take on board what you have heard but reserve judgement for yourself and heed the advice to diary events, but remember that if the boss has permission to "break" the rules for him/herslf they do not have to tell you, tho' I always kept my staff informed.

Brian

I'd second statsman's advice. Document these incidents in a non-confrontational way. And don't do it trying to blackmail her or get her in trouble, just do it to see if she is following her own rules. If she is not, then you really don't have any room to complain. If she is, then after you have complied a list of several incidents where she broke her own rules, if you have the guts/desire, you can ask for a meeting with her in private and calmly ask her why the rules do not seem to apply to her. I wouldn't advise confrontation though unless you have another job waiting for you.

I've worked for strict bosses (even had a boss tell me one time I spent too much time in the bathroom, 4 minutes from when I left my desk to when I sat back down at my desk, for the record), and in my experience they usually do so to try to appear to be an efficient resource manager.

Get a new job and tell her to get stuffed;)

Get a new job and tell her to get stuffed;)

Whatever you do donot do that. If you decide to leave, leave with dignity, you never know when you might require a reference from the company.
On this type of subject ignore any "advice" that emanates from Rich.

Brian

Get a new job and tell her to get stuffed;)

Maybe this "Turkey" LIKES being stuffed?

Whatever you do donot do that. If you decide to leave, leave with dignity, you never know when you might require a reference from the company.
On this type of subject ignore any "advice" that emanates from Rich.

Brian
I've managed for 30yrs after following my own advice Brian, please don't insult my intelligence by suggesting that someone has to bow down and creep to a bully in work! I've walked out on more than one job in my life and managed without a bloody reference from any of them:rolleyes:

Don't misquote me, I never said that you have to bow down and creep.

Brian

Don't misquote me, I never said that you have to bow down and creep.

Brian
You implied by saying that my advice on the subject was all but stupid

You implied by saying that my advice on the subject was all but stupid

I don't think he IMPLIED it. He outright said it! While I fully agree with the essence of your own statement (that your many years of experience would tend to indicate that you should be a potentially good source of advice), In this case I agree with Brian that you are not.

Leaving may or may not be the necessary thing to do, but being rude in the process, can do nothing to assist you along the way. Taking the high road is always a better approach. Whatever the choice, I wish all good luck.

I don't think he IMPLIED it. He outright said it! While I fully agree with the essence of your own statement (that your many years of experience would tend to indicate that you should be a potentially good source of advice), In this case I agree with Brian that you are not.

Leaving may or may not be the necessary thing to do, but being rude in the process, can do nothing to assist you along the way. Taking the high road is always a better approach. Whatever the choice, I wish all good luck.

Stop and think about it for a minute, do you really think that bully is going to write a glowing reference for an employee that she obviously doesn't like, I don't think so, no at least the employee has the smug satisfaction of putting the bully straight, diplomacy does not work in these situations

Leaving may or may not be the necessary thing to do, but being rude in the process, can do nothing to assist you along the way. Taking the high road is always a better approach. Whatever the choice, I wish all good luck.
I agree - never burn bridges - and anyway, if you leave in a huff, you just give the bully the satisfaction of knowing he/she upset you.

I agree - never burn bridges - and anyway, if you leave in a huff, you just give the bully the satisfaction of knowing he/she upset you.
So stay and become a yes ma'm no ma'm three bags full ma'm?

How come in your profile you are 21 but you have managed for 30 years?
I've managed for 30yrs after following my own advice Brian, please don't insult my intelligence by suggesting that someone has to bow down and creep to a bully in work! I've walked out on more than one job in my life and managed without a bloody reference from any of them:rolleyes:

Stop and think about it for a minute, do you really think that bully is going to write a glowing reference for an employee that she obviously doesn't like, I don't think so, no at least the employee has the smug satisfaction of putting the bully straight, diplomacy does not work in these situations

In every company that I have worked for, the HR Department provided neutral employment references and managers were left out of the loop as a safeguard for the company. Of course, the employee can always make a direct request to the manager for a reference as well (which it is safe to assume would not happen in this case).

In every company that I have worked for, the HR Department provided neutral employment references and managers were left out of the loop as a safeguard for the company. Of course, the employee can always make a direct request to the manager for a reference as well (which it is safe to assume would not happen in this case).
Not if the bully has wormed her way into the managers good books;)

How come in your profile you are 21 but you have managed for 30 years?

Maybe some of the info in the profile is out of date?

How come in your profile you are 21 but you have managed for 30 years?
This site's had problems for years

Maybe some of the info in the profile is out of date?
Well yes I've been on the site since, oops, I've forgotten for how many years:eek:

So stay and become a yes ma'm no ma'm three bags full ma'm?No - I was solely talking about the manner in which I think it is best to effect an exit.

Effect change and stay if practical, grin and bear it if you have no choice, otherwise, leave as soon as possible, and be gracious on your way out the door, whether they deserve it or not.
At best you gain nothing by throwing a wobbly when you leave and at worst, you do yourself various disfavours.

The problem with bullies is that they illicit a response of anger and, in my experience, usually try to keep themselves just on the right edge, the very edge, of the rules, like Fluffy's managers time keeping or my doctors appointments. It's rarely about what is said so much as how it's said that gets the blood boiling. I think it is designed to provoke a violent reaction so that they can point the finger back and say "that person is unmanagable". Of course, if you play them at their own game they usually end up having the first reaction ;)

It's quite correct that you have to ask, what if your appointment conflicted with an urgent profgress meeting called by a senior exec, but basically it is just the norm, managers are there to manage staff not be told by them what they, the staff intend to do.
I agree, and for that I would cancel, it wouldn't be the first time I'd cancelled an appointment for the sake of an easy life. The situation is that I have been "under investigation" for over a year now by doctors. It did get that bad at one stage that I had a very bad reaction to their medication and ended up unable to work for four months. Since my return I have juggled appointments to outwith office hours to be as accommodating as possible, to the extent of even having to cancel hospital appointments because there were too many too close together. Now it has got to the stage that the doctors want to just send me into hospital for a battery of tests and I'm telling them it can't take more than a week because that's all the holiday time I have left, having taken most of my holidays to attend doctor/hospital appointments that only took a maximum of an hour out of my day!

The fact of the matter is that people who are liked get to do what they want while those of us who do not grovel get constantly kicked in the teeth, not just on this front but from all angles. There are a few of us in the team who are constantly blocked from progressing in our careers. I have actually been told not to apply for any other job in the department or company because I am needed where I am and I won't get an interview. This was off the record of course.


Staff have to obey the rules, but good managers know when and how to bend them.
Aint that the truth !:eek:

Stop and think about it for a minute, do you really think that bully is going to write a glowing reference for an employee that she obviously doesn't like, I don't think so, no at least the employee has the smug satisfaction of putting the bully straight, diplomacy does not work in these situations

And that's the truth, the best you can ever expect is a generic reference from HR. "Yes" that person worked here "Yes" that was their job title. The number of sick days they had was... By law they are not allowed to lie on that and by law they are not allowed to refuse it. You are also supposed to be able to see a copy on request.

And that's the truth, the best you can ever expect is a generic reference from HR. "Yes" that person worked here "Yes" that was their job title. The number of sick days they had was... By law they are not allowed to lie on that and by law they are not allowed to refuse it. You are also supposed to be able to see a copy on request.
Well yes you end up with a worthless reference and what would be the outcome for future employment if the employee took the case to court?;)

we had a guy here once that on his last day of work gave a little speech where he insulted the majority of the managers & staff :D

It was like watching an episode of the "OFFICE" the room went silent & when he finished no one knew what to do, clap or just stand there, it was a really uncomfortable experience.

A week later he asked for a reference....DOH!!

We once had a manager that was a bit of a bully, for years we sufferered under his rule

One day he called us all in for a quick meeting & told us that he was leaving & thanked us all for our hard work etc. You should have seen our faces, some of us couldn't contain themselves, clapped & jeered.

Monday morning he walked back in & said he changed his mind :eek:

Originally Posted by Brianwarnock
Staff have to obey the rules, but good managers know when and how to bend them.

Just to be clear on this I meant to assist staff with problems, it would appear that Ouma's company are very uncaring about her situation, but I know from my daughters that the conditions in the workplace are a little harsher than my day with individual managers having less discretion

Brian

we had a guy here once that on his last day of work gave a little speech where he insulted the majority of the managers & staff :D

It was like watching an episode of the "OFFICE" the room went silent & when he finished no one knew what to do, clap or just stand there, it was a really uncomfortable experience.

A week later he asked for a reference....DOH!!As someone else said upthread though, you can't really be given a *bad* reference, except in whatever might be implied in the statement "We confirm this person was employed by us from [date] to [date] as [position]"

But I'm just not sure what people hope to achieve by going out in a blaze of glory. - If your boss is completely unreasonable, it most often means the system above him is either sympathetic to him, or too incompetent to notice (and either way therefore probably not receptive to your complaints as you exit).

I suppose it can be psychologically helpful to vent your anger, but apart from that, I don't think it does much good.

Some companies do "exit interviews" in HR.
They ask questions like "What do you think needs to be improved?"

I have no idea what they do with that data, or if enough people complain about a specific person, if any action is taken.

Also, I have heard that many companies have prohibited anyone from giving any information about an employees performance to requestors as the company may be held liable in preventing the former employee to obtain other employment. I think they are even restricted from giving "letters of reference" for the same reason. I understand the company is just trying to protect itself, but it's sad.

Some companies do "exit interviews" in HR.
They ask questions like "What do you think needs to be improved?"I was invited to one when leaving job where one of my significant reasons for leaving was style of management.

My impression of the process was:

They wanted to be seen to be doing the right thing (are exit interviews a stipulation of ISO9000 or something perhaps?)
They might have been interested in any grievances that couple imply their exposure to litigation, but not really grievances that just arose from bad interpersonal relations.


So even here, I was too cautious to blow any whistles, as I really didn't get the vibe that they were looking for constructive criticism.

I thanked them for the experience of working in a varied, challenging and sometimes demanding environment and for the personal development opportunities all that had brought (none of which was a lie), and went my way, smiling.

I suppose it can be psychologically helpful to vent your anger, but apart from that, I don't think it does much good.
But you end up going home "feeling" good instead of bloody miserable every day

Whatever floats your boat, I guess - but for some people (not everyone, granted), giving in to anger would be defeat.

giving in to anger would be defeat.

Weighed up against taking misery from a bully

If you read Kitty's opening remarks, she was warned by a friend that this new manager was a bully when they arrived in her department.

Maybe she should check to see if there are any openings in the department the bully just left?

If you have a good reputation in the company, a transfer can usually be worked out with little difficulty.

If you are in a job and the new supervisor has standards to enforce that you do not agree with then it might be the sign to start to move on to either another department or another firm. No, you can not expect a letter of recommendation from the new supervisor because all they know about you would be what is in your HR file. So you can approach your previous supervisor to ask for a personal letter of reference, or ask your immediate supervisor if they will write the letter. You should always have your resume fresh anyhow, especially the way the economy has been going, you may be surprized by a companies sudden closure or labour cuts which will leave you out of a job with no resume prepared. If you work on short term contracts then you would know how to work that but now this is a reality for many people who thought they had a career job. Always be prepared for a change which may require hunting for new or different employment.

Nothing is worst then working a job you hate - if you have to drag your ass into the workplace day after day the stress you allow to be placed on you will kill you early.

Weighed up against taking misery from a bully

Like I said, it affects different people in different ways.

I've had personal experience of working for people like this, so you shouldn't imagine that my viewpoint is theoretical - it's merely different, because there are different ways of dealing with similar situations, some of which work better for some people than others, and vice versa.

Rich's approach comes across as a bit brash but there is an important truth at play here.

When you work for someone, you are renting out YOUR time for an agreed price and list of duties. There is no reason why you should choose to offer them YOUR TIME in exchange for unacceptable treatment. If you are being bullied, it is a breach of contract on their part, no question.

The Rich approach is fine if you have the utter determination to find an alternative under your own steam. For some this is enough. If confrontation is not your thing then go all out to find an alternative without them knowing.

Everyone is actually free to choose to spend their time in anyway they see fit. It is the bully that tries to convice them otherwise.

I had to share this. after telling you about this new woman and her bully technicks, ive done my best to ignore the hurt she makes me feel with the way she speaks, its never what she says but how she says it.

So the yesterday she was barking at a woman who has worked for the company for more than 20 years. this woman has been having such a bad time with the menopause that her husband left her until shes over it. so she barked at this woman about not sitting properly in her chair and using the fire extinguisher as a door stop. my friend got up and slapped her! the supervisor started to shout at her telling her shed make sure she lost her job for it so my friend hit her again and told her to stuff her job!
The rest of us have told our bosses that she was pushed and thats why she did it. i hope they understand.

Although I agree what you're describing does indeed sound like a bad boss attitude, sometimes clashes like this arise just out of the fact that different people have different personalities and ways of speaking.

I've seen examples in the workplace many times where the employee was trying her best to be co-operative and compliant, and the boss was trying her best to get some genuine, non-imaginary problems dealt with, and yet it was impossible for the two of them to interact without a flare-up.

As a neutral third party, I could see that both of them were misunderstanding each others' mannerisms, habitual tone of voices, etc - even though neither of them were doing anything explicitly wrong - they just didn't 'click' - and as a result, both of them came away with the completely mistaken impression that the other was being deliberately beligerent (and my attempts to mediate were fruitless - the situation was already too far gone).

Not saying that's what happened here, of course.

An event like that is purely a case of workplace harassement and should be brought to the attention of the highest level of management where you work - Chairman of the board or owners - as well as the government body which overseas labour in your jurisdiction (council or provincial or state) and stopped immediately.

With enough witnesses for provocation, the bully will find out that her management style was at fault. But a really good upper-management person, when finding out that others felt there was provocation, should step in and talk to the bully VERY EMPHATICALLY. When a 20-year veteran acts out after a change in management like that, senior management must realize that there is a SERIOUS - and I DO mean serious - morale problem brewing. I've seen it before.

On the other hand, I must be objective about this and point out that the 20-year veteran handled it incorrectly, too. She should have gotten up, walked to the bully's boss, and said, "This person is harassing me. Do something about it or I'll file suit against the company for harassment." Then she should have walked back to her desk and ignored the bully.

Granted, the "slap the slop out of her" approach feels better, but some companies have a "no fighting" rule that makes it very hard to ignore taking a physical approach.

If it had been me, I assure you I would not have hit her. In the face. But I would have hit her in her personnel file. Then, every time she tried to use that tactic again, I would have filed a repeat grievance. It only takes a couple of times for someone to notice.

Then again, working for the US Government as a contractor, I am somewhat protected by the Federal Acquisition Rules, which set forth standards of treatment when the bully is in Civil Service and I am not. In private employment, we had to resort to state labor laws when we had bullies.

I'm not a big fan of assault as a method of dealing with problems, but there was mitigation.

I noticed Kitty made no mention of who propped the door open with the extinguisher. Did the bully even get the right person?

An event like that is purely a case of workplace harassement.It might be difficult to establish that when some of the complaints this boss is making have a kernel of truth to them - using a fire extinguisher to prop open a door, for example, is something that employees just should not be doing.

Yes, it's a very commonly-done thing, and granted the boss may have approached the problem in the worst possible way, perhaps with motives that in truth had nothing to do with the fire extinguisher and everything to do with being a control freak on a personal power trip.

But people's motives and inner thoughts are not available for scrutiny - even if the event was witnessed.
What argument or defence can be offered against the statement "I asked her not to prop the door open with the fire extinguisher, and in response, she slapped my face".

What argument or defence can be offered against the statement "I asked her not to prop the door open with the fire extinguisher, and in response, she slapped my face".

How about:

"She did not ask me, she outright yelled at me, in front of my co-workers, which was unprofessional as well as highly embarassing and humiliating."

(granting, of course, that this should not be considered an excuse for the assault, but rather an argument to illustrate the issue of provocation)

Might work. It mostly hinges on whether those higher up in command can objectively determine who, out of the employees and the new boss, has the legitimate complaint - and whether those people higher up in command are inclined to try to find this out.

If they are any good as managers, they cannot simply assume that the new boss, being the newly-added variable, is the problem (because situations can arise where staff unreasonably dislike, and make trouble for their newly-appointed boss)

They shouldn't assume in the other direction either, of course.

Case studies often lead to the determination that workplace violence had roots in harassment of some sort. Propping open a door with a fire extinguisher is most likely a violation of a fire code, yelling that at someone is not a solution, slapping a supervisor is not an appropriate response.
An effective manager is not a dictator but a team leader - if someone has no skills to lead then they should find an alternative vocation. If people take a proper route and report harassement as it occurs then things would rarely reach a situation where it becomes out of control. As reported harassement an investigation would reveal some of thr root causes and hopefully resolve the entire situation.
Some people are harsh because they have the wrong job, perhaps this boss is a better policy maker then a policy enforcer - but trying to use threats and force to supervise is definately not an effective way to encourage efficiency.

It might be difficult to establish that when some of the complaints this boss is making have a kernel of truth to them - using a fire extinguisher to prop open a door, for example, is something that employees just should not be doing.

Yes, it's a very commonly-done thing, and granted the boss may have approached the problem in the worst possible way, perhaps with motives that in truth had nothing to do with the fire extinguisher and everything to do with being a control freak on a personal power trip.

But people's motives and inner thoughts are not available for scrutiny - even if the event was witnessed.
What argument or defence can be offered against the statement "I asked her not to prop the door open with the fire extinguisher, and in response, she slapped my face".

The face slap could be a defensive knee jerk reaction to feeling threatened or the possibility of being on the receiving end of physical harm.

I'm a fire marshal at work & was trained by the fire brigade at the local fire dept. During our lesson we were told about the common misuse of fire extinguishers being used to keep doors open.

At the end of the lesson we walked out into the hall & spotted that they were using one to keep the passage door open:confused:

I'm a fire marshal at work & was trained by the fire brigade at the local fire dept. During our lesson we were told about the common misuse of fire extinguishers being used to keep doors open.

At the end of the lesson we walked out into the hall & spotted that they were using one to keep the passage door open:confused:

No doubt it was a fire door being propped open. :D

just thought id update you on this. the long term member of staff signed off with stress because so much had happened to her lately and the new member of staff was sent on a people management skills course. it worked, shes so much easer to work with now. the stress lady is still off i think she had what my mother would have called a nervous breakdown.

Did you say good riddance to bad rubbish?;)

Did you say good riddance to bad rubbish?;)

There are times Rich when your avitar looks like the ideal solution. :D