'Yeah, you know, we took two cows up on the porch of the Hilltop General Store. Then we strung wire across the stairs so the cows couldn't get down. Then we fed them Epsom salts. Those cows crapped all night. Yes, he was a fun-lovin' hillbilly boy.
Fun loving?
animal cruelty is all good fun loving stuff in the USA? it must be, especially if you shoot something and it has a long lingering painful death - thats a right laugh:mad:

Still, it'll be time soon to whizz up to Canada and club baby seals to death, and skin them whilst their still alive - thats a right laugh too - hearing them scream out in pain.

God bless the North American continent

Col

Give me a bucket, this is an insult to those who actually fought and died to keep us free

Where is the insult?:confused:

Fun loving?
animal cruelty is all good fun loving stuff in the USA? it must be, especially if you shoot something and it has a long lingering painful death - thats a right laugh:mad:

Still, it'll be time soon to whizz up to Canada and club baby seals to death, and skin them whilst their still alive - thats a right laugh too - hearing them scream out in pain.

God bless the North American continent

Col

Deary me Col... I'll play into your little rant only if you promise to stay focused.. After all, I am juggling my job duties and the defense of an entire continent now :p

Lets see, was it hunting you wanted to take a go at? Or was it the seal thing?...

Fun loving?
animal cruelty is all good fun loving stuff in the USA? it must be, especially if you shoot something and it has a long lingering painful death - thats a right laugh:mad:

Still, it'll be time soon to whizz up to Canada and club baby seals to death, and skin them whilst their still alive - thats a right laugh too - hearing them scream out in pain.

God bless the North American continent

Col

Quite amazing you can turn a single story into an exercise of dehumanizing an entire populace. Not just a single country this time either but an entire continent. You are exceeding yourself.

The point which you seemed to have missed is that each one of those individuals in the 'pose' was NOT solely a model. The story accepts that the kids were going to file off the bus and look at just another monument. It then injects life into this monument. The fact that you have had a reaction against an individual mis-treating some cows in Kentucky means the teller has succeeded. You have acknowledged the fact that these individuals were alive, real human beings. Alive, real human beings who fought against an oppresive force. It doesn't matter if you dislike him for his attitude towards livestock as long as you acknowledge the reality of his existance.

Winston Churchill said : "Never was so much owed by so many to so few"

The fact that this was obviously lifted from Shakespeare's Henry V

"But we in it shall be remembered-
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;"

makes it no less poignant.

Now at the risk of sounding upset - get a grip and stop tramping on other people's feelings.

only if you promise to stay focused..
Not easy:) I've been fairly quiet of late though:D

Your little piece seems to indicate that its great fun to pen a cow up and feed it epsom salts so it has a terrible time with its digestive system - it just struck me as extremely cruel - but obviously a right laugh to the two thugs who obviously need a good smacking.

Then I thought of the horrendous pain an animal must suffer when shot by hunters if its not a clean "kill" - the animal dies in agony - obviously great fun to the hunters or they wouldn't want to shoot innocent things anyway.

Then, I remembered that I read in the paper the other day that the seal clubbing time is here again in Canada - so all the blood thirsty hunters can whizz up there and have fun clubbing baby seals with a baseball bat or a bit of wood with a nail in it. Then they skin them before they're dead.

All good harmless fun - and before you say it, yes in the UK foxes are hunted by dogs and torn apart - thats also barbaric.

Col

You are exceeding yourself.
;)


get a grip and stop tramping on other people's feelings.
yes, I should learn from GWB - he's destroyed a whole nation and now brought it to civil war - now that Dan, is real class.

I am just an amateur compared to that.

Col

Your little piece seems to indicate that its great fun to pen a cow up and feed it epsom salts so it has a terrible time with its digestive system - it just struck me as extremely cruel - but obviously a right laugh to the two thugs who obviously need a good smacking.


The fact that you would rather talk about the detrimental effects of epsom salt to the digestive system of a single cow in Kentucky rather than the death of thousands of human beings... speaks volumes.

Not easy:) I've been fairly quiet of late though:D

Your little piece seems to indicate that its great fun to pen a cow up and feed it epsom salts so it has a terrible time with its digestive system - it just struck me as extremely cruel - but obviously a right laugh to the two thugs who obviously need a good smacking.

Then I thought of the horrendous pain an animal must suffer when shot by hunters if its not a clean "kill" - the animal dies in agony - obviously great fun to the hunters or they wouldn't want to shoot innocent things anyway.

Then, I remembered that I read in the paper the other day that the seal clubbing time is here again in Canada - so all the blood thirsty hunters can whizz up there and have fun clubbing baby seals with a baseball bat or a bit of wood with a nail in it. Then they skin them before they're dead.

All good harmless fun - and before you say it, yes in the UK foxes are hunted by dogs and torn apart - thats also barbaric.

Col

So all these hate rants are just a convenient means for you to relieve the pressures of some other, hopefully significant, issue(s) in your life?

(I say 'hopefully significant' in light of the fact that you continue to mortgage you credibility with them...)

The fact that you would rather talk about the detrimental effects of epsom salt to the digestive system of a single cow in Kentucky rather than the death of thousands of human beings... speaks volumes.
I can't stop the deaths of thousands of people, sadly.

I can support those that despise animal cruelty

So all these hate rants are just a convenient means for you to relieve the pressures of some other, hopefully significant, issue(s) in your life?

So you approve of animal cruelty then Ken?

Col

;)

Being proud of your dehumanizing efforts confirms your malice.


yes, I should learn from GWB - he's destroyed a whole nation and now brought it to civil war - now that Dan, is real class.

I am just an amateur compared to that.

Col

Comparing your amateurism to another's 'class' does not excuse your behaviour. By the way do you know what a strawman argument is? I seem to remember explaining the concept to you a while back - however you still seem to think it a valid method of reasoning.

Also I would advise you look up the term "VERISIMILITUDE". This is the literary tactic that the story invokes and to which you have succumbed.

You still need to get a grip.

So you approve of animal cruelty then Ken?

Col

In order to answer that with any substance, I would need you to put a tight little definition around 'animal cruelty'...

Otherwise we could go more generic and flippant like a Rich type response and I could say some thing like:

I do think it was cruel when you had to wait an entire 15 minutes to chuck down a Mickie D burger and enjoy that worderful cow meat you paid someone else to kill... Can't they find a faster bullet to kill 'em with so that I don't have to wait so long!?!...

:) :p :p :D

I can't stop the deaths of thousands of people, sadly.


You could however have acknowledged either the fact that it happened or the context of other forum members sensitivity to the issue rather than using it as a tool to dehumanize an entire populace. Could you not?

Being proud of your dehumanizing efforts confirms your malice.

Malice? how can a little ;) that acknowledges your compliment mean malice:confused:

As well as the US continent, I also included the UK - so I'm branching out into a European sector.;) :D

Col

Not easy:) I've been fairly quiet of late though:D

Your little piece seems to indicate that its great fun to pen a cow up and feed it epsom salts so it has a terrible time with its digestive system - it just struck me as extremely cruel - but obviously a right laugh to the two thugs who obviously need a good smacking.

...Col

Come on... The cows were no worse for the wear and it may have even done 'em good to get cleaned out inside - And they may have even smiled a tad their own selves when they realized what was going on....:p

Malice? how can a little ;) that acknowledges your compliment mean malice:confused:

It wasn't meant as a compliment. Where did you perceive the complimentary tone in my post?

It wasn't meant as a compliment. Where did you perceive the complimentary tone in my post?

Maybe the tone of the post warped a little because it suffered jet lag as it went all the way over the pond... stranger things have happened :eek: :D

Maybe the tone of the post warped a little because it suffered jet lag as it went all the way over the pond... stranger things have happened :eek: :D

I'm surprised the British servers didn't block a post from such a barbaric continent:rolleyes:

EDIT: This is an ironic comical statement. It seeks to satirize the intended object by adopting their same attitude. ie. That the British public as a whole believe that the North American continent as a whole are barbaric and thus would potentially refuse literal content to be read by their populace. Obviously this is an absurd scenario and thus exposes the absurd attitude of attributing an entire continent of people with a single derogatory characteristic.

It wasn't meant as a compliment. Where did you perceive the complimentary tone in my post?
You're exceeding yourself

seemed to me complimentary

I'm surprised the British servers didn't block a post from such a barbaric continent

then you would be isolated, at least we try to indicate the rights and wrongs

Come on... The cows were no worse for the wear . . . .

Thats like saying the cat got over having a firework stuck up his a*se - he got over it

Col

Not within the context of portraying their international greatness, anyway I don't think cameras were available in Wellingtons day.

No but he had artists whom he "posed" for thus allowing paintings for personal, historical and nationalistic purposes. You know that, but you can't stop trying to show superiority over everyone by putting other people down. This childish sarcastic statement has now shown me that you are incapable of honest debate and dialog! You are like a radio commentator whose sole purpose is to create anger and strife for the ratings not for dialogs that pursue and debate issues on their merit, but only to get people yelling at each other. :mad:

seemed to me complimentary

Let me explain. Exceed doesn't mean improve it means to go beyond the limits of. Thus by expressing such an attitude you have exceeded your previous bad behaviour. You have gone beyond the limits of bad behaviour that I thought you were capable of. Clear?

How you can interpret it as a compliment within its obvious context is something I don't understand.


then you would be isolated, at least we try to indicate the rights and wrongs


I posted an edit to my comment in the probability that you would not understand its ironic content. I'm glad to see my time wasn't wasted.

I'm surprised the British servers didn't block a post from such a barbaric continent:rolleyes:

EDIT: Obviously this is an absurd scenario and thus exposes the absurd attitude of attributing an entire continent of people with a single derogatory characteristic.
Its not absurd - North Korea has blocked all US sites

so you, like Ken, approve of animal cruelty in both the US and Canada

Col

No I'm saying that it's innapropriate within such a solem context.
I see your point but disagree. It may be crass to pose for a photo at the end of a battle, but it depends on how you look at it. Was it vapid propoganda intended to score cheap political points that ultimately disrespects those who gave their lives - or was it a sincere attempt to capture the moment and boost morale? Maybe a bit of both? Who knows? But I don't think it is nearly as bad as you seem to think.

And this part is sickeningly sycophantic and nothing more than party political propaganda
I agree.

However, none of this has to do with your original qualifier as the photo being one of the most famous in American history rather than history in general. Unless you're suggesting that any innappropriate photo should be labeled as "American". :confused:

Colin,

You have a point to a degree but could you perhaps not exagerrate the cruelty and suffering some laxatives will inflict on a cow?

Thats like saying the cat got over having a firework stuck up his a*se - he got over it
Col

I am kinda seeing that as over the edge... Not so much the cow thing. Wonder if the cow you ate in the McD burger got over it?

...so you, like Ken, approve of animal cruelty in both the US and Canada

Col

And where did this brain mush come from?

Its not absurd - North Korea has blocked all US sites

You don't think that North Korea's stance on this is absurd?:confused:


so you, like Ken, approve of animal cruelty in both the US and Canada


Which flawed method of reasoning did you you use to reach this conclusion?

You don't think that North Korea's stance on this is absurd?:confused:



Which flawed method of reasoning did you you use to reach this conclusion?

It's getting close to home time and he's taking a few parting brain dead shots at us before he signs out - :D

You don't think that North Korea's stance on this is absurd?:confused:
by saying absurd - I assumed you meant it was impossible



Which flawed method of reasoning did you you use to reach this conclusion?
Neither Ken nor yourself have actually said you disgree with animal cruelty - so one can only assume you agree with it.

Col

It's getting close to home time .. . . . .
Yes thank god - its been a long week.

Col

by saying absurd - I assumed you meant it was impossible

from http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=absurd

"Ridiculously incongruous or unreasonable"

Now you know what absurd means.


Neither Ken nor yourself have actually said you disgree with animal cruelty - so one can only assume you agree with it.


Argument from silence is a logical fallacy. Have I not told you about logical fallacies before? Read this...

http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/Argument_from_Silence

EDIT: What makes you think we want to talk about animal cruelty? The original topic was a war memorial.
How we got to the accusation that me and Ken support animal cruelty from the topic of a War memorial illustrates your belligerent attitude that whatever you say is relevant and needs to be addressed.

...Neither Ken nor yourself have actually said you disgree with animal cruelty - so one can only assume you agree with it.

Col

That's because you fail to define it. Leaving a stray cat out in the rain - Get over it. Doing the firework/cat thing, you crossed the line (I can't believe you did that Col:p ).

Neither Ken nor yourself have actually said you disgree with animal cruelty - so one can only assume you agree with it.

Col

I asked for a method of flawed reasoning and you duly gave it.

Well I think it's time to change the name of the thread, don't you Ken? You wouldn't want to trick people now would you? :rolleyes:

Well I think it's time to change the name of the thread, don't you Ken? You wouldn't want to trick people now would you? :rolleyes:

Beating up a bitter old uk'r is kind'a fun - Isn't fun a positive thingie?

Beating up a bitter old uk'r is kind'a fun - Isn't fun a positive thingie?

Indeed I'm wondering why I've been away for so long :D

Indeed I'm wondering why I've been away for so long :D

And all you have to do is cut & paste a mushy gung-ho blurb and you can get 'em going in bash us up frenzie :eek: :p :p

Edit - Not as much fun as the cow poop thing but with much less to clean up :) :)

And all you have to do is cut & paste a mushy gung-ho blurb and you can get 'em going in bash us up frenzie :eek: :p :p

You could have dug the hole 20ft wide and put up a neon sign and you'd still see them in there next morning. :D

Take note you two that some of us have made the decision to ignore your attempts to annoy us and are playing dumb :D :p

Take note you two that some of us have made the decision to ignore your attempts to annoy us and are playing dumb :D :p

I don't have enough room on my wall for more than 2 trophies :p

I don't have enough room on my wall for more than 2 trophies :p

You're assuming that you wouldn't end up on my wall? :p

You're assuming that you wouldn't end up on my wall? :p

:D :D I'm assuming you'd be more of a catch :p

:D :D I'm assuming you'd be more of a catch :p

Your maybe be right but I think Col would put up a better fight :D

Your maybe be right but I think Col would put up a better fight :D

It's just not as sporting when they become that predictable :rolleyes: :p

It's just not as sporting when they become that predictable :rolleyes: :p

I don't know - watching them fall in over and over again seems to have some timeless appeal.

I don't know - watching them fall in over and over again seems to have some timeless appeal.

Yeah.... Kinda like a classic....It's almost like slapstick comedy

Your maybe be right but I think Col would put up a better fight :D

I heard the female of the British species is more dominant :eek:

Yeah.... Kinda like a classic....It's almost like slapstick comedy

Kinda like a fart joke...:p

Kinda like a fart joke...:p

I knew we could make some progress in this thread if we just held in there until Col's home time... :D

(I know it's hard to believe but I'm not going to do a fart / Col thingie...:o )

(I know it's hard to believe but I'm not going to do a fart / Col thingie...:o )

Boo! :mad:

I'm not going to do a fart

Really!! there are somethings we don't need to know!

Boo! :mad:

ok....

Speaking of farts, where's Rich? Out getting a snoot full for his second wind of the day...

ok....

Speaking of farts, where's Rich? Out getting a snoot full for his second wind of the day...

Hurraaaah!! :D

No but he had artists whom he "posed" for thus allowing paintings for personal, historical and nationalistic purposes. You know that, but you can't stop trying to show superiority over everyone by putting other people down. This childish sarcastic statement has now shown me that you are incapable of honest debate and dialog! You are like a radio commentator whose sole purpose is to create anger and strife for the ratings not for dialogs that pursue and debate issues on their merit, but only to get people yelling at each other. :mad:

Well what a well thought out and intelligent response, I see you've been taking lessons from Kenny:rolleyes:
The fact that he had artists doesn't detract from the fact that you guys need a staged picture of an American flag flying over a foreign land to remember those who fell in battle.
The only reason most of you know anything about IwoJima is down to frigging Hollywood, if that's not an insult to those who truly fought for freedom then I feel very sorry for you lot because this statue is nothing more than State propaganda to permeate the myth that America is the champion of freedom.
The article even went on further insulting those who truly sacrificed their lives in the cause of freedom by bringing in some mythical stories related to Iwo Jima.
What about the Sullivans, what about those who fell at Normandy, what about those who stood alone against overwhelming odds at Bastogne, what about those countless thousands who sacrificed their lives in the USAF over Europe, the fact must be that without Hollywood most Americans haven't the faintest idea about the true events of WW11, holy shit there isn't even a mention of WW1.
If you ,Kenny and all those others can't see that the article and even the statue in question is an insult to those who lost their lives in the true fight for freedom then there is no hope and one can freely come to the the conclusion that as a nation you're brainwashed and know nothing about the true events of history other than that fed by the state.
How do you feel about the picture of the Ruskies raising the sickle and hammer on the Reichstag state managed propaganda, or justified spoils of war ?

and are playing dumb :D :p

But most of the Yanks posting here aren't playing at it ;)

I do think it was cruel when you had to wait an entire 15 minutes to chuck down a Mickie D burger and enjoy that worderful cow meat you paid someone else to kill... Can't they find a faster bullet to kill 'em with so that I don't have to wait so long!?!...

:) :p :p :D
Mickie D burgers don't contain meat, they're made from regurgitated cardboard.
Christ, don't you Yanks know anything. :rolleyes:

the fact must be that without Hollywood most Americans haven't the faintest idea about the true events of WW11, [...]
Holy crap! There have been eleven World Wars???? :eek: We really are lacking in our education system in this country! :rolleyes:

We really are lacking in our education system in this country! :rolleyes:

Obviously

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=WW11&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

If you ,Kenny and all those others can't see that the article and even the statue in question is an insult to those who lost their lives in the true fight for freedom then there is no hope and one can freely come to the the conclusion that as a nation you're brainwashed and know nothing about the true events of history other than that fed by the state.

You actually had me interested until you said this. Why do you always have to group vast numbers of individuals into one derogatory category?

My initial thoughts is that it makes you feel better. Care to explain?

By the way, people will listen more if you don't give them ultimatums. ie. Agree with my point or face being classed as "brainwashed" and 100% ignorant of your own country's history. Here is the logical fallacy you have committed

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/poiswell.html

You actually had me interested until you said this. Why do you always have to group vast numbers of individuals into one derogatory category?



You included yourself in the list when I didn't name you, care to explain why ?

Perhaps you could then explain why the American state needs to constantly remind you of your greatness, does it think you're all stupid ? :confused:

[QUOTE=Rich]You included yourself in the list when I didn't name you, care to explain why ?[\QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Rich]If you ,Kenny and all those others can't see that the article and even the statue in question is an insult to those who lost their lives in the true fight for freedom then there is no hope and one can freely come to the the conclusion that as a nation you're brainwashed and know nothing about the true events of history other than that fed by the state.[\QUOTE]

Rich, you really need to keep track of what you write. You say above "as a nation". I'm thinking that would include all Americans, unless you are talking about a different nation.:cool:

And I'm sorry, but I have to admit, Rich, that, as a nation, we are all brainwashed. And we only know the events of our own history as they have been told to us by those who would have us read it a certain way. The way where Americans come out on top, or at least not on the bottom.

I am not commenting at all on the picture or statue of Iwo Jima, because I know nothing about it. But I do know that as a nation, we are sheep. Damned if I know what to do about it, but there it is.

Lisa

Rich, you really need to keep track of what you write. You say above "as a nation". I'm thinking that would include all Americans, unless you are talking about a different nation.:cool:

Lisa


But if it's based on the majority then one can surely say "as a nation", we have to suffer as a nation because of what our stupid leader did in Iraq, it doesn't mean for one minute that we all supported him, in fact very few of us did.

You included yourself in the list when I didn't name you, care to explain why ?

Hey brain-dead, does this ring a bell: "as a nation"

You included yourself in the list when I didn't name you, care to explain why ?

You are the author of that list Rich. That's the point. It's a list without substance fabricated by yourself. If I'm on that list then you wrote my name down on it.


Perhaps you could then explain why the American state needs to constantly remind you of your greatness, does it think you're all stupid ? :confused:

As with Col you avoid the answering the questions that challenge your position and replace them with strawmen of your own. You answered none of the questions I posted.

To re-iterate: I was interested in your opinion until you "poisoned the well". Most people will converse with you if you don't threaten them with a derogatory label if they dare to disagree with you.

Mickie D burgers don't contain meat, they're made from regurgitated cardboard.
Christ, don't you Yanks know anything. :rolleyes:

According to Ally, the UK version has other suspect ingredients, which may I add, Col seems to favor, if he's willing to stand in line for 15 minutes to get one...:eek:

You are the author of that list Rich. That's the point. It's a list without substance fabricated by yourself. If I'm on that list then you wrote my name down on it.



As with Col you avoid the answering the questions that challenge your position and replace them with strawmen of your own. You answered none of the questions I posted.

To re-iterate: I was interested in your opinion until you "poisoned the well". Most people will converse with you if you don't threaten them with a derogatory label if they dare to disagree with you.


The sad fact is you keep missing the point that the world sees America as a brainwashed nation, you attempt to dismiss the statement by singling out yourself as rebuttal of that, on that basis it's no more scientific than my statement.
Read my response to Imnop
And you refuse to answer my question, how odd

Hey brain-dead, does this ring a bell: "as a nation"

Hey brainwashed, keep posting your governmental propaganda for the masses, hell it's got you hoodwinked

The sad fact is you keep missing the point that the world sees America as a brainwashed nation, you attempt to dismiss the statement by singling out yourself as rebuttal of that, on that basis it's no more scientific than my statement.
Read my response to Imnop
And you refuse to answer my question, how odd

The sad fact is you have elected yourself a self appointed committee of one to speak on behalf of the world when you can't even win over the favor of a handfull of Americans...

According to Ally, the UK version has other suspect ingredients, which may I add, Col seems to favor, if he's willing to stand in line for 15 minutes to get one...:eek:

Only so he can feed the ducks in Regents park :cool: :p

The sad fact is you have elected yourself a self appointed committee of one to speak on behalf of the world when you can't even win over the favor of a handfull of Americans...
That's because unlike you I'm educated and in any case anyone who dares to criticise any aspect of America or its way of life is immediately accused of hatred and anti Americanism
:rolleyes:

Hey brainwashed, keep posting your governmental propaganda for the masses, hell it's got you hoodwinked

I posted a simple little ditti about a monument in an obscure and insignificant forum and now I'm posting your governmental propaganda for the masses... :eek:

You're a riot Ricki-pooh :p Just because you cherish the thought of a 6 digit post count does qualify this as a means of mass communication :p :p

The sad fact is you keep missing the point that the world sees America as a brainwashed nation, you attempt to dismiss the statement by singling out yourself as rebuttal of that, on that basis it's no more scientific than my statement.

I haven't missed the point and I have never tried to dismiss the point. For the third time of saying: Your point of view was interesting to me.


Read my response to Imnop

I have done. You have succeeded in defining your use of the term 'nation' albeit belatedly.


And you refuse to answer my question, how odd

You may agree with my answer to your question. I'm still forming an opinion on it. The problem is, is that you have answered none of my questions. Also you still hold reign over the discussion by the fact that if I disagree with your argument then I immediately default to the list of "brainwashed" individuals that you have created. Why should I engage in a discussion under such a pretext? Remove this pretext and I'll gladly answer the question.

That's because unlike you I'm educated ...

This is beginning to be so easy it's really not much of a challenge any more and I've lost interest. Have a good weekend Rich :)

I posted a simple little ditti about a monument in an obscure and insignificant forum and now I'm posting your governmental propaganda for the masses... :eek:



And you and all the other Americans posting here keep missing the point that you're reducing the memory of those brave Americans who fought around the world to nothing more than a cheap publicity shot, like I said the sad fact is that none of you see it.
Answer me Kenny, why does your government have to keep telling you how great you all are?

That's because unlike you I'm educated and in any case anyone who dares to criticise any aspect of America or its way of life is immediately accused of hatred and anti Americanism
:rolleyes:

...and anyone who dares to disagree with your view of the "nation" of America's level of historical knowledge gets branded "brainwashed". You don't live up to the standards you expect of others.

This is beginning to be so easy it's really not much of a challenge any more and I've lost interest. Have a good weekend Rich :)

Just keep that picture of the Stars and Stripes raised over Iwo Jima in your mind, otherwise you might forget those who didn't make it back from Normandy :rolleyes:

Ok... So one more for the road - Rich, the monument is a symbolic gesture of appreciation not an instrument of propaganda. Exactly, I'm guessing, like most every nation in the world has. If you don't get it, sorry.

Edit- But I guess you're free to twist it into that and sulk in your on little spiteful and bitter world if you want to...

...and anyone who dares to disagree with your view of the "nation" of America's level of historical knowledge gets branded "brainwashed". You don't live up to the standards you expect of others.
So we have to reduce the thread to discussion on an individual basis then do we?
You've already displayed some knowledge of the events of WW11 elswhere in the thread and on that basis we can't discuss this topic because you're not prepared to speak on a collective level for your nation, is there therefore any point?

Does Great Britain not have monuments or war memorials?

Ok... So one more for the road - Rich, the monument is a symbolic gesture of appreciation not an instrument of propaganda. Exactly, I'm guessing, like most every nation in the world has. If you don't get it, sorry.

Edit- But I guess you're free to twist it into that and sulk in your on little spiteful and bitter world if you want to...

No No Kenny, you won't find a memorial in the UK to those who fell in defence of our freedom displaying an image of British or Commonwealth troops flying the Union Jack over conquered territory, that's not why we went to war, of course you can draw your own conclusions as to why you need to show the Stars and Stripes flying on foreign soil in order to remember your vets.

Careful Danny, the typos have started. That usually indicates a two bottle Friday night love fest with keyboard for pooh bear. And be advised that an 'Educated' response will now require you to use '11' as a means of referring to World War 'Two'.

Does Great Britain not have monuments or war memorials?
Of course, but they don't rely on a publicity shot for a backround

...backround

Case closed (hope someone has the car keys :o )

Careful Danny, the typos have started. That usually indicates a two bottle Friday night love fest with keyboard for pooh bear. And be advised that an 'Educated' response will now require you to use '11' as a means of referring to World War 'Two'.
I've already corrected Kraj concerning WW11, do you want me to repeat the post search on Google for your benefit too? :rolleyes:

So we have to reduce the thread to discussion on an individual basis then do we?
You've already displayed some knowledge of the events of WW11 elswhere in the thread and on that basis we can't discuss this topic because you're not prepared to speak on a collective level for your nation, is there therefore any point?

What are you talking about? My sole point is simple.

You have "poisoned the well". You have invited no American to reasonably discuss with you because any American who disagrees with your point of view is "brainwashed". Your argument may be valid but it is not valid because all differing points of view come from a "brainwashed" mind. It is valid because of sound argument. You close the door to criticism before the argument begins. This is not sound argument. Do you accept this or not?

Case closed (hope someone has the car keys :o )
Backround foreground, what's the difference, who's pictured holding up the flag on the memorial, is it John Wayne ? :rolleyes:

I've already corrected Kraj concerning WW11, do you want me to repeat the post search on Google for your benefit too? :rolleyes:

Nice to know we have an advisor that graduated from Google U :D

What are you talking about? My sole point is simple.

You have "poisoned the well". You have invited no American to reasonably discuss with you because any American who disagrees with your point of view is "brainwashed". Your argument may be valid but it is not valid because all differing points of view come from a "brainwashed" mind. It is valid because of sound argument. You close the door to criticism before the argument begins. This is not sound argument. Do you accept this or not?

How can you have valid criticism of the fact that your war memorial is based on a publicity shot ?:confused:

Nice to know we have an advisor that graduated from Google U :D
I use Google only as a quick means to back up argument, I don't have time to scan in all the relevant documentation

How can you have valid criticism of the fact that your war memorial is based on a publicity shot ?:confused:

Amazing how you refuse to answer a direct question. Are you in politics?

Amazing how you refuse to answer a direct question. Are you in politics?
No I've been watching American politicians come on attempting to justify their actions, now are you going to answer my questions ?

Of course, but they don't rely on a publicity shot for a backround

I've known for years that the famous image everyone thinks of was actually the second time a flag was raised that day. According to these two sites (the only two I've had time to check) the second flag raising wasn't done for a photo op but to raise a larger flag that could be seen more easily. I wasn't personally there so I can't really comment on that, other than to listen to the eyewitness accounts from those that were there.

Would the memorial for Iwo Jima be any more valid to you if they had used the image from the first raising, or would the sight of Americans raising the American flag after a hard fought battle still be propaganda to you? :confused:

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/iwoflag.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raising_the_Flag_on_Iwo_Jima

No I've been watching American politicians come on attempting to justify their actions, now are you going to answer my questions ?

Not before you withdraw your "brainwashed" comment. Like I said, I won't enter a poisoned discussion.

Not before you withdraw your "brainwashed" comment. Like I said, I won't enter a poisoned discussion.
So you won't accept the fact that your government is brainwashing, or even, in your case then since I have to quantify the statement, attempting too ?

I've known for years that the famous image everyone thinks of was actually the second time a flag was raised that day. According to these two sites (the only two I've had time to check) the second flag raising wasn't done for a photo op but to raise a larger flag that could be seen more easily. I wasn't personally there so I can't really comment on that, other than to listen to the eyewitness accounts from those that were there.

Would the memorial for Iwo Jima be any more valid to you if they had used the image from the first raising, or would the sight of Americans raising the American flag after a hard fought battle still be propaganda to you? :confused:

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/iwoflag.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raising_the_Flag_on_Iwo_Jima


Raising the flag over conquered soil for propaganda purposes is always suspect to say the least. Using it as a fitting memorial for all those who fell in battle all over the world is unsuitable at best and an insult at worst.

Raising the flag over conquered soil for propaganda purposes is always suspect to say the least. Using it as a fitting memorial for all those who fell in battle all over the world is unsuitable at best and an insult at worst.

So which part is distasteful to you? The fact that they raised the American flag over conquered soil, or the fact that it has, in your eyes, become propaganda? I'm just trying to understand your viewpoint here.

So you won't accept the fact that your government is brainwashing, or even, in your case then since I have to quantify the statement, attempting too ?

Rich, this is at least the fourth time I've had to explain this to you. It's going to be the last because you're obviously not making a sincere attempt to understand it and you're starting to not make much sense.

Here is your quote:


If you ,Kenny and all those others can't see that the article and even the statue in question is an insult to those who lost their lives in the true fight for freedom then there is no hope and one can freely come to the the conclusion that as a nation you're brainwashed and know nothing about the true events of history other than that fed by the state.

Read it. It says that if you don't agree with my point of view regarding the article, then an entire "nation", whoever that may be, is "brainwashed". You have basically poisoned the well by saying any American who disagrees with me is part of a "nation" that is "brainwashed". Thus dismissing the integrity of any American opponent. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS? Answer the question directly. Yes or no.

So which part is distasteful to you? The fact that they raised the American flag over conquered soil, or the fact that it has, in your eyes, become propaganda? I'm just trying to understand your viewpoint here.

Why single out Iwo Jima as a fitting tribute, do none of the other battles matter, does the contribution of the USAF not matter?
Because it seems that in singling out the flag raising over Iwo Jima as memorial all the other battles and losses pale into insignificance and thus aren't worthy of any merit or remembrance :confused:

Why single out Iwo Jima as a fitting tribute, do none of the other battles matter, does the contribution of the USAF not matter?
Because it seems that in singling out the flag raising over Iwo Jima as memorial all the other battles and losses pale into insignificance and thus aren't worthy of any merit or remembrance :confused:
Please Rich (for the love of God), please do not interpret this as an attack because I mean this in the most pragmatic of tones: I think you're missing the point. The monument is not intended to single out Iwo Jima as the only significant battle, the monument uses an image which represents the struggle, sacrifice, and ultimate victory of United States soldiers in WWII. The fact that it happened to be a real image from a particular battle is incidental; it doesn't mean the other battles are insignificant.

I would also point out that there is, in fact, a memorial the encompasses a much greater breadth of WWII. http://www.wwiimemorial.com/ One could argue, though, that this memorial is beautiful but lacks the human element so powerfully conveyed by the Iwo Jima statue. One doesn't have more value than the other, they're just different.

Rich, this is at least the fourth time I've had to explain this to you. It's going to be the last because you're obviously not making a sincere attempt to understand it and you're starting to not make much sense.

Here is your quote:



Read it. It says that if you don't agree with my point of view regarding the article, then an entire "nation", whoever that may be, is "brainwashed". You have basically poisoned the well by saying any American who disagrees with me is part of a "nation" that is "brainwashed". Thus dismissing the integrity of any American opponent. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS? Answer the question directly. Yes or no.

I did not say "then an entire nation" I said "as a nation", the two statements are entirely different.
That means in my view your state is attempting to brainwash you as a nation, as to whether it's succeeding is certainly subjective.
If you're not prepared to state your view on the subject then one can of course draw ones own conclusions.
Kinda odd though that the only one here who's incensed by the seeming denegration of what should be a fitting tribute to all is a Brit.
You carry on nitpicking over semantics if you wish Dan

Please Rich (for the love of God), please do not interpret this as an attack because I mean this in the most pragmatic of tones: I think you're missing the point. The monument is not intended to single out Iwo Jima as the only significant battle, the monument uses an image which represents the struggle, sacrifice, and ultimate victory of United States soldiers in WWII. The fact that it happened to be a real image from a particular battle is incidental; it doesn't mean the other battles are insignificant.

I would also point out that there is, in fact, a memorial the encompasses a much greater breadth of WWII. http://www.wwiimemorial.com/ One could argue, though, that this memorial is beautiful but lacks the human element so powerfully conveyed by the Iwo Jima statue. One doesn't have more value than the other, they're just different.

I'm curious, who actually decided that the Iwo image would be a fiting tribute.
I understand what you're saying, I just find it hard to understand why an actual image was necessary.
But then I find pictures of the dead on gravestones rather macabre, it's almost as if family members can't remember their loved ones without a picture to remind them.

Why single out Iwo Jima as a fitting tribute, do none of the other battles matter, does the contribution of the USAF not matter?
Because it seems that in singling out the flag raising over Iwo Jima as memorial all the other battles and losses pale into insignificance and thus aren't worthy of any merit or remembrance :confused:

I see your point, but in my opinion you're reading too much into it. First of all, of course the contribution of the USAF matters, as well as the Army and Navy. But the Iwo Jima Memorial is a USMC memorial and they probably chose that picture because Iwo Jima was a battle fought by Marine Divisions and the picture, aside from the one Navy hospital corpsman, was entirely of Marines raising the flag. Here is the official National Park Service webpage for the Iwo Jima Memorial:

http://www.nps.gov/gwmp/usmc.htm

Second, I understand that it might seem to you that singling the flag raising out puts more importance on that battle than on any of the others, but I can assure you that I've never met anyone who feels that the battle at Iwo Jima was any more or less important than any other battle of WWII. We can't possibly have a war memorial for every battle that took place and typically, we don't memorialize individual battles but that particular memorial is the USMC's and that is the image they chose for their own memorial to honor fallen Marines.

Edit: Kraj said it much better than I did... :)

Thanks Cindy, now I understand, I wonder why it took a woman to point out that the memorial was intended for the marine corps :confused: :D

I'm curious, who actually decided that the Iwo image would be a fiting tribute.
I'm not positive. My best guess is that the photo was a Pulitzer Prize winner and had become the iconic image of the war. I think you have a point about the propoganda element but that was a part of how society handled war at that time, on both sides of the conflict. There was no negative connotation associated with propoganda at the time, so I doubt many people considered it inappropriate.

I understand what you're saying, I just find it hard to understand why an actual image was necessary.
At this point I'm completely speculating, but I think it was for the reasons I gave above. It wasn't neccessary, it's just that the image was so iconic by the time the memorial was commissioned.

I also must correct an earlier statement. The memorial is not dedicated to all the soldiers of WWII but rather to all members of the Marine Corps throughout all U.S. wars. EDIT: Whoops. Cindy beat me to the punch!

Edit: Kraj said it much better than I did... :)
No, I didn't. :)

That means in my view your state is attempting to brainwash you as a nation, as to whether it's succeeding is certainly subjective.


No it doesn't- it means if you don't agree with my point of view then America as a nation had been brainwashed. Your words : "as a nation you're brainwashed". There is no "attempting" about it. Why don't you fess up to what you have said?

You carry on nitpicking over semantics if you wish Dan

I nitpick over semantics to prevent you from re-defining your terms to suit.

Thanks Cindy, now I understand, I wonder why it took a woman to point out that the memorial was intended for the marine corps :confused: :D
Woman also serve in the Marines!

No it doesn't- it means if you don't agree with my point of view then America as a nation had been brainwashed. Your words : "as a nation you're brainwashed". There is no "attempting" about it. Why don't you fess up to what you have said?



I nitpick over semantics to prevent you from re-defining your terms to suit.

I've already settled the matter with a female member of the forum in an honourable manner satisfactory to both parties, looks like you missed the bus :p
However I do have issues concerning the link to the memorial in Washington that Kraj posted.

And John Wayne never served in the military!

Woman also serve in the Marines!
I'm sure they do a fine job too :cool:

And John Wayne never served in the military!

UH ? but according to Hollywood he and Mitchem won WW11? :confused:

UH ? but according to Hollywood he and Mitchem won WW11? :confused:

Consider the source

I doubt if King Kong, if he existed, would ice skate.(per Hollywood)

Thanks Cindy, now I understand, I wonder why it took a woman to point out that the memorial was intended for the marine corps :confused: :D

:D See, you should listen to me more often. :eek: :rolleyes:

No, I didn't. :)

But you're right, most people don't think of it as a USMC memorial but a WWII memorial in general, and I think what you said about it symbolizing the struggle and sacrifices of all soldiers in WWII is probably accurate. I think a lot of people just really identify with it because it has such a human element rather than just being a cold stone monument. The next closest thing in my mind would be the Vietnam memorial with all of the names on it, realizing just how many people fought and never came home from that one.

Woman also serve in the Marines!

I had a couple of friends in high school that joined up a couple of years after we graduated. :D

I doubt if King Kong,

I haven't seen the latest version and I've not heard very good reviews of it, anyone know if it's worth going to watch ?

I had a couple of friends in high school that joined up a couple of years after we graduated. :D

Did they serve alongside Benjamin, I've a couple of questions concerning her dimples ? :D :D

Thanks Cindy, now I understand, I wonder why it took a woman to point out that the memorial was intended for the marine corps :confused: :D

And that makes your entire rant on the propaganda angle void?

And that makes your entire rant on the propaganda angle void?
Nope, and why are you still here, missed the bus?

Nope, and why are you still here, missed the bus?

Actually, I was checking on you. I was rather ugly :o . Please don't take my posts too serious - I just like getting you wound up, kinda returning the favor :)

Actually, I was checking on you. I was rather ugly :o . Please don't take my posts too serious - I just like getting you wound up, kinda returning the favor :)

When are you going to start ?:confused:

When are you going to start ?:confused:

I guess I'm done on that topic :)

(For now anyway - :p )

I'll see if I can dig up something else if you want...:D

I guess I'm done on that topic :)

(For now anyway - :p )

I'll see if I can dig up something else if you want...:D
But you haven't answered my post concerning capitalism marring the very fine Washington memorial site yet :mad: :confused:

Can you humor me and provide me with a link and repost your original slanderous remarks?

http://www.wwiimemorial.com/

That's because unlike you I'm educated and in any case anyone who dares to criticise any aspect of America or its way of life is immediately accused of hatred and anti Americanism
:rolleyes:
That's really not fair, Rich.
You see, it's not that you criticize "any aspect" of America, you seem to criticize America constantly. I know in my heart that you have very ill feelings toward my country even though you have friends here. But, I would think that for the sake of those friends, of which I'd like to think I am one, you would lay off a little bit.
It has been drilled into us every day now for more than a year that you think we are a stupid, brainwashed, mass of people. It's beginning to become quite cruel. Like a husband telling his wife every day that she is fat and ugly.
It's passed the point of "the British like to wind people up"... it's quite hurtful. Especially when some of us have even conceeded points you have made (over and over again) in the past. Please... have some respect. Do I have to turn into a bloody fox to get your mercy? It's inhumane.

Isn't there a freaking ref around to throw in the bloody towel? Christ.... he must be in the damned Boxing Ring thread!!!!! :mad:

Enough already!

Good day to you sir.

I said... good day.

That's really not fair, Rich.
You see, it's not that you criticize "any aspect" of America, you seem to criticize America constantly. I know in my heart that you have very ill feelings toward my country even though you have friends here. But, I would think that for the sake of those friends, of which I'd like to think I am one, you would lay off a little bit.
It has been drilled into us every day now for more than a year that you think we are a stupid, brainwashed, mass of people. It's beginning to become quite cruel. Like a husband telling his wife every day that she is fat and ugly.
It's passed the point of "the British like to wind people up"... it's quite hurtful. Especially when some of us have even conceeded points you have made (over and over again) in the past. Please... have some respect. Do I have to turn into a bloody fox to get your mercy? It's inhumane.

Isn't there a freaking ref around to throw in the bloody towel? Christ.... he must be in the damned Boxing Ring thread!!!!! :mad:

Enough already!

Good day to you sir.

I said... good day.


I was being being bullied at the time Tess even though I was here defending the honour of your own guys :confused:

Anyway there's 256,000,000 of you against just me & Col :eek: ;) :D

I'm having a hard time understanding why you and Danny seem to be getting hung up on this "as a nation" tag, he refuses to discuss it having gotten tangled up in a point of order debacle.
Perhaps you can explain why you deem it personally offensive?

I'm having a hard time understanding why you and Danny seem to be getting hung up on this "as a nation" tag, he refuses to discuss it having gotten tangled up in a point of order debacle.
Perhaps you can explain why you deem it personally offensive?

Darling,
To be honest I didn't even read the entire argument, nor comment on any specific section, so I'm not sure how you could say that I am hung up on any particular point. I'm merely saying that you've been saying how much America sucks for so long that it's getting tiresome and annoying and hurtful because... I AM an American. I do identify with my country. It's the only one I have. I may not be in power or responsible for much if any of what my government does and feel betrayed by the current administration... but I'm still an American.

And Rich.... "I was being bullied..." Bullsquat! The first comment from you was made in response to someone saying something respectful about 6 young boys who respresent the bulk of our armed forces in America. Scared little boys in a horrible, dreadful circumstance called war. And then the first thing you say is "Staged... propaganda..." Obliterating any respectful tones. Kind of like calling a guy a jerk at his funeral cause he owed you 5 quid. Completely disrespectful, with no other intention than to disrupt and offend.

You started it. Don't blame anyone else this time.
When I first met you and Col, you were very charming gentlemen and I fell in love with you both. And even though you have shared some of your country's shortcomings, I certainly haven't flung back them in your face every day..... lol... actually, I don't think I've EVER said anything but admirable things about you, Col, and your country.... in SPITE of your flaws. And that is because I believe that you, Col, and the people of the UK, although flawed, are ultimately good-hearted, wonderful, compassionate people who, if given a chance to live in an ideal, peaceful world, would jump at that chance.

I am personally offended, Rich, because you have my affections and I treat you with respect, and I've commented before that this constant barrage of insults toward my country are really starting to upset me. I carved out a little boxing ring for that crap.... and it continues to pervade every post. It stinks.

Darling,
To be honest I didn't even read the entire argument, nor comment on any specific section, so I'm not sure how you could say that I am hung up on any particular point. I'm merely saying that you've been saying how much America sucks for so long that it's getting tiresome and annoying and hurtful because... I AM an American. I do identify with my country. It's the only one I have. I may not be in power or responsible for much if any of what my government does and feel betrayed by the current administration... but I'm still an American.

And Rich.... "I was being bullied..." Bullsquat! The first comment from you was made in response to someone saying something respectful about 6 young boys who respresent the bulk of our armed forces in America. Scared little boys in a horrible, dreadful circumstance called war. And then the first thing you say is "Staged... propaganda..." Obliterating any respectful tones. Kind of like calling a guy a jerk at his funeral cause he owed you 5 quid. Completely disrespectful, with no other intention than to disrupt and offend.

You started it. Don't blame anyone else this time.
When I first met you and Col, you were very charming gentlemen and I fell in love with you both. And even though you have shared some of your country's shortcomings, I certainly haven't flung back them in your face every day..... lol... actually, I don't think I've EVER said anything but admirable things about you, Col, and your country.... in SPITE of your flaws. And that is because I believe that you, Col, and the people of the UK, although flawed, are ultimately good-hearted, wonderful, compassionate people who, if given a chance to live in an ideal, peaceful world, would jump at that chance.

I am personally offended, Rich, because you have my affections and I treat you with respect, and I've commented before that this constant barrage of insults toward my country are really starting to upset me. I carved out a little boxing ring for that crap.... and it continues to pervade every post. It stinks.

Tess for Pres!:) :) :)

Tess for Pres!:) :) :)
I suggested it many moons ago, but got rebuffed

I am personally offended, Rich, because you have my affections and I treat you with respect, and I've commented before that this constant barrage of insults toward my country are really starting to upset me. I carved out a little boxing ring for that crap.... and it continues to pervade every post. It stinks.

Can I use Danny's criteria then and post a list of posts where I haven't even mentioned the US to disprove that statement ?


And Rich.... "I was being bullied..." Bullsquat! The first comment from you was made in response to someone saying something respectful about 6 young boys who respresent the bulk of our armed forces in America. Scared little boys in a horrible, dreadful circumstance called war. And then the first thing you say is "Staged... propaganda..." Obliterating any respectful tones. Kind of like calling a guy a jerk at his funeral cause he owed you 5 quid. Completely disrespectful, with no other intention than to disrupt and offend.


That's not so Tess, I don't need to read a fictitious account with stage managed characters to be aware of the sacrifices made on our behalf, I see the evidence every bloody day. :(


You started it. Don't blame anyone else this time.

I started it because it seemed to insult the memory of everybody else that sacrificed their lives for us, I'm sorry that you don't see it that way.

Your so noble...

Your so noble...

Well thank you but sweet talk will get you nowhere, I'm not that sort :p

So are you kind of in the middle of your busy season with the heating work?

So are you kind of in the middle of your busy season with the heating work?

That's getting near the end, it usually ends around Easter, however I still have the kitchen to contend with :mad: :D

Cupcake has me cleaning out the laundry room this morning :(

(I sneak over to the computer when she leaves the room :) )

Cupcake has me cleaning out the laundry room this morning :(



Isn't it her mess ?:confused:

Whoa... Bad juju here...

I started it because it seemed to insult the memory of everybody else that sacrificed their lives for us, I'm sorry that you don't see it that way.

And because she doesn't it see it your way she confirms your pretext expressed in your statement detailed below.


If you ,Kenny and all those others can't see that the article and even the statue in question is an insult to those who lost their lives in the true fight for freedom then there is no hope and one can freely come to the the conclusion that as a nation you're brainwashed and know nothing about the true events of history other than that fed by the state.

So as she doesn't see things your way. Do you then subscribe to the view that "as a nation you're brainwashed and know nothing about the true events of history other than that fed by the state"?

Can I use Danny's criteria then and post a list of posts where I haven't even mentioned the US to disprove that statement ?

I think the ratio between your American and non-American posts should prove very interesting. By all means, gather the figures.

Can I use Danny's criteria then and post a list of posts where I haven't even mentioned the US to disprove that statement ?


LMAO :D Are you saying that all American posts made by you are insults?

That's not so Tess, I don't need to read a fictitious account with stage managed characters to be aware of the sacrifices made on our behalf, I see the evidence every bloody day. :(

I started it because it seemed to insult the memory of everybody else that sacrificed their lives for us, I'm sorry that you don't see it that way.

I don't think the memorial insults any soldier's memory.
And I think the speech that man gave brings honor to all fallen men, as well as the men who lived through such horrors. And it bears remembering that many were just boys. That it was a staged photo doesn't change any of those facts.

I simply don't understand why you would want to sully anyone's memorial.
I am also sorry you don't see it my way.

However, you are quite right about me, Rich. I am woefully ignorant of much of my country's histories in battles as well as YOUR country's histories in battles. And, yes, I only know what I have been told because I wasn't bloody there!

But I do consider myself quite fortunate, that if I had to be born a woman, that I was at least given the blessing of being born in a country where my sexual organs weren't quite in danger of being cut with razors and obliterated. And that I'll never be burned alive for my family's inability to produce an adequate dowry. And that, for the most part, I am free to live my life as I choose. I think I would have that same liberty in your country as well. My life may be better in yours... it may be worse.... I can't really tell. But I do hope that our countries continue to be safe for both of our children and grandchildren for centuries to come. And I think we have a much better chance at that if we started to believe that we were all on the same side.

Time for my opinion on the subject - hurrah!

Tess has demonstrated wonderfully why I made such a fuss about the "poisoned well" scenario. I believe you NEVER put a label on someone or something they represent before you let them speak. This is the basis of prejudice and to me is entirely unacceptable.

Fortunately Tess rose above this prejudice and conveyed an opinion that I agree with.

The statue is a memorial. It is there to remind us of what our pre-decessors had gone through to make our society safe. It is not an historical document. The soldiers were marines but this doesn't matter - to a child they could have been ANY soldier. This is the point.

Countless people died to make sure evil did not prevail. This happened. If a staged memorial serves to remind our children of this fact then that is a good thing.

Me and my family live today in freedom because our and all the allied troops stood up to the evil that was Nazism. They knew they could die but they did it anyway. I didn't because I wasn't alive, but they did. The memorial was staged but it reminds me and my family that the deaths of countless soldiers like them were not. Their deaths were real. Me and my family thank them.

I think the ratio between your American and non-American posts should prove very interesting. By all means, gather the figures.


I don't need to find a ratio Danny, by your own logic I just need one post to disprove the charge

I don't need to find a ratio Danny, by your own logic I just need one post to disprove the charge

I didn't say you did Richy - I just said the ratio would be interesting to me. As I said, by all means, go find the figures.

And I think the speech that man gave brings honor to all fallen men, as well as the men who lived through such horrors. And it bears remembering that many were just boys. That it was a staged photo doesn't change any of those facts.

.

are you seriously suggesting that a complete stranger suddenly appears and knows all the names etc. of those who fell at Iwo ?:confused:

I simply don't understand why you would want to sully anyone's memorial.
I am also sorry you don't see it my way.



I haven't sullied anyones memorial, I just questioned the aptness of the one in question.

However, you are quite right about me, Rich. I am woefully ignorant of much of my country's histories in battles as well as YOUR country's histories in battles. And, yes, I only know what I have been told because I wasn't bloody there!


I didn't accuse you of ignorance Tess, I doubt if very few women from either of our countries could name that many battles either of our countries were involved in.
I wasn't bloody there either, thank God.



And I think we have a much better chance at that if we started to believe that we were all on the same side.

I've never suggested that we aren't, however we have now and always have had, different ideas on achieving the same objective.

I didn't say you did Richy - I just said the ratio would be interesting to me. As I said, by all means, go find the figures.

Are you seriously suggesting I have time to search through over 20,000 posts just to prove a point ? :eek:
Just one will suffice :cool: :p

Time for my opinion on the subject - hurrah!

Tess has demonstrated wonderfully why I made such a fuss about the "poisoned well" scenario. I believe you NEVER put a label on someone or something they represent before you let them speak. This is the basis of prejudice and to me is entirely unacceptable.

Fortunately Tess rose above this prejudice and conveyed an opinion that I agree with.

The statue is a memorial. It is there to remind us of what our pre-decessors had gone through to make our society safe. It is not an historical document. The soldiers were marines but this doesn't matter - to a child they could have been ANY soldier. This is the point.

Countless people died to make sure evil did not prevail. This happened. If a staged memorial serves to remind our children of this fact then that is a good thing.

Me and my family live today in freedom because our and all the allied troops stood up to the evil that was Nazism. They knew they could die but they did it anyway. I didn't because I wasn't alive, but they did. The memorial was staged but it reminds me and my family that the deaths of countless soldiers like them were not. Their deaths were real. Me and my family thank them.

Then we'll have to agree to disagree

I haven't sullied anyones memorial, I just questioned the aptness of the one in question.


I think you said a little more than that Richy :rolleyes:


The fact that he had artists doesn't detract from the fact that you guys need a staged picture of an American flag flying over a foreign land to remember those who fell in battle.


Edit: I can't speak for the other "guys". But my local cemetry gives me all the reminders I need.

Then we'll have to agree to disagree

Ok.

Just a quick question. Do you think the following statement is in anyway insulting?

"Never was so much owed by so many to so few"

Ok.

Just a quick question. Do you think the following statement is in anyway insulting?

"Never was so much owed by so many to so few"

No, it's from Shakespeare, isn't it? :confused:

No, it's from Shakespeare, isn't it? :confused:

No, it's from Winston Churchill. Shakespeare wrote something very similar in a play called Henry V.

Here it is:

"And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remembered-
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; "

Here it is:

"And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remembered-
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; "
No that's not what Churchill wrote, off the top of my head it goes something like
If Britain and its empire shall last for a thousand years men shall say this was their finest hour.
Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few

No that's not what Churchill wrote, off the top of my head it goes something like
If Britain and its empire shall last for a thousand years men shall say this was their finest hour.
Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few

Ok I was just wondering whether you could see the similarity in Shakespeare's words

Ok I was just wondering whether you could see the similarity in Shakespeare's words
I knew he borrowed it, as it were, do you have a point?
Oh and my Grandaughter wants to know why you look like Grommit ? :D

I knew he borrowed it, as it were, do you have a point?

Yes. From my English Literature studies I've learnt that it is generally recognised that the St. Crispian speech was a masterpiece of political speak.

I was wondering whether you thought Churchill used the same style of rhetoric in his remark for the same purpose? If so, do you think it is insulting, considering it's obvious parallels to a political maneouvre?


Oh and my Grandaughter wants to know why you look like Grommit ? :D

Tell her I don't but I do like a bit of Wensleydale ;)

I was wondering whether you thought Churchill used the same style of rhetoric in his remark for the same purpose? If so, do you think it is insulting, considering it's obvious parallels to a political maneouvre?


Not really, I doubt that the vast majority of Brits are even aware of it's origins, what they were aware of was its masterful use of oratory to raise their flagging spirits and to pay tribute to those who defended us at such great cost and against overwhelming odds at the time.

Tell her I don't but I do like a bit of Wensleydale

She doesn't like cheese :eek: :D

Not really, I doubt that the vast majority of Brits are even aware of it's origins, what they were aware of was its masterful use of oratory to raise their flagging spirits and to pay tribute to those who defended us at such great cost and against overwhelming odds at the time.


So the fact that he borrowed that same style of rhetoric from a speech made for the stage and attributed that to real people who died doesn't bother you? Even though King Henry was acting aggressor in a foreign country when he supposedly made the speech. You don't think the political parallels are relevant, is that right?

So the fact that he borrowed that same style of rhetoric from a speech made for the stage and attributed that to real people who died doesn't bother you? Even though King Henry was acting aggressor in a foreign country when he supposedly made the speech. You don't think the political parallels are relevant, is that right?

No, you seem to be scraping around the bottom of the barrel here Dan, like you said it's only hearsay anyway.
Having said that here's a further insight into the topic

http://www.crisispapers.org/essays/henry-george.htm

No, you seem to be scraping around the bottom of the barrel here Dan, like you said it's only hearsay anyway.


I was just asking whether it bothered you. You said it doesn't. It doesn't bother me either. I thought it may have bothered you a little bit considering your reaction to the Iwo Jima memorial. But I was wrong.


http://www.crisispapers.org/essays/henry-george.htm

Thanks - a good read. The anti-Bush slant was very familiar.

This paragraph I found very interesting:

"Those who have seen the Olivier film are likely to agree: it is a
masterpiece. It is also a propaganda piece, produced in England during the
war when the Churchill government had an urgent need to remind the British
people of their historic capacity to prevail over hardship and overwhelming
military might. For this purpose, Henry V was the perfect choice."

Do you consider Churchill's quote as propoganda? Do you consider the film as propoganda?

Do you consider Churchill's quote as propoganda? Do you consider the film as propoganda?

Of course, but for different reasons to that of the battle flag raised over Iwo.
A/ Churchill was giving praise to a very small unit that stood up to the overwhelming odds it faced.
B/ It was also to boost the flagging morale of the civilian population that too was also paying a terrible price.
So he beg, stole and borrowed to achieve his goal, that cannot be compared to a stage managed event, especially when there was no threat to the American civilian, well other than the odd fire ballon.

So he beg, stole and borrowed to achieve his goal, that cannot be compared to a stage managed event, especially when there was no threat to the American civilian, well other than the odd fire ballon.

You don't consider the bombing of Pearl Harbour as a threat to American civilians?:confused:

You don't consider the bombing of Pearl Harbour as a threat to American civilians?:confused:
Well if my knowledge of WW11 serves me correct then the events at Pearl Harbor happened long before the battle of Iwo Jima.
Plus of course Pearl Harbor was a mainly military target.

NB American viewers will note that I've used the American spelling of Pearl Harbor in deference to those who lost their lives there

Well if my knowledge of WW11 serves me correct then the events at Pearl Harbor happened long before the battle of Iwo Jima.

However the war that Iwo Jima was a part of, was directly caused by this event. Yes?


Plus of course Pearl Harbor was a mainly military target.


In which American civilians died on US soil. Which means it was a direct threat against American civilians. Yes?

Weren't the RAF airfields in the UK mainly military targets?

Weren't the RAF airfields in the UK mainly military targets?

Initially yes, but then as we all know by the end of what's termed the Battle of Britain the Nazis had long since made civilians the primary target.
Of course although the Battle of Britain was over the Nazis turned their entire effort against Britain by singling out civilians during the continued Blitz of the country.
So whilst Churchills speech was a tribute to the RAF it was also an attempt to bolster civilian morale during which time the only defence they had was courage.
Would you like some true stories from those who lived through the carnage that ensued?

Now whilst it's true there were civilians killed during Pearl Harbor, they weren't the primary target, neither was the American civilian population.
So I have to ask what the purpose of the image over Iwo was, were the American population loosing interest, the will to carry on etc.?
Was it to boost the sale of war bonds :confused:

Would you like some true stories from those who lived through the carnage that ensued?

I've read plenty thanks. I thoroughly enjoyed my visit to the Imperial War Musuem at Duxford, UK. My visit to the American Cemetry at Cambridge, UK was also very moving.


Now whilst it's true there were civilians killed during Pearl Harbor, they weren't the primary target, neither was the American civilian population.

I didn't say they were Rich. I'm just trying to make you understand that Japan's attack is seen by the US as a direct act of aggression against the United States. From that it was a threat against US civilians. You said it wasn't a threat. I disagree.


So I have to ask what the purpose of the image over Iwo was, were the American population loosing interest, the will to carry on etc.?
Was it to boost the sale of war bonds :confused:

It was a piece of propoganda to convey the sentiment that good must triumph over evil. A rousing for the war weary troops. Much like Churchill's propoganda. It now serves as a reminder of what those troops went through far from their own homes.

Japan attempted to invade US soil - we quelled that threat. Just like the allied troops did in Europe. The similarities to me are obvious.

I didn't say they were Rich. I'm just trying to make you understand that Japan's attack is seen by the US as a direct act of aggression against the United States. From that it was a threat against US civilians. You said it wasn't a threat. I disagree.


No, I'm saying civilians didn't shoulder the brunt of the attack.



Japan attempted to invade US soil - we quelled that threat. Just like the allied troops did in Europe. The similarities to me are obvious.

Well not really, she violated American soil, she was too far stretched to ever pose a direct threat of invasion to America, Australia maybe

No, I'm saying civilians didn't shoulder the brunt of the attack.

That's true. I hope you understand how it was seen as a threat though.


Well not really, she violated American soil, she was too far stretched to ever pose a direct threat of invasion to America, Australia maybe

From my understanding, Japan had every intention of occupying Hawaii. Did Britain not have to surrender Singapore to them? This was to remove the main presence of resistance against their plans of conquest in the south pacific. The US didn't allow this to happen. It was just as crucial for the US to keep a presence in the South Pacific as it was for the UK to remain in Europe. To quell the plans of conquest from nations with obvious mal-intent.

Are you getting any closer to understanding why I don't find the Iwo Jima memorial offensive?

Here is an article regarding the attack on Singapore.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/fall_of_singapore.htm

Can you believe that they actually doused gasoline on the retreating allied troops and set them on fire?

It's crystal clear to me why we have a memorial depicting the defeat of such savagery.

Did Britain not have to surrender Singapore to them?
Only because of the prat who was in charge ther, plus the ineffectiveness of the American torpedoes at the time

The US didn't allow this to happen.
That's down to the good fortune and luck that the carriers were out on exercise at the time

Are you getting any closer to understanding why I don't find the Iwo Jima memorial offensive?

I never suggested that you found it offensive, nor would I expect you too ;)

Just curious here, do you know why this event was kept secret for so long ?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3656939.stm

Here is an article regarding the attack on Singapore.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/fall_of_singapore.htm

Can you believe that they actually doused gasoline on the retreating allied troops and set them on fire?

It's crystal clear to me why we have a memorial depicting the defeat of such savagery.

I'm fully aware of the savagery those thugs displayed, that's why this American hating Anti American Brit stoutly defended the dropping of the A bombs on this forum earlier.
Of course if the forum hadn't been hacked I could have posted it to disprove the charges against me, couldn't I ? :mad: ;)

Only because of the prat who was in charge ther, plus the ineffectiveness of the American torpedoes at the time

I think both Britain and the US were guilty of complacency.


That's down to the good fortune and luck that the carriers were out on exercise at the time

Thank God!



I never suggested that you found it offensive, nor would I expect you too ;)

I know Rich. I was just asking whether you were any closer to accepting my opinion that the Iwo Jima memorial isn't offensive and that I have good reasons for that opinion.


Just curious here, do you know why this event was kept secret for so long ?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3656939.stm

Obviously for propaganda reasons during the war. I have no idea why it's taken so long to be revealed thereafter. Do you have a theory?

I'm fully aware of the savagery those thugs displayed, that's why this American hating Anti American Brit stoutly defended the dropping of the A bombs on this forum earlier.
Of course if the forum hadn't been hacked I could have posted it to disprove the charges against me, couldn't I ? :mad: ;)

The reason why you face such charges is because you make statements such as these:


The fact that he had artists doesn't detract from the fact that you guys need a staged picture of an American flag flying over a foreign land to remember those who fell in battle.


Why you don't see that you've made the rod for your own back - baffles me :confused:

Do you have a theory?

Being a fair minded and non controversial character that I am, I'd put it down to just being lost in the annals of history.
I do wonder why though the US charged £50 for the sherman that divers brought back to the surface to serve as a memorial :confused:


I know Rich. I was just asking whether you were any closer to accepting my opinion that the Iwo Jima memorial isn't offensive and that I have good reasons for that opinion.

So would it be fair to come to the conclusion from this discussion that Americans attach more significance to the Pacific campaign than the European one ? :confused:

The reason why you face such charges is because you make statements such as these:



Why you don't see that you've made the rod for your own back - baffles me :confused:

I was given the wrong information at the time regarding whom the memorial was dedicated to. It took one of the learned female posters to point out that it was a memorial dedicated to the marines.
Now, is it an apt memorial to their memory? The jury's still out on that one.
Oddly enough, this American hating, anti American Brit was defending the US Marine Corps, just a few days ago, does that refute the charge?

So would it be fair to come to the conclusion from this discussion that Americans attach more significance to the Pacific campaign than the European one ? :confused:

No I don't think that would be fair. As I said, the memorial serves to remind us of ALL the soldiers who died fighting an aggresive, conquering, malicious force. Whether that be the Japanese or the Nazis. It was staged, and it is a piece of propaganda. However, just like Churchill's "borrowings", this doesn't detract from it's value as a reminder of what actually passed.

I was given the wrong information at the time regarding whom the memorial was dedicated to. It took one of the learned female posters to point out that it was a memorial dedicated to the marines.

I don't see how that justifies your statement. The statement was an insult to every American who tends a relative's grave who died fighting for their country. My wife's father died from injuries he sustained in Vietnam. She doesn't need the Iwo Jima memorial to remember the fallen. As I said before, there are plenty of reminders in our local cemetry.


Now, is it an apt memorial to their memory? The jury's still out on that one.

I'm glad you've accepted that your opinion is not a foregone conclusion. To be honest, this was all that I was asking from you.


Oddly enough, this American hating, anti American Brit was defending the US Marine Corps, just a few days ago, does that refute the charge?

It doesn't excuse your statement regarding our "need" for the Iwo Jima memorial.

The statement was an insult to every American who tends a relative's grave who died fighting for their country.
No that's not fair, they don't, nor ever did need a large bronze to remind them.

My wife's father died from injuries he sustained in Vietnam.
That's very sad and I'm sorry to hear it, even more so when the lives of those lost were simply wasted in a war that had no merit.

I'm glad you've accepted that your opinion is not a foregone conclusion. To be honest, this was all that I was asking from you.


It wouldn't have been a foregone conclusion had the correct information been given in the first place.

It doesn't excuse your statement regarding our "need" for the Iwo Jima memorial.

Now put your hand on your heart and tell me how many Americans today would be able to recall Iwo had it not been for the picture and the subsequent film of the event?

No I don't think that would be fair. As I said, the memorial serves to remind us of ALL the soldiers who died fighting an aggresive, conquering, malicious force.

What about the airmen and sailors ? :confused:

No that's not fair, they don't, nor ever did need a large bronze to remind them.

I know that Rich. Perhaps you should have thought about this before you said what you did. You had no idea whether any of the people you termed as "guys", tended graves of one who had fallen.


That's very sad and I'm sorry to hear it, even more so when the lives of those lost were simply wasted in a war that had no merit.

My wife considers LBJ as the third anti-Christ.

It wouldn't have been a foregone conclusion had the correct information been given in the first place.

It was never a foregone conclusion.

Now put your hand on your heart and tell me how many Americans today would be able to recall Iwo had it not been for the picture and the subsequent film of the event?

The fact that the picture reminds them of the event is a good thing. I know it is a piece of propaganda but it is better than no reminder at all.

What about the airmen and sailors ? :confused:

We have memorials for them too.

We have memorials for them too.
Well of course now I'm curious, what's on the naval one, re-enactment of Midway, the Solomoms, Ironclads or mission accomplished ?

I knew we could make some progress in this thread if we just held in there until Col's home time... :D

(I know it's hard to believe but I'm not going to do a fart )
At least when I'm here, the thread doesn't deteriorate into people telling everyone about their bodily functions:rolleyes:

Is that progress?

Col

At least when I'm here, the thread doesn't deteriorate into people telling everyone about their bodily functions:rolleyes:


Col
Yeah and I'm the one accused of insulting the solemnity of the thread :rolleyes:

At least when I'm here, the thread doesn't deteriorate into people telling everyone about their bodily functions:rolleyes:

Is that progress?

Col

Sorry...:o

Sorry...:o
and so you should be, go and sit in the corner for an hour

and so you should be, go and sit in the corner for an hour
.
.
.
.
:mad:

You know, Rich, at this point I don't care whether your points are right or wrong or whatever, but I do have this to say: right or wrong, you hurt TessB's feelings. Your words in this thread, and many others, hurt the feelings of someone who respects and cares about you and whom you claim to care bout a respect. When that happens, a decent person doesn't defend his or her statements or point out why the other person shouldn't be hurt; a decent person apologizes. Sincerely.

That's all I have to say.

.
.
.
.
:mad:
and stop sulking....

You know, Rich, at this point I don't care whether your points are right or wrong or whatever, but I do have this to say: right or wrong, you hurt TessB's feelings. Your words in this thread, and many others, hurt the feelings of someone who respects and cares about you and whom you claim to care bout a respect. When that happens, a decent person doesn't defend his or her statements or point out why the other person shouldn't be hurt; a decent person apologizes. Sincerely.

That's all I have to say.
You need to go back and read some more posts

Sorry...:o

That was my fault. I put you up to it.
You didn't know any better. :p

At least when I'm here, the thread doesn't deteriorate into people telling everyone about their bodily functions:rolleyes:

Is that progress?

Col

Me and Rich had a very reasonable discussion over the weekend. I don't believe a single word was said in anger.:)

Well of course now I'm curious, what's on the naval one, re-enactment of Midway, the Solomoms, Ironclads or mission accomplished ?

Do your own homework you lazy so and so. :rolleyes: :p

Me and Rich had a very reasonable discussion over the weekend. I don't believe a single word was said in anger.:)
I know, I read it. I thought Rich was very restrained;)

Anyway, I was referring to Kenny's wind problem.:rolleyes:

Col

I know, I read it. I thought Rich was very restrained;)

You must be so proud of him :p

Anyway, I was referring to Kenny's wind problem.:rolleyes:
Col

You'll have to excuse him - he can't help it. :p

I know, I read it. I thought Rich was very restrained;)

Anyway, I was referring to Kenny's wind problem.:rolleyes: