Why do you suppose people in our country are advocating changing government documents to be in Spanish as well as English?

States are being sued for it, the general population disagrees with it, yet it continues.

Who are these people? Certainly, you would expect a more thought out response from the Hispanic intelligentsia, but they are some of the most ardent supporters. You would think the Spanish speaking politicians would get on a “learn English” band wagon, but none has materialized.

I think it’s a conspiracy to create a divided class in our country. Race didn’t work, so let’s use language and culture to create a new class of working poor. Why else would so many people encourage the spread of the Spanish language in our country?

We have never faced this problem on such a wide spread basis before. At the very time when European American numbers are dwindling, Latino numbers in the US are growing. Not a bad problem in itself, except when you consider that most of the Latinos bring their culture with them, a culture predominated by disdain for education and where the rich own everything.

Here in Northern Virginia it is almost a weekly occasion where an Hispanic man gets run over by a car. And daily you have to stop to keep from hitting someone walking out in front of you. Why are we alloying this language and culture to infiltrate our country to this extent?

The reason is simply cheap labor. Politicians (both parties) need them for different reasons. Many of these undocumented aliens are also driving their vehicles without insurance coverage. If they hit your car, you are out of luck. You have to depend on your own insurance coverage for repairs. They are also enjoying several privileges that the United States citizens and legal resident aliens do not have. The hispanic community enjoys significant political support from local politicians and local Police. Pres. Bush wants to keep Mexican Pres. Vincente Fox happy.

America is what it is because previous waves of immigrants ASSIMILATED. That’s why we call ourselves the great melting pot. The single most important reason for this is LANGUAGE. Immigrants learned the language as best they could but their children spoke it like the natives they were. This doesn't mean they forgot their culture or where they came from but they came here because they wanted to be here (except the slaves of course, but that's another situation) and they wanted to BE Americans. The current wave of immigrants seems to think we owe them something. They are here because they want to take not give or belong. They have no interest in becoming an American and they don’t want their children to be Americans either and the evidence of that is that they refuse to assimilate. They insist that their children be educated in the native language of their parents rather than the language of the United States of America. My husband’s grandmother would never have though of insisting that her children should be educated in Polish. Nor would my great grandparents have insisted that their children be educated in Gaelic. I am a great proponent of English as a second language education and I’m happy to have my government provide it for free, but I am absolutely against teaching regular school subjects in any language other than English. Children are like sponges. They absorb language much easier than adults. If the immigrants want their children to be educated in the language of the old country, let THEM pay for private schooling. When my husband and I took an assignment in Kuwait, we could have sent our daughter to a Kuwaiti school and we probably would have if we were going to be in the country more than a year. But instead WE paid to send her to an international school where the courses were taught in English but the students came from all over the world. We used to take one of our daughter’s friends with us when we went shopping if we were going to need to negotiate. Lana, who was 8, spoke Arabic, French, and English and was a Lebanese refugee. So, no we didn’t assimilate but we also didn’t expect the locals to cater to us either.

So far millions have had no compunction against breaking immigration laws to sneak across our borders and I am fed up that my government not only allows it but encourages it. Corporate America has convinced our Congress that there are labor shortages because there are jobs that Americans won’t do and so they need a continuing supply of cheap foreign labor despite the high rates of unemployment in many areas. Of course the problem is that Americans cannot afford to work for the wages the companies want to pay. Where I live in Fairfield County in Connecticut, the minimum income required to keep body and soul together is three times the minimum wage! Americans cannot afford to work for minimum wage or less unless they are willing to sleep in an alley. They cannot even afford a roach infested slum. So, the companies that pay minimum wage, the burger chains, the landscaping companies, the builders, the cleaning companies, etc. simply look the other way and hire illegal aliens. You can’t “get it your way” any more unless you speak Spanish. The reason that illegal aliens can afford to live on minimum wage when Americans can’t is because they are willing to live 12 to a room and send every penny they can home. Mexico’s largest source of income is remittances sent by Mexican citizens working in the US.

Corporate America is being penny wise and pound foolish. By driving Americans out of the job market, they are loosing the very consumer base they rely on. The cheap foreign laborers both legal and illegal are not spending their money here. They are sending it home. It is being entirely removed from the American economy. If things keep up at this rate, I would bet that by the end of this century, Americans will be doing everything they can to emigrate to some other country.

The labor shortages become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Our politicians get on their soapboxes and say get more education! Education is the key to keeping high tech jobs here. Well, guess what, how many kids are going to be stupid enough to aspire to grow up to be programmers or engineers or accountants or even some medical specialties when all those jobs are being outsourced as fast as corporations can do it? And when they can’t outsource, they import cheap foreign labor and force their existing employees to train their replacements.

Thank you for joining us Pat.

I see this thread is not for the faint at heart.

It's only open to Americans though, isn't it? :confused:

It's only open to Americans though, isn't it? :confused:

Blast Away.

It's only open to Americans though, isn't it? :confused:

Except for Native Americans -- where the rule runs in reverse. Wasn't there a massive thread on this a few months ago?

There is a conspiracy of sorts afoot in the good ole U.S. There are a large number of people who feel that the US should be bilingual (English/Spanish). Almost everyone agrees it will take a consitutional amendment to bring this about. Why don't these people work in this area and give the general public a chance to express their views through their state legislatures. Instead they bring test cases in the courts.
Democracy, what an interesting concept.
By the way, I can see an amendment passing in CA, FL, TX, NM, AZ and NY. Possibly in CTand PA but you'll also need places like DL, WY, KS, and AK. Not a chance.

Speaking for myself and not necessarily the rest of the UK (I am not yet President) I find the current culture of Political Correctness totally appalling.

This morning I heard on the radio that someone has asked that Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs should be renamed Snow White and the Seven Small People or something.

maybe a small point but clearly illustrates the intellect of some people.

This country Great Britain comprises England Ireland Scotland and Wales. All have their own culture and language in their own right with the National Language being English. I see no objection to road signs in Gaelic in Wales, that's part of their culture and therefore part of the culture of the UK

If you want to come to this country the be prepared to adopt the language and culture. No need to give up your own but do not expect this country to change to suit you.

Bit of a rant sorry but I like lots of people I believe are fed up with our culture, language etc being interfered to suit basically non UK persons.

If you decide to live in another country then show some respect for that country and do not expect or attempt to change to suit you.

Ranting again

Len

From Len Boorman

I see no objection to road signs in Gaelic in Wales

Have you tried finding your way round strange towns in Wales? It's a nightmare with their bilingual signs, just have the one language and if that's Gaelic so be it I'll learn to read what's nescessary.

I agree with the rest of your post it annoys the hell out of me to go to Spain anf finding expats trying to set up a little England, I don't go there for roast beef and warm beer. :mad:

brian

Gaelic in Wales?

Have you tried finding your way round strange towns in Wales?

brian

Try to keep to the not so strange towns myself, but everybody to his own I say

:D

L

Gaelic in Wales?


If that is what you want ???.

Myself I have had a sheltered upbringing

:D

L

This morning I heard on the radio that someone has asked that Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs should be renamed Snow White and the Seven Small People or something.

Len

It's a gross violation of their human rights under the EU constitution; it's also now illegal to coo coo babies for the same reason and it won't be long before differentiation of the sexes will be banned!


......................without prejudice......................................... ...........
Disclaimer, nothing in this post is intended to be offensive to other strange cultures around the world, it has been thoroughly scanned to remove any thing that could possibly be misconstrued as xenophobic or anti- strange culture, and it may not be cited in evidence in any resultant dispute

Gaelic in Wales?

Len probably meant Celtic, Both Gaelic (Scots,Irish or Manx) and Welsh, Cornish and Breton are Celtic Languages, the Gaelic from the Q group and the latter 3 from the P group and never the twain shall meet. :)

Brian

Celtic, Both Gaelic (Scots,Irish or Manx) and Welsh, Cornish and Breton are Celtic......



I thought these are whisky's :D


BTW :
Happy Birthday Brian :)

I thought these are whisky's :D :)

Isn't one of those a chicken? :rolleyes:

Thanks for the best wishes Rak , but only the first is a whisky the second is a whiskey then in order a cat , a ???, a pastie and a beret :D

despite wesh ancestory I cannot think what else Wales is noted for :rolleyes:

Brian

Isn't one of those a chicken? :rolleyes:

enlighten me please :confused:

brian

Thanks for the best wishes Rak , but only the first is a whisky the second is a whiskey then in order a cat , a ???, a pastie and a beret :D

despite wesh ancestory I cannot think what else Wales is noted for :rolleyes:

Brian

My pleasure Brian.


Isn't one of those a chicken?


I think Friday mixed up Garlic with Gaelic.

Thanks for the best wishes Rak , but only the first is a whisky the second is a whiskey then in order a cat , a ???, a pastie and a beret :D
Brian
Bit you missed i.e a ??? referring to the Welsh thingy is a rarebit I think.

and yes I was obviously thinking of Celtic au naturelmont Rodney

L

a pastie


Brian
That's pasty by the way ;) :D

Thanks to Len and Rich for helping out, the old grey matter isn't functionung to well today :D
Like everyday really ;)
Brian

Since my and probably most of your ancesters were persecuted by the Romans, I strongly protest against the current names for the months of the year since they are Latin in origin; and I propose we now refer to the months as follows:

January = MonthOne
February = ColdOne
March = Beets
April = Winnebago
May = Notepad
June = Madagascar
July = Shoeless
August = SomethingSaxon
September = DotNettles
October = BriansBirthday
November = PaperClip
December = Sandwich

Regards,
Tim

I must admit that the skill :confused: in forming such well defined and meaningful names for each month :eek: leaves me in awe of the identities you must have for tables, forms, fields and queries in your databases.

Who said the world is missing out on intellectual input

L

Thanks to Len and Rich for helping out, the old grey matter isn't functionung to well today :D

Brian
I only know that's how it's spelt because I live next door to 'em, still we all have our cross to bear, it could be worse I suppose, I might be unfortunate enough to live next door to the Welsh :eek: :D

I might be unfortunate enough to live next door to the Welsh :eek: :D

Giving the Americans a rest Rich, or just spreading your favours? :D

Brian

I try and be fair to all :D

..think it’s a conspiracy to create a divided class in our country.
What is it with conspiracy theories? I won't give these guys that much credit, there isn't an intelligent reason for it.

Aside...I thought you already had this. When I lived in Jamaica I used to go to Miami for Christmas presents and even the guy checking your passport barely spoke English. That city probably has a majority of Spanish speakers.

It's a gross violation of their human rights under the EU constitution; it's also now illegal to coo coo babies for the same reason and it won't be long before differentiation of the sexes will be banned!


......................without prejudice......................................... ...........
Disclaimer, nothing in this post is intended to be offensive to other strange cultures around the world, it has been thoroughly scanned to remove any thing that could possibly be misconstrued as xenophobic or anti- strange culture, and it may not be cited in evidence in any resultant dispute
What's Coo Coo

IMHO, there is no conspiracy. Here in the states the politicians respond to those that voice thier opinions loudly, AND TURN OUT TO VOTE. Unfortunatly, there is less than 50% of the LEGAL population registered to vote, and only 1/2 of them usually do. Those that vote regularly are usually sheeple that will do the bidding of thier party no matter what.
Politicians for the most part are bought and paid for before they even run for office. Try finding out what it takes to become a Senator, Congressman, or even a Govenor and you will see that you have to "Build a warchest" of certain amts before you can even claim to be running.

For all those that are sick of it all, write me in for the next election you encounter. I dont care what it is for (MUST BE IN THE STATES), but just write me in. I think that if enough decent people got in and tried to get the offices when they came up for election, there would be fear in Washington. Want the masses to be heard over the tiny fringe groups, then either run for office or support someone who is that hasnt been pre-paid.

Put up or shut up, if your not willing to fix it DONT COMPLAIN ABOUT IT.

What's Coo Coo
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/4284522.stm :rolleyes:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/4284522.stm :rolleyes:

Well you can certainly understand why some people are still conservatives.

Well you can certainly understand why some people are still conservatives.
Now would that be American or British conservatives?
I only ask because of course British conservatives brought us two of the greatest leaders in our modern history, American conservatives brought us George Bush :mad: :p

Now would that be American or British conservatives?
I only ask because of course British conservatives brought us two of the greatest leaders in our modern history, American conservatives brought us George Bush :mad: :p
He is certainly in class all by himself.

He is certainly in class all by himself.
And he's at the top of it too :cool:

I must admit that the skill :confused: in forming such well defined and meaningful names for each month :eek: leaves me in awe of the identities you must have for tables, forms, fields and queries in your databases.

Who said the world is missing out on intellectual input

L

Someone take away Len's whiskey -- he's throwing around his intellect in the WaterCooler.

Regards,
Tim

That city probably has a majority of Spanish speakers.

I recall going to a big grocery store near the Miami airport a few years ago where the produce was labeled in Spanish and, too, the checkout clerk asked for my money in Spanish.

Regards,
Tim

Did you pay with Pesetas? :D

Did you pay with Pesetas? :D
Hah! I wouldn't have complained, if I had... Thinking about it a little more now: I wonder if they sold Cohibas...

Why do you suppose people in our country are advocating changing government documents to be in Spanish as well as English?

States are being sued for it, the general population disagrees with it, yet it continues.

Who are these people? Certainly, you would expect a more thought out response from the Hispanic intelligentsia, but they are some of the most ardent supporters. You would think the Spanish speaking politicians would get on a “learn English” band wagon, but none has materialized.

I think it’s a conspiracy to create a divided class in our country. Race didn’t work, so let’s use language and culture to create a new class of working poor. Why else would so many people encourage the spread of the Spanish language in our country?

We have never faced this problem on such a wide spread basis before. At the very time when European American numbers are dwindling, Latino numbers in the US are growing. Not a bad problem in itself, except when you consider that most of the Latinos bring their culture with them, a culture predominated by disdain for education and where the rich own everything.

Here in Northern Virginia it is almost a weekly occasion where an Hispanic man gets run over by a car. And daily you have to stop to keep from hitting someone walking out in front of you. Why are we alloying this language and culture to infiltrate our country to this extent?

Despite your protestations to the contrary it's quite obvious that you're opposed to change.
What is it exactly that you're afraid of?
Canada manages very well with two languages and more than one culture, why can't you.

Canada manages very well with two languages and more than one culture ......

Yes, same as Belgium, although I'm not sure about the culture being one there :rolleyes:

Despite your protestations to the contrary it's quite obvious that you're opposed to change.
What is it exactly that you're afraid of?
Canada manages very well with two languages and more than one culture, why can't you.
Oh yea, that's why Quebec wants to succeed.
What a good example :rolleyes:

Everything You Always Wanted to KNow but Were Too Smart to Ask
Does the English language make much sense?
No. English, it may be a stupid language, but it's ours. We eat eggplants without eggs, hamburgers without ham, and pineapples that have neither pine nor apples. We also pick at sweetmeats, which are meatless candies, and sweetbreads, which are unsweetened, breadless meat.

I'm still too sick to talk today. But maybe tomorrow I'll enlighten our British buddy.

Despite your protestations to the contrary it's quite obvious that you're opposed to change.
What is it exactly that you're afraid of?
Canada manages very well with two languages and more than one culture, why can't you.

Ah! Canada another country Rich is an expert on without, apparently ,having visited.
If he has deepest apologies but his perception is very different to the one I came away with.

Brian

enlighten me please :confused:

brian

Cornish Chicken (http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/C/Cornishh.asp)

Ah! Canada another country Rich is an expert on without, apparently ,having visited.
If he has deepest apologies but his perception is very different to the one I came away with.

Brian
I've lost count of the number of times I've been on the piste in Canada Brian, with both those of British and French descent, I'm well aware of the dispute in Canada between what's seen as British Canada and French Canada. Those divisions are deep rooted in history and are still caused because some French don't want the Queen as head of state and still live in the past, although I have to say the French claim for independence does not have universal support even amongst the French in Canada.
It's not the same problem being discussed on this thread, unless it's being suggested that the Hispanics are going to demand independence for it's lost colonies.
Oh and by the way one gets one's education by learning, would you accuse me of not having any knowledge of WW11 simply because I didn't live through it?

Cornish Chicken (http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/C/Cornishh.asp)
The Barred Plymouth Rock , is barred meant in the literal sense here? :confused: :D

Many areas on the border are more than 50% Hispanic. Unlike the Québécois who want their own country, these largely Hispanic areas will never ask to secede as long as we provide free healthcare and other welfare benefits. They don't want to be independent, they'd have to take care of themselves and they certainly don't want to attach themselves to Mexico or Cuba.

Someone take away Len's whiskey -- he's throwing around his intellect in the WaterCooler.

Regards,
Tim

Okay I apoligissssssssssssse

Not a problem, of course.

Regards,
Tim

The Barred Plymouth Rock , is barred meant in the literal sense here? :confused: :D

Main Entry: 2bar
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): barred; bar·ring
1 a : to fasten with a bar b : to place bars across to prevent ingress or egress
2 : to mark with bars : STRIPE
3 a : to confine or shut in by or as if by bars b : to set aside : RULE OUT c : to keep out : EXCLUDE
4 a : to interpose legal objection to or to the claim of b : PREVENT, FORBID :D

Many areas on the border are more than 50% Hispanic. Unlike the Québécois who want their own country, these largely Hispanic areas will never ask to secede as long as we provide free healthcare and other welfare benefits. They don't want to be independent, they'd have to take care of themselves and they certainly don't want to attach themselves to Mexico or Cuba.
This viewpoint doesn't seem to be supported by the statistics posted for the border area in Texas. That clearly shows that poverty levels amongst Hispanics in the area are very high and their health is generally poor because they receive no healthcare benefits at all. I have to wonder how much of singling out a specific race for this claim is actually warranted and how much is a myth perpetrated and fuelled by a populist right wing press.
1 in 7 of the American population is Hispanic, in order to lay claim to the charge that they all live on benefits would mean that the entire unemployed of America are Hispanic.
Maybe there just aren’t enough jobs for them in the border areas, are there any government schemes to assist them with moving to areas where there are jobs, are there any government training schemes?
Does the government do anything at all to alleviate the problem?

Maybe there just aren’t enough jobs for them in the border areas, are there any government schemes to assist them with moving to areas where there are jobs, are there any government training schemes?
Does the government do anything at all to alleviate the problem?

When did this become the governments job?
Most choose to live there to be close to Mexico.
A new software program we are reviewing here, our branch in Wyoming wants to know if it does spanish because of the large hispanic population there. Seems that those folks moved without government assistance.

When did this become the governments job?
.
When it becomes a problem in the first place

Most choose to live there to be close to Mexico.
Isn't that because having slipped over the border they haven't ventured any further?

A new software program we are reviewing here, our branch in Wyoming wants to know if it does spanish because of the large hispanic population there.
So is this sofware for dealing with benefit claims from mainly Hispanics?

When did this become the governments job?
When it becomes a problem in the first place

That does not mean it is a government problem. Maybe in those backward countries like Europe and such, but in the forward thinking coutries it is recongnised after you grow up you have to take some responsability yourself, Mom and Dad are gone and government is not suppose to replace them.

That does not mean it is a government problem. .
Yes it does because the alternative is a lynch mob driven along by an hysterical populace

Yes it does because the alternative is a lynch mob driven along by an hysterical populace
Lynch Mob?
Hysterical Populance?

Damn, had I know you were just going to make s**t up out of the blue, akin to pulling it out your A#& I would have brought my PMS inflicted, sleep deprived, 13 your old daughter in to talk to you on your level.
:eek:

Lynch Mob?
Hysterical Populance?

Damn, had I know you were just going to make s**t up out of the blue, akin to pulling it out your A#& I would have brought my PMS inflicted, sleep deprived, 13 your old daughter in to talk to you on your level.
:eek:
Well if it isn't a lynch mob mentality and if there is such a problem with Hispanics living on the border why does your government not do anything about it, or is it because that according to you the government serves no useful purpose anyway since it's all down to the individual?
You didn't answer my question regarding your DB by the way, and is your daughter right wing too?

I recall going to a big grocery store near the Miami airport a few years ago where the produce was labelled in Spanish and, too, the checkout clerk asked for my money in Spanish.

Regards,
Tim
Go to Spanish Harlem in New York or the Spanish part of Soho (with your bodyguard). If you sneeze near to an older person they are more than likely to say bless you in Spanish. Because they are too superstitious to let it go and their English might not be that good. This of course is a generalisation but it does work quite well. :D

1 in 7 of the American population is Hispanic, in order to lay claim to the charge that they all live on benefits would mean that the entire unemployed of America are Hispanic.

You can't really generalize by that either. You have to differentiate between those of Hispanic origin who have chosen to become U.S. citizens and those who are in the country illegally. Those who become U.S. citizens are more likely to make an effort to assimilate and hold down decent jobs than those who are here illegally waiting for a handout. I don't know all the ins and outs of this argument which is why I haven't posted sooner, but I know you can't make a blanket statement like that. My husband's mother is of Mexican descent. Her parents (my husband's grandparents) moved to Texas from Mexico and didn't speak any English, or at least very little. But they became citizens and did their best to adjust to life here in the U.S., work, and raise their kids (all 13 of them, whew!) to the best of their ability. Their kids (mother-in-law included) all grew up speaking both Spanish and English and have been decent people. The ones who cross the border illegally and make no effort to adjust to our culture but want everyone else in the country to adjust to theirs are more likely to be the ones causing the majority of the problems discussed in this thread.

Why do you suppose people in our country are advocating changing government documents to be in Spanish as well as English?

States are being sued for it, the general population disagrees with it, yet it continues.

Who are these people? Certainly, you would expect a more thought out response from the Hispanic intelligentsia, but they are some of the most ardent supporters. You would think the Spanish speaking politicians would get on a “learn English” band wagon, but none has materialized...


You might be interested in this link Mr. Sanders:

http://www.minutemanhq.com/hq/mmpledge.php I say get control of the borders.

despite welsh ancestory I cannot think what else Wales is noted for :rolleyes:

Brian


What about the Queen's Corgis (with docked tails)

Go to Spanish Harlem in New York or the Spanish part of Soho (with your bodyguard)... If you sneeze near to an older person they are more than likely to say bless you in Spanish. Because they are too superstitious to let it go and their English might not be that good. This of course is a generalisation but it does work quite well. :D

Ah, yes -- I had a memorable, all English, sneezeless night in Soho once upon a time...

Regards,
Tim

have to wonder how much of singling out a specific race for this claim is actually warranted and how much is a myth perpetrated and fuelled by a populist right wing press. Unfortunately, it is a single race that is causing most of the problem because those are the people who continue, at the rate of 3 million a year, to invade my country.

Believe me; I understand why they want to leave Mexico. And I sympathize. But, the reason that they come here instead of your country is proximity coupled with the fact that in my country, big business has our congress bamboozled into thinking that there is a labor shortage. You continually hear our great leader espousing the opinion that the jobs that the illegals take are the jobs that Americans won't take. What is NOT said is that real wages in the US are in a decline and the decline is fueled by the lowest end jobs filled by illegals at the bottom along with the high end jobs filled by cheap foreign labor (legal visas) in the high end jobs. There is a 10% unemployment rate among tech workers and yet our Congress is currently considering a bill to allow an additional 60,000 H1b visas to import more tech workers from low wage countries. Do you think the high unemployment is caused because Americans don’t know how to program or American programmers are unwilling to work for $60,000 per year, or because too many low wage workers are imported each year? I can relate stories from personal friends who where laid off from their jobs, not because the company was downsizing, not because they weren’t doing their jobs, but because their employer wanted to reduce its costs and so were replacing all existing employees with cheaper foreign labor. And to add insult to injury, they were forced to train their replacements to get their severance pay!!!! This is a big win for the company. They get competent workers (although unfamiliar with the business, it is cheap enough to hire several) who save them 60% on wages PLUS 100% on benefits!

Yes it is true, Americans don't want those jobs at the salary now being offered. Would you be willing to take a 60% wage cut along with a 100% benefits cut. I think not. If the jobs paid a living wage by American standards (after all, the workers have to "live" in America), Americans and legal immigrants would take them. They wouldn't need to resort to hiring illegals or importing cheap legal labor or exporting the jobs entirely. Not too many years ago, hotel housekeepers spoke English as did busboys and Burger King employees and the programmers who worked for me. So don’t tell me Americans wouldn’t take those jobs. This is resulting in growing unemployment among Americans and legal immigrants and continued exploitation of the illegals. It IS exploitation. Since they are illegal they have no recourse, no higher authority to complain to, little opportunity to change jobs. They can’t complain about working conditions. We are going back to the days when you owed your soul to the company store. Read John Steinbeck’s “The Grapes of Wrath” or Upton Sinclair’s “The Jungle” to help you remember what life was like for the poorest Americans in the US in the early part of the 20th century.

We have a rapidly growing underclass of single Hispanic males. Since they are illegal, they are most likely separated from their families. Crime among them is increasing (no surprise here). They are not “living” here; they are “existing”; sending every spare penny home to support their families. This is a heart wrenching situation and it needs to be stopped. And speaking of the money they send home, it is the largest source of foreign exchange that Mexico has and amounts to some $20 billion each year. What does that tell you? It tells you that not only US big business but also the Mexican government has a vested interest in the status quo.

NAFTA which was heralded 10 years ago as the “answer” was supposed to help Mexican workers and the Mexican economy by enabling American companies to cheaply establish factories in Mexico. Instead, it depressed wages in Mexico further because there was so much competition for the jobs that wages dropped.

The rebuilding of New Orleans is another government fiasco. It frightens me to be on the same side of any argument as Jesse Jackson but I happen to agree that New Orleans should be rebuilt by former residents and local companies as much as possible. Instead, our great leader waived some federal law that required companies to pay prevailing wages in situations like this. They are also waiving any penalties for companies who hire illegals, not that any penalties would have been imposed anyway. This law was a way to prevent profiteering in disaster recovery. But it was repealed so instead of local workers and local companies getting the contracts for the cleanup and rebuilding, large non-local corporations were given no-bid contracts and are currently advertising in Mexico and other depressed countries for workers. This week in the news CNN was talking about 70 American electricians who were working on rebuilding a government installation who were let go and replaced with non-English speaking workers.

I don’t know what the answer is but it is NOT amnesty. We tried that already. It only encouraged more illegal immigration. I object to rewarding people who have broken the law. Plus, legalizing the 20,000,000 currently here also results in opening the door for millions more family members so the number could easily double.

I would very much like to save the world but realistically, I can’t. I do what I can. I contribute to charities, I volunteer my time but I am not willing to give up my life. It has to stop somewhere. We can only absorb so many immigrants at a time and at the moment we are being overrun. It is creating serious social issues. The American people are looking like the bad guys because we are finally standing up and objecting. I say enough is enough. We must secure our borders. I am very sorry to have to do this. Part of what made America is being lost in this action but to not do so ensures its loss also. Once the borders are secure, we can talk about a guest worker program and a gradual repatriation of all people here illegally. They cannot be rewarded for breaking the law. The law that fines companies for hiring illegals must be strengthened and enforced. It must cost a company as much to hire an illegal as it would to hire an American or legal immigrant.

Occasional ranting helps but I also regularly send emails to my representatives telling them where I stand. Do the rest of you do anything?

Yes thank you, I understand, we face the same problems here but obviously on a smaller scale, I did ask what the government was doing about it and you've now answered, nothing.
We're told by our glorious leader pretty much the same tripe, I don't wish ill of those seeking a better future but we simply don't have the room, the island's overcrowded now.

Ah, yes -- I had a memorable, all English, sneezeless night in Soho once upon a time...

Regards,
Tim
Well I had a memorable, all English, sleepless night in Soho once upon a time too, just in a different country :D

I think Pat echoes the sentiments of most Americans.
One of the most important facts left out in Pats writings is the larger problem of the trade deficit with China. It’s not 20 billion per year it 600 billion.


The problem actually has several roots. Not all of which are political in nature. It started about 30 years ago when the international movement of money grew at an unprecedented rate. This was facilitated by the maturing of the major economic powerhouses like
Germany, Japan, and the US.

Once the western world had finished paying for WWII either by the end of reconstruction or the satisfaction of the debts, the increased world capital needed new places to go to realize the type of growth it had been experiencing since the end of the war. The only places where this kind of growth could be realized were in developing countries.

This started the massive redistribution of capital that created the growth in the Far East. Latin America was mostly left out of this investment due to corruption, and cultural issues.

Another factor in the decision to invest in China was to make them more western and by doing so, making it less likely they would rise up to start a global conflict. I’m not sure that will have the desired effect but that a discussion for another thread.

That’s the money side of it. Another major factor was that all this Latino corruption, and lack of investment, was exacerbated by high birth rate and improved life spans which created growth of population in excess of economic growth, making upward mobility an almost impossible dream.

This is the scenario we face now not from increased birth rate but because of immigration. Our population growth at the low end of the economic pool is really one of the biggest problems America faces over the next 25 years or so. If we don’t all get together and fix it now I think our future as one of the World's leading economies is in grave jeopardy.

The answer is clear. While we still have the financial might we should force the Latin American countries to clean up their acts, end corruption and make it safer to invest in their countries.

Once progress is made in this area we should invest heavily. This would do several things. First it would redirect resources to Latino countries improving their way of life and increasing employment. Second it would make it less attractive to migrate to the US. Given a choice people will work closer to home rather that farther.

Over time as the industrial base grows these countries will have developing markets for higher end American made products, such as airplanes, trains, and power plants.


Once the middle class starts to evolve they will come here as tourist bringing some of the money back.

The world will soon discover that the global economy is ravaging the middle class and that the standard the middle class is measured by will be averaged lower by the inclusion of so many workers willing to work at below living wages.

In short, the way I see it, is that eventually we will not be in a global economy as such, but more of a regional one. Where free trade between the major regions will be tariffed more than now, to protect workers within the regions.

The now nearly defunct European Union is the prototype of the economies of the 21st century. Once they have worked out the problems of balancing national pride with survival in the global trade circus, I think Europe will offer a model to emulate.

NAFTA or a derivation still has potential to accomplish this but in our current obsession with terrorism and “family values” there doesn’t seem to be the political will to make it flourish.

More on the actual language issue in my upcoming opinion.

The problem is not that they're doing nothing. It is that they are actively working at cross purposes to what is ultimately good for the country. All we hear is "global economy this and global economy that". The bottom line is simply profit. As much as I am against war, I find it absolutely terrifying that our manufacturing base can't keep our soldiers in Iraq supplied with ammo. We need to import it from France. Our fabric and clothing industry is almost gone. I can't even find made in the US garments any more. If I need something new, I am forced to contribute to this madness. I flatly refuse to shop at Walmart. The shirts for our border patrol agents are made in Mexico! I went shopping for a new washer/dryer recently - I couldn't find any made in the US so I left. I'll limp along with my 15-year old ones for another year. We are rapidly building a middle class in China and India while pushing our own middle class into poverty.

jsanders makes a good point about Latin America. I was originally for NAFTA because it sounded like it would be good for development there.

The corruption in Latin America is peanuts compared to what we're seeing in China. They are ripping us off left and right. Copyright/shmoppyright. It doesn't stop them. Look what they did to Clinton's book. That made the news but we don't hear about all the other copyright infringments. Same thing with patents. If it's a good idea, they copy it. There will come a time in the not too distant future when China has strengthened its middle class sufficiently that they'll start nationalizing American assets. We'll still have to buy from them at least for the amount of time it would take to reestablish various industries here. But it won't matter because they still have their own people who can now afford the products they are making and they still have the rest of the world who will still need to buy from them.

Make an effort to buy American. Even if you can't, at least make the retail stores know you want to. Ask to see American made models first and leave a few stores if they don't have any. And stay away from Walmart.

Well I had a memorable, all English, sleepless night in Soho once upon a time too, just in a different country :D

That's a bit of a coinkydink.

Regards,
Tim

While we still have the financial might we should force the Latin American countries to clean up their acts, end corruption and make it safer to invest in their countries.



.
Mmmmmmmmmm, you mean like your policy in Iraq, and as far as corruption goes isn't this a prime example of the kettle black pot maxim. Perhaps you should be cleaning up your own country first.
As far as the Chinese go I think you'll find that they are investing heavily in the US too.
And as for blaming everybody else for the fall in strength of the dollar it was the war in Nam that destroyed its strength, in fact it's now European and Far Eastern finance that funds your deficit. Of course it's in their interests to do so

The now nearly defunct European Union
Eh? when did it cease? :confused:

Over time as the industrial base grows these countries will have developing markets for higher end American made products, such as airplanes, trains, and power plants.

I'm afraid you'll have to face the fact that as far as reliability goes the Japanese have the march on all of us, you face a long uphill struggle with the fact that for years American companies have simply spent their profits on the good life instead of re-investing, Bush's attempt at banning imports of steel is a prime example of ineptitude and arrogance.
The EU proved that it's not just cheap labour that produces steel at lower prices than the US and reacted accordingly to Bush's attempt at protectionism.
If your industry is to survive it needs to compete on a global market and that means drastic improvements in efficiency, not neccessarily lower wages.
I suspect that Bush's incompetence and flavour with big business is allowing the cheaper option for his buddies via the black market.
I'm sure you can work out why ;)
As far as Minimum wage is concerned big business protested here that it would destroy jobs etc. the exact opposite has happened.
I'm also a little confused as to why you'd rather move the existing middle classes up a level rather than just increasing their numbers and thus creating a more level playing field.
As far as American products go I only have experience of one or two of them, years ago buying a pair of Levis made in the US was like stepping into cardboard, not any more, the last pair I bought was made in Morroco and didn't last any longer than the pair I bought cheaply in the local supermarket.
I'm not prepared to pay the asking price simply for a name that no longer stands for quality :mad:

I'm also a little confused as to why you'd rather move the existing middle classes up a level rather than just increasing their numbers and thus creating a more level playing field.




I think that it’s important that the middle class grows all over the world, the faster the better. My fear here is that the movement of capital is so rapid now days it seams that the non living wage working class is growing faster than the middle class.

As far as the other things on your post we all know all that stuff. Although there are still many things made in the US you don’t see in England. Our cars and trucks have come along way towards bridging the gap to Japanese made quality. And mostly all the cars we drive here are made here even if they have Japanese or in some European name plates. And of course Daimler owns Chrysler (And good for the company as far as I’m concerned)

The thing is we really need to do something about this lowering of wages around the globe. It affects Europe as much as America and many of the European countries are in as dire straights as we are. Germany has high unemployment partly a result of their liberal social policies but mostly because of cheaper labor from the former Soviet countries. I buy tool for my machine shop from China, but when I want to upgrade I buy Polish made stuff. I do have to admit though that the American made micrograin carbide cuttings tools are definitely the best. You just have to pay more for them.

You can't blame Germany's problems on liberal policies, it's far more complicated than that,
a/ it's paying a high price for re-unification and
b/ it's facing difficulties with adjusting to the global market, it's also not prepared to pay the price of adhering to the dogmatic single mindedness of the single currency.
Whilst we may be doing better it's only because the changes required were forced on us by depression.
Most of Europe also faces problems with former S.U. citizens working for lower wages than our equivalent
Now as for reliability of American products I've already mentioned elsewhere that I won't buy Dewalt products anymore
a/ they're just far too expensive and don't last, the last Dewalt Drill I had was on its last legs within a short space of time.
b/ They're an immediate target for thieves over here :mad:
After the last one I had got stolen I bought a Chinese made equivalent for £40, the Dewalt costs over £300 here. It doesn't take a genius to work out that the £40 drill to me makes far more sense economically. I suspect most consumers including those in the US are of the same opinion.

You can't blame Germany's problems on liberal policies, it's far more complicated than that,
a/ it's paying a high price for re-unification and
b/ it's facing difficulties with adjusting to the global market, it's also not prepared to pay the price of adhering to the dogmatic single mindedness of the single currency.
Whilst we may be doing better it's only because the changes required were forced on us by depression.
Most of Europe also faces problems with former S.U. citizens working for lower wages than our equivalent
Now as for reliability of American products I've already mentioned elsewhere that I won't buy Dewalt products anymore
a/ they're just far too expensive and don't last, the last Dewalt Drill I had was on its last legs within a short space of time.
b/ They're an immediate target for thieves over here :mad:
After the last one I had got stolen I bought a Chinese made equivalent for £40, the Dewalt costs over £300 here. It doesn't take a genius to work out that the £40 drill to me makes far more sense economically. I suspect most consumers including those in the US are of the same opinion.

Consumers here like to buy expensive tools but we pay less for them.
Your buying the wrong “American” tools first off DeWalt is made in China now.
Porter Cable, and Milwaukee are the two brands made tough in America. Mostly made for American Industry and construction trades.

I have 6 Porter Cable routers in the shop some of them are quite old. All of them are the same as the day they were bought, except for scratches and such.

DeWalt is made in China now.

Thats as maybe but they're still charging American prices the same as Levi :mad:

Why don’t we start a home improvement thread? I want to keep this one going in the right direction.

Make an effort to buy American. Even if you can't, at least make the retail stores know you want to. Ask to see American made models first and leave a few stores if they don't have any

It's all 'bout simple economical rules Pat.
We simply can't compete with labor rates and productivity and not even with quality of goods provided by the new booming economical hot spots.
In fact, a mass refusal to buy any foreign produced goods would end in a disastrous fall down of your countries economics.

Most people will go for the most reasonable prices and give a damn where the product would've been produced, as it has been since the first day men came around :D

Better hugely invest in the new booming hot spots so you do have a considerable saying on how "they" operate on "your" market.

Apart from that, you'll not be able to prevent China becoming one of the main market leaders, or better the market leader.

RV

Americans spend over $1000 apiece at Wal-Mart each year. Only the upper middle class and above can afford to shop other places for the same stuff.

The rub, is that the very people that shop there are the ones paying the price.

I hire the Spanish guys myself to do menial and some not so menial jobs at my small business. I could not compete with the people that do it, if I didn’t.

But the language thing is something we need to correct or we will loose something more important than preeminence in the world economy, we will loose the culture of can do and the dream of a better life for our children.

I hire the Spanish guys myself to do menial and some not so menial jobs at my small business.

.
Do they speak Spanish?

I could not compete with the people that do it, if I didn’t.
If you can't compete then you're using inefficient methodology, you need to invest for the future.
I mean for starters you could do one of those menial tasks yourself instead of spending so much time here, scratch one softop :cool:

Thats as maybe but they're still charging American prices the same as Levi That's the rub. Companies SAY they need to lower the cost of doing business but what do they do with the money they save? They use it to increase profits thereby giving their top level management larger bonuses. Where do profits go? Who knows. They are certainly not reinvesting in their American plants to keep them profitable. They are taking the money offshore and building facilities in places where it is cheaper to do business so they can make even higher profits.

A major American auto parts manufacturer just filed for bancrupcy protection a few weeks ago. They said they needed to pay their non-management workers 60% less but they were going to increase their management salaries. I'm wondering who got the company in financial dificulty in the beginning and why are those people being rewarded?

The American public has no say over how corporations spend their money but Congress generally rewards them for spending it overseas when they should be rewarding them for spending it at home.

The Buy Americian suggestion was directed at Americans. For the rest of the world, buy whatever makes sense. Since there are a number of products that no longer seem to be made in the US, when I have to break down and buy one, I will buy one from a foreign company. I will not reward Maytag or any other US "in name only" company with my business. If I have to buy a foreign made product, I will buy it from a foreign company!

Thought I add a new twist, more on the cost of illegal aliens.

Everyone is always talking about the health care cost and the social cost of having such a large population of illegal immigrants. But one that is not often mentioned is the disproportionate cost to funding ratio on public schools.

Many, if not most, illegal aliens rent a single family home and have several families living in them, as much as 10 or 12 kids or even more. The economics dictate this arrangement.

As you all know in America, public schools are funded by assessments on real-estate. So a normal American family pays the taxes on one American dwelling and that establishes the ratio of cost per student per household. Now people without children pay anyway but we all benefited one way or another from this program.

But for the illegals, the dynamics are much different. The school system is educating multiple families on the taxes collected from a single dwelling. In addition to this, these students require special attention. They must have Spanish speaking teacher to accommodate them.

Fortunately this immigration problem is being raised in our current gubernatorial races

I've not said anything on this topic so far (at least I don't think I have), so I'm just going to add this:

I live and work in downtown Chicago. Granted, the situation regarding illegal immigrants in Illinois is vastly different than in Texas, BUT...

...every day I encounter at least a half dozen panhandlers. When I'm walking to work, going to lunch, going to dinner, stepping out in front of my bulding. They're everywhere. In my two years living here (not to mention travel to other cities), I've seen about 3-4 different white panhandlers, dozens of black ones, but not one single latino. Ever.

In a discussion about whether an entire demographic is a drain on society or not, I think it's an interesting observation.

There is a flavour of hypocrisy to some of the replies in this thread.

The West particularly the US has championed free market economics across the world. This has more often than not benefited rich countries who can use there greater economic leverage to prevent fair competion. A good example are the massive European and US farm subsidies which have made it extremely difficult for poor countries to compete on a level playing field even though their produce is cheaper at source.

There are no complaints when the system is functioning as intended i.e. when it allows unfair advantage in the global market; so how can complaints be justified when companies use the system to reduce overheads to make greater profit.

It's free market capaitalist economics in action a system of our own creation. As rich nations we can either choose to take the rough with the smooth or divise an alternative.
If we will not allow poor countries to be protectionist about their markets we cannot justify protectionism for ourselves.

If you want to protect your jobs from cheap foreign labour or cheap Chinese imports then the only logical alternative is to cease trading with other countries and rescind the global free trade agreements, close the borders and practice isolationism. Logical yes, viable No.

TS

There is a flavour of hypocrisy to some of the replies in this thread.

The West particularly the US has championed free market economics across the world. This has more often than not benefited rich countries who can use there greater economic leverage to prevent fair competion. A good example are the massive European and US farm subsidies which have made it extremely difficult for poor countries to compete on a level playing field even though their produce is cheaper at source.

There are no complaints when the system is functioning as intended i.e. when it allows unfair advantage in the global market; so how can complaints be justified when companies use the system to reduce overheads to make greater profit.

It's free market capaitalist economics in action a system of our own creation. As rich nations we can either choose to take the rough with the smooth or divise an alternative.
If we will not allow poor countries to be protectionist about their markets we cannot justify protectionism for ourselves.

If you want to protect your jobs from cheap foreign labour or cheap Chinese imports then the only logical alternative is to cease trading with other countries and rescind the global free trade agreements, close the borders and practice isolationism. Logical yes, viable No.

TS

That's an extreme oversimplification.

The people don’t want illegal immigration large corporations do.

Our government is being run by these same corporations. The distress you hear here is an attempt at voicing our views to get more people involved in the process of reacquiring our country.

This unabated and almost unregulated global trade is lowering the standard of living for Americans and Western Europeans alike. And all the while international companies continue to get a higher and higher percentage of the wealth.

No one says we need to stop using immigrants to provide the work force for the low paid jobs. We’re simply saying they should learn English and pay taxes. The taxes part is the fault of the corporation run government, not the immigrants themselves. Even the language part is partially because the lack of will to force change is dominated by Uncle/Big Business.

What's a panhandler? :confused:

What's a panhandler? :confused:
Street Begger

I've not said anything on this topic so far (at least I don't think I have), so I'm just going to add this:

I live and work in downtown Chicago. Granted, the situation regarding illegal immigrants in Illinois is vastly different than in Texas, BUT...

...every day I encounter at least a half dozen panhandlers. When I'm walking to work, going to lunch, going to dinner, stepping out in front of my bulding. They're everywhere. In my two years living here (not to mention travel to other cities), I've seen about 3-4 different white panhandlers, dozens of black ones, but not one single latino. Ever.

In a discussion about whether an entire demographic is a drain on society or not, I think it's an interesting observation.


The majority come here to work.

The system is flawed.

The employers get the benefits, while the middle class pays the price.

The society suffers when we are forced to adapt their language, instead of vice versa.
The country suffers when immigrants aren’t required to learn the basis for our freedoms. These are new developments in America, previous generations of immigrants assimilated joyfully into the society. This latest wave is trying to bring theirs here.

Can you blame them we don’t force them to adapt, we actually alienate them by not requiring them to adapt.

It’s a double edged sword.

You guys have been missing my insightful repartees, haven’t you?

That's an extreme oversimplification.

The people don’t want illegal immigration large corporations do.

Our government is being run by these same corporations. The distress you hear here is an attempt at voicing our views to get more people involved in the process of reacquiring our country.

This unabated and almost unregulated global trade is lowering the standard of living for Americans and Western Europeans alike. And all the while international companies continue to get a higher and higher percentage of the wealth.

No one says we need to stop using immigrants to provide the work force for the low paid jobs. We’re simply saying they should learn English and pay taxes. The taxes part is the fault of the corporation run government, not the immigrants themselves. Even the language part is partially because the lack of will to force change is dominated by Uncle/Big Business.

Firstly I think any discourse on this subject is going to be a simplification. viz your second paragraph, This unabated...... But i'd like to think its a masterly summing up :D [Joke]

Secondly the US has the biggest % of private citizens investing in the stock market of any country. Unless you withdraw support for companies who practice these methods then they will continue to use them. The benefits these investors see are a direct consequence of the practices of these companies. But of course that will never actually happen as people are very good proposing sacrifices on the behalf of others but do little when their own pocket might suffer.

The fact is countries including the US continue to support such practices by voting for the proponents of them. If your government is run by big business and it's influence is malign then why support them? We often hear people say i dislike policy x but it's such a small issue i still feel i can support the party. Well this isn't a small issue. Economic competence is a fundamental election winning issue -well here it is - yet you continue to vote for people who you are arguing are give your jobs away, diluting your culture and lowering your standard of living. Why?

TS

The employers get the benefits, while the middle class pays the price.
If there were no illegal workers, wouldn't the middle class also pay higher prices on goods and services these businesses provide?

If there were no illegal workers, wouldn't the middle class also pay higher prices on goods and services these businesses provide?

Not really because the savings from using illegal aliens goes to the bottom line, and less to lower pricing.

The cheep imports actually do help the working class, in that it provides lower prices. But it is at the expense of adding more people to the lower wage class. Wal-Mart displaces small businesses that employ people at middle class pay and hires foreigners at lower than living wages.

I'll buy that ;)

But it is at the expense of adding more people to the lower wage class. Wal-Mart displaces small businesses that employ people at middle class pay and hires foreigners at lower than living wages.
Don't you have a minimum wage over there?

We have a minimum wage law but illegal aliens hardly have any recourse. We also have a president wo saw fit to dispense with minimum wage laws in the aftermath of Katrina. So, instead of New Orleans residents and local companies being employeed to rebuild their distroyed city, out of state companies are importing illegal aliens to do the work for slave wages. They are even advertising in Mexico and Central America. No papers are required and wages are low but the wages are still enough to attract more people. Especially with the potential of an amnesty.

We have a minimum wage law but illegal aliens hardly have any recourse. We also has a president wo saw fit to dispense with minimum wage laws in the aftermath of Katrina. So, instead of New Orleans residents and local companies being employeed to rebuild their distroyed city, out of state companies are importing illegal aliens to do the work for slave wages. They are even advertising in Mexico and Central America. No papers are required and wages are low but the wages are still enough to attract more people. Especially with the potential of an amnesty.

It's interesting that you mention Katrina. In the Katrina thread there were advocates for the view that many of the victims were people unwilling to help themselves. We were told that they had become dependant on a culture of welfare and expected the government(s) to bail them out of the crisis. If this point of view is correct then surely these are the very Americans who are refusing the jobs that are being given to the Mexican immigrants?


TS

Not really because the savings from using illegal aliens goes to the bottom line, and less to lower pricing.

The cheep imports actually do help the working class, in that it provides lower prices. But it is at the expense of adding more people to the lower wage class. Wal-Mart displaces small businesses that employ people at middle class pay and hires foreigners at lower than living wages.


Are not the middle classes primarily the supporters of a government who's policies and stance towards big business create this situation. Is it not also the case that the Middle class are the primary investors with both personal and pension investments in these companies stock?

TS