So, the first major decision by the current Pontiff is that gays can't become priests but ex-gays (whatever that is supposed to mean) can be priests.

Two questions:

Since they have stated that a man can become a priest provided he has not had homosexual tendencies in the last three years, are they actually misunderstanding homosexuality as being some internal switch that you can switch on and off at will?
Why would someone want to hide their (homo)sexuality to become part of a system that, by all accounts, excludes them?

So, the first major decision by the current Pontiff is that gays can't become priests but ex-gays (whatever that is supposed to mean) can be priests.

Two questions:

Since they have stated that a man can become a priest provided he has not had homosexual tendencies in the last three years, are they actually misunderstanding homosexuality as being some internal switch that you can switch on and off at will?
Why would someone want to hide their (homo)sexuality to become part of a system that, by all accounts, excludes them?


They don't think it's a switch they can turn on and off. They think that it's a mental disorder that can be "corrected" with therapy and counceling. This is why they include ex-gays in their debate as they believe the ex-gays were never actually gay to begin with, just sick.

That also answers part II. If you are bred to believe that your homosexuality you experienced was an illness rather than a choice, then you can be led to believe you are "cured," so you no longer believe you ever actually were gay, just ill, thus not really hiding your homosexuality, because you don't believe you ever were.

Perhaps if they agree to stop wearing condoms they'll be allowed in:D
pity they haven't banned child abuse by some of the priesthood:rolleyes:

And why isn't that abuse considered homosexuality. Wasn't most (all?) of the abuse done to males? It is pretty sad in this day and age as a human race in the wake of science when we still believe in concepts such as religion and not giving everyone equal rights. When our churches consider homosexuality a greater crime against "god" than child abuse, even though the bible clearly states thou shalt not judge. And when our legal system gives a person who downloads copies of recorded movies online harsher penalties than someone who commits rape, grand theft, or even murder in some instances. It's a shame. :(

And when our legal system gives a person who downloads copies of recorded movies online harsher penalties than someone who commits rape, grand theft, or even murder in some instances. It's a shame. :(
That's because we're ruled by money these days, if you steal millions from a bank you'll get longer inside than if you mugged an elderly lady, it's not a shame, it's bloody criminal:mad:

Is there a theme to this thread or is it just for raving?

So, the first major decision by the current Pontiff is that gays can't become priests but ex-gays (whatever that is supposed to mean) can be priests.



Arn't most of the RC priests gay anyway? so what happens there then?

Col

They don't think it's a switch they can turn on and off. They think that it's a mental disorder that can be "corrected" with therapy and counceling. This is why they include ex-gays in their debate as they believe the ex-gays were never actually gay to begin with, just sick.

That also answers part II. If you are bred to believe that your homosexuality you experienced was an illness rather than a choice, then you can be led to believe you are "cured," so you no longer believe you ever actually were gay, just ill, thus not really hiding your homosexuality, because you don't believe you ever were.


So how would you explain why a person engages in homosexual behavior? Would you say they were born with it, similar to say like... maybe they were born with blue eyes? Then maybe it simply takes a while for it to surface in some/most cases?
:confused:

As the RC priesthood is supposed to be celibate and single I can't see it makes any difference whether they are gay or straight. However, from a political point of view having people wishing to join who claim to have been cured furthers their agenda for the idea that it is a mental condition.

Its pretty simple -

Catholic Priests should not be putting their todgers up any front or back passages regardless of the age of the passages owner.


Having in the past put your todger up a front or back passage does not bar you from becoming a priest however, as long as the owner is consenting and of a certain age.


Whats the problem?

So how would you explain why a person engages in homosexual behavior? Would you say they were born with it, similar to say like... maybe they were born with blue eyes? Then maybe it simply takes a while for it to surface in some/most cases?
:confused:

You are certainly not born with it. It all depends on what you find "attractive" emotionally.and only sometimes physically. Are you saying you agree that it's a disease that needs to be treated? What about those who are not attracted to anyone and just wish to say alone, are they sick too?

Who gives a frock what men in frocks think anyway? :confused:

You are certainly not born with it...

So if you are not born with innate homosexual desires, is the desire acquired?

So if you are Bi, what does that mean? I see it has having LOTS of fun. *grins*

You are certainly not born with it. It all depends on what you find "attractive" emotionally.and only sometimes physically. Are you saying you agree that it's a disease that needs to be treated? What about those who are not attracted to anyone and just wish to say alone, are they sick too?


Some people say they are born that way. I'm not convinced one way or the other, maybe it's different for different people. I do personally know someone who is straight but had many gay friends she hung out with all the time and after being immersed in the lifestyle for a while began to have tendencies towards it as well, which disappeared when she stopped hanging with those friends. I'm sure that's not the case for everyone, but I can see both sides of the argument. Maybe some people are born with those tendencies and other people just make those choices. Perhaps other people still have fallen into that simply because of environment. I don't really know, but maybe for some of those people they can be "cured", if that's what you really want to call it. I wouldn't really think of it as a disease myself, but a choice about your lifestyle. It seems to me that people who are "cured" have to WANT to make the change, just as someone who wants to quit smoking or doing drugs or lose weight or whatever.

Being a Christian but not a Catholic about the only thing I can say about the priesthood is that it seems to me like they should be at least as concerned about what their current priests are doing as they are about who they are or aren't going to ordain in the future. I'm sure there are many more honorable priests than there are bad ones, but it seems like all you ever hear about is negative stuff. Maybe there is someone here who is Catholic that can shed some light on that?

So if you are Bi, what does that mean? I see it has having LOTS of fun. *grins*
You're just greedy:D

You're just greedy:D

:p :o

Greed can be good!

I think before we decide whether or not homosexuality is something that you are born with, you have to decide what the definition of homosexuality is. Some dictionaries describe a homosexual as someone who is physically attracted to someone of the same sex, while others state that the definition is someone who is emotionally attracted to someone of the same sex. Another definition even states that someone has to have physical sex with the other person in order for them to be a homosexual. I tend to prefer the psychological and emotional attraction definition more than the others.

This would mean that you are not a homosexual if you just have physical experiences with someone of the same sex, but were not actually emotionally attracted to them. This seems to happen more for females than males, where they may have a sexual experience with another female, but they would never actually date one, and in some instances (and more instances if it were up to most guys) were even with a guy they were dating at the same time.

I think in order to be bisexual, you have to be physically AND emotionally attracted to both sexes. Maybe you've dated people from both planets.

Now, if that's your definition of homosexuality, than no, I don't believe you can be born with it, nor can you be persuaded to be one way or ther other by peer pressure, parents, church groups, etc. I believe that your emotional and physical attraction to one sex or the other comes with growing up, especially during puberty where your hormones start to give you your emotional and physical sex drive. I believe that once you are homosexual or not, and you are truly attracted to one sex or the other, not just "think" you are attracted to them and you KNOW you are, then that's it. You can't be "cured." I believe some people go their whole life without even knowing that they are homosexual (or vice versa), but just know "something" is off about the way they feel.

Some people can be attracted to neither males nor females, but can have physical contact with one or both of them. Where do they fall in the church's decision. And furthermore, how can a priest even be homosexual or not being that they are not supposed to be with ANYONE?

but it seems like all you ever hear about is negative stuff.
Thats always true Cindy in any area - as we've discussed before, in the UK we are led to believe your chances of being shot whilst on holiday in the USA is almost a certainty - at the least you'll be mugged.

Newspapers live and thrive on bad news and negative stuff

Col

..., I don't believe you can be born with it, nor can you be persuaded to be one way or ther other by peer pressure, parents, church groups, etc.

Seems to be a contradiction. Seems it's either in the cards or something has to have an influence to sway a person one way or the other. Wouldn't you say so?

Edit:

Or maybe the fallacy is that there's a tendency to oversimplify. Maybe some people are born with it and some acquire it (The desire to engage in homo sexual behavior). ???

IMO, every one of us is sick.Its just the degree of sickness that matters.This Sickness is just aquired and not born with.Some are GAY,others LESBIANS,others ARE TOO HORNY for anyone,OTHERS are prosties(actually every one is,but ther degree matters),some Musterbate,Some too emotionally and verbally dirty...etc etc.
Hey people come clean before you victimise others.
What we need is to keep on adivising each other to do the right thing.Tell people to put it where it is meant to be and not to forge or have excuses of sickness.I think with that, our world may change otherwise i think we are evolving into chicken.:rolleyes: :

If you don't like the rules don't join the club :)

Peter

IMO, every one of us is sick.Its just the degree of sickness that matters.This Sickness is just aquired and not born with.Some are GAY,others LESBIANS,others ARE TOO HORNY for anyone,OTHERS are prosties(actually every one is,but ther degree matters),some Musterbate,Some too emotionally and verbally dirty...etc etc.
Hey people come clean before you victimise others.
What we need is to keep on adivising each other to do the right thing.Tell people to put it where it is meant to be and not to forge or have excuses of sickness.I think with that, our world may change otherwise i think we are evolving into chicken.:rolleyes: :

So, which one of those "illnesses" are you?

So, which one of those "illnesses" are you?
Which one am I ?:eek:

IMO, every one of us is sick.Its just the degree of sickness that matters.This Sickness is just aquired and not born with.Some are GAY,others LESBIANS,others ARE TOO HORNY for anyone,OTHERS are prosties(actually every one is,but ther degree matters),some Musterbate,Some too emotionally and verbally dirty...etc etc.
Hey people come clean before you victimise others.
What we need is to keep on adivising each other to do the right thing.Tell people to put it where it is meant to be and not to forge or have excuses of sickness.I think with that, our world may change otherwise i think we are evolving into chicken.:rolleyes: :

If you are a 'normal' or 'clean' person, then please,... shoot me. :rolleyes:

Being straight, gay, lesbian, bi, ... It's all in our genes (that's my opinion). I mean, come on, the color of our eyes, hair, our length, etc, etc, is all in there. Then it would seem pretty logical that our 'sexual preference' is also stored there.

The RC and all other crap-religions (I'm an atheist...) preach that god created us and so on. Hey, then he did also create humans that aren't straight... What do you have to say about that?

The problem is that non-straight people are a minority, an deviation to the norm. It seems that it's fun to discriminate minorities... It's sad, but hey, I guess were just a dumb speecies after all...

You really think it's in the genes. Do you think they might find it in our DNA someday?

I'm doubtfull the human genome will ever be completely deceiphered... It's ridiculously simpel (a characterset of only 4 characters, G A T C), but at the same time, infinately complex because of it's incredible length... So the chances that it'll be found are pretty slim...

Although, who knows...

All I know is that I didn't choose to be like this. I just am. Just like I didn't choose my eyecolor, haircolor, length, skincolor and so on.

As for the 'healing of gays': That's brainwashing. They can probably brainwash anyone to believe that they are a chicken. It's shocking to me that parents send their children to such institutions to get better. This destroys them for the rest of their lives... In time, these individuals will have to face the truth.

Seth

When I first started learning about computers they said that computers could never beat a master chess player.

Now it an axiom that no human will ever again beat Big Blue.

So much for faith, huh Seth?

So, which one of those "illnesses" are you?
emotionally dirty and etc etc...:D
Tell me anyone below 35 who i'snt that sick ;)
Hey, then he did also create humans that aren't straight... What do you have to say about that?
Negative.:eek:
If he did so, then they wouldn't be segregated neither would this thread have appeared. However its true that they have been around since the age of time(...even talked about in the OT) and i think its one of the ways the evil one uses to toment powerless us.
Just imagine,some one reads a magazine...or lets say a dictionery and finds out the meaning of homosexuality and how it is done.(....putting it from behind..Right!), then he tries it on his wife, and she says its good for her. Dont you think he becomes brainwashed and joins the cult of those who feel that since everyone has a hole then,every one can have it through there if he chooses.
To me,the levels of emotional dirt are the ones that lead to all this madness.:rolleyes:

...and i think its one of the ways the evil one uses to toment powerless us.

OMG :eek: Listen to yourself! So pathetic... Indeed poor humans. We are living in the age of supercomputers, space-exploration, the f*cking 21th century, and you are still speaking about "the evil one"...

Dude, you probably can't help it because you were raised this way, but long live the civilised Western Europe for shedding themselves of the madness called religion. Brrr, it's frightening that you think so narrow minded.

Every group of minorities that is "segregated" is not created by your god and is evil and dirty per definition.

So, I'll lower my IQ now to start reasoning like you do, and come to the conclusion that:

- People who are born blind, deaf, or with any other handicap are a minority, thus not created by god and these people are EVIL!

- Redheads (people with red hair), are a minority, thus not created by god and : PURE EVIL!

- White people (yeah, that's us) are, globally seen, A MINORITY! OMG, we're all EVIL!!

Okay, enough madness now; Skea, lemme know when you and your fellow-narrow minded believers are gonna start hanging us freaks of nature because we have been seduced by the Evil One, so I can call ET and move to another planet.

Come on, get a life man. Open your eyes and see the real world.

Greetz,

Seth

PS : No hard feelings, I might come on very hard in my choice of words and expressions, but I really can't handle myself in these kinds of discussions.

Nothing like the ravings of a non-believer, religious zealot.

Nothing like the ravings a non-believer, religious zealot.
Can he be saved from hell and damnation? :confused:

mind you, there's nothing like the ravings of a Southern Baptist bible puncher, either:rolleyes:

Just send me your donations and I'll save for him:cool:

No Question Rich, but why would an atheist to be so religious?

And why scream his homosexuality on the roof tops?

Is he looking for a mate?

I’m both a Christian and a heterosexual. But you don’t hear me preaching it to anyone. If anything you have witnessed me using rational thought to propagate my theories.

It seems religious fanatics aren’t limited to Muslim or Christians? By the looks of it, I guess the atheist homosexuals can be pretty darn religious themselves.

This guy; and all zealots are a scary bunch.

: mind you, there's nothing like the ravings of a Southern Baptist bible puncher, either:


Hey Old Man, (I mean that affectionately)
The term is “bible thumper”

Rich as much as you piss me off, you still exhibit qualities that I admire. And even now I see you thinking about what you are saying.

I just get a real bad feeling when atheists are hell bent to disseminate their religion.

This is interesting; I’m actually having a serious repulsion for this character Seth. That’s unusual for me.

Rich as much as you piss me off,.


Only because I have to keep correcting some of your blaring mistakes Joss, now you see I'm not offended by the statement above because I know that deep down the was no malice intended toward me:p I think by the same token you've misunderstood the message that Seth wants to portray here.
He actually makes a fine point about singling out a minority group for discrimination, especially "who's next".
I mean if there is a God then what's it got to do with the Bible punchers who gets married to who, isn't it Gods problem?:confused:
You see America was just shaking off the shackles of discrimination against minorities when along came that ....... liar Bush and whipped up discrimination against a certain group just to get himself elected, who will be next on his hit list.
How can you hold you heads up high and lecture the rest of the world on freedom and justice, I'm sorry to say to so many of our friends over there that you're nowhere near it yourselves yet.
You and I may be at opposite ends of the religious spectrum yet oddly enough we're not that far apart
Sadly the post got lost but Friday gave an exemplary explanation some time ago as to why many Europeans are "Godless" although oddly enough more Christian than some who profess to have the faith. Odd world isn't it

Doesn't the bible say "judge not lest ye be judged?" Or did the Christians throw out that rule along with all the other changes they have made to the "unchangeable" bible?

Or, let ye he who is without sin cast the first stone, but then you can find whatever quote you want depending on the mood from the book of contradictions

Thanks Rich, you got my point.

jsanders : I'm sorry to have repulsed you, I was just defending myself. BTW, it's not like i'm gonna strap bombs around my waist and go blow up myself in a densly-populated region... Finally: I do not preach, I just share my opinion. If you think that's preaching, then please, ignore all my posts then...

And dude: I'm not looking for a freakin' mate, get real... :mad:

Doesn't the bible say "judge not lest ye be judged?" Or did the Christians throw out that rule along with all the other changes they have made to the "unchangeable" bible?

Do you think I'm judging?

Do you think I'm judging?
Bush and Arnie are;)

Bush and Arnie are;)

Who's Arney?

...he becomes brainwashed and joins the cult of those who feel that since everyone has a hole then,every one can have it through there if he chooses.


Are you saying that you have only had sexual encounters in the "conventional" matter?

Do you think I'm judging?

I wasn't referring to your post.

Are you saying that you have only had sexual encounters in the "conventional" matter?
Nah vassago.
Not at all in the conventional matter,but i still dont do it the pro seth_belgium way.;)
OMG Listen to yourself! So pathetic... Indeed poor humans. We are living in the age of supercomputers, space-exploration, the f*cking 21th century, and you are still speaking about "the evil one"...
Seith, may be it happens too much where u live that no one can seem to ever stop it in that its even getting embedded into kids who later grow up and call those who fight for a not-too-bent-world narrow-minded.
About your 21st century. I wonder why people rant too much about machines:confused:
Even Albert Einstein who was a deist like you,existed in the 20th century(...i dont know whether the super-computer existed) and almost came to the edge of knowledge about the universe than any other human, believed that there must be a superior authority to us.And this implies that there must be an opponet with differing views on the other side.Then who are you seith not to believe that there is no evil!

Here is one of his quotes;
All deists agree that nature reveals the existence of God. As Albert Einstein wrote, "My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God."

Who's Arney?
No idea, your brother/sister, I don't know, is it a trick question:confused:

Bush and Arnie are;)
sorry about the spelling

Who's Arnie

Skea: This only prooves that Albert Einstein also made mistakes. ;)

Anyway, this debate could go on forever and ever and we'd still be fighting for our opinion.

I admit I was a bit too harsh to judge you (Yes, I was judging), BUT I'd really like for you to admit to your mistakes to. It's just not nice to condamn me as being evil... It makes me mad when people do that. Doesn't the bible indeed say you shouldn't judge people. According to your beliefs, God will do that.

So lets conclude that I'll have an interesting debate waiting for me on judgement day... ;)

For me however, this discussion is over. My religion is opposed to fighting... :)

Seth

My religion is opposed to fighting... :)


Thats a novelty. . . . . . . It must be a rare one then - it can't be one of the mainstream ones;) they all love a good scrap and a nice bloody war

Col

I admit I was a bit too harsh to judge you (Yes, I was judging), BUT I'd really like for you to admit to your mistakes to. It's just not nice to condamn me as being evil... It makes me mad when people do that.

Apology accepted. However, i never condemed you or any minority group as evil, but i just tried to bring to light that acts llike homosexuality are those that another superior force on the other side uses to toment powerless me and you.;)

but i just tried to bring to light that acts llike homosexuality are those that another superior force on the other side uses to toment powerless me and you.;)

How do you know this to be a fact?:confused:

How do you know this to be a fact?:confused:
Why would you think differently?

Why would you think differently?
because I'm educated;)

Ok.pour out what you learnt in public school.

Thats a novelty. . . . . . . It must be a rare one then - it can't be one of the mainstream ones;) they all love a good scrap and a nice bloody war

Col
Well yes Col and a certain Christian country has now decided to bring its unique form of justice to the world by simply blowing up suspected terrorists, nothing like a fair Christian trial eh:rolleyes:

Ok.pour out what you learnt in public school.
I never had the pleasure of public school per se, but I was taught to question and think for myself.
There's a distinct difference between education and brainwashing, most religions rely on the latter

sorry about the spelling

Who's Arnie
Isn't he the Gov. of California

Hi,

Taking this slightly off-topic but i'm always amazed by the ways in which we defend our ways of life particularly using the accusations of bigotry and zealotry.

BBC2 and 4 had a fantastic series written and presented by Jonathan Miller on the birth of atheism. http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/features/atheism.shtml

I watched the whole series and what struck me was the feeling that atheism is in itself a religion it just so happens not to have a God at it's centre rather a principle; that there is no God. Look at the definition;

The doctrine that there is no God or gods.


It is defended as hard as any religion and has devotees who write books - one of my quotes in my sig is from a founding father of atheism who wrote on the subject - defining the the Atheistic principles. It was also interesting to note that the intention of atheism is to define for oneself a moral code. Mr Miller's major failing was his in ability to accept that atheism had it's tainted acolytes - such as Stalin who he freely accepted was a monster - as much as any traditional religion. He saw them as aberations in an otherwise perfect concept - sound familar?

My personal belief is a monsterous person or group will use any and all methods at their disposal to implement their will. That the method be persecution in the name of religion or atheism is not actually important to them it is simply a means to an end.


As for homosexuality. It too has it's preachers and devotees. It too has it's bigots and idolitors and that makes it as human as the next way of life.
Odds are it has a genetic base with environmental variables as does so much of our nature. I doubt whether anyone would choose a lifestyle that attracts so much hostility.

TS

There's a distinct difference between education and brainwashing, most religions rely on the latter
I agree. but don't you think you can think wrong and adamantly stand by your educational thinking!. To me this is brainwashing oneself too.

I agree. but don't you think you can think wrong and adamantly stand by your educational thinking!. To me this is brainwashing oneself too.
No, it's not brainwashing at all, it's arrived at by examining all the facts for oneself and then coming to the only logical conclusion.

And thus they went on arguing untill the end of times... :D

And what "Facts" (as apposed to opinions) did you manage to examine about God(s)
:)

Peter

And what "Facts" (as apposed to opinions) did you manage to examine about God(s)
:)

Peter
those purported to be such in the book of stories

To add on to Bat17, dont forget to give your 'logical' conclusions.

To add on to Bat17, dont forget to give your 'logical' conclusions.
simple, God as a deity doesn't exist

Logic behind it?

Logic behind it?
that it's nothing more than a book of stories intended to strike fear into the hearts of mankind, it's so full of contradiction and falsehood take the great flood as just one instance:rolleyes:

So you think it never happened!....ok. but youve just seen light in 83, how do you know whether it did or did not?

No, it's not brainwashing at all, it's arrived at by examining all the facts for oneself and then coming to the only logical conclusion.


As an inventor, engineer, philosopher, scientist,woodworker, poet, and all around smart guy. Hehehe. I have to respecfully disagree with that assessment Richard. Most of the people involved in the above mentioned crafts, come at it with preconceived ideas of the outcome, which affects the whole process.

And there is no way to completely ignore your past.

And as this thread is so fond of quoting Einstein; remember the observation changes the observed.

Maybe I was right and this thread should have be confined

here (http://www.access-programmers.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=98176)

Maybe I was right and this thread should have be confined

here (http://www.access-programmers.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=98176)


I believe they created this entire section as a place where we could discuss lively topics. Hopefully the delinquent children will make themselves scarce.

This forum was not created for the bashing of any sex, religion, race, sexual preference, hair color, way of life, etc..., It was created for mature and educated debates, not just ignorant opinions. I think it's time we laid some ground rules down.

This forum was not created for the bashing of any sex, religion, race, sexual preference, hair color, way of life, etc..., It was created for mature and educated debates, not just ignorant opinions. I think it's time we laid some ground rules down.

What do you suggest?

Well, what Vassago said seems like a mighty fine rule.

Failure to comply = byebye!

On the other hand, banning doesn't really solve anything. Re-registering is very simpel and only stimulates the weaker minded, so maybe we should just ignore them... :)

She meant the kids (I hope ;))

We weren't bashing, were we? We had a difference of opinion, nothing more.
I was more mad about the fact you said I was scary then because of your ideas.

I guess we're both adult enough to respect each other and each other's opinions, so for me : all is forgotten.

Greetz,

Seth

I think all zealotry is suspect. I hold people of any walk of life or lifestyle in high regard if they are open minded.

History is replete with narrow minded individuals killing for their beliefs. As well as the killing of homosexuals in this country.

None of us are intelligent enough to have conclusive proof, one way, or another, of the existence of God, so why would any of us take such strong stances either for, against, or for methods of worship.

I will always make a stand against closed mindedness. It is one of the great sins in which humans partake.

As an inventor, engineer, philosopher, scientist,woodworker, poet, and all around smart guy. Hehehe. I have to respecfully disagree with that assessment Richard. Most of the people involved in the above mentioned crafts, come at it with preconceived ideas of the outcome, which affects the whole process.

And there is no way to completely ignore your past.

And as this thread is so fond of quoting Einstein; remember the observation changes the observed.
OK then Josey, where did God come from and how long has he been there?

OK then Josey, where did God come from and how long has he been there?


Do you aspire to the Big Bang theory?

Do you aspire to the Big Bang theory?
Ye s

Ye s
So how much does your brain weigh?

Ye s
So how much does your brain weigh?

So how much does your brain weigh?
Irrelevant and please don't post the same question twice

Irrelevant and please don't post the same question twice


Well the relevant part of it is this. Since you’re going to be obtuse; I guess I’ll have to spell it out for you.

If you can formulate thought in that feeble carbon based, mostly empty space, filled with water head of yours, then one can only imagine what kind of entity lived in the pure mass and energy of the prier big bang.

We’ve had this discussion before; I think someone would have a serious lack of imagination, to not be able to concede at least the possibility of that existence.

If you can formulate thought in that feeble carbon based, mostly empty space, filled with water head of yours, then one can only imagine what kind of entity lived in the pure mass and energy of the prier big bang.

.
I've had numerous big bangs jose, which one did you have in mind?

I realise this is leading us extremely far away off-topic, but what the hell...

Forget about me being a zealot (thanks for learning me a new word in English btw ;)), I do respect other people's beliefs. But what I do like to do is to debate with people who believe in God. It's just such a fascinating matter.

The thing with a God-person, or God-like entity, that I don't understand is this:
How can 1 person/being/entity/... create the entire universe (if there is only one, even that isn't sure) with it's billions and billions of galaxies, even more stars in it, countless planets, and at least one of those planets inhabited with countless billions of life-forms.

How did he do it, and why? For his amusement? Because he was bored?

I cannot grasp the fact. The scientist in me just cannot grasp that...

What do I think has caused this? I have to support Rich on this one, I do believe in the Big Bang. For me this means: An infinite amount of matter, pulled together by it's gigantic mass to an infinitely small amount of space (i.e. black holes) exploded in a never-before seen burst of pure energy. Out of that primal energy the first stars formed, rocks colliding with each other formed the first planets. This went on for billions of years.

Then, by pure coincidence, a fluke of nature let's say, one of those planets formed in an orbit around a young star called Sol. The conditions on this planet turned out to be ideal for life to develop. At first as a fragile, very simple organism in the oceans. Later after millions of years of evolution life moved to the land on that planet we call Earth. The rest of the story we know I think...

So that's why I'm having difficulties to believe in a God... In my opinion, religion was created by humans to explain the things they couldn't understand, like thunder, lightning, fire, death, and so on. Later, religion was abused by people with power to control the masses. They started making commandments, laws as you might call them (thy shalt not...).

Everyone is free to believe what they want. But this is my belief. One thing is for sure, when we die, we'll know the answer and know who was right! ;)

If this truely interests you, here is a good read:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0385418868/104-6390420-9160731?v=glance&n=283155

I'm a big fan of Joseph Cambell he did a series on PBS

If this truely interests you, here is a good read:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0385418868/104-6390420-9160731?v=glance&n=283155


Thx! I'll take a look at that.

Do I come across as a "she?"

Do I come across as a "she?"
It's the way you walk

What does it matter / who cares how the universe was created? no-ones going to know for sure so its an unanswerable question.:rolleyes:

Surely, it would be better to focus on the problems currently besetting mankind.

Col

Amen, now brethren, kneel and let us play

Amen, now brethren, kneel and let us play
But dont bend please;)

But dont bend please;)
I can see where you're coming from

Which kind of telescope could that be?

: An infinite amount of matter, pulled together by it's gigantic mass to an infinitely small amount of space (i.e. black holes) exploded in a never-before seen burst of pure energy.
Surley this had to be a finite amount of matter or the would have been no space? and it still begs the question of where the initial matter comes from? spontaneous creation from nothing?

Peter

it still begs the question of where the initial matter comes from? spontaneous creation from nothing?

Peter
using the same criteria, where then did God come from?:confused:

Four Religious Truths:

1. Muslims do not recognize Jews as God's chosen people.

2. Jews do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah.

3. Protestants do not recognize the Pope as the leader of the
Christian World.

4. Baptists do not recognize each other at Hooters.

:cool: :)

each are beyond proof but "Spontaneous Creation" is more scientific the "Godly Creation" :)

Peter

each are beyond proof but "Spontaneous Creation" is more scientific the "Godly Creation" :)

Peter
but spontaneous creation can be seen and thus proven

spontaneous creation can be seen
and who was here at the time of the Big Bang to see it? (apart From God :) )

Peter

and who was here at the time of the Big Bang to see it? (apart From God :) )

Peter
We don't need to see the event to be able to prove it happened, who here saw the Pyramids being built?

Col's right,
We should spend time saving the planet for our offspring, instead of arguing religion.

Big time waste.

Who cares if God exist or not?

Pray to God if you will, and go do something useful.

Surley this had to be a finite amount of matter or the would have been no space? and it still begs the question of where the initial matter comes from? spontaneous creation from nothing?

Peter

Well, then change infinite to "an extremely large amount of".

Where did the initial matter come from : Big Crunch. The expantion of the universe might come to an end one day. When it does, matter will start moving back towards the absolute center of it all, thus creating a new super-singularity. Followed by another Big Bang, and so on...

I believe this continuous movement between big bang and big crunch exists to prevent the universe from dying out. This last thing will happen when the expantion does not stop.

Seth

Well, then change infinite to "an extremely large amount of".

Where did the initial matter come from : Big Crunch. The expantion of the universe might come to an end one day. When it does, matter will start moving back towards the absolute center of it all, thus creating a new super-singularity. Followed by another Big Bang, and so on...

I believe this continuous movement between big bang and big crunch exists to prevent the universe from dying out. This last thing will happen when the expantion does not stop.

Seth

Firstly

At present the scientific data points to the universe expanding till everything is ripped apart. The Universe's expansion is accelerating and it appears that the more it expands the faster it accelerates. As far as we can tell there isn't enought matter in the Universe to retard the acceleration and pull it all back together in the big crunch.

Secondly

I believe this continuous movement between big bang and big crunch exists to prevent the universe from dying out.

Why?

This idea suggests you believe that there is a controlling force that designed this mechanism. That there is a purpose to the Universe and that it cannot be fulfilled with a Universe that dies.
If there is no outside force controlling the development of the Universe or a creator that imbued the Universe with this property at the start then your idea requires the Universe itself is aware of it's state and that the Universe has the ability to order it's physics to prevent it's own destruction. i.e. that it is sentient or at the very least alive.

Fine by me if you believe that but an explanation would be interesting.

TS

who here saw the Pyramids being built?

No one which is why they are still arguing about how they were created :)http://www.geopolymer.org/science_archaeology/pyramids_egypt/

Peter

@Stoat:

-> I thought I read somewhere that it was decellerating... Misinformation on my behalf then. Damned! ;)

-> I would find it logical that the universe would do that continuing movement because in nature, nothing exists without a reason. I'm not saying that it's sentient or alive... Anyway, my theory seems flawed when it's actually increasing in speed of expansion.

No one which is why they are still arguing about how they were created :)http://www.geopolymer.org/science_archaeology/pyramids_egypt/

Peter
How maybe, but not when and why

This idea suggests you believe that there is a controlling force that designed this mechanism. TS
Why, the fact that it didn't behave in the same way this time doesn't mean that it always had to surely. Maybe the crunch just gathered momentum over time

What does it matter / who cares how the universe was created? no-ones going to know for sure so its an unanswerable question.:rolleyes:

Surely, it would be better to focus on the problems currently besetting mankind.

Col
Cheers to that, Col! I applaud you for elegantly reinserting some sanity back into this thread.

I realize the thread has moved on from this, but I'd like to say a few words about the origins of behavior, or in this specific case, homosexuality. I honestly find it almost silly that the nature vs. nurture debate still rages. Since I am neither an expert in psychology nor genetics, feel free to completely ignore my opinion, but I think the answer is fairly obvious: all behavior is determined by the combination of genetics, environment, and choice. There have been volumes of studies that point to genetic causes of behavior and even more that show environmental influences. Choice is the monkey wrench that prevents either side from producing conclusive data. I'd be happy to elaborate if necessary.

Why, the fact that it didn't behave in the same way this time doesn't mean that it always had to surely. Maybe the crunch just gathered momentum over time

I'm not arguing that the Universe cannot have crunched at some point in a past cycle but it isn't crunching now and has non of the characteristics that would allow it to. It's doing the complete opposite with ever increasing enthusiasm. And it wasn't really my question. The Universe is either created from some so far undeterminable physics or by a creator. Seth suggested that there was a mechanism to prevent the Universe from dying. I suggested that in order to prevent death you needed self will. The Universe may have such a mechanism but it can be no more than a product of it's physics and is not designedto prevent death because design implies a designer. Unless of course that's what he was getting at and that's why i asked him. If you don't believe in a designer then the Universe and all it's mechanisms and properties are simply products of this Universe's structure and are without any purpose.

TS

Why, the fact that it didn't behave in the same way this time doesn't mean that it always had to surely. Maybe the crunch just gathered momentum over time

I thought it would have to reduce at each crunch as it would lose energy each time?

Peter

What does it matter / who cares how the universe was created? no-ones going to know for sure so its an unanswerable question.

Surely, it would be better to focus on the problems currently besetting mankind.

Col


Cheers to that, Col! I applaud you for elegantly reinserting some sanity back into this thread.

Not really. Understanding how the Universe was created tells us what it has been, what it is and what it will be. We are a product of the Universe, we live in it and it will effect our continued existance. Just because you can't answer a question doesn't mean it's invalid. The questions that are asked may not lead to the absolute truth but they can tell us a lot about other parts of the bigger question. For example is there a fundamental rule that means we can't produce electricity by nuclear fusion at power station scale. I'd say that is a question that needs answering because people and Governments are banking our futures on it solving the worlds energy needs. Properties of atomic bodies are inherited from the way in which the Universe came into being and so answering questions about the Universe's origins could lead us to the answer. It also might tell us that a blend of cream cheese and sulphur is actually far more effective.

Another example are our brains. Researchers are now suggesting that they work the way they do because they make use of quantum mechanics. Again quantum mechanics is a fundamental property of the Universe and is related to the Universe's start. Reseach in quantum mechanics has told us much about the structure and properties of the Universe and understanding how our brains work is going to be crucial in help people with brain injuries or illness. Is that not a problem that besets mankind?


TS

@Stoat:

-> I thought I read somewhere that it was decellerating... Misinformation on my behalf then. Damned! ;)

-> I would find it logical that the universe would do that continuing movement because in nature, nothing exists without a reason. I'm not saying that it's sentient or alive... Anyway, my theory seems flawed when it's actually increasing in speed of expansion.

As it happens i think that if there is no creator then everything does exist without reason. We read reason into things but in truth things just are. The sky is blue. The cause is interactions between light and gases in our atmosphere but that's just a -poor- description of the physics. There is no reasoning behind blue it just so happens that this is the property of light and gas interaction. Without a creator the Universe is just an engine that proceeds without purpose. It is more accurate to say that nothing exists without a cause. Perhaps i'm just reading to much into your use of the word reason? :D

TS

Not really. [...]
I agree completely. But I also think there is something comical about zealously arguing an unprovable hypothesis (ie., whether God exists; whether the universe has a purpose; where the universe came from; etc.) as if it were fact, which is what the thread had generally become. Col's comment, in my mind, was a way of saying "chill out".

Col's comment, in my mind, was a way of saying "chill out".
Thanks Kraj, or maybe a "get real" comment - lets sort out this planet before we blow it to pieces

As I said ages ago, mankind will destroy mankind - not some big rock from space

Col

Thanks Kraj, or maybe a "get real" comment - lets sort out this planet before we blow it to pieces

As I said ages ago, mankind will destroy mankind - not some big rock from space

Col

It could go either way. We will most likely not destroy the whole of man kind, just the majority.

We will most likely not destroy the whole of man kind, just the majority.
Lucky that I am in a minority then :)

Peter

Lucky that I am in a minority then :)

Peter
Hehe... me too! (unless the republicans get their way :mad: )

It could go either way. We will most likely not destroy the whole of man kind, just the majority.
I think yall' give man way to much credit. As soon as man steps over the line, Mother Nature will put him in his place. About the only thing man can do to really screw things up is a global, massive nuclear war. Short of that Mother Nature wins. And even given that, Mother Nature will win. What maybe thousands of human years to get back, is just a blink in the eye of Mother nature.

I think yall' give man way to much credit. As soon as man steps over the line, Mother Nature will put him in his place. About the only thing man can do to really screw things up is a global, massive nuclear war. Short of that Mother Nature wins. And even given that, Mother Nature will win. What maybe thousands of human years to get back, is just a blink in the eye of Mother nature.



OH!
I was thinking of nature when I made that post. Read my predictions for the next 50 years.