Gun laws do they work (1 Viewer)

KenHigg

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...I also wouldn't be opposed to Law enforced checks to see if the weapon is legal or not. (Taking the guns away from the bad guys).

Really...? Crooks would just find a better way to hide them. We live in a 'create more laws' world oblivious that with every new law we create we have to allocate resources to support it. We're slipping into a black hole were someday we will all be working to fund the rules we've created...
 

ConnorGiles

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Really...? Crooks would just find a better way to hide them. We live in a 'create more laws' world oblivious that with every new law we create we have to allocate resources to support it. We're slipping into a black hole were someday we will all be working to fund the rules we've created...

And I doubt this "new way" would take place the day after the law was put in place. It would take time.

In the time it takes, many illegal weapons can be seized. and Criminals apprehended.

Believe it or not, Many criminals aren't all that bright. Some maybe, but the majority.
 

KenHigg

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So you are proposing that at their discretion, the authorities could demand to come into my home and check to see if my guns were legal? Would they need to obtain a search warrant?
 

ConnorGiles

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So you are proposing that at their discretion, the authorities could demand to come into my home and check to see if my guns were legal? Would they need to obtain a search warrant?

At YOUR discretion. This is only what I said I wouldn't have a problem with. NOT what is going to happen.

When they knock, and ask if it would be okay to check your weapon storage and documents for obtaining the firearm. If you disagree, then they may ask if there would be a better date for them to check.

Upon continuous stalling of the checks with no reasonable excuse, suspicion would be raised and If need be a warrant be obtained - If you have a record of criminal offences, the amount of times you could be able to put off the checks would be reduced. Sounds okay to me, I mean I have nothing to hide. But hey, I'm just a guy from across the pond.
 

KenHigg

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Seems what we have now is better than what you propose. If they think you have illeagal weapons the can get a search warrant and come in when they want -
 

Frothingslosh

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Connor, just as an FYI, most Americans would never agree to police doing random inspections of homes for illegal weapons. It's a due process and right to privacy thing. Even I would be pissed were that to be tried. I would say we'd freak out about random patdowns, too, but NYPD proved that isn't the case. :eek:

Also, before you suggest a registry of some kind, you should be aware that the gun nuts are convinced a gun registry is the final step before the NWO's gestapo shows up, kicks your door down, and takes your guns. (Which is kind of funny, since every legally registered gun's data is stored already.) That absolute refusal to allow a national database is at the heart of the NRA's opposition to smartguns (guns that have biometric sensors and won't fire if the holder isn't the owner), even though there's no need for a registry for those to work.
 

KenHigg

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...Also, before you suggest a registry of some kind, you should be aware that the gun nuts are convinced a gun registry is the final step before the NWO's gestapo shows up, kicks your door down, and takes your guns.

What is a gun nut? How many gun nuts do you know personally? Are there any around here? Is this what they have told you or is this your opinon? Just curious how a gun nut expert thinks...
 

ConnorGiles

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How does one suspect someone has illegal weapons? "I bet he has an Illegal gun or two"? Unless tipped off, they appear to be completely clueless.

The way I propose introduces a polite search and clarification. Can be refused multiple times but when it becomes suspicious and they have reason to believe you're refusing for a reason besides it being a bad time, then a search warrant would probably be the course of action.

Connor, just as an FYI, most Americans would never agree to police doing random inspections of homes for illegal weapons. It's a due process and right to privacy thing. Even I would be pissed were that to be tried. I would say we'd freak out about random patdowns, too, but NYPD proved that isn't the case. :eek:

Also, before you suggest a registry of some kind, you should be aware that the gun nuts are convinced a gun registry is the final step before the NWO's gestapo shows up, kicks your door down, and takes your guns. (Which is kind of funny, since every legally registered gun's data is stored already.) That absolute refusal to allow a national database is at the heart of the NRA's opposition to smartguns (guns that have biometric sensors and won't fire if the holder isn't the owner), even though there's no need for a registry for those to work.

I would also oppose to random pat downs, Unless they have reason to believe I am a threat. If they do believe me to be a threat then from a distance they could tell me the reason why I am being patted down such as there has been a robbery in the area and you match the persons description. Having nothing to hide myself, This wouldn't be a problem.

I understand your point on the Gun registry, I don't see how gun nuts can see Gun Registry and taking them away. In fact its the opposite, You register to get a gun?

But hey, each to their own.

To be honest, I think the Biometric scanners are really not needed. If you are in control of your weapon and it is stored safely and securely then no one but yourself should even be holding the weapon. Yes I understand it would help reduce accidental deaths, But surely there is a more cost effective way? I dread to think of the cost of each biometric scanner on each weapon, let alone all of them! :eek:

But yet again may I stress, I have said that my opinions are coming from a side of the pond without many guns at all. Your side of the pond would obviously see it different than mine as you have lived along side guns most of your lives.
 

KenHigg

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How does one suspect someone has illegal weapons? "I bet he has an Illegal gun or two"? Unless tipped off, they appear to be completely clueless.

This why there is the check and balance of the warrant, they have to convince the judge there may be issues first. I can think of many reasons to think an illegal weapon may be present on a person or in a house...
 

ConnorGiles

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How does one become suspicious of the person in question in the first place?

I can think of many reasons to think an illegal weapon may be present on a person or in a house

List a few please. In relation to my first question.
 

KenHigg

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Really - ?

If I go through a metal detector at the airport and it goes off?
If I'm running from a shooting in an over coat?
etc...
 

ConnorGiles

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Really - ?

If I go through a metal detector at the airport and it goes off?
If I'm running from a shooting in an over coat?
etc...

But yet, you failed to answer becoming suspicious of a person within their own household.

Examples?
 

Frothingslosh

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How does one suspect someone has illegal weapons? "I bet he has an Illegal gun or two"? Unless tipped off, they appear to be completely clueless.

The way I propose introduces a polite search and clarification. Can be refused multiple times but when it becomes suspicious and they have reason to believe you're refusing for a reason besides it being a bad time, then a search warrant would probably be the course of action.

"Your honor, he refused to let me search his home for illegal weapons on three different occasions. If he were a law-abiding citizen, he would have no reason to object to police searching his home, so now we need to search his home to find out what he's hiding."

People attempt this kind of logic all the time: "If you have nothing to hide, then why are you concerned about warrent-less wire taps?" "If you have nothing to hide, then why are you upset I want to pat you down?" "If you have nothing to hide, then you'll have no problem with the government tracking your online activity." "Only people hiding something would say no."

Do you see the problem here?

This is a direct violation of one of the basic premises of American law - that you are innocent until proven guilty. That is ignored often enough as-is; we sure as hell don't need a policy that explicitly equates standing up for your rights with criminal behavior. If the police have reason to suspect you have illegal weapons, they can get a warrant. Otherwise, they can stay the hell out of my home.

I would also oppose to random pat downs, Unless they have reason to believe I am a threat. If they do believe me to be a threat then from a distance they could tell me the reason why I am being patted down such as there has been a robbery in the area and you match the persons description. Having nothing to hide myself, This wouldn't be a problem.

Unfortunately, NYPD actually implemented random pat-downs, called stop-and-frisk, and it was upheld over an NYCLU court case by claiming that it didn't target any individual group. (That was on appeal - the original District Court ruling was that they were unconstitutional, but it was overturned on appeal.) They've since caught a TON of flak, as the patdowns have been used far, far more against minorities than anyone else, well out of proportion to the actual racial distribution in NYC. (In fact, in one year, there were more pat-downs of black people than there were black residents.)

The city is claiming to be in the process of reworking the policy, but at this time the NYPD still overwhelmingly targets blacks and hispanics.

I understand your point on the Gun registry, I don't see how gun nuts can see Gun Registry and taking them away. In fact its the opposite, You register to get a gun?

But hey, each to their own.

To be honest, I think the Biometric scanners are really not needed. If you are in control of your weapon and it is stored safely and securely then no one but yourself should even be holding the weapon. Yes I understand it would help reduce accidental deaths, But surely there is a more cost effective way? I dread to think of the cost of each biometric scanner on each weapon, let alone all of them! :eek:

The biometrics scanners would have two purposes - they would seriously limit accidental deaths, especially kids shooting someone while playing with the guns, and they would make the gun useless if stolen, unless someone found a way to hack the chip, and I guarantee you most folks who steal guns aren't going to be able to hack chips. If they could do that, they'd make WAY more money for way less risk via hacking or legit jobs.

But yet again may I stress, I have said that my opinions are coming from a side of the pond without many guns at all. Your side of the pond would obviously see it different than mine as you have lived along side guns most of your lives.

Fair enough.
 

Frothingslosh

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What is a gun nut? How many gun nuts do you know personally? Are there any around here? Is this what they have told you or is this your opinon? Just curious how a gun nut expert thinks...

If you can't understand a common phrase, perhaps you should get out more.
 

KenHigg

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But yet, you failed to answer becoming suspicious of a person within their own household.

Examples?

Where I appear to have failed is in assuming you could connect the dots, as in my failure to do so with your bable fish comment in the other thread...

ok... so a shooting at school with an illegal gun (casings found). Friends tell the cops a certain kid has that kind of gun. The cops get a warrant to search the kids house...
 

Frothingslosh

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Where I appear to have failed is in assuming you could connect the dots, as in my failure to do so with your bable fish comment in the other thread...

ok... so a shooting at school with an illegal gun (casings found). Friends tell the cops a certain kid has that kind of gun. The cops get a warrant to search the kids house...

To be fair, they've got cause in this particular case whether the gun is illegal or not.
 

ConnorGiles

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"Your honor, he refused to let me search his home for illegal weapons on three different occasions. If he were a law-abiding citizen, he would have no reason to object to police searching his home, so now we need to search his home to find out what he's hiding."

People attempt this kind of logic all the time: "If you have nothing to hide, then why are you concerned about warrent-less wire taps?" "If you have nothing to hide, then why are you upset I want to pat you down?" "If you have nothing to hide, then you'll have no problem with the government tracking your online activity." "Only people hiding something would say no."

Do you see the problem here?

This is a direct violation of one of the basic premises of American law - that you are innocent until proven guilty. That is ignored often enough as-is; we sure as hell don't need a policy that explicitly equates standing up for your rights with criminal behavior. If the police have reason to suspect you have illegal weapons, they can get a warrant. Otherwise, they can stay the hell out of my home.

3 Times is a bit low, I would say around 10-15 separate occasions.

But Fair enough.

Unfortunately, NYPD actually implemented random pat-downs, called stop-and-frisk, and it was upheld over an NYCLU court case by claiming that it didn't target any individual group. (That was on appeal - the original District Court ruling was that they were unconstitutional, but it was overturned on appeal.) They've since caught a TON of flak, as the patdowns have been used far, far more against minorities than anyone else, well out of proportion to the actual racial distribution in NYC. (In fact, in one year, there were more pat-downs of black people than there were black residents.)

The city is claiming to be in the process of reworking the policy, but at this time the NYPD still overwhelmingly targets blacks and hispanics.

I think we agreed somewhere else in this thread, That Racial bias isn't unheard of in the police force. Even over here.

The biometrics scanners would have two purposes - they would seriously limit accidental deaths, especially kids shooting someone while playing with the guns, and they would make the gun useless if stolen, unless someone found a way to hack the chip, and I guarantee you most folks who steal guns aren't going to be able to hack chips. If they could do that, they'd make WAY more money for way less risk via hacking or legit jobs.

All it would take would for someone to crack the code, and distribute it on a massive level (black market ect...). But as you said, Very unlikely. It would probably save a lot more money to be more careful and store safely. But easier said then done I suppose.
 

ConnorGiles

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Where I appear to have failed is in assuming you could connect the dots, as in my failure to do so with your bable fish comment in the other thread...

ok... so a shooting at school with an illegal gun (casings found). Friends tell the cops a certain kid has that kind of gun. The cops get a warrant to search the kids house...

So the shooting would come first?
 

Frothingslosh

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Now you're just nit-picking...

Hey, you give me grief for using what I thought was a universal phrase in the States (You've seriously never heard of 'nut' to refer to an unusually fervent fan?!? Gun nut, health nut, sports nut, etc), I give you grief for a bad example. :D
 
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