Scottish Independence (1 Viewer)

AnthonyGerrard · Sep 11, 2014

Mile-O said:
The only problem there is that there is no DevoMax option on the referendum card and there's not going to be DevoMax after the referendum, since the vague promise of 'more powers' does not constitute DevoMax. Plus, no further referendum to the rest of of the UK on whether they wouldn want to federalise.

True. There's a vague promise Scotland would be better off after independence too.

Celtic and Rangers have been trying to opt into Britain for years?

Mile-O · Sep 11, 2014

AnthonyGerrard said:
True. There's a vague promise Scotland would be better off after independence too.

That's also true. Worth the risk, in my opinion. What would be guaranteed is a government making decisions for its people with its own money; not the pocket money its granted.

Celtic and Rangers have been trying to opt into Britain for years?

I don't think that has any bearing on the subject of Scottish independence.

AnthonyGerrard · Sep 11, 2014

Mile-O said:
That's also true. Worth the risk, in my opinion. What would be guaranteed is a government making decisions for its people with its own money; not the pocket money its granted.

I don't think that has any bearing on the subject of Scottish independence.

Very true - seems the left leaning want that independence. When left leaning is a collective, about working together for everyones benefit.

Like the UK bailing out RBS - which would have wiped Scotland out.

Seems a little perverse. Scotland benefits plenty from the union - as well as losing plenty no doubt.

The Celtic Rangers thing - just one of the obvious examples that being in control of your own affairs in isolation doesn't bring an uplift in quality. The opposite.

LewisCowles-CD2 · Sep 12, 2014

Well I'm all for it, we can still all be friends, but now England wont say Scotland is taking its money and Scotland wont say England is pillaging it's resources, they will both have to get on and have sensible debate. What will be fascinating will be the division of resources, particularly shared resources like soldiers, gas, nuclear power. All in all I cannot see how it could harm anything it just means Westminster (ironically closer to where I live), wont get to make arbitrary decisions about what happens north of the border. My actual only concerns are jingoism on either side, that the UK wont release the reigns that could lead to issues like those in N.Ireland or any potential conflict between the nations...

Mile-O · Sep 15, 2014

AnthonyGerrard said:
Like the UK bailing out RBS - which would have wiped Scotland out.

The UK only bailed out a portion of RBS. The UK portion of bailing out RBS and HBOS was £65b. However, bailouts don't come from where the business is registered, but from where they have economic activity. That's why the US Federal Reserve bailed out RBS and HBOS to the tune of £400b. The Scottish ability to pay would likely have been around 10% of that UK bailout; therefore £6.5b. Not a grand sum, in banking terms, all things considered.

AnthonyGerrard · Sep 15, 2014

Mile-O said:
The UK only bailed out a portion of RBS. The UK portion of bailing out RBS and HBOS was £65b. However, bailouts don't come from where the business is registered, but from where they have economic activity. That's why the US Federal Reserve bailed out RBS and HBOS to the tune of £400b. The Scottish ability to pay would likely have been around 10% of that UK bailout; therefore £6.5b. Not a grand sum, in banking terms, all things considered.

So we'd still have to work together for everyone's benefit? Scotland cant do it on its own. You go from being part of - to being reliant on the UK.

And we go from working with - to potentially just having to bail out Scotland based institutions.

Your proposing seemingly having your central bank and lender of last resort made independent of Scotland, and potentially losing the headquarters of your Scottish based banks.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26531390

Steve R. · Sep 15, 2014

Should Scotland vote for independence; what happens to the Crown? Does Elizabeth remain Queen of Scotland? Would Scotland continue to retain the Monarchy into the future?

PS: Interesting coincidence. Showtime is running the series Outlander. The series takes place in Scotland and does not present the English in a positive manner. For the pro-independent Scots, the series could raise some nationalistic fervor enticing them to get out and vote. I don't know if Outlander is being shown in Scotland. If it is, I wonder whether it could have a marginal effect on the voting considering how close the vote appears to be.

ColinEssex · Sep 15, 2014

I'm not sure anyone south of Hadrians Wall gives a toss what Scotland does or thinks.

Col

Brianwarnock · Sep 15, 2014

ColinEssex said:
I'm not sure anyone south of Hadrians Wall gives a toss what Scotland does or thinks.

Col

I think that you are wrong there Col, I think a lot of people are concerned over the long term effect on the UK.

Brian

Rx_ · Sep 16, 2014

US releases advice to Scottish Voters. Tells what you should know.
Wasn't that "effective partner" line borrowed from that futuristic movie with Tom Cruse where the Aliens were stealing all the water on earth?

Echoing remarks previously made by U.S. President Barack Obama.
"This is a decision for the people of Scotland to make," he said. "We certainly respect the right of individual Scots to make a decision about the -- along these lines.
"But, you know, as the President himself said, we have an interest in seeing the United Kingdom remain strong, robust, united and an effective partner."

Aww snap. Let me understand what Fearless Leader is indicating. If the Scotts go independent, we will do something for the US interest?
Well, since he promised no more boots on the ground of foreign conflicts, does this mean troops will be issued Golf Shoes?

AnthonyGerrard · Sep 17, 2014

Cant help but think they have to be right on this -
and Salmond knows it but couldn't care less.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29232793

Brianwarnock · Sep 17, 2014

Salmond does not care about the future, his only stake in it is his name in the history books.

He compares the views of a 102 year old soldier with leaders from the modern day, he is playing the emotional card again.

After Westminster's plans for a No vote I hope they vote yes as I don't want even more of my taxes going to support the money grabbing whingers north of the border.

Brian

Uncle Gizmo · Sep 17, 2014

I think Salmon (A fishy character) is playing a very dangerous game.

There are many Islands around Scotland that have a good claim on North Sea Oil.

Salmond is paving the way for "Them" to breakaway from Scotland. He could well be shooting Scotland in the foot as it were.

Brianwarnock · Sep 17, 2014

I listen to the Scottish voters being interviewed and it's pretty much all about money,
Yes we will be financially better off
No I'm uncertain about the future

I can't help but compare them to the Greek Cypriot at uni in the late 50s, when it was put to him that they would probably be worse off without the British input he said they did not care, they just wanted to rule themselves.

If there was no oil there would be no referendum.

Brian

Rx_ · Sep 17, 2014

Bloomberg TV early morning had a couple of pro-central bankers (what we call the 1% wealthy) on the interview today.
They were not only anti-independence. They gave me the impression of ridicule against voters who would dare think they had any rights to consider this anyway.
One was a "former" Parliament (sp) member who gave me the impression that the election might not be accepted.
I watch Bloomberg because it is the least worse of our horrible broadcast Americans call "news". Bloomberg would never ever have someone actually representing the voters. They would double security if someone like Nigel Farage was even rumored to land in New York City just to prevent an accidental reference to his existence.
Bloomberg TV even discussed how horrible of example the Scottish are setting for other Europe groups that are "considering" (avoiding the word demanding) independence.

I am just a distant observer with limited access to the situation.
However, since our 1% wealthy are against the will of the people, I can't feel that there is a lot more to the story than the will of the central banks.

The comments both pro/con on this forum are very appreciated. It represents some level of professionals who probably think about the issue at some level.

I watched Iceland with great interest. They predicted gloom and doom if they became independent.

At some level, it would be interesting for me to have one more place on earth where there was at least some illusion of independence. But, that is just the emotional side of my ignorance about the entire situation. Still, I will be eagerly watching for the results and some of your comments.

Rabbie · Sep 17, 2014

The whole process seems flawed to me.

Firstly people are being asked to say Yes or No to a deal when they don't know the terms because they haven't been decided.

Secondly Cameron decided to remove the "More Devolution (Devo-Max)" from the ballot paper and made it a straight Yes or No. Now he has changed the rules and the actual choice as promised by the three party leader in the so-called is between Independence and Devo-Max. There are however major doubts on whether Westminster can deliver on Devo-max as it will upset a lot of English and Welsh voters.

The option I would prefer is a proper federal solution for the UK. All parts should be treated fairly.

Mile-O · Sep 18, 2014

Rabbie said:
Secondly Cameron decided to remove the "More Devolution (Devo-Max)" from the ballot paper and made it a straight Yes or No. Now he has changed the rules and the actual choice as promised by the three party leader in the so-called is between Independence and Devo-Max.

The option they've pulled out their ass in the last week is certainly not Devo-Max, which is how some are reporting it. Devo-Max is everything devolved, with the exception of defence and foreign affairs.

I must say, the atmosphere in Glasgow is special. There's a real buzz about the city. People on buses, in pubs, and even in schools are talking about issues. It's amazing. Rallies are ridiculously well attended, often with standing room only. No matter which way this goes, Scotland will never be the same again; the electorate have woken.

Rabbie · Sep 18, 2014

Mile-O said:
The option they've pulled out their ass in the last week is certainly not Devo-Max, which is how some are reporting it. Devo-Max is everything devolved, with the exception of defence and foreign affairs.

I must say, the atmosphere in Glasgow is special. There's a real buzz about the city. People on buses, in pubs, and even in schools are talking about issues. It's amazing. Rallies are ridiculously well attended, often with standing room only. No matter which way this goes, Scotland will never be the same again; the electorate have woken.

Glad to hear it

It will also change the UK regardless of which way the vote goes.

Any concessions already promised to Scotland must be delivered and also to other parts of the UK. The Brown blueprint looks like a good way to go.

Enjoy the party Mile-O even if the result goes the wrong way for you. It certainly looks like being very close but perhaps there still some surprises in store

Mile-O · Sep 18, 2014

Rabbie said:
It will also change the UK regardless of which way the vote goes.

It's what's needed.

Any concessions already promised to Scotland must be delivered and also to other parts of the UK.

Indeed. Otherwise we'll be demanding a referendum again and the sentiment will be even stronger.

The Brown blueprint looks like a good way to go.

Depends. Not seen any evidence of the fag packet it's been written on. If Devo-Max had been on the ballot, that would have been the way to go, to be honest.

dan-cat · Sep 19, 2014

You can't please all of the people, all of the time.

From an outsider's point of view, holding a referendum on the dissolution of a 300 year old union is an astonishing submission to democracy. It's difficult to understand any cynicism placed on this opportunity from this side of the water.

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