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I guess you can if you want to but I would think it would be easier to refer to the over 6000 manuscripts that have already been dug up.:D

Alc, I am one of those believers who has not been offended. I can see where some have made claims of being a believer and appear to have been offended. Maybe I just see things differently from them. I would hope it wouldn't be as you have quoted above that they are "irritated by us atheists...

and your guess would be wrong. I would consider it inconsiderate of me to me to say so. My Dad said to me often "If a man told him he feels closer to God by driving his car, that he wouldn't tell him otherwise." I guess my Dad's influence was a little strong. I guess if I could ask a...

Rabbie, don't really know that you are that interested in knowing but 144,000 is mentioned in prophecy in the New Testament but not in the way that this is being referenced and does not have anything to do with a number count of who goes to heaven.

Since no one answered this question, Alisa, then I will take a shot at it.:) I don't know what the right word would be, disrespectful may be taking it to far, but I would think it would be at the very least, inconsiderate. If someone truly believes in one or all of the things you've listed...

I'm not from the UK but I'm all for it. I have a picture of John Wayne, standing in front of an American flag, and he's saying "now tell me again why the hell I have to press '1' for English?" P.S. Just to cut Col and Rich off at the pass. We do speak English we just butcher it up real bad...

Ok, I gotcha now and it's a good point.

Maybe your making my point. Jesus and his followers were not after money, obviously so maybe they really believed in what they were doing and being cons had nothing to do with it, since the "art of a con is to make money".

and I'm still missing your point of both accounts now. Bobby Sands took his own life, hard to call him a martyr and I really don't see the comparison on the Muslim 2,000 year thing, at least not how it ties into what was being discussed.

True, Rabbie, but he also was only exiled to the Isle of Patmos after he was put into a pot of boiling oil but was not consumed, so I guess he would be put into the category of attempted martyr.:)

Die by choice? No! One died by being thrown off of a temple roof, one was crucified upside down, one ran through with a sword or spear; one beheaded and etc. Also, none of them took any other persons life while they themselves died. Your making a pretty sad comparison between someone who...

I would argue that they didn't. The did what they did by choice.

Yea, this con-artist and His 12 followers really do fit your discription. They all believed what they were teaching so much, that everyone of them died a martyr's death. None of them had homes. None of them had money. Few clothing. Depended upon others for what shelter and clothing they...

Alisa, I think you may need to go back and read by post again. Your reply is quite a ways off from what I posted. I never made the statement that someone can only be moral if they have religion. I only commented that I do not believe your statement of humans being moral by nature.

Sorry for the delay in responding Rabbie. We drove to Oklahoma to celebrate my Dads 70th birthday. My kids are good kids and they have good kids. I am not implying that they are bad, so I either must not be making my point very well or you are missing my point. They are good kids because we...

Why would I surprise you? Have you ever watched Super Nanny? If you watch this show you will see how children come out when they are left to decide what is right or moral.

Friday, your post applies to my post, in what way? Alisa made the statement that we are moral by nature. I was using the point that small children, left to themselves, do not exhibit being moral by nature. I never implied that whether someone goes to church makes them a good or evil person...

You really believe this statement? Think back to when you children were say are 2 to 4 years old. When they broke something and you asked them if they did it and they told you no. When you came home from a friends house and they had taken a toy home with them that belonged to your friends...

Don't take it as disrespectful at all. I think that tragedy usually brings people to a definitive point and there is usually not much fence riding going on when it happens. For you, tragedy further confirmed "there is no God", for me it made me rely more on Him. I'm not using it as "proof"...

I would be lying if I said no. I guess in my minds eye, I can't see how that wouldn't be human not to. I think there are always times that people evaluate what they believe and how they are living and question "what if I'm not right." "what if what I hear folks say is right and I don't even...