An Idea to Get Back to Decent Parenting? (1 Viewer)

Isaac

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Okay, it kinda goes against my principles on the subject of people being responsible for the consequences of their own behavior - good consequences, bad consequences - but then again, I think (but am not an expert) that there is plenty of official, formalized headache the legal system already ascribes to parents in the case of juvenile deliquents, so...

Proposed China law would punish parents for their kids' bad behavior (msn.com)

Haven't you ever been in a public place and wished there was a law like this ...

All of a sudden it would be common to teach a child to obey authority again - like magic ...
 

The_Doc_Man

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Technically, this kind of law exists in the USA though not to the extreme of cash penalties for kids who don't behave in classrooms. Parents are legally responsible for damages incurred by their unruly kids now.
 

Isaac

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True. Somehow I am thinking the Chinese law will be enforced over a much broader spectrum of behavior than actual property damage - like obeying commands from authority figures. I was reading it and especially liked the video gaming restriction! Granted, I am for parent's rights to rear their children, but we have gotten to the point of total insanity (as a whole).

I suppose this is where it leads, naturally. Now a majority of the country is willing to consider socialism. More government services, more free stuff, send me a check, pay for kindergarden, pay for college, provide housing and subsidize it if the market doesn't like me, blah blah blah..... anything to avoid waking up in the morning and going to work. Of course eventually that won't work, but a lazy enough nation will try the heck out of it for a while, if allowed.
 

Galaxiom

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Obeying authority was never a great child rearing strategy. Violence as a control measure is not effective and definitely not a way to engender respect. Many kids just end up fearing their parents and despising their dominance. As such they choose to do things behind their parents' back.

The notion of "respecting elders" has always been a flawed one sided, "do as I say not as I do" mistake.

Kids do better when treated with respect, openness and kindness which they will then reciprocate. I was never aggressive towards my children or tried to dominate them. They always responded well to calm reasoned discussion and being genuinely listened to in a relationship of equals.

Now aged 39, 35 and 34 they are among the most well adjusted respectful and pleasant people I have had the pleasure of having in my life.
 

kevlray

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Of course I have seen at least three cases of public urination by a child (boy) when bathroom was available close by. The parent did nothing to stop the child.
 

Isaac

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Obeying authority was never a great child rearing strategy. Violence as a control measure is not effective and definitely not a way to engender respect.

I've been hearing this since the rise of pop psychology, and it never gets any less wrong. The facts of life simply disprove it to me, every day.

The people who think spankings equal violence have obviously never actually performed the act of a controlled, limited, information-laden spanking NOT done out of or in any type of anger - which the child can well sense.

For anyone who still hangs on to the notion that spankings create abusers and sexual disorders are completely genetic and unavoidable, let's take my family.

We were all raised in loving Christian homes, disciplined by our parents. We'll call this "the strategy".

My great grandpa and great grandma raised all their children like this. It worked. All of their children were happy, relatively healthy, and very hard working - respected people. My grandpa raised his family like this too. It worked too. All of his children, bar none, were exactly the same.
My father raised us this way, and (I bet you're guessing now!) - magically, all of his children worked out this way too. Zero abuse, lots of hard working respectable members of society. My dad have 5 kids. 4 of them have children - and actually mature families. Zero abuse, lots of hard working respectable members of society. They range from vice presidents in the education field to CEOs of companies to defense lawyers; their families are close knit and happy. Now let's go to the last section, our kids (my kids, my siblings' kids). Raised exactly identical. All of our kids, ranging from 14 to 27, all happy, healthy, zero abusers, hard working, growing to become respectable people. Never hit a human being in our lives, and do not suffer from any identity confusion type of disorder. (NOT to say we never had any mental health issues; we certainly have to the extent 50 people might normally have - and everyone deserves compassion and kindness no matter what they're struggling with).

Coincidentally (of course), zero of them have any sexual identity other than the way they were born.
(Contrast that with celebrity or showbiz children, raised by people in you know what kind of environment and beliefs, who seem to end up more along the 20% area).

But, sure - that's all just a gigantic coincidence against the supposed "spankings create abusers". If that was actually true, I'd certainly think at least one out of the 50 of us wouldn't be so lucky. But it's only true for people who have never contemplated the different ways to have spankings. They imagine a spanking means an angry father punching a child or some such nonsense that obviously is awful and certainly does not engender respect.

The explanation is fairly simple. The detail often overlooked is whether spankings are done out of anger, or in a loving, controlled way and as the very precise fulfillment of promises and fair warnings. Done intelligently and out of love (which a child can easily sense the difference), it doesn't turn out anywhere near what you are thinking. Done violently and in anger, I'm sure it creates monsters. It takes a lot of self discipline and good character to actually punish a child in a loving, controlled way that the child fully expected due to fair warnings and promises kept going in both directions. Most people nowadays don't have that discipline, so they just abandoned the whole thing altogether. (They just assumed that every time they spank their kids, they'll probably just do it in an angry way in the moment, which yes, that's very easy and tempting to do, and probably does create monsters. A child can easily tell whether you are angry or happy with them from infancy. As we all know the difference between a baby's reaction when you are loving with them versus if you're screaming at them.)

Unfortunately, most people never recognized this difference, so we now have wild, uncontrollable, spoiled kids, who turn into entitled, lazy adults. Not all of them, of course. Pain causes change eventually, for most normal people.

The problem with just asking Johnny politely to do the right thing and leaving it up to him is that that's not actually the way the world works. You're preparing your child for a world that does not exist and never will. When he gets to school he'll be required to do things, not just requested. All his life all the way up until death he'll have an authority figure in his job and virtually any other group he's a part of. He'll have to learn how to respect authority for the first time after graduating from college rather than the parent having taught him properly. That's a terrible preparation for the real world, never learning how to obey authority and respect them just because, whether you agree with them or not.

Of course there will be some exceptions to these rules on all sides. For my part, I want my children to have the best of both worlds. An environment where they engaged in loving and explanatory conversations and were respected, and also understood the discipline required and appropriate for real life. There is a balance, and it is possible to strike that balance.

BTW, everyone I mentioned in our family respects their parents greatly. :)

Yes, they have done "studies" on this. Because they came into it with such a strong bias hoping for a particular outcome, and because they generally were unfamiliar with how spankings are done right, they never thought of a way to differentiate a drunk, angry man slapping a child vs. the nearly opposite scenario I have described. If they had, their studies might reflect the useful information demonstrated by those 50 people in my family tree.
 
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Galaxiom

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The people who think spankings equal violence have obviously never actually performed the act of a controlled, limited, information-laden spanking NOT done out of or in any type of anger - which the child can well sense.

For anyone who still hangs on to the notion that spankings create abusers and sexual disorders are completely genetic and unavoidable, let's take my family.

We were all raised in loving Christian homes, disciplined by our parents. We'll call this "the strategy".
Spanking is violence by any definition. It is unnecessary. No spanking in my family and the kids are all hard working respectful,, loving people.

Perhaps the need for violence is part of your culture. "Spare the rod and spoil the child". My family is atheist.

There was a time when some men believed that hitting their wife was a necessary act of love.
 

moke123

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Just get'em shock collars, That'll work.

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Isaac

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I don't see spanking as an absolutely necessary ingredient, although it probably makes the most sense; discipline of any kind that's firm, actually constitutes a punishment that induces a 4 year old to obey the next time, and follows a very consistent pattern of fairness and promises will do.

I am sure you do not really believe that spanking is exclusive to "my" culture, as we know it is quite longstanding & widespread in nature.

Yes, some people's children come out of "your" parenting style fine - I agree. Some do, many don't.

I guess there are several elements going on in this conversation, and perhaps I've oversimplified it by focusing on spanking.

There is more to consider, like:

- Are you talking about no discipline or punishment of any kind, or do you only object to spanking? Do you actually know that children would prefer various forms of alternate disciplines vs. a quick spanking? A quick recollection on my part as a child myself says "definitely not".
- We should both agree that different children require different approaches, broadly speaking. I had a son & a daughter. My son required VERY little discipline of any kind - either the kind you prefer (and you think your children prefer, although I doubt you're able to poll your 4 year old), or spankings.
- I have never heard of a time where men believed that hitting their wife was an act of love, but I'm sure you'll educate me on that one!
- If you want to insist on "spanking is violence by any definition", where you're assuming that violence is bad, then you'd also have to admit that "violence" is now considered to be many more things than it used to. In fact, "silence is violence" is one of the newest things.
Why is depriving your children of their video game console for the day less "violent" than a spanking? Why is it better? According to the most modern definitions of violence, many forms of totally non-physical acts, and even omissions, are being considered "violence".
Ready to exclude all those too?
My point is, bandying about the term "violence" as if it means anything is useless.

Yes, there really are drastically different forms of spanking.

Just like there is a difference between me slapping my wife and me poking her in the ribs a little while laughing at something she said in front of someone else. You're trying to suggest "it's all violence, therefore, it's all the same", but that argument is just silly on its face. Sorry. It's too obviously untrue to even merit engaging with.

You didn't respond to my main point, which is the falsity of the modern theories, by great oversimplification and failure to control for more details, assume "spankings create abusers", and that kind of thing, so I'll assume it speaks for itself. If anyone wants to explain to me how those theories are still true while not even 1 out of 50 people in 4 generations of identical spanking treatment came out with any scars or bad habits of any kind, I'm waiting.

We're not going to change each other's minds, though. Two facts are really all I need. Controlled, limited spankings have taught children early obedience and right action for a long time, and still work fine. Out of the people in the modern era that eschew child discipline, most of their kids are awful as children and teens. A small % of them manage to eek out decent children, youth and adults by avoiding discipline. If you're in that small category of people who really reared decent acting kids by the art of persuasion, good for you. (y) I rarely see them. :)
 

kevlray

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I try to avoid spanking grandchildren (of course the children, two girls are grown now). But every once in a while. They may get a swat. Most of the time it is not hard enough to inflict pain. But to get their attention and let them know that their behavior is not tolerated. We use time outs and privileges taken away (no toys, TV, etc.). as much as possible.
 

NauticalGent

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My family were huge fans of corporal punishment. I could argue both points with equal enthusiasm. One good thing about electronic devices is they serve as very effective motivational methods to archive compliance.

My daughters knew without question that I would take thier phones away and it was enough to make them tow the line. My granddaughter is only 3. Timeouts work fairly well - which is good. I couldnt spank her if I wanted to!!
 

ColinEssex

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Mothers should stay at home and be proper mothers, that's their job. Unfortunately parents these days think more of going to work than bringing up their children properly. The children get fobbed off to grandparents, childminders and any other Tom, Dick or Harry that saves the mother from doing her job. Thus, the children grow up confused and with no sense of right or wrong, then they become wild teenagers and commit offences like stealing, violence, vandalism and smashing up government buildings, its all down to bad parenting.
People say families need the money and expect handouts to get free food etc. But, if they can't afford children then they shouldn't have them, it's quite simple. I would like a Rolls Royce but can't afford one so I haven't got one, it's the same with children.
Parents these days have it easy and they are coining it in with both parents working. Children need a firm hand to teach them right and wrong, politeness and respect. It's a shame mothers can't see that and do their job properly.

Col
 

AccessBlaster

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In the 1900s kids worked in coal mines in places like Pennsylvania, after the great depression parents said "never will my child go without" and after 1945 we started to decline. We started to get fancy names like BOOMERS, with that came less responsibility and more dependency on the government, and fewer bootstrap mentality types. Our kids became lazy and selfish and prone to be manipulated by socialist institutes. Now we give toddlers $800 cell phones to act as babysitters. The good news I believe in cycles and hopefully, in the near future, we will see the error of our ways.
 

NauticalGent

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IMHO, one of the biggest moral hazards each generation has commited began with "I've tried to give them all the things I didn't have as a kid..."
 

AccessBlaster

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I say, steady on old chap. I was braced for the usual slagging off or even being reported for a ban.

Col

We all say outrageous things at times to try and get a visceral response from the reader. But most of us don't throw a sucker punch and then pretend to be a victim of the community.


BTW, I don't advocate for bans of anyone, I do not have anyone on ignore.
 

Isaac

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I do like the idea of non-physical punishment if it's available. We absolutely utilized that in addition to the spankings, just depended.
But the spanking can be pretty efficient. I just shake my head when I see parents trying to "negotiate" with a 4 year old.
I remember when we had our daughter in church, she was 3, 4, 5, 6 etc, people would ask us "What do you do? Why is she so good?" Not always of course, but enough to stand out a bit.
I told them it's a combination of starting early, being CONSISTENT (big one that gets missed - never make exceptions, either good or bad, always be fair), never spank out of anger (spanking out of anger makes them afraid all the time because your emotions are unpredictable, therefore spankings are too - which is awful). people used to come up to my dad when i was little, ask him the same thing. he never saw the big deal, well they're taught to obey, not much to it.
it wasn't perfect, but it definitely will make the kid's general ability to function in the real world (like when you have to be quiet, wait, not hit things, answer an adult, etc), just basic stuff that it's hard to believe is even in question, our society has just got silly.

the older they get, though, the more you can use the reasoning, explanation, heart thing - and hope that a little bit of the more genuine "i don't want to disappoint or violate my parents' trust" starts to come into play. at least you hope :giggle:
 

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