Is downloaded software unethical? (1 Viewer)

NauticalGent

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Inspired from a recent thread, I am curious as to what others think. Obviously, using software you did not pay for is illegal, but what is legal and what is RIGHT and/or ETHICAL is often different things...

For the record, I could argue both sides of this topic and make you believe that I am genuine on both arguments...
 

Jon

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It is unethical because you are stealing someones creation. But most people do it and rationalise its harmlessness because you do not incur a marginal cost of production when you do so. It applies to anything digital: software, movies etc. When someone steals a physical product, there is a loss of raw materials, assembly cost and transportation to the producer.

I think just about everybody I know is guilty.
 

Minty

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In a previous life, a firm I worked for had been done to the tune of $70000 for not having the correct licensing for software being used within the organisation.

That was a not small sum of money, for software that wasn't particularly up to date either. (Basically old versions of windows on test machines)
As an individual, you'll probably never get found out, but if you are in business, just shell out for it, it's tax-deductible after all.
 

cheekybuddha

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>> Is downloaded software unethical? <<

I think you need to define what you mean by 'downloaded software', NG.

The last software I installed from from physical media is the ancient copy of Office2007 that I use. Everything else I have used since has been downloaded.

But I'm guessing you're referring to cracked downloads via torrent/gnutella/share sites?
 

NauticalGent

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BTW CB, the dog in your avatar is a beaut! I have always liked the brindle markings on Pit Bulls. I am assuming he/she is yours?
 

The_Doc_Man

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If you have software that is freely offered (probably by a vendor who hopes to sell you the "full version" of his offering) then there is neither a legal nor an ethical issue. Take, for example, the Adobe model for Acrobat, which has a reader and a full version. Reader is free; fully function version is not. I see no ethics violation at all.

Let's consider software that is free but contains advertising for other things. The vendor doesn't profit that much from the paid download but gets all sorts of income from the advertising feedback. I'm paying for it in a different way. Again, nothing illegal or unethical.

I have not yet decided whether Windows 11 falls into the category since we are allowed to edit our own registry (at our own TECHNICAL peril, but no monetary penalties...) and a hack exists to "fake out" the Win11 barrier to installation if your machine doesn't "fit the bill."
 

cheekybuddha

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I have always liked the brindle markings on Pit Bulls. I am assuming he/she is yours?
He was a beaut! He was a Staffordshire Bull Terrier rather than a Pit Bull, but on the larger side, so often mistaken for a Pit Bull. Sadly he died in 2015 - he was fourteen. We had his one of his daughters too who died last year at the age of fifteen. She was a similar brindle.
1634828305759.png


Now we have a tan-coloured Collie/Beagle/Staffy cross! Also a very good looking dog!
1634828356304.png
 

Steve R.

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Obviously, using software you did not pay for is illegal, but what is legal and what is RIGHT and/or ETHICAL is often different things....
A lot of software, is developed with the intent of providing it to the public as a free download. The Linux ecosphere has a plethora of free software available for download. (Of course there are also requests for donations, which is reasonable. I have made donations for "the cause".) MariaDB, a database similar to MS Access, is one example of software available as a free download.

Additionally, consider that this forum (and other forums of this type). People willingly supply (free) code available for download.
 

NauticalGent

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Absolutely Steve. But in the case of Win 11, which MS has no intention of giving it away, if someone has made it available on a torrent site - would you download it? Substitute any software, I used the WIN O/S as an example only.
 

pbaldy

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In my view it's not ethical. There is the argument that the "cost of production" was minimal, since there is no physical product, but a lot of work went into creating the software and that's what's being "stolen", not a physical product. Hey, I've copied a CD/DVD or two in my day, and downloaded a few tunes off Napster, but I wouldn't do it now. Older, probably no wiser, but a little more "aware".
 

Jon

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There is the argument that the "cost of production" was minimal
The cost of production of some video games is over $100 million. That is why I have referred to the marginal cost of production. i.e. if you create one more unit, it costs nothing. And for that reason, it seems more doable for someone who wouldn't dream of stealing from a local shop.

Then again, you could extend this argument in many ways. What about if you do something that takes up someone elses time, where their time is money? Have you unethically stolen billable hours from that person? An example could be asking them for directions. Thief! Tiny snatches of criminality costing others money. Disgraceful! It may not be illegal, but could it be considered ethically worse since you have cost them money, verses appropriated software with no extra marginal cost to the creator?
 

pbaldy

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I guess I meant the cost of the individual piece of software. Pre-download, call it the cost of producing a CD/DVD. It wasn't much to create a disc, and it's less now with downloads. I agree, the cost of creating the software is large.
 
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conception_native_0123

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what is legal and what is RIGHT and/or ETHICAL is often different things...
i am now working with access 2007 and I got it from the university of iowa on cd way back in 2006. it was free for students and it has the licensing key on the back of it. i have shared it with over 20 people and all copies work just fine. i have 2 copies with 2 different keys.

obviously that can't happen anymore.
 

CJ_London

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An example could be asking them for directions.
Not sure that is a good example - the potential responder has a choice not to respond, a software/media supplier has to invest time and money to prevent and/or prosecute

A bit like on here and other forums. I interrupt my 'billable time' to respond on occasion, but that is my choice and depends what else I am doing. But I draw the line at wasting my time (billable or not) due to poorly structured questions which I consequently tend to ignore. The exception being a response to a new member who doesn't yet know the ropes (or etiquette).

What about if you decide to sell your house? You call 3 or 4 agents all who visit to give you a valuation. You can only choose one. Their time is money, but they don't expect to win every time, so that cost is built into what they charge for those times when they do win. Cost here, revenue over there.

 

Jon

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Not sure that is a good example - the potential responder has a choice not to respond,
Do we really have a choice to respond though? Social obligation through hundreds of thousands of years have programmed your DNA. They pinched your time.

a software/media supplier has to invest time and money to prevent and/or prosecute
They don't have to. They have a choice not to respond. :p

Another example is ads littering the internet. [Slinks off into distance.]

What about if you decide to sell your house? You call 3 or 4 agents all who visit to give you a valuation. You can only choose one. Their time is money, but they don't expect to win every time, so that cost is built into what they charge for those times when they do win. Cost here, revenue over there.
Wasting a salesmans time...I have a phobia about going into a shoe shop and asking to try shoes on. I am flatfooted and 90% of the time the shoes are not suitable. So, I am reluctant to go in knowing that I am very likely to waste that persons time. So, I have just got in from a hike in damn grass in my trainers with wet feet because they are these perforated things that let in air (and water!). I need proper hiking boots.
 

Isaac

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The cost of production of some video games is over $100 million. That is why I have referred to the marginal cost of production. i.e. if you create one more unit, it costs nothing. And for that reason, it seems more doable for someone who wouldn't dream of stealing from a local shop.

Then again, you could extend this argument in many ways. What about if you do something that takes up someone elses time, where their time is money? Have you unethically stolen billable hours from that person? An example could be asking them for directions. Thief! Tiny snatches of criminality costing others money. Disgraceful! It may not be illegal, but could it be considered ethically worse since you have cost them money, verses appropriated software with no extra marginal cost to the creator?

So you mean that even though one single download is essentially meaningless, all of the downloads taken together do count, and thus, every single one (which is required to get many) counts? That makes sense. Now can we apply that to voting? 😜

@NauticalGent
Some people just enjoy the mischevious adventure involved in "getting things for free". From the person who drives 5 miles to a different grocery store to use a coupon for a free bottle of water to the person actually downloading licensed stuff off of torrents.
However, I think for most normal people the "cost" calculation factors into it. For example, I can honestly say that I don't do anything like that. But is it attributable to my good morals and character? Probably not very much. I can get an entire desktop version of Office 2007 for $25, so why in the world would I go to the trouble and risk of stealing it? Would my spotless record still exist if the only thing that worked for anything was office 365 and I always needed to pay full price? I'm not sure, I've "never been tested".

Here's another interesting question, a twist on NG's original question.
How many people (granted, most people wouldn't admit it anyway, so I guess this is for our rhetorical pleasure!) - how many people are always honest when it comes to the attestation that you are using something for "test" or "personal" or "charitable" or "community" reasons???

All I can tell you is what I've seen. If I had a dollar for every team of developers who otherwise seem to be very "good people"--But, they all use Teamviewer's "Free" edition, I think I'd be rich..........

In fact, in my entire life, I've never even met someone who pays for it! If that tells the self righteous ones anything... lol
 

Isaac

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Wasting a salesmans time...I have a phobia about going into a shoe shop and asking to try shoes on. I am flatfooted and 90% of the time the shoes are not suitable.

I feel a bit shy on that point sometimes, too. What helps is to remember the million times in my life that salesmen have wasted my time, and pretty much every other behavior. Then I don't feel as bad.

Now I am a good tipper, but ONLY when it makes sense. For me it's "tip good or don't tip". At a restaurant, I tip good.
But the little Styrofoam cup that the kids at Yogurtland set out, hoping their terrible service will be forgotten by writing "tips" on a sharpie? Now that's just ridiculous. Tips at 5 guys is another example. I'm sorry, but the people in America trying to extend tipping to silly places like fast food hamburger counters....they're just embarrassing themselves.
 

AccessBlaster

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How many of us attempted ripping a protected audio CD or game CD? Hacking security-protected software was a right of passage back in the day.
 

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