Jesus Christ - Fact or Fiction?

scott-atkinson

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I would like to enquire as to peoples interpretation of the one of the worlds longest running debates.

Did Jesus Christ exist, and if so was he the son of God or just a well educated man and that over the centuries chinese whispers have portrayed him to be the son of God.

My own personal belief is that religion, including Christianity brings happiness to millions, but at the same time religious beliefs are the main factors in warfare. I personally do not believe in Jesus Christ as the son of God, but I do believe in Heavon. Mixed up eh!

It would be interesting to here your views.
 
I figure that since the Americans don't follow his teachings it must be fiction. That's good enough for me
 
Rich said:
I figure that since the Americans don't follow his teachings it must be fiction. That's good enough for me


Rich,

There is an awful lot of Anti Americanism in you. Which I can understand a lot of people feel that way especially with the GWB and TB connection.

But what are your views on the subject of JC?
 
scott-atkinson said:
Rich,

There is an awful lot of Anti Americanism in you.
I'm anti hypocrisy not anti any specific nation. As for the bible and jesus christ, my views on this fictitious book are well known here. I'd rather read Beatrix Potter or subscribe to Buddhism
 
Rich said:
As for the bible and jesus christ, my views on this fictitious book are well known here.


Rich,

As I am relatively new to this forum I would be interested to hear these views, quite a lot of the time you talk sense and I value your opinion.
 
I think it's a book written and popularised by man's fear of the unknown. It does prey on that fact. It was written thousands of years ago to try and control the masses. It's the same ploy the government today is using over terrorism and it's attempts at getting its draconian anti-terrorism bill through parliament.
Fill man’s hearts with fear and enough of them will follow to make it seem legitimate.
 
Rich said:
I think it's a book written and popularised by man's fear of the unknown. It does prey on that fact. It was written thousands of years ago to try and control the masses. It's the same ploy the government today is using over terrorism and it's attempts at getting its draconian anti-terrorism bill through parliament.
Fill man’s hearts with fear and enough of them will follow to make it seem legitimate.


Rich,

This is a very interesting theory, one that I am tending to agree with, although I would question that with the onset of modern science and space exploration why this has never been proven as a fictitous tale? Perhaps that is the power of the Vatican and Christianity, as we would effectively have to rewrite history!

It's also interesting your views on the modern day threat of terrorism, I get the impression from your wording, be it right or wrong, that you believe that the global terrorism threat is not as threatening as we are led to believe, am I correct in my assumption?
 
scott-atkinson said:
It's also interesting your views on the modern day threat of terrorism, I get the impression from your wording, be it right or wrong, that you believe that the global terrorism threat is not as threatening as we are led to believe, am I correct in my assumption?
Yes, global terrorism has existed for millennia; it's not new. We made ourselves targets by sucking up to Bush and his desire for revenge over the world trade centre attack.
Don't you find it strange that the secret services here issued a scaremongering report on the day the government tried for the second time to get its draconian act through parliament? That's the same service that provided the evidence for the need to invade Iraq. Americans may fall for this crap, fortunately for us there are still enough here who don't .
 
scott-atkinson said:
Did Jesus Christ exist, and if so was he the son of God or just a well educated man and that over the centuries chinese whispers have portrayed him to be the son of God.

I wouldn't argue whether he did or did not exist, as there's no physical evidence either way. You can't say the Gospels are proof because they are just written accounts from about 60CE to 150CE and based on hearsay and invention but their very existence weighs in favour of their being someone of this name.

As for his position as Son of God, I find that notion ridiculous, given that I don't believe in God and find religion to be a waste of time. What he was, most likely, was a deluded individual. No more different than your modern loon who thinks they are on a mission for God, whether it be David Berkowitz or Peter Sutcliffe. Not to say that Jesus killed, it was against his supposed nature, so perhaps more of a Jim Jones or David Koresh style character, infecting the minds of those around him with his own delusions.

There's not much of his life in the Bible. He gets born, disappears for a number of years, and returns spouting inanities and supposedly performing miracles. Holger Kersten, in Jesus Lived In India, makes the claim that in these interim years Jesus, er, lived in India. His philosophies, for example, are more in line with those of Hindu teaching (and were indeed taught by Hindus hundreds of years before) than the eye-for-an-eye Jewish lessons. Kersten goes on to make the claim that Jesus, after surviving the crucifixion, departed again for India with his mother.

Jesus crops up in Islam as the prophet Issa, the precursor to Mohammad. Certain Islamic factions believe that after surviving the crucifixion he changed his name to Yuz Asaf. In Srinigar, Kashmir there's the tomb of Yuz Asaf shared with another minor messenger. The interesting things to note here are that while the minor messenger is buried north to south in the Muslim fashion, Yuz Asaf is buried east-west as per Jewish tradition. There's also a stone with feet carved into it, a pair of dots highlighting the wounds of possible crucifixion. Who's to say? The remains in that tomb may just be the proof of the historical Jesus.

I wouldn't tend to believe the Gospels at their word as they are the slanted views of infected minds told and retold across a series of languages. The supposed wisdom of Jesus can be elaborated by them spouting their opinion or interpretation on his oblique phrasings. Sometimes these additions can undermind or twist the connotation of what Jesus may have said or meant. The apocryphal Gospel of Thomas, for example, is a basis collection of sayings attributed to Jesus. There's no storytelling within. The interesting thing is that a number of these sayings tie in with the main Gospels although they aren't elaborated and interpreted in the way Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John did. They stand more like a list of sayings. The fact that many are ambigious about what they mean is probably why the text is apocryphal.
 
scott-atkinson said:
why this has never been proven as a fictitous tale? Perhaps that is the power of the Vatican and Christianity, as we would effectively have to rewrite history!

We wouldn't have to rewrite history. It's never been proven as a factual account either. The attrocities done in its name and those still being done (whether it be wars in Iraq or Catholic missionaries in Africa) have no need to be rewritten either, because they actually happened.
 
Rich said:
We made ourselves targets by sucking up to Bush and his desire for revenge over the world trade centre attack.

So you believe that this was an act of terrorism and are not a subscriber to the conspiracy theorists?

Don't get me wrong I too believe that the invasion of Iraq to dispose of Saddam was unjustified under the name of Global Terrorism.

But I also believe that Global Terrorism affects us all, this world would be a anarchic mess if everybody used violence just because they did not agree with something.

I do believe that religion is the main cause of Global Terrorism, with the Isreali's I believe causing the boiling pot to overflow.

What do you think?
 
SJ McAbney said:
We wouldn't have to rewrite history. It's never been proven as a factual account either.


I agree that this has never been proven, although to millions of people around the world they do not need facts to prove that he existed their so called faith gives them that.

But if it was proven that this did not happen would that not cuase terror to strike at the hearts of these millions of people. Might we just be making things a million times worse.

What do you think?
 
scott-atkinson said:
I get the impression from your wording, be it right or wrong, that you believe that the global terrorism threat is not as threatening as we are led to believe

I certainly don't believe that global terrorism is much of a threat, let alone a major one. We've had relatively few cases on a global scale (New York, London, Madrid, Bali, and a tiny suicide bombing in Istanbul) on a global scale and the casualty rate therein (approaching 3,000?) is far outweighed by the deaths from African civil wars, the Israel/Palestine conflict, the Russia/Chechnya conflict, and the much documented war in Iraq in which an occupation has led to civil war.

Let the intelligence organisations do their job and if they can't foil a plot, so be it. But don't let government leaders and the national media lead you to believe there's a threat. One needs to sell his policies and the other needs to sell papers.
 
scott-atkinson said:
I agree that this has never been proven, although to millions of people around the world they do not need facts to prove that he existed their so called faith gives them that.

They are daft. If faith is their argument, there's no point talking to them.

But if it was proven that this did not happen would that not cuase terror to strike at the hearts of these millions of people.
No. They can't look at the scientific evidence that evolution is the most likely method of life on Earth and subscribe to the completely illogical notion of a Creator. What makes you think they would accept Jesus didn't exist on presentation of proof? The stupid seed gets planted by religious parents and the child growing up in such an environment that fears to question (perhaps embarrassed they believe something that is so utterly stupid?) will perpetuate such nonsense with their own children.
 
SJ McAbney said:
They can't look at the scientific evidence that evolution is the most likely method of life on Earth and subscribe to the completely illogical notion of a Creator.


You say most likely method of life on Earth, is there another?

Do you believe that when we die our bodies just crumble to dust and that is the end, apart from memories of loved ones keeping us alive?
 
scott-atkinson said:
Do you believe that when we die our bodies just crumble to dust and that is the end, apart from memories of loved ones keeping us alive?
Yes, why should we be any different from plants animals etc. etc., the nearest we get to afterlife or re-incarnation is our genes being passed on to our children.
 
scott-atkinson said:
You say most likely method of life on Earth, is there another?
There's no better theory as yet proposed. Therefore we must take evolution as the most likely explanation for our existence.

Do you believe that when we die our bodies just crumble to dust and that is the end, apart from memories of loved ones keeping us alive?
Yes, I do. To be fair, so do Christians. They can spout all they want about how they will be with God in Heaven but they know that's just rubbish. When a Christian gets cancer or develops a tumour then we (and they) should be elated because they are going to be with God sooner than expected. It's what He wants. Why are they so sad then? Why is it seen as a tragedy? If you're going to die, you're going to God. What is there to be sad about?
 
scott-atkinson said:
Did Jesus Christ exist, and if so was he the son of God or just a well educated man and that over the centuries chinese whispers have portrayed him to be the son of God.
My own personal belief is that religion, including Christianity brings happiness to millions. . . . . . . .
You're talking 2 different things here. A geezer called Jesus and religion -neither of which have any bearing on the other.

It was proven on TV recently that the "miracles" are no more than illusions performed by a very clever magician. Therefore, this magician spun the idea he had a "power" - got people to give money etc etc then it got all screwed up over the centuries with this god shite.
Originally, it may have been just a street hustler able to fool everyone and make a few quid, pull a few birds etc.

Then you get this rubbish where people actually believe it all without a shred of proof that any of it actually existed.

Obviously, if you're an easily brainwashed American, and most are - especially those in the bible belt, then of course you believe it all blindly without question - then carry on the hypocritical life when its not sunday.

Col
 
Colin,

I noticed on your profile you are from Essex, same as me, where abouts in Essex?
 
scott-atkinson said:
Colin,

I noticed on your profile you are from Essex, same as me, where abouts in Essex?
Colchester

Col
 

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