Pat Hartman has left the building (1 Viewer)

[ColinEssex]

Yes, I agree that we have lost a lot of valuable knowledge but, overall, I feel that the forum is now in a much healthier position than before

I totally agree with that comment.
I'm not going to 'knock' Pat as she is not here, unless she has a different username. I fully admit we did have our differences for various reasons, so I'm happy to leave it at that.
Like I said earlier, let's move on and make sure we act like sensible adults to prolong the life of a valuable and friendly site.
Col

 

[BlueSpruce]

Its always very sad when somebody goes from being regarded as one of the most respected experts to becoming a significantly negative influence on the forum. In this case, I agree completely with my namesake @ColinEssex (it doesn't happen often!) that Pat brought the situation entirely upon herself.

Many of us here (definitely including me) occasionally overstep the mark both in terms of our comments and the tone in which they are expressed.
Unfortunately, that had become the norm for Pat, not only in the Politics and Watercooler sections but also in technical areas. Even when giving good advice, she regularly trampled over the feelings of others, whether they were beginners, experienced developers or other moderators.

As for her personal views, some of her comments were in my opinion, potentially risking legal action even before the OSA took effect.
Her role as a moderator made her interactions with others many orders of magnitude more problematic.

I can well believe that in person, Pat is completely different to the persona shown in this forum.
However, the reality is that without her, the forum is a happier and a more positive environment.

I have no idea whether Pat demanded all her almost 48K posts be deleted but, in any case, it would have been an almost impossible task for Jon to sift through separating out what was worth keeping from those which were problematic. Undoubtedly there are now many threads where the content will be somewhat difficult to follow due to her content being removed.

Yes, I agree that we have lost a lot of valuable knowledge but, overall, I feel that the forum is now in a much healthier position than before

I have known Pat since year 2005. She always had a strong character, but I noticed her demeanour turned obnoxious right after Trump won the 2016 elections. So perhaps her AWF posts prior to that event have no toxicity? Some people become more tolerant and merciful as they age, others don't. UK-GDPR rules apply to AWF. Is AWF obligated to delete a member's account and all their content if a member requests it?

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Is AWF obligated to delete a member's account and all their content if a member requests it?

Jon can answer this from his viewpoint, but these statements appear in the "Terms and rules" page linked at the bottom of each thread page:

You are granting us with a non-exclusive, permanent, irrevocable, unlimited license to use, publish, or re-publish your Content in connection with the Service. You retain copyright over the Content.

I.e. what you post is implicitly licensed for forum use, long after you are gone.

We may remove or modify any Content submitted at any time, with or without cause, with or without notice. Requests for Content to be removed or modified will be undertaken only at our discretion.

I.e. we can censor at will. We are permitted to delete content at will. We are not OBLIGATED to delete content on request.

 

[BlueSpruce]

You are granting us with a non-exclusive, permanent, irrevocable, unlimited license to use, publish, or re-publish your Content in connection with the Service. You retain copyright over the Content

I don't think the above complies with the UK-GDPR Rights To Erasure Rule.

 

[Uncle Gizmo]

I asked Grok:-

This is a recent post on a forum I am a member of in the UK under UK legislation and I wondered if you could verify that the different assumptions made by the different people in this extract are correct:-

Grok Replied:-
Under UK GDPR (as enforced by the ICO), the forum's terms granting a "permanent, irrevocable license" to user content primarily address copyright and usage rights, but they cannot override statutory data protection obligations like the right to erasure (Article 17), so BlueSpruce's assumption is correct in highlighting a potential conflict for personal data within posts.

The moderator's view that the forum isn't obligated to delete all content on request is also largely accurate, as the right to erasure applies only to personal data (e.g., usernames, emails, or identifiable details in posts) and isn't absolute—exceptions often protect forum discussions under "freedom of expression and information," allowing retention or anonymization of non-personal elements like post text.87a9a7bc5be7

In practice for UK online forums, controllers must erase qualifying personal data "without undue delay" if grounds apply (e.g., withdrawn consent or data no longer needed), but can refuse if it impairs public interest archiving or expression, and many anonymize posts (replacing user IDs) rather than fully deleting to balance rights.

If the request involves public posts, the forum must take "reasonable steps" to notify others hosting copies, but exemptions frequently apply, supporting the terms' discretion clause without breaching GDPR.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

So, Uncle G., the answer is "get a lawyer to weed through what you've got to decide what has to go." It figures. We have a USA saying that the only folks who are statistically likely to get rich are politicians and lawyers.

 

[raziel3]

Been away for a while only to come back to so much drama .

I have no idea what cause Mrs. Hartman to make such a request but she was a very knowledgeable and skilled developer. I mean some of her advice, along with many senior developers here, really helped me develop my own skills. It is really sad to hear her go even sadder to know that a public forum like this has the power to censor or delete contributions, contributions that can help and guide upcoming developers.

Maybe I speaking out of terms here but what if @Gasman @isladogs @The_Doc_Man @CJ_London or even @MajP one day decide to have their contributions taken down, would the moderators comply? Then what?

 

[The_Doc_Man]

@raziel3 - What if? I can't speak for the others, but I would have to say it is unlikely for me to demand removal of what little knowledge I've been able to contribute. For me, at least, there is a level of satisfaction in knowing that my posts could have helped someone technically or gave them a smile on a gloomy day.

I will also say this, and I'm phrasing this part carefully. The forum has ALWAYS had the power to censor. It is only since the UK's OSA becoming active in July, 2025 that AWF has suddenly developed the NEED to censor. And since Pat found fault with me for censorship, I will add that what I actually censored wasn't in any way technical; it was more political than anything else. Going beyond that statement would probably be in bad taste so I'll stop here.

 

[BlueSpruce]

There's a general assumption that whatever you publish on the internet becomes public domain and can be used in any way by others without needing the authors permission, despite copyright and data protection laws. However, anyone can sue anyone in court and even if you win the case, you have spent unrecoverable time and money defending yourself.

 

[Edgar_]

Although I've been around for a much shorter time than most of you in more than one way, my interactions with Pat Hartman were always somewhat complicated, even in threads where she was seeking advice.

A number of new users expressed similar frustrations, and some even stopped posting, possibly due to the way they felt dismissed. It's especially tough when someone with a high post count and a "Super Moderator" badge critiques your work in a way that feels discouraging, especially when you're just looking for help.

Pat sometimes dismissed new ideas, particularly those that didn't align with her preferred methods, which could definitely be frustrating. In a community that should be open to evolving ideas and modern standards, this attitude seemed to hold things back a bit, especially with her focus on what she referred to as "the Access way".

If no other copies of her messages are available, I hope this shift will lead to a more positive, welcoming atmosphere for those trying to learn MS Access, so they can focus on constructive and more supportive content instead.

That said, Pat, if you're reading this, I truly hope you find the time to heal and feel better soon. Wishing you all the best, I hope you continue enjoying Bridge and all the other things you like with your favorite people. And if you want to continue to help others, please do so, I personally respect and appreciate your accuracy and quick response, just remember to be moderate and forgiving, even if you don't like the person or their work.

 

[Isaac]

Am I the one who caused it?
If so, I don't say anything more, because she's not here to defend herself.
If she's reading this, I just wanted to say I'm sorry it ended this way.

I don't think so, I think combination of several things

 

[Isaac]

intransigent

That's interesting and in a way true. He was intransigent in that he felt he had done the right thing , not in some random opinion. and I believe that was the truth. Sometimes you just have to say I believe I did the right thing and that is that. and I think the "that is that" part upset Pat, but you cannot please all the people all the time. If she is like a lot of people who leave she will be back anyway.

 

[Isaac]

nothing happens in a vacuum

Except a lot of sucking and swirling and hairballs!

 

[AccessBlaster]

You got the sucking part right

 

[Isaac]

Overall, Pat did cause a certain amount of friction with her style of critiquing databases. And I found her approach to topics like VBA and SQL Server to be very interesting, as if cloaking a certain lack of knowledge with a fake veneer of despising. Sorry, but that is the truth I can finally get it out. On the plus side, she was very pleasant to chat with at other times, told interesting stories and did have a lot of knowledge about table design, reports and forms, which I admired. (See, I am saying the nice stuff too, so don't jump on me). She had a lot of knowledge about getting business requirements and turning them into databases, which I admired and she freely (if bruskly) shared. Her passion about politics was destined to lead her to this point, and I for one believe this was part of the momentum which lead up to her leaving: She began to realize that an increasing number of people, even former T. supporters, were "souring" on him, his administrations' actions, and Israel's actions. That angered her, as if numbers of people were leaving the 'fold' of the faithful. I happened to be among those people, and I could sense her increasing frustration that people once devoted to supporting T were now criticizing him. I won't even say his name here, as I don't want people to think I am turning THIS into a political post. I'm not - I'm just saying she was frustrated to literally watch his support decreasing more, more, and more. This upset and disappointed her, and I can understand that . It's as if you have a crowd of people supporting and cheering for someone, and you begin to watch the crowd slowly disperse to nearly nothing......It frustrated her to no end, so I feel I was part of it too. But I think I did and said the right things, meaning my own convictions I stayed true to.
Amen. Pass the biscuits.