R.I.P. John McCain (1 Viewer)

The_Doc_Man

Happy Retired Curmudgeon
Joined
Feb 28, 2001
Messages
15,533
Saw this on the news this evening while at a restaurant. Their TV showed the network "Breaking News" banner and then said that the Senator had passed away. Only a few days ago, he announced he was stopping all further treatment. I think he knew his time had come.

Whether you like his politics or not, he was a brave and dedicated man. He was influential and his passage leaves a void, not only in politics but in the hearts of his constituents.

R.I.P., John. As a former Navy guy, I know the proper salute: May you have fair winds and following seas on this last great voyage!
 

NauticalGent

Pristine Curmudgeon
Joined
Apr 27, 2015
Messages
2,405
I for one did not like his politics but then that applies to ALL but a small handful of them - Ron and Rand Paul to name a couple of them.

That being said he was, as TR would say, “The Man in The Arena” and I TRY not to be an armchair quarter back or speak ill of the dead. And, unlike the majority of the others on Capitol Hill, he put the uniform on and walked the walk.
 

The_Doc_Man

Happy Retired Curmudgeon
Joined
Feb 28, 2001
Messages
15,533
Paraphrasing one of McCain's comments about interrogation tactics used against some of the captured terrorists:

He objected to the aggressive interrogation techniques. His opponents said "but they are savages!" He said "It isn't about what THEY are. It is about what WE are."

And, given he had been captured and tortured by the VC for upwards of 6 years, he knew whereof he spoke. He was one of the few men in Congress who COULD make that statement and have the personal authority to say it.
 

isladogs

CID Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 14, 2017
Messages
12,326
Though not a US citizen, I was very impressed with how John McCain conducted himself in the last 10 years of his life.
However, most of his policies until then, go totally against my own political instincts.
Given John McCains background, how Trump could have questioned his patriotism and it seems, got away with doing so, is beyond me.

I for one did not like his politics but then that applies to ALL but a small handful of them - Ron and Rand Paul to name a couple of them.
Just to clarify, does that mean you approve of Ron and Rand Paul?
 

NauticalGent

Pristine Curmudgeon
Joined
Apr 27, 2015
Messages
2,405
Just to clarify, does that mean you approve of Ron and Rand Paul?
Absotively, posilutley!! In fact I was a delegate for Ron Paul’s campaign. I got to see first hand just how foul US politics is. It really took the wind out of my sail and I refuse to vote in ANY election ever again.
 
Last edited:

The_Doc_Man

Happy Retired Curmudgeon
Joined
Feb 28, 2001
Messages
15,533
I refuse to vote in ANY election ever again.
I forget who said it, but I have heard it said that people deserve the government they didn't vote out of office.
 

NauticalGent

Pristine Curmudgeon
Joined
Apr 27, 2015
Messages
2,405
I forget who said it, but I have heard it said that people deserve the government they didn't vote out of office.
After what I witnessed in the 2012 “election”, anyone who thinks their vote actually counts should look into ocean-front property in Arizona investments...

We have been sold a bag of goods. As George Carlin said, there is an elite club and we ain’t in it!
 

Mark_

Longboard on the internet
Joined
Sep 12, 2017
Messages
2,112
@ NG,

National elections are not decided by the people any more, in most cases. Local elections are still of the people and by the people, so long as you are willing to vote. They also often have a greater impact upon you than national elections, so being vested in them is rather important.

That said there are still very few I'd be willing to vote for.
 

The_Doc_Man

Happy Retired Curmudgeon
Joined
Feb 28, 2001
Messages
15,533
Actually, NG, one simple fix to the electoral college would fix a lot of those complaints.

Disallow states to use a "winner take all" style of election.

That one step would return things to being much closer to "every vote counts" again. OK, the electoral college is a form of summation - but since the electoral districts most often match the senatorial districts, that means that rural and urban votes don't get mingled so often. Cities will have their clout; farming districts will have their clout.
 

Mark_

Longboard on the internet
Joined
Sep 12, 2017
Messages
2,112
@ Doc, but do you believe either Republicans or Democrats would ever allow something that could reduce their chances of being elected?? Much more likely you'd have the Queen break dancing in the streets!
 

Frothingslosh

Premier Pale Stale Ale
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
3,257
Actually, Republicans LOVE the idea of eliminating 'Winner take all' electoral rules for each state...but only in states run at the state level by the GOP but which generally vote Democrat at the national level (like Michigan). In states that reliably vote red overall, they oppose eliminating the 'Winner take all' rules tooth, claw, and nail.

Gee, I wonder why?

If you really want to get to 'every vote counts', don't go to districts - all that does is disenfranchise democratic voters, since liberals tend to live in urban areas, while rural residents tend to be conservative, and right now more states than ever are gerrymandered to an extreme we haven't seen since the 1800's.

Just remove the electoral college entirely and have the presidency determined the way states choose their senators - pure popular vote. Right now, numbers do favor Democrats SLIGHTLY, but that goes back and forth over the years, and there are more than enough moderates that they're the ones who end up actually deciding things. (And for the record, "a few cities would run the nation" is pure sophistry - the largest ten cities in the US combined account for less than 10% of the US population (24.8 million out of 330 million), and not all of those ten lean liberal, anyway. The purpose behind that argument is to scare people into thinking Democrats would take over forever, and it tricks people into thinking that acreage should be factored into voting power.)

Even with that, however, we're stuck with the two-party system as long as the Presidency is determined by majority vote (as opposed to plurality). With the majority vote system, it's basically demanded that there only be two sides to the election - any more than that dilutes one side or the other, guaranteeing that they will never win. In a plurality system, however, there's much less encouragement for people to form two monolithic parties, since all that is needed is the highest number of votes. That would actually allow more people to support other parties, and tend toward reducing the us-vs-them mentality we have here now. (Hell, the biggest reason I vote Democrat rather than Green or for some Independent is because that at anything beyond the local level (with a few exceptions like Sanders), there is literally no chance for someone whose name isn't followed on the voting form by either R or D to EVER win the election.

But as Mark_ said, that won't happen in the US. Neither the GOP nor the Democrats will ever allow it to happen, no matter how well it works in the rest of the world. People virtually never voluntarily give up political power - that's one thing that made George Washington and Cincinnatus so special.
 

Insane_ai

Not Really an A.I.
Joined
Mar 20, 2009
Messages
264
I for one did not like his politics but then that applies to ALL but a small handful of them - Ron and Rand Paul to name a couple of them.
I find the republicans and democrats are the same; they both want to tell people how to live. Libertarians (at least as I understand them) want the people to tell the government how to live and leave everyone else alone so long as they don't infringe on another's rights. (yes, this is very simplified)


As for John McCain, like all people he had his strengths and weaknesses. For better or for worse, he served.
 

Frothingslosh

Premier Pale Stale Ale
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
3,257
Honestly, not only is that INCREDIBLY simplified, it's much more old-school Libertarian than modern Libertarian. Modern Libertarianism is heavily influenced by Ayn Rand's Objectivism, which is basically custom-made for Republicans and their whole 'we must not interfere in any way with corporations' mentality.

Personally, seeing as her version of Objectivism basically turns greed into a religion, I strongly feel that the world would have been a much nicer place had Ayn Rand never learned to read.
 

Mark_

Longboard on the internet
Joined
Sep 12, 2017
Messages
2,112
Frothingslosh,

Rather anti-immigrant of you to post that. Wanting someone, especially an immigrant who sought asylum from a repressive regime, to not be able to read is rather...well... racist. I thought better of you and thought you would be more open to those who sought a better life.

When she came left Russia, it was in a rather horrid state. She fled a land torn by war and had seen first hand how badly those who championed both the "Right" and "Left" treated those they gained control over. She then found out just how bad communism under Stalin was.

Even if you don't like what she says, I'm hopeful that you can agree she should have been afforded every chance to express herself. I do hope that you champion those who have been suppressed and marginalized and would be willing to argue FOR their right to express themselves, even when their message doesn't match yours.
 

Frothingslosh

Premier Pale Stale Ale
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
3,257
Nice try, there. B+ on taking what I said completely out of context and attempting to twist it into something it is not.

It's almost as if you're the typical conservative. That is, after all, their standard go-to for the lairs and morally bankrupt 'people' who make up modern US conservatism: take a conversation you cannot win and twist it into something completely different.

Seriously, that's right up there with the more traditional twisting of "I don't believe all Mexican immigrants are rapists and murderers" into "Democrats hate law, order, and safety and want your children to die" that I see every day.
 

Mark_

Longboard on the internet
Joined
Sep 12, 2017
Messages
2,112
Well, since you said she's all about greed and wish she can't read, I figured you wanted some over-the-top response just as outside reality.

Then again that also probably shouldn't have been in a topic for the late Senator, but hey.

Reading her works is very illuminating for those who are interested in Russian literature though. Even if you don't agree with her politically or philosophically, she does write in a very traditional (almost exaggerated) Russian style. Her critique of how the Soviet Union was progressing at the time was pretty accurate.
 

Frothingslosh

Premier Pale Stale Ale
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
3,257
Just for the record, I think it will be easier for everyone reading this if I just go back to ignoring everyone who proves themselves incapable of having a discussion in good faith, including, just as a random example, taking one single comment, twisting and pretending it applies to something that was never even discussed, and then attempting to make it look like I said something I not only absolutely didn't say, but anyone with even a single working brain cell who knows me even a little knows I never would say.

Miscommunications and differences of opinion are one thing, but blatantly lying, twisting my words, and deliberately misrepresenting my words in an attempt to make me look racist not only proves the kind of gutter scum someone is, but shows that there is literally no point in even attempting to discuss anything with them.

Mark_, congratulations, you have now become the third person on my 'absolutely no point trying to have a conversation with you' list, right behind BladeRunner and Aziz. Good company you're keeping, there.
 

Frothingslosh

Premier Pale Stale Ale
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
3,257
Hell, even with the moral and political issues I've had with Doc, I've never once thought he was arguing in bad faith. The one time he took something to mean something I never said, it was an honest mistake.
 

NauticalGent

Pristine Curmudgeon
Joined
Apr 27, 2015
Messages
2,405
... you have now become the third person on my 'absolutely no point trying to have a conversation with you' list, right behind BladeRunner and Aziz. Good company you're keeping, there.
Relieved to see my name was NOT on the list, lord knows I did my best to make it there a few months back!

Would love to continue this conversation, but out of respect for Doc who simply wanted to pay his respects for someone he admired, can we move it to the Politics for Dummies thread?
 

Frothingslosh

Premier Pale Stale Ale
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
3,257
LOL

Yeah, probably a good idea.

And our issue really had nothing to do with politics. :p
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 1)

Top Bottom