The Covid cure has arrived! (1 Viewer)

Jon

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Sure, fat people are not contagious. But so what? Their own personal choices cause them to end up taking a hospital bed that someone else needs. Exactly the same way but with less contagiousness and exponentiation, that a person who didn't take a vaccine might result in getting sick with covid and taking up a hospital bed that someone else needs.

I'm afraid the analogies still hold. You wish to reject the analogy based only on the difference between contagiousness. But the only thing that affects is how drastic the result is and how many other people are affected. It doesn't change the fact that personal choices are leading people to unnecessarily take up hospital beds exactly the same as the un vaccinated are.

As do the arguments about covid misinformation and progressively less value from the vaccine as we get more information and time goes on.

You wish to follow all government advice, but if everyone had followed the same advice as, for example, the state of New York did, our economy and people's lives and livelihoods would be many times more ruined than they got last year. Some states are doing things differently, such as Texas and Florida.

You see it as a binary choice. Take the government advice or don't take the government's advice. Unfortunately, the reality is much more nuanced.

You say the analogies hold because contagiousness is irrelevant. That is like saying there is no difference between a single domino and the domino effect. Yet the two situations are profoundly different, IMHO.

But the only thing that affects is how drastic the result is and how many other people are affected. It doesn't change the fact that personal choices are leading people to unnecessarily take up hospital beds exactly the same as the un vaccinated are.
You say, "But the ONLY thing that affects is how drastic the result is". Isn't, "Most importantly" a better characterisation?

Personal choices can lead people to take up hospital beds, there is no dispute in that. The unvaccinated can end up in hospital beds too, no dispute there either. Yet again, we are back to the same thing. You want to ignore that contagious people increase the number of people in hospital beds. Are you suggesting that contagious people are not impacting the numbers in hospital?

People who demand to control other people's bodies are selfish and care nothing for others.
And what about abortions?

progressively less value from the vaccine as we get more information and time goes on.
Have I missed something? What has less value now regarding the vaccines?

You wish to follow all government advice, but if everyone had followed the same advice as, for example, the state of New York did, our economy and people's lives and livelihoods would be many times more ruined than they got last year. Some states are doing things differently, such as Texas and Florida.

You see it as a binary choice. Take the government advice or don't take the government's advice. Unfortunately, the reality is much more nuanced.
Where have I stated I wish to follow all government advice?

In previous posts, I have pointed out that I did the opposite of what the government was recommending regarding face masks. In the first instance, they said they are pointless. But I did my own research and concluded they help.

All I said was that if you ignored the government advice, the situation would be worse because complacency increases the rate of spread.

Unfortunately, the reality is much more nuanced.
Indeed it is. Things don't operate in a vacuum, and that is precisely why you need to factor in contagiousness if you are talking about the impact on hospital beds and someones potential culpability.
 
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Jon

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When was the last time you remember anything of substance coming form the "news"?
I have more faith in Fox news relative to the left wing news channels. Why? Watching years of 24/7 coverage of Trump Russia collusion, Trump has done this or that. Misrepresenting just about everything. Then the left wing media clamping down on legitimate news stories like Hunter Biden's dodgy laptop, connections with Moscow Mayors, Oligarchs, China contracts, selling art more expensive than a Picasso, pictures of the cages that Trump puts immigrants in, yet the photo was from the Biden administration era, and so on. Twitter, Facebook, CNN, MSNBC, et al, all either going silent on these news topics, or actual bans. I mean for goodness sake, they banned a sitting President from Twitter, their biggest user!
 

AccessBlaster

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I have more faith in Fox news relative to the left wing news channels.
If you look at who really owns Fox News and CNN they are all the same investors. Vanguard and BlackRock are the top two shareholders in all media. Vanguard and BlackRock have a say in everything you see or hear all day everyday it doesn't matter which channel you prefer they own it.
 

Jon

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It doesn't really bother me who owns it. I love to use Google, but the owners are not in political alignment to me. But I don't care much about that. In fact, Silicon Valley has a strong political slant.

Edit: @Pat Hartman got me onto DuckDuckGo and have also used them from time to time when the Google algo is suppressing non-compliant views!

All I care about is to get a reasonable input of what is going on without wild distortion. A comparative example would be claims of Trump being in poor health because he held a rail walking down from an aircraft, verses a triple fall by Biden walking the stairs with "It was a bit gusty out today." :LOL:
 
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AccessBlaster

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I love to use Google, but the owners are not in political alignment to me.
Google and Yahoo are also owned by Vanguard and BlackRock

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AccessBlaster

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Basically, everything is owned by 2 companies.

What's really interesting is they also invest in each other, so in reality, it's one large monolith.
 
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Jon

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I have some money in a Vanguard index tracking fund called VTI. All they do is invest in thousands of different US companies so you mimic the returns of the overall stock market. It is a way to diversify and reduce risk.

These are not managed funds, so you have no one trying to optimise the investment return.

They might have managed funds too, not 100% sure. If they don't, I would assume they have no interest in what the various companies do. The goal is to track the index.

The concept is that you have very low fees compared to your typical mutual fund, where the fund managers charge a fee, which could be 1.5%. It is hard to beat the average of the market, so history has shown that on average, after fees you are better off in an index fund than a typical mutual fund. Consequently, these funds have grown enormously in recent times.
 

AccessBlaster

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The truth is it's dam near impossible not to do business with Vanguard or BlackRock they own everything.

Okay, tin foil hat is off back to regular programming.....
 

Jon

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Vanguard have most of my investment money. Is BlackRock a US company of a similar nature?
 

AccessBlaster

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I had a better explanation but I lost the link but this one explains some of what your asking.

 
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Jon

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I imagine large companies have lots of power, but then again power is not necessarily negative. There is an argument that one persons poor use of power, is anothers good use of power. It all depends on if you are one of the beneficiaries or not.
 

Isaac

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And what about abortions?
What about them? That involves another person's body. "your fist's rights end where my nose begins"

Have I missed something? What has less value now regarding the vaccines?
Start with waning efficacy for a big one. Booster needs every 6 mo. wasn't a widely known thing at the beginning. Granted, you can probably find someone who (wisely) predicted it, but it wasn't anywhere near the 'fact' (ha) that it has become now.

Where have I stated I wish to follow all government advice?
You sure mention it a lot!

Concession accepted on the analogy issue. There are a dozen things we could have been blaming hospital patients for for thousands of years now. Going from nothing to everything on covid alone as the first one seems questionable, but I accept your whole argument rests on the matter of degree.
 

Jon

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Science already knows vaccines wane. How long the vaccine effectiveness lasts was unknown when they first came out. That is altogether different than vaccines being less effect the more we know about them. There is a big fog before more data comes in. As you know, they just try to guesstimate a lot of things based on previous medical knowledge and an understanding of biology. When we get quantum computers going and strong AI, perhaps we can do some more accurate calculations of all this.

I am due my booster, but with this new Omicron variant coming out, I'm not sure if I should wait or not. But since some early reports from South Africa say they had no hospitalisations, maybe Covid is petering out into something milder. The same thing happened to the Spanish Flu in I believe its second year. Then we can all hold hands again!

I did mention the government advice for a specific reason. You said if you follow the news...blah blah. So, I wanted to make the distinction between the news, and government advice. Why? Because in the US, perspectives on Covid seem to be divided down party lines. If you are Republican, it's an impingement on your freedom. If you are Democrat, it is about safety first. So, following news advice will then depend on which channel you tune in to. I watch Fox News, but completely disregard their commentary regarding how to conduct your own Covid safety protocol.

So, I follow what I believe after my own research. It happens that most of it coincides with government advice, but it didn't initially. I am a highly independent thinker that can lead me into arguing with just about everybody!! Consider the voting is futile thread for examples. :D

From my perspective, I projected the death toll in the UK if the government didn't do a lockdown and it was over 400K deaths. That is more than the number of UK deaths in the second world war. I thought their initial plan of "herd immunity" was reckless and ridiculous. Just because I am a Conservative, it doesn't mean I listen to the Conservative (or Republican) government uncritically. I'm with the Democrats on Covid.

I read an interesting book once by (I think) a libertarian politician. In it, he talked about various thinking traps. One he called the Group Trap. You identify with a particular group, but you may not agree with all the principles of that group. And so that group identity can lead you into compromising your thinking, which contradicts your "real" beliefs. I've always remembered that and so never follow group think, even if I am a member. Instead, I am a member because I am largely aligned.


Ultimately, the Covid issue in the US seems like a political struggle between government control and free will. It reminds me in a way of the Rittenhouse case, a struggle between safety of an attacker and the right to self defense.
 
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Isaac

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There is a big fog before more data comes in
I agree! People handle this fog differently, with varying levels of optimism or pessimism.

Then there are the actual negative things known from the past, which many "experts" and authorities seem to ignore.

Frankly, I suspect it is just like technical design.

Often, when I finish a script, I almost-fully expect it to work, even though I've mistakenly messed up the prior 5 iterations.

Probably many professions are like this.

The optimist downplays past failures, the pessimist overstates them, and the 'realist' fails to realize they are actually one or the other
 

Isaac

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Ultimately, the Covid issue in the US seems like a political struggle between government control and free will
I agree with that as well. It could be that people from other nations see us as just a bunch of uncooperative paranoid crazies (like Col does).

What they don't understand is that we have to deal with a political party who is currently using any excuse to gain a very pervasive, new, undesirable, inappropriate power--and they WILL use covid as an excuse, if given the chance. We have to maintain a healthy skepticism, our worries have been borne out in actual events by the hundreds just in the past year or two alone.
 

Jon

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I know many Republicans distrust the validity and reliability of the data, and hence they have a particular view. I am less of what I believe to be a conspiracy theorist. One thing that does annoy me though is the Wuhan cover-up. WHO were complicit, as was Fauci, based on my limited understanding. Maybe I am being unfair to him, I don't now. But I did see his refusal to answer some pertinent questions from Republicans about the BLM protests being able to spread Covid. They asked him if the BLM protests were spreading Covid. He would only answer, "Large gatherings can spread Covid." Senator: "So the BLM protests are spreading Covid, correct?" Fauci: "Large gatherings can spread Covid"

It is both disingenuous and cowardly for him to not admit the truth: BLM protests spread Covid. Yet he refused to answer that specific question. I lost faith in him right at that moment.
 

Jon

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I agree with that as well. It could be that people from other nations see us as just a bunch of uncooperative paranoid crazies (like Col does).

What they don't understand is that we have to deal with a political party who is currently using any excuse to gain a very pervasive, new, undesirable, inappropriate power--and they WILL use covid as an excuse, if given the chance. We have to maintain a healthy skepticism, our worries have been borne out in actual events by the hundreds just in the past year or two alone.
I have recently been forming a belief that the cause of extreme polorisation in the US might be free speech. I believe in free speech, but with the advent of social media, it seems that - due to human nature - everybody is digging in with their opposing views History might view free speech as a failed experiment, due to the uncontrollable urge to dispute your point! :ROFLMAO:
 

conception_native_0123

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I am due my booster, but with this new Omicron variant coming out, I'm not sure if I should wait or not. But since some early reports from South Africa say they had no hospitalisations, maybe Covid is petering out into something milder.
let us all hope JOn. something milder would suit me just fine, to be honest with ya. and....I started anew about the new variant, here:


we'll see if it takes off.
 

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