Where do you draw the line? (1 Viewer)

Jon

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Many things in life involve a subjective decision. What is right? What is wrong? What is rude, what is not? Who has stepped over the line, who is surfing it and who is on the right side of that demarcation.

How do you decide on who has the moral authority to make these judgements if we are to all live together in society, be it a digital society or out there in the physical world?
 

NauticalGent

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Now this is a can of worms, isn't it? When we CHOOSE to live in close proximity to each other, certain liberties have to be given up. Loud music, offensive language are just two examples.

But how loud is too loud and who decides what is offensive? The answer: the majority. If you find yourself feeling like a square peg surrounded by round holes, it is either time to rethink your life's choices or the place you call home.
 

Jon

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That is a good example. Loud music! When I used to live in central Brighton just over 10 years ago, my next door neighbours would sometimes have loud music past midnight. They didn't really give a stuff about anybody else.

Edit: The witches were persecuted by the majority. Just saying'.
 

NauticalGent

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That is a good example. Loud music! When I used to live in central Brighton just over 10 years ago, my next door neighbours would sometimes have loud music past midnight. They didn't really give a stuff about anybody else.

Edit: The witches were persecuted by the majority. Just saying'.
Agreed, the majority isn't always right, but they usually decide what is going to happen in the interest of what is right of wrong. Trust me, I am a huge advocate for civil liberties but I know that if I want peace, I have to keep my passions in due bound at times.

As a side note, most people cannot separate the difference of what is legal and what is right. In the US, slavery and womans' suffrage were both legal, but at no time were they ever right...
 

Jon

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How about when there is a dictator who oversees warring factions within their country? Who should decide then?

Edit: If we look at the recent impeachment, it also appears that no one can agree on what is either legal or right.
 

NauticalGent

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Who should and who will isn't always the same are they? The side that is most capable of imposing their will are the ones who will decide what happens whether it is right or wrong...or more correctly, what will be. And since history is alas written by the victor, whatever was done will be considered "right"
 

Jon

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I do find these types of topics very difficult. Quite often, I am convinced I am right on something, while someone I am in dispute with is vehemently opposed to my point of view. Intellectually, I understand that this is my own distorted prism of the world, yet emotionally it feels so true.
 

NauticalGent

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I can empathize. Just today I got all worked up over a decision my co-worker made. Although I am still convinced I am right and he did not make the best decision, my over reaction did nothing of any value.

Quite often I am more concerned with winning the argument rather than simp,y taking a step back and assessing the true importance of the issue. I have been trying to improve, but I truly beleive I will always be a work-in-progress!
 

Jon

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I tend to never say anything until I have a high probability in what I am saying is true. If someone proves me wrong, I like that! It helps me learn. But because I tend not to blurt things out without getting my facts straight beforehand, it reduces the number of times (to my mind anyway) someone proves me to be wrong. But this only applies to objective data. In our highly subjective world, there is a continuum on everything. "You can't be a little bit pregnant", I hear someone cry! Well, what about that moment between being pregnant and not-pregnant. Drill down to infinity and I argue you can be a little bit pregnant!

Or, 0.9 recurring = 1. For some, there is a continuum of truth over whether 0.9 recurring does equal 1 or not. How about the big bang? But no one is talking about the big shrink. Why not? Is this a continuum too, where binary perspectives shield us from seeing the truth?

I've gone into talking nonsense mode. It is 10:45pm here and I still haven't had my dinner! A nice chicken madras with naan bread, with chutney. Yum!
 

The_Doc_Man

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This problem has existed in one form or another for a long time. There is the quote, quis custodiet ipsos custodes, or "who watches the watchers?" (attributed to the Roman poet Juvenal of the late 1st and early 2nd century AD, or CE for those who use that designation.) Our society gives power to certain groups to enforce what we believe is right (when we pass laws). One could, however, argue that passing laws to define illegal behavior falls into the category of "tyranny of the majority" which is equivalent to saying "might makes right." Some of you will remember the outcry caused by the state of New York forcing vaccination for measles as a public health issue after the recent outbreak. Or look at China, where you can get arrested in some cities if you don't wear a mask.

The problem is that it is hard to know what is right because frequently by the standards of "whatever laws are in effect." the right thing today can be the wrong thing tomorrow. A couple of cases in point:

1. The USA passed a law prohibiting the manufacture of certain kinds of potable alcohol, but took only a few years to revoke that law. So what was right and what was wrong? When someone drank whiskey, the law made that illegal in one decade and its revocation made drinking that same whiskey legal in the next decade. So... right or wrong?

2. In the UK, homosexuality was banned and people accused of it were forced to undergo certain chemical treatments. Alan Turing committed suicide due to the effects of those treatments. However, I think it safe to say that the UK has become more tolerant of homosexuality. Many of the UK's more flamboyant entertainers are homosexual and are still loved by the populace. Sir Elton John, for example. So homosexuality... right or wrong?

Despite certain groups that claim the existence of an absolute arbiter of right and wrong, that arbiter is often seen as capricious and/or inscrutable. To claim a moral absolute is to invite chaos since the human mind doesn't see things in absolutism. "Thou shalt not kill" is presented as an absolute, yet there was a time when the Israelites were commanded to kill the Amalekites. Today the question is "What penalty is appropriate for someone who DOES kill?" And we have no consensus.

The USA humorist and "cowboy philosopher" Will Rogers once described freedom this way: "Your freedom to swing your fist ends where my nose begins." So when we talk of right and wrong, we have to ask if there is any rational standard. I don't recognize the claims made by certain groups regarding the moral absolutism involved here, because the Golden Rule pre-dates the Bible by a LOT. But "Treat others as you wish for yourself to be treated" in ANY of its variant forms has to be a starting point.

What is "wrong"?? Well, if it is something that you wouldn't want done to you then there is a good chance that it is "wrong." If you are a kinky minx and LIKE the treatment that would make others go running, it just shows that an attempt at absolutism won't cover everyone.
 
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vba_php

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Many things in life involve a subjective decision. What is right? What is wrong? What is rude, what is not? Who has stepped over the line, who is surfing it and who is on the right side of that demarcation.

How do you decide on who has the moral authority to make these judgements if we are to all live together in society, be it a digital society or out there in the physical world?
ok Jon,

I'm getting the impression that this thread was started by you because you're like the rest here and wonder if I'm causing more problems than I'm solving around here. Is that true, sir? I'm curious on this one....
 

AC/DC

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Might makes right. That’s the answer. Always has been and most likely always will. No matter what the situation is or what caveats you add that will be the answer.
 

The_Doc_Man

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@AC/DC - Despite the USA having checks and balances to prevent certain excesses, in the final analysis it was an agreement among a majority of designers and signatories. Translation: The side with the greatest number of votes decided the issues and/or agreed to the checks and balances. In other words, voting might made right. So acknowledging the caveats, I'm agreeing with you. Sometimes it doesn't require actual exercise of violent might, just of political might.
 

Jon

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this thread was started by you...wonder if I'm causing more problems
It's hard to say. I think most decisions we make are subconscious.
 

vba_php

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It's hard to say. I think most decisions we make are subconscious.
I think you lost me on that one, Jon! Just ensure me that you didn't start this thread as a sideways-hamhanded way to push me on out of here. You wouldn't do that, would you? I thought you at *somewhat* approved of what I do around here (outside of the watercooler non-sense).....??
 

Jon

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What gives you that interpretation?
 

vba_php

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well I don't know Jon, maybe based on how much you've engaged with me and discussed stuff on various topics. OK, so I'm off base then? either way, doesn't matter to me. You're a tough man to figure out, literally.
 

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