Xenoforo and other framework'd software (1 Viewer)

[conception_native_0123]

Can we please start a discussion about frameworks like this and how they mess with technically able bodies? This thread is started by me because of the problems I have with firefox. I know that firefox, for instance, has 4800 or so configurations rolled into it. To me, that's insane. But I'm also well aware of the fact that software vendors all across the world are tracking literally everything that is done by everybody at every minute of every day to try and sell anything and everything they can. While I don't have a problem with this because I know it's just business, it really gets on my nerves because I try to simplify my life and speed up my programs as best as possible and get all of the crap out of them that doesn't belong there.

Does anybody think that I am barking up the wrong tree or wasting my time by doing this? I don't have a lot of time to devote to stuff like this, but it seems to me that it is absolutely necessary if you want to be the most efficient person on Earth and not waste your life by inadvertently sending data all over the place because people are trying to control your life from the other end.

Anybody is welcome to discuss this with me, including technically able bodies and those that are not. Or if you fall in between, it really doesn't matter. This has been on my nerves for a long time. Thanks.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Can we please start a discussion about frameworks like this and how they mess with technically able bodies?

I do not understand the intent of the question.

 

[conception_native_0123]

I do not understand the intent of the question.

here's an example of self-defeating behavior for you then, richard, which is "sort of" what I'm after here:

- wordpress is a framework to help people create a web app easily.
- it is full of un-necessary bloatware and transactions that slow down the process of load time and things that actually matter.
- for people that can do their own work and do not need wordpress to do it for them, it is more of a stumbling block than a helper.

here's the equivalent for firefox...

- firefox creates all sorts of un-necessary configurations, bloats, tracking, telemetry, etc... that slow down the operation of the program.
- it wastes an able body's time if that body (me or someone else) doesn't want all the junk rolled into the program.
- if above is true, it takes a lot of time to undo all the junk that the software creators put into it. it gets in the way.
- additionally, all the complexities rolled into it also interfere with a lot of other things (like the functioning of web applications).

bottom line, I'm looking to get examples of other people that have run into this same problem with any of these, and what they did about it.
- frameworks
- canned software
- browsers
- CRMs

does that make sense you guys?

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Firefox allows you to configure away a lot of that stuff that you were discussing as "bloatware." I am not a WordPress user so cannot comment from experience. You don't necessarily know the details of the extra setup work "behind the scenes" in various software so can't know its purpose.

For instance, let's take Access. Do you know how it works? This is from an old discussion some years ago and I don't know if I could find it now, but here is the approximation: Access files start with a bunch of pointers to other important features like the system tables. Once Access finds the pointers it can start navigation through the data structures in your DB, all of which are pointers. Until all of the object collection pointers are properly set up, you cannot expect Access to work AT ALL. And if something happens during the update of one of those intermediate pointers, you get the dreaded "unknown database format" message. Do you think that setup is quick for a large DB?

Word does the same thing because of the way elements are laid out. You have pointers to the paragraphs, but then you also have a pointer to a table of styles used in the document. If there are embedded images, there are pointers to them as well. Tables are often stored separately. Word has to find all of those internal objects before you can do anything.

Excel has collections of worksheets within workbooks, and collections of rows and of columns within worksheets. When you open a worksheet you again have a delay as Excel starts setting up its internal pointers and pointer lists to find thing. PowerPoint is another case in point.

You bemoan all that setup time but if you can't understand WHY it is there then perhaps your complaints are misplaced. For someone who claims to be an expert, you show little appreciation for why things are done behind the scenes.

 

[conception_native_0123]

For someone who claims to be an expert, you show little appreciation for why things are done behind the scenes.

I never claimed to be an expert in anything doc, but I did claim many times to know what I was doing. here are my specific complains about the software I was talking about in this thread, and then you can comment appropriately:

firefox:
- it is 50x larger than it needs to be in terms of configs and files because it is attempting to log everything you do. I would love to turn that off and make it as efficient as possible.
- there is a bunch of crap rolled into it in the form of configurations that allow 3rd parties all over the world, including investment people, to target things to you, track what you do by the default settings, and allow different sites to communicate with each other when you log into ONE of them. changing these configs screws up the browser if you don't want these people bothering you and you don't want to waste your browser energy and time throwing data all ovver the world like it is set to do automatically,

frameworks:
- the purpose of them is to make things extremely easy. auth is done for you, sessions are done for you, etc, etc.... but there is nothing anyone can do about their "canned" nature and what kind of junk they put on your local machine. trackers too.
- if I want to test whether a framework is using cookies or sessions to track and time my activity, basically what I have to do nowadays is test the deleting of files on my local machine combined with logins on websites. that's a waste of time, and everyone does things different.

does that help clear up what I want to discuss here?

 

[The_Doc_Man]

So get into Firefox's settings and turn off the junk. I don't use frameworks so can't advise you.

 

[conception_native_0123]

I don't use frameworks so can't advise you.

if you were still working, you would be forced into it. basically it's the cheap way out. but everyone is using them because 50% of the work you need to build an app is already done for you when you adopt them. just like power apps. no skill needed. =( that's what is disappointing to me about them. developers are becoming button clickers. cops are becoming counselors. doctors are becoming babysitters. the software does the rest. =(

did I miss anything?

 

[conception_native_0123]

i WILL turn off the junk, thanks. but that wasn't the answer I was hoping for.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

OK... I never used a commercial framework, but I built my own development framework when I was with the Navy - by building template forms that were pre-defined to contain common "shells" of event code that every form was going to use, and they contained the main control buttons that most of my forms were going to use. In each case, the "overhead" part of the event routines was there, the data structures were in the form's class declaration area, etc. All I needed to do was make a copy of the form and rename it, then define the form's .RecordSource and start filling in the specific code. The forms ALL included _Open, _Load, _Current, _Close, _Unload, _BeforeUpdate, _AfterUpdate, _Error, _Exit, and _Enter events, plus command buttons for Close, Create, Delete, Update, Cancel, Help, and FileReport. The _Open routines had all the stuff needed for user security to be determined and tested. The _BeforeUpdate would test for whether the command buttons had been used or was it a "phantom update" - and thus would block "accidental" updates.

All I had to do was populate any details and the controls that went with the given .RecordSource. Yes, there was a LOT of overhead in each form. But I needed it and it was designed based on my goal, which included "look and feel" issues of behavioral uniformity. I.e. it looked like a single integrated product. Doing this cost a little bit of time, but I saved about 40% of the labor to finish each form. If you do the math, having the one extra template breaks even after the third form and turns a time profit on subsequent forms - of which I had over twenty.

There - is that the kind of discussion you were seeking?

 

[conception_native_0123]

There - is that the kind of discussion you were seeking?

yes i suppose so doc man, but really what i was getting at is that i'm a little disappointed that whenever i try to modify any given framework or code based heavily, it ends up being more trouble than it is worth. i think that's because these things are not designed to be modified anymore. it's all canned because of the base of people who are using them. they're not devs anymore, so dev'ing something from scratch is becoming a thing of the past.

your talk IS relevant, yes, but I was more or less looking for the nuiances that come with frameworks that we do not know exist. it seems to me that tech work is becoming nothing more than janitorial work. would you not agree? i would love for it to be creation work, but it just isn't anymore. it's becoming "pick up and learn after someone else". agree or not? and once again, it all seems to start in the big cities.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

tech work is becoming nothing more than janitorial work

When I started with my Navy job in 1988, I very quickly decided that my "informal" name would be "Sr. Systems Janitor" because it seemed like I was ALWAYS cleaning up someone's computer messes.

 

[conception_native_0123]

When I started with my Navy job in 1988, I very quickly decided that my "informal" name would be "Sr. Systems Janitor" because it seemed like I was ALWAYS cleaning up someone's computer messes.

You told me about that a long time ago on this board, along with telling everyone else

 

[conception_native_0123]

Don't you have anything to say about my complaint regarding framework and the simplistic nature of them that's causing other things to become complicated for no reason?

 

[The_Doc_Man]

No.