Blair Sells out UK (1 Viewer)

[Pauldohert]

Just a thing on enlargement - I have just had a Polish food store open up by me, and this morning saw my first sign translated into Polish also.

Those 99 (was it 99) plumbers are getting about a bit!

I have taken advatage this year of visa free travel to Poland - and for the few days I was in tourism Poland, thought it was a fantastic place and the locals where great.

I am a particular fan of the pole dancers, which to me says enlargement everytime.

 

[Mile-O]

I have taken advatage this year of visa free travel to Poland - and for the few days I was in tourism Poland, thought it was a fantastic place and the locals were great.

Where in Poland did you go? I spent four months (on and off) in Gdynia in the north. I'm guessing you went to Warsaw or Krakow?

 

[The Stoat]

Just curious, wouldn't it seem fit to get the existing EU working smoothly before other countries are allowed to join?

The problem is that the EU is like a Seesaw - i think you call then Teeter totters - it's only stable in one state. Add anything or take anything away and the balance shifts and you then need a new equilibrium to form. What's smooth for one configuration will not be smooth for another.

 

[KenHigg]

I can see the reason a poor / small country would want to join; the subsidies. Would the reason the current members want them to join is because it increases their political clout in world affairs?

 

[jsanders]

I can see the reason a poor / small country would want to join; the subsidies. Would the reason the current members want them to join is because it increases their political clout in world affairs?

And also for a duty free zone.

 

[The Stoat]

I can see the reason a poor / small country would want to join; the subsidies. Would the reason the current members want them to join is because it increases their political clout in world affairs?

I don't think the poor countries want subsidies they want cash to help rebuild their infrastructure - many of them are ex-eastern bloc. I think they also would like a say in events including subsidies that are currently available to the exisiting members - i.e. why should you have them? and they want the economic protection of the EU and the military protection of NATO - i still think they worry about Russia - and we'd rather they were on the inside pissing out than the outside pissing in. If they are tied in to the EU it means they are less likely to start wars with each other viz the Balkans.

 

[Pauldohert]

I was in Krakow for a week - just liked the feel of the place.

If I had the time and cash would explore places properly - Gdansk and Warsaw? Wheres the place to visit in Poland?

 

[KenHigg]

So the money thing is just a pc of the puzzle. How in the world does the EU ever agree on global politcal issues such as the war. When the UK did the Iraq thing, didn't they have to consult with some EU board? And it seems the UK did the Iraq thing in spite of most other major EO members - didn't that undermine the union?

 

[Mile-O]

Gdansk and Warsaw? Wheres the place to visit in Poland?

Well, having only really been to Gdynia I wouldn't know although I want to try all the main cities across the nation. I was up by Gdansk, the city next to Gdynia. There's another one there called Sopot. Collectively they are referred to as the tri-city area; effectively a small conurbation. There's a promontory of land there with a beach, called Hel. The best thing is the mix of old versus new and the Baltic wind whipping in on a January morning. I would liken Sopot to Blackpool.

 

[Pauldohert]

I was in Krakow in Jan - thank God there was no Baltic wind. Brrrrrr

I'll avoid Sopot!

 

[The Stoat]

So the money thing is just a pc of the puzzle. How in the world does the EU ever agree on global politcal issues such as the war. When the UK did the Iraq thing, didn't they have to consult with some EU board? And it seems the UK did the Iraq thing in spite of most other major EO members - didn't that undermine the union?

Ah at last. That's the point we've being making. The EU is not the US we don't agree and we have no system for forcing agreement or censuring those who don't agree. We are individual countries that come together on some matters of economics and law. The EU is not a country it's more like a club. For example there is no EU foreign policy. The EU doesn't raise taxes. There is no EU army. Some countries such as France and Germany want a Federal Europe. They call it a United states of Europe. Others such as the UK have always been opposed. Even a pro-european uk Government knows it would never win a vote on the issue. We -the people - wouldn't even want the Euro as it would bring us into too much economic reliance and remove too much control over our finances to the EU. Our main opposition party at the moment is always split about our involvement with Europe. If we had a vote tomorrow on leaving the EU i think it would be a very close run thing and unlike a state in the US we could secede from the union so to speak without causing a civil war

 

[KenHigg]

In the end then, it would seem to me to be an insurmountable task to separate fiscal matters from other politics and government concerns in general...

 

[The Stoat]

In the end then, it would seem to me to be an insurmountable task to separate fiscal matters from other politics and government concerns in general...

Our suspicion has been that the certain EU members are trying to bring about a federal Europe through greater economic ties. The problem is that we may be better off with closer economic ties but we don't want the political ones that go with them. As you say it's very difficult to seperate fiscal matters from political ones and so we'd rather forego the potential benefits of a fiscal union if it means we keep our sovereignty and national identity intact. What Chirac seems to fail to see is that when he tries to shaft the UK over something like the rebate we think why the F*** should we want to be more closely involved with them. We can't imagine a situation where the French would want to be involved in something that meant they'd have to compromise or lose out and that by default leaves us think we would be the losers.

 

[jsanders]

From my point of view there is something futuristic in the EU.

Namely that the world cannot go on with unabated trade. The idea that the EU can help stay the tide of cheep eastern goods will prove to be a huge advantage for the EU. When more and more living wage jobs leave America for India and China; the EU will be well on their way to preserving European jobs.
After all there is nothing more important for a government to do; then make it conducive for job growth.

 

[The Stoat]

From my point of view there is something futuristic in the EU.

Namely that the world cannot go on with unabated trade. The idea that the EU can help stay the tide of cheep eastern goods will prove to be a huge advantage for the EU. When more and more living wage jobs leave America for India and China; the EU will be well on their way to preserving European jobs.
After all there is nothing more important for a government to do; then make it conducive for job growth.

But can you see the irony in that statement. The US has been the main proponent of free trade and now it's coming to bite the US people on their butts. Business has applied the free market principles to their logical conclusion. Is not profit king? And not only that it is now damaging other economies, no-one is immune from this. The EU does set import quotas but if businesses see a profit to be made then they'll leave - and they are doing - and in the end we will have to let the goods in as they will only be available from the outside. There are checks and balances in a normal economy but China is different it can keep capital out of workers hands, keep them poor and so they don't demand high wages which would eventually balance out the cycle. I can't understand why the US helps them so much? I suspect that what the US government wanted was a silent economic revolution to undermine the Communist one. I think they've badly misjudged the strength of the Chinese governments control. Eventually if we have no money then we can't by Chinese goods no matter how cheap so they'll go bust as the Tiger economies did and the cycle will balance eventually but it will be bl**dy painful.

 

[KenHigg]

It all sounds a bit suspicious to me. Every time there is a cloudy issue, the politicians mouths must water...

 

[emcf]

Our suspicion has been that the certain EU members are trying to bring about a federal Europe through greater economic ties. The problem is that we may be better off with closer economic ties but we don't want the political ones that go with them. As you say it's very difficult to seperate fiscal matters from political ones and so we'd rather forego the potential benefits of a fiscal union if it means we keep our sovereignty and national identity intact. What Chirac seems to fail to see is that when he tries to shaft the UK over something like the rebate we think why the F*** should we want to be more closely involved with them. We can't imagine a situation where the French would want to be involved in something that meant they'd have to compromise or lose out and that by default leaves us think we would be the losers.

pretty spot on thestoat - the main problem as i see it is trying to get 13 or 20 or 25 sovereign countries to let unelected (mostly) bureaucrats control the levers of power in a way not conducive to the needs or wants of the individual countries. each country has its own view on what works or what is right in their minds.

for example, the uk is outside of the Euro at the moment for two main reasons:

1) the political significance of ending sterling and adopting the euro - a sure sign that the uk would be more in europe than out of it.
2) the fiscal cycles of the uk and euroland are not aligned - euroland interest rates are now at 2.25% while the uk is at 4.5%. imagine what inflation would be like if we had joined the euro and had european interest rates???

the european union does have its problems (inefficiency, unaccountability, fraud, disparities) but i do believe it is the right way to go, although at our pace and on acceptable terms. I think Blair did all he could to get an acceptable budget - it was right to increase uk contributions to help pay for the new joiners and hopefully the political pressure will now fall on france to wean itself of the CAP.

 

[KenHigg]

So in a sense, the EU is buying up countries?

 

[Rich]

The US has been reducing subsidies to farmers for years and now for the first time US imports of agricultural products equaled our exports. 56 billion dollars.

Your cotton farmers still receive appr. $4 billion a year in government subsidies, doesn't seem much to me like free trade

 

[jsanders]

Your cotton farmers still receive appr. $4 billion a year in government subsidies, doesn't seem much to me like free trade

I said it being reduced; please read my post with the same accuracy with which they are written.