How many genders are there? How many should there be?
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NauticalGent
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2 and only 2. I will not pretend otherwise so that others can feel better about themselves
NauticalGent
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To some I suppose they are. Each person can decide for themselves...and...as an ET, I can operate with near impunity!
NauticalGent
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Then I would offer you a beer and introduce you to some interesting members we have
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If you want to find an older "take" on this subject, may I respectfully recommend Robert A. Heinlein's I Will Fear No Evil - a story about a person who, in a future society, is in such a terrible accident that the only way to save the man's life is to give him a brain transplant into a body of someone who died in a way that killed the donor's brain but left the body intact. Due to blood type and other considerations, the only available body at the time is female. So the guy wakes up in a full-on female body. Then things get a little crazy considering that he was wealthy and now the courts have to go through a process that certifies his (her?) access to the money.
During this story Heinlein proposed eight genders based on sexual patterns of behavior. Myself? I recognize two sets of plumbing but don't recognize that plumbing is the end of the discussion.
Heinlein counted at least eight genders based on behavior and plumbing. Gay male, straight male, gay female, straight female, asexual with either set of plumbing, and bisexual with either set of plumbing. Beyond his eight categories, I don't quite know how to count true hermaphroditism. However, Heinlein took on THAT problem as well with a time-travel story called "By His Bootstraps" which will give you SUCH a headache if you tried to figure out how a particular person came into existence. It is a migraine-level head-twister.
The reason for me counting that many genders is that we have to remember that the plumbing isn't everything. The brain is the most powerful sex organ. If talking about sexual issues, it gives us "stop" and "go" orders regardless of the plumbing. I have posted elsewhere in this site about how to see the research that proves that there can be a strong physical component of homosexuality. Short answer: Research "homosexual + brain scan" and look at some UK medical research articles involving Positron Emission Tomography.
Having read the evidence and having talked to many gays over the years (including my gay step-daughter), I am convinced that limiting the definition of gender to just two alternatives is too narrow a viewpoint. You can talk about "sex-assigned-at-birth" but that is done because there is this pesky little box on the birth certificate that is not supposed to be left blank. So the doctors take a guess at a time when the little new-born person has lived less than 0.01% of its life and has not yet had a chance to express any preferences whatsoever.
During this story Heinlein proposed eight genders based on sexual patterns of behavior. Myself? I recognize two sets of plumbing but don't recognize that plumbing is the end of the discussion.
Heinlein counted at least eight genders based on behavior and plumbing. Gay male, straight male, gay female, straight female, asexual with either set of plumbing, and bisexual with either set of plumbing. Beyond his eight categories, I don't quite know how to count true hermaphroditism. However, Heinlein took on THAT problem as well with a time-travel story called "By His Bootstraps" which will give you SUCH a headache if you tried to figure out how a particular person came into existence. It is a migraine-level head-twister.
The reason for me counting that many genders is that we have to remember that the plumbing isn't everything. The brain is the most powerful sex organ. If talking about sexual issues, it gives us "stop" and "go" orders regardless of the plumbing. I have posted elsewhere in this site about how to see the research that proves that there can be a strong physical component of homosexuality. Short answer: Research "homosexual + brain scan" and look at some UK medical research articles involving Positron Emission Tomography.
Having read the evidence and having talked to many gays over the years (including my gay step-daughter), I am convinced that limiting the definition of gender to just two alternatives is too narrow a viewpoint. You can talk about "sex-assigned-at-birth" but that is done because there is this pesky little box on the birth certificate that is not supposed to be left blank. So the doctors take a guess at a time when the little new-born person has lived less than 0.01% of its life and has not yet had a chance to express any preferences whatsoever.
What you describe now should not be "genders" ,one person physically can only be 1 of the 2 options.
Sure you can be attracted to one or both or none other option.
Even chromosomes will tell you that... Human cells have 23 pairs of chromosomes (22 pairs of autosomes and one pair of sex chromosomes)
So unless someone is getting some kind of evolution that increase the amount of sex chromosomes, one pair is all we have.
Sure you can be attracted to one or both or none other option.
Even chromosomes will tell you that... Human cells have 23 pairs of chromosomes (22 pairs of autosomes and one pair of sex chromosomes)
So unless someone is getting some kind of evolution that increase the amount of sex chromosomes, one pair is all we have.
AccessBlaster
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Male, Female and Jamie Lee Curtis so three.
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If you take an absolutist viewpoint, you lose the ability to describe human sexual behavior. You can qualify your statement as "anatomically male" but even that is questionable in light of the fact that the brain is part of human anatomy and it seems to be involved in gender behavior. The articles I mentioned would point out that there IS such a thing as a "male" brain and a "female" brain from structural considerations. They would also point out that when you have a wiring/plumbing mismatch you have homosexuality. These people are male or female based on their brain structure and the fact of having the wrong genitals doesn't help matters at all.
I just tend to take an inclusive viewpoint, trying not to limit people - because when it comes to people, one size DOES NOT fit all.
I just tend to take an inclusive viewpoint, trying not to limit people - because when it comes to people, one size DOES NOT fit all.
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Earlier today, while in my coffeeshop having my daily cappa to keep my brain awake, I posted this thread. An hour later, a transgendered person came in. I decided to join their table! I told them I had a thread running on how many genders there are, and I posed them some tricky questions. They were very smart and well informed on all the issues, and it was an enlightening experience.
Here they are:
If you have any questions on what their opinion was regarding transgendered issues and gender counts, let me know and I will tell you what they said.
Here they are:
If you have any questions on what their opinion was regarding transgendered issues and gender counts, let me know and I will tell you what they said.
I can only agree with that. But that doesn't change your "gender", you are either "male" of "female" anatomically or mentally.
But walking in a bar and telling people that today I am a boy and next day I will be a girl is crazy and limit schizophrenic...
I don't believe people are born with a "robot" brain or any of those 20 other gender nonsense..
We are not slugs who can change their gender when it is convenient.
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Ah, Grumm - you perhaps don't see the deeper issue.
People are adaptable to the point that they can live a lie. Take a look at deep-cover spies and long-term fugitives. Take a look at illegal aliens. They all adapt to a situation that hides their reality. Take a look at "wage slaves" who go to a constantly frustrating job because it is what they have to do to keep the wolf away from the door, even though they would MUCH prefer some other line of work. These people open themselves to a life of permanent paranoia, waiting for that tap on the shoulder that is reality, come at last to take you in and expose your secrets, to end that life of unstable equilibrium. We need not consider the parallels for those who rigorously proclaim the coming of judgment from religious points of view, but the paranoia is similar.
Consider the case for my gay stepdaughter. She tried to live within ideals imposed by her father (my wife's 1st husband) by dating guys, but she discovered they did nothing for her emotionally. She eventually recognized her preferences didn't follow socially normative behavior. She liked girls. Her biological grandfather pretty much disowned her when she came out and cut her out of any inheritance. Her father did almost the same except he is still alive and spending his money on his 3rd wife's kid. My stepdaughter was ostracized within the father's side of the family because of the intransigence of country Catholicism. My wife and I, on the other hand, look at character first. So for us, the fact that she got a good job, a good education, and served her country in the USAF, and now has a stable home and relationship are all FAR more important than the plumbing on her partner. And her partner is an honest and caring woman, which helps.
One of my good friends from a long-running D&D campaign was gay. He told me that he was about 16 or 17 when he realized he was gay. Before that, it had never been an issue. I would say that it never came up, but that isn't true. It came up at awkward moments but he was able to handle it.
One of my best friends from college, who was also my partner in the tournament-level game Duplicate Bridge, came out to me one day when we were coming back from an afternoon bridge session. She was nearly in tears because everyone - including her own sister - was asking her when she and I would get married. The constant questions had stressed her out. I hadn't asked her about marriage at all and probably wouldn't have done so anyway for reasons unrelated to her gender preferences. When she finished her story, she said we couldn't get married. I asked if we could still be friends and another round of tears started to flow. But during her self-outing session, she admitted that she had realized the truth about herself as a younger person in junior high, perhaps 7th or 8th grade. Her own older sister did not know at the time that E finally came out to me, even though they had lived together for over 20 years by then.
Therefore, Grumm, I must correct you on a fine point. It is not that these people change their gender when it is convenient. The change is that they choose to make public that which they have known for some time, something they have been hiding because of social pressure to conform to rigid ways of thinking that were making them live a lie. The change was the advent of honesty. What was that Shakespeare quote? "This above all: to thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any man."
I have to admit I don't understand the "robot" comment but will leave it to you to either explain or not as you see fit.
People are adaptable to the point that they can live a lie. Take a look at deep-cover spies and long-term fugitives. Take a look at illegal aliens. They all adapt to a situation that hides their reality. Take a look at "wage slaves" who go to a constantly frustrating job because it is what they have to do to keep the wolf away from the door, even though they would MUCH prefer some other line of work. These people open themselves to a life of permanent paranoia, waiting for that tap on the shoulder that is reality, come at last to take you in and expose your secrets, to end that life of unstable equilibrium. We need not consider the parallels for those who rigorously proclaim the coming of judgment from religious points of view, but the paranoia is similar.
Consider the case for my gay stepdaughter. She tried to live within ideals imposed by her father (my wife's 1st husband) by dating guys, but she discovered they did nothing for her emotionally. She eventually recognized her preferences didn't follow socially normative behavior. She liked girls. Her biological grandfather pretty much disowned her when she came out and cut her out of any inheritance. Her father did almost the same except he is still alive and spending his money on his 3rd wife's kid. My stepdaughter was ostracized within the father's side of the family because of the intransigence of country Catholicism. My wife and I, on the other hand, look at character first. So for us, the fact that she got a good job, a good education, and served her country in the USAF, and now has a stable home and relationship are all FAR more important than the plumbing on her partner. And her partner is an honest and caring woman, which helps.
One of my good friends from a long-running D&D campaign was gay. He told me that he was about 16 or 17 when he realized he was gay. Before that, it had never been an issue. I would say that it never came up, but that isn't true. It came up at awkward moments but he was able to handle it.
One of my best friends from college, who was also my partner in the tournament-level game Duplicate Bridge, came out to me one day when we were coming back from an afternoon bridge session. She was nearly in tears because everyone - including her own sister - was asking her when she and I would get married. The constant questions had stressed her out. I hadn't asked her about marriage at all and probably wouldn't have done so anyway for reasons unrelated to her gender preferences. When she finished her story, she said we couldn't get married. I asked if we could still be friends and another round of tears started to flow. But during her self-outing session, she admitted that she had realized the truth about herself as a younger person in junior high, perhaps 7th or 8th grade. Her own older sister did not know at the time that E finally came out to me, even though they had lived together for over 20 years by then.
Therefore, Grumm, I must correct you on a fine point. It is not that these people change their gender when it is convenient. The change is that they choose to make public that which they have known for some time, something they have been hiding because of social pressure to conform to rigid ways of thinking that were making them live a lie. The change was the advent of honesty. What was that Shakespeare quote? "This above all: to thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any man."
I have to admit I don't understand the "robot" comment but will leave it to you to either explain or not as you see fit.
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The slugs need to double their chances because after they hook up, they have to spend some time deciding who will do what to whom.
AccessBlaster
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If kids are to young to give consent and cannot vote drive or drink why do we allow them to change their gender surgically or other wise. They can't even enter into a contract as a minor. Yet they can alter their orientation.
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AB, I don't disagree that "gender confirmation" surgeries for folks under legal age of consent are a bit much. However, as stated previously, several of my gay friends knew their preferences while in their early teens. Some folks can live without the surgery. However, there are others for whom there is that nagging feeling that they were "born into the wrong body." I've known a couple of those, too. I cannot argue with adults who go through such a change, even though it makes me shiver to think about it. In a way, that shiver is a side effect that lets me confirm my own gender preference.
