Sale of P&O to Dubai Ports World (1 Viewer)

[Pat Hartman]

Has this made headlines in the UK or anywhere outside the US? I wonder what the Brits have to say about the UAE controlling operations at their ports. Several state goveners are initiating lawsuits to prevent the takeover.

I'm sure that the UAE is our "good" friend. Despite the fact that two of the 9/11 hijackers came from there and they allow shipment of black market nuculear products through their country. I simply object to a foreign government having control of our ports. I object to foreign companies having control of our ports also but not as strongly.

PS, Dubai has some of the coolest construction projects in the world. You can see pictures on the web.
1. They recently completed an indoor ski slope. It's not much more than a bunny slope but it does have a a chair lift.
2. They are developing three man-made offshore island clusters. Two are shaped like palm trees and one is designed to look like the earth when viewed from above. If you have enough money, you can buy the UK or New Jersey.

 

[wazz]

here is some very interesting info.

this issue is also touched on in part of this interview.

 

[Pauldohert]

I presume you want th US companies to give back the control of movement of goods and information they have throughout the world?

 

[Rich]

I presume you want th US companies to give back the control of movement of goods and information they have throughout the world?

Look, don't you understand, terrorists are shipping Iraqs missing WMD to the US on a daily basis.
They're quite clearly shown in action here
http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/directory/a/american_gun_culture.asp

 

[Pauldohert]

The feelings the US has about the foreign powers having control over their ports may explain the feelings Muslim countries have about the US taking over military bases, airports, and indeed whole countries (supported by the UK).

At least the US ports are legal, commercial operations.

The same cannot be said of US military occupations?

 

[Rich]

I see British Gas is being targeted by a Russian company, I'm not sure which poses the greatest threat to our well being, the Ruskies or the Arabs ?

 

[Pauldohert]

Whats the full name of P & O -

I wonder if they have always had foreign interests to their country of ownership?

 

[ColinEssex]

I see British Gas is being targeted by a Russian company, I'm not sure which poses the greatest threat to our well being, the Ruskies or the Arabs ?

Well the Ruskies have started to take over our football clubs

The Arabs control our oil - remember what a panic ensued when the Saudi's cut production?

The Americans control our Prime Minister.

The Australians control our newspapers.

The Chinese own MG Rover and the Germans own Rolls Royce.

Plus (and most importantly) the Chinese own our local chip shop

Col

 

[Rich]

Whats the full name of P & O -

The Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company

 

[Pat Hartman]

I'm sorry this thread turned into America bashing. I don't think you got the point.
Pauldohert,

I presume you want th US companies to give back the control of movement of goods and information they have throughout the world?

Last I heard, there aren't mobs of Americans dancing in the street, waiving their automatic weapons in the air, and shouting death to the Brits!
Rich,

Look, don't you understand, terrorists are shipping Iraqs missing WMD to the US on a daily basis.

I would expect no less from you. When a people have sworn to destroy you if they can, why give them easier access? Notice I didn't say easy access.

Don't forget, if P & O operates ports in your company, they are also being turned over to our good friends from Dubai. DPW isn't a puplicly owned corporation, it is owned by the government itself. Governments have other agendas than just profit and if it comes to a conflict of interest, there is certainly no question of whose interest would prevail.

 

[Rich]

I would expect no less from you. When a people have sworn to destroy you if they can, why give them easier access? Notice I didn't say easy access.

I guess I don't understand the problem, are you saying that all those currently responsible for security at ports, ie Customs, police etc. etc. are going to be replaced by Arabs.
Surely the only thing they'll own other than the title is bricks and mortar?

 

[wazz]

i can't tell who's joking around here and who isn't so i'll skip it except to ask, has anyone checked out the links i posted?

from the first link:
- dubai ports world has postponed the bid for now
- there are about 12-15 major ports; of those there are approx 3-10 terminals each so there are about 100 existing u.s. terminals
- of the 100 existing u.s. terminals: 8 are run by us-owned co's and about 12 by local municipalities or states and about 80% are (currently) run by foreign-owned companies
- dubai ports world is state-owned, but this is not unusual
- compares the ports to airports/airlines - which are all foreign owned and operated - that fly in and out of the country regularly with no checks whatsoever
- security of the port would be done first by the owner (dubai or whoever) but then the coast guard and customs, etc etc
- the interviewer checked fact after fact after fact and said that he has never covered a subject where the public debate is so far away from the facts (it's a non-story)

 

[Pat Hartman]

The real problem wazz is that America is selling off its infrstructure. We are becoming totally dependant on other countries for manufactured goods. As an example, we can't supply our soldiers in Iraq with ammo. We need to buy it from France. We buy the uniforms for our border patrol from Mexico. Both France and Mexico are friends. Ok at least Mexico is our "friend" but the Mexican government has a vested interest in having their nationals working in the US. Mexican nationals living in the US (both legal and illegal) send more money into the Mexican economy than any other source of foreign trade. How hard would it be to embed one of those new micro transmitters that are showing up everywhere in the uniforms? It sure would be nice to know where those nasty border patrol officiers are so Mexicans sneaking across can avoid them.

DPW hasn't posponed the purchase. That is still going to happen this week. What they have done is to postpone taking over the US ports to allow for the 45 day review so congress can reassure themselves that the sale should be approved. The problem is that the sale at that point would be already consumated and it would require a lawsuit and lots of red tape to undo.

 

[wazz]

The real problem wazz is that America is selling off its infrstructure. We are becoming totally dependant on other countries for manufactured goods.
DPW hasn't posponed the purchase. That is still going to happen this week. What they have done is to postpone taking over the US ports to allow for the 45 day review so congress can reassure themselves that the sale should be approved. The problem is that the sale at that point would be already consumated and it would require a lawsuit and lots of red tape to undo.

i think that if there were a local company that could do the job (and afford it...) it would - if it is worth it. but there isn't. the sale to a foreign company is inevitable and not a big shift - if a shift at all - in the status quo. what does this have to do with manufactured goods?

 

[Pat Hartman]

It's past my bed time so I may not be making any sense. It doesn't have anything to do with manufacturing except to be part of the the general outsourcing and sale of US assets. I don't belive that any foreign company, even a non-government owned one, should be in control of a vital asset.

Keep in mind that the US, being a free country, places little or no restriction on foreign ownership of US property or companies but much of the world doesn't reciprocate including Dubai. Neither the US government nor a non-Dubai owned company could purchase a similar asset there.

Does Malaysia place any restrictions on foreign ownership?

 

[wazz]

Does Malaysia place any restrictions on foreign ownership?

it's a difficult topic and situation.

i wish i knew more about the business world here. i'm "just" an employee (of a very small part of a very big company). i'm pretty sure there are pretty serious restrictions here. there are pretty serious restrictions on malaysians themselves depending on their ethnic background (!) arising out of indiginous rights and loss of rights etc during colonial times, etc etc.

i think the world is in the midst of a very long teething phase as:
- we in the west slowly escape the infancy of mechanization and experience longer and better lives
- the rest of the world (very slowly) discovers the benefits and the trappings of ownership and wealth
- we, in (or of) the west, especially, watch what is going on with better skills and understanding than most (see ken's on a more postive note... thread)

sweet dreams

 

[Pauldohert]

Pat,

The point is you don't want US ports controlled by foreign companies definately not foreign goverments and definately not foreign and muslim goverments?

(I would assume the ports still operate under US law, so control is largely still with the US?)

I have no problem with that if the US extended the same rights to others -

You seem to be saying the the US feels the UAE a threat so this justifies your concern - my point is that muslim countries see the US as a threat - the US has invaded two of them at least in the last 10 years. They are now totally controlled by foreign Christian companies and goverments. (Influenced by a powerful Jewish community)

There are Americans in Muslim countries killing Muslims?? Government sponsored I may add. Far more innocent muslims are killed by the US than vice versa.

The way you see a threat of muslim goverments owning a US port, mulitiply that threat and you may have an idea how a muslim country feels with US military all over it, controling everything, the government, the law, the jobs, the ports, the lot.

You don't think certain muslims see the US as an evil empire, or the UK and US as the Axis of Evil.

I haven't missed the point. There may be other arguments over the ownership of US ports - but the one I raised should not be overlooked - except at the US's own peril.


You should see that the UAE has an interest in the prosperity of the US, and vice versa as a good thing.

You can prosper together.

 

[Rich]

You have more experience of working for Arabs Pat, is there something you haven't told us ?

 

[Brianwarnock]

I'm with Pat on the principle involved here. Too much of our industry and infrastructure has been sold into foreign hands, I remember Belgium refusing to sell us ammunition during the Falklands campaign, now we are having to equipe our new aircraft carriers with either French or US planes and the US are refusing to give us the weapon command codes??

Large chunks of our power and water supplies are in the hands of Europeans and we have seen what that means for gas supplies and prices, it goes on and on but then our Parliament has been sold to Brussels, witness the Labour politicians getting on the gravy train.

Brian

 

[Pat Hartman]

You have more experience of working for Arabs Pat, is there something you haven't told us ?

I have nothing but good things to say about my year in Kuwait. The Kuwaitis were welcoming (except for one very short, very wide, older lady and that's a very funny story) and generous to a fault. Although I would not want to spend the rest of my life there, I would do it again in a heartbeat. I have no personal ill feelings about Arabs or Muslims in general, in fact at a personal level, it is just the opposite. As a class of people, I have much more of a problem. I am offended that when something bad happens here, all of our news shows run clips of Arabs dancing in the streets waving their automatic weapons in the air and cheering. It is really hard to not be affected by that sight especially when the moderates are typically silent.

My opinion regarding unrest in the Middle East (just in case anyone wants to hear it), especially with the Palestinians, is that it is largely caused by their views on nationality. When WWI ended (and all other wars before it) and the Treaty of Versailles redrew the map of the Middle East, you were whatever nationality you were depending on what side of a border you ended up on. You didn't loose your rights as a citizen. That didn't happen with the partitioning of Palestine. The displaced Palestinians (who, according to my understanding, left voluntarily) ended up as people without a country. They have now lived in refugee camps for generations. They are not citizens of the countries in which they reside nor can they ever be. Of course they want to drive Israel into the sea. I would too. If they had been absorbed in 1948, we wouldn’t have the crisis we have today. There would have still been bad feelings but the displaced would have gotten on with their lives. Now there is no solution but to give them a country they can call their own.

How does the Palestinian problem factor into my opinion of the DPW take over of P & O you might ask? As I mentioned earlier, the Muslims are generous to a fault (you need to be careful not to admire anything of theirs or they are likely to try to give it to you). One of the pillars of Islam is helping those less fortunate than yourself. So, there are lots of charity organizations that collect money for various causes including education. The problem is that too much of this money ended up funding schools that taught two things – the Koran and hatred of the west, America in particular. The result is that we have at least two generations of mostly poor people educated in those madras’s who are happy to die if it means taking a western devil with them. And, some of those people live in Dubai as evidenced by two of the 9/11 hijackers.

I would be against ANY foreign government owning ANY vital American asset. I am less unhappy about a foreign company owing American assets but if you ask me, it is simply stupid to let your avowed enemies guard your gates. Yes, yes, the UAE in principle is our friend. And yes, they are ONLY taking over terminals not total port security, BUT in the position of terminal managers, they are privy to port security procedures and that is a security risk in MYHO. The terminal operators are the last buffer between the outside world and the US and they also require security. This whole issue has brought to public attention the fact that 80% of US ports are controlled by non-US companies. Is this just more type of work that Americans don’t want to do so we outsource it to cheap foreign labor?
If I were king, I would inform the foreign companies that own any critical US asset that they had a year to sell out to an American company at fair market value or we would nationalize their business. In the future, I would look at a particular country’s policy regarding foreign investment. If they place restrictions on foreign investment, we would apply those same restrictions on their investment in American companies/land.

I remember Belgium refusing to sell us ammunition during the Falklands campaign, now we are having to equip our new aircraft carriers with either French or US planes and the US are refusing to give us the weapon command codes??

And we’re your BEST friends? If this is the kind of thing that happens between friends, what happens when we’re not quite best friends?