Orlando Shootings (3 Viewers)

Brianwarnock

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I have tried to stay away from this thread as over time it has become clear that the arguments of the anti gun control crowd have become ridiculous, even by obviously otherwise intelligent people.
will somebody please show me the definition where control = ban.

Brian
 

Mark_

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When you get down to it. Those who are politically inside the pro-control movement may themselves desire to illegally acquire guns despite their assumed disdain for owning such weapons and their public persona of being against the personal ownership of guns.

Here is a better example.
 

Dick7Access

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I have tried to stay away from this thread as over time it has become clear that the arguments of the anti gun control crowd have become ridiculous, even by obviously otherwise intelligent people.
will somebody please show me the definition where control = ban.

Brian
Did ban in UK start with ban, or did it start with control? Just asking. I don't know.

BTW:Brian I stayed away from this thread for just the same reason, but on the other side of the coin
 

The_Doc_Man

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scott-atkinson said:
Control of weapons would work if you ensured that the undesirable elements in society, you know the Murderous Tendancy ones, cannot get hold of a weapon

Brianwarnock said:
will somebody please show me the definition where control = ban.

You CAN'T ensure that the undesirable elements can't get a gun since those are the elements that thumb their noses at ANY laws standing their way. If someone wants a gun, they steal one from someone who legally has one. Using knives, lead pipes, or baseball bats on sleeping individuals whose household security isn't 100% impervious.

Therefore, one way to control the Murderous Tendency cases and prevent them from getting a gun illegally is to ban ALL guns and confiscate them so that none are exposed to theft. THAT is how 'control' becomes 'ban' in a heartbeat.

There are other ways to prevent these undesirables from getting guns. You COULD just start looking at folks to decide if they are undesirables and then lock them up on concentration camps or just outright kill them BEFORE they graduate to stealing guns. Of course, if you have an original thought that conflicts with current government policy, YOU become an undesirable. Hope you have that gun as a deterrent.

Seems to me that when Hitler ordered all privately held guns to be confiscated, it was because he didn't want people shooting back at the cops or military trying to arrest the non-Aryans. Which led to some pretty serious government atrocities because nobody was able to resist effectively when the folks that Hitler didn't desire got sent to concentration camps or death camps.

That actually happened starting a little over 75 years ago. Those who refuse to understand history are doomed to repeat it.
 

NauticalGent

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Some levity...
 

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Mark_

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@ NG, down side is there are those who won't understand the reference. Of course for myself, Pink Floyd Dry isn't as good... :)
 

Minty

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@NG
Dial the combination, open the priest hole
And if I'm in I'll tell you (what's behind the wall)
 

Dick7Access

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Did ban in UK start with ban, or did it start with control? Just asking. I don't know.

BTW:Brian I stayed away from this thread for just the same reason, but on the other side of the coin

Since no one has come forward with an answer to my ban/control question is probably a good bet control came first. So my next question are stun guns banded in UK? Just asking, I don't know. https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/m...mendment-stun-gun-court/2018/04/17/id/854984/
 

Mark_

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The answer is simple... Those who do not believe they will be directly affected have no issues with taking the liberties of others so that they themselves may feel more secure. If you are not directly affected by a ban on, say, personal helicopters and you hear about people getting killed by helicopter crashes, you'd be easily influenced to go along with strict regulation and banning of non-government owned helicopters.

Now replace "Helicopter" with most any other item. If you are told they kill people and that only the government should have them, you go along with restrictions or bans so long as they do not impact you personally.

Evil people have understood this for a very long time. It IS how mass murderers come to power. One of the least stable did so after being put in charge of the agenda's for party meetings.
 

DickyP

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The problem with this subject is that common sense doesn't apply at so many levels. And we all have the 'correct' answer don't we?

Gun control doesn't seem to work as it just put guns into the hands of criminals. See my earlier post about gun laws in UK.

Weapon control laws aren't thought through: in UK it is illegal to shoot a bow and arrow at any living creature EXCEPT at humans! For the latter you have to show intent, or actually hit them.

In the USA you'd need to uninvent guns as there are so many millions of firearms gun laws would only prevent buying new guns and do nothing about existing ones.

Personally as I was a soldier for 32 years I loved shooting, but now as a civilian it is virtually impossible to shoot as a pastime.
 

ColinEssex

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Another complication in the USA is that nothing seems to be made law by Washington, each state makes their own laws so you could get 50 different laws regarding gun usage. At least, that's what it seems to me.
You have to wonder what does the President actually do? Any directive appears to be either implemented or rejected by the different state governments.
Col
 

The_Doc_Man

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Another complication in the USA is that nothing seems to be made law by Washington, each state makes their own laws so you could get 50 different laws regarding gun usage. At least, that's what it seems to me.
You have to wonder what does the President actually do? Any directive appears to be either implemented or rejected by the different state governments.
Col

Col, many people do not understand the USA form of government even as it was intended, but let's not talk about what it has become. I will try to help you understand what goes on here.

The US Constitution defines three sets of rights.

The first set of rights belongs to the federal (national) government. This includes the right to make treaties, establish governmental agencies with federal scope, coin money, raise an army, manage interstate commerce, and a few other things. There is a clause that says the federal government has the exclusive right to do the things enumerated as its powers. The states are not supposed to step in on federal issues. In this mix, it is CONGRESS that makes laws, not the president.

The second set of rights belongs to the states because the term "United States of America" is not window dressing. It is a functional term, because technically we were formed as an ALLIANCE of states that granted some powers to form a federal government (see previous paragraph). Think of the European Union as a corresponding structure. Many powers were explicitly reserved to the states by the US Constitution. Your comment about 50 different laws (you said "on guns" but it is actually on damned near any subject) is spot-on. Driving age, marriage age, various kinds of taxes, criminal and civil law, and even labor law to some degree are all in the range of state laws. My home state of Louisiana, because of its French heritage, still has vestiges of the Napoleonic Code as oppose to common English law roots. However, it has mostly adopted U.S. Common Business Code for most things. Our inheritance laws still more strongly protect the family than some states do.

The third set of rights are those rights explicitly granted to the people. The first 10 amendments to the U.S. Constitution came into being because the representatives to the first Continental Congress (that started to form the new government in the late 1700s) could not secure enough votes until they placed certain hard-and-fast guarantees in writing. Those first 10 amendments enumerated rights and protections belonging to the people and theoretically not removable by the government.

Now, back to the issue of guns. Your concerns intertwine with the 2nd amendment of the U.S. Constitution, which includes a clause "The right of the people to keep and to bear arms shall not be infringed." We are currently involved in probably dozens of state-vs-federal lawsuits in which states have tried to set up regulations on gun ownership, but this is one of those issues that is a legal mine-field due to that originally absolutist language. We COULD amend the constitution but nobody has succeeded in making an amendment that would curtail gun rights.

You also asked about what the President does. I will avoid the typical snarky comments about our current president and give a more general answer. The president's duty is that when Congress proposes a law, he is supposed to verify that proper procedures were followed and then he can sign the proposed law into full legal force. Or he can refer the proposed law to the court system if he believes there is a legal conflict. The president also oversees the actions of various executive-branch agencies that help him in whatever those agencies do. He is the commander-in-chief of ALL federal military forces and can issue commands for rapid response to an act of war. He has a few other enumerated powers and responsibilities such as appointing federal judges subject to Congressional approval.
 

Pat Hartman

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Another complication in the USA is that nothing seems to be made law by Washington, each state makes their own laws so you could get 50 different laws regarding gun usage. At least, that's what it seems to me.
That's the whole point. I know it seems confusing to the rest of the world but there is consistency (in theory) regarding cer
Presidents do not make laws.
Because - if he did, he would be a dictator. Even your King doesn't make laws. Presidents do get to make "temporary" laws. In theory they expire when his term ends or Congress solves the problem with something permanent. Except, for Trump, he couldn't cancel any of Obama's Executive orders.
 

Pat Hartman

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The third set of rights are those rights explicitly granted to the people.
That phrase is backwards. All rights belong to the people. Some rights are specifically granted to the federal government (mostly our interaction with the world), some rights are granted to the states, the rest are reserved for the people. Sadly, you don't even have to ever have read the Constitution to be elected to Congress or the Presidency. You can tell by the stupid bills that Congress passes and the President signs as well as the things dictators like Biden do such as his perpetual vote getting tactic of promising to cancel college debt - which the Supremes have already ruled that he CANNOT do. I think this is his 3rd or 4th different end run around the Constitution. He really needs the votes of the stupid college kids. The Supremes are expected to have a complete knowledge of the Constitution but they don't have to be able to define what a Woman is. And given some of their rulings, they also failed Constitution 101.
 

ColinEssex

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Even your King doesn't make laws.
True.
But we do have a government with a Prime Minister who makes and amends laws applicable to the whole country so it is consistent wherever you go in the country, unlike the USA who appear to have 50 governments, so if you travel interstate you could be legal in one state and illegal for something in another state. How do you learn all 50 states legalities to avoid arrest?
Col
 

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