Racism & Patriotism - Can they be similar?

[ColinEssex]

There was a TV debate on the other night about this.

One chap said that usually the two are running in parallel, but when an event happens, generated by a nation / religion / sect etc. then other innocent people of the same genre are tarred with the same brush and can generate racism against the perpetrators country or creed.
Patriotism usually means people of the country band together and voice themselves to protect and defend against the wrongdoer.

Is this a fair comment or not? Are we all a bit racist just beneath the surface? Most people would say no - until an event happens that triggers a retaliation.

Discuss.

Col

 

[oumahexi]

My personal opinion is no. They are not the same and should not be confused. I get riled when people associate the flying of a Union Jack with racism, simply because a few yobs choose to fly the flag while heralding abuse at anyone who is not the same as them.

Deep down inside I think we all can be prejudice in the real sense of the word, in as much as we are all guilty of pre judging people on first impressions or appearances. I'm not sure if it's racist. I know a lot of people who are prejudice against people with ginger hair, fat people etc, regardless of their colour (race).

 

[Vassago]

My personal opinion is no. They are not the same and should not be confused. I get riled when people associate the flying of a Union Jack with racism, simply because a few yobs choose to fly the flag while heralding abuse at anyone who is not the same as them.

Deep down inside I think we all can be prejudice in the real sense of the word, in as much as we are all guilty of pre judging people on first impressions or appearances. I'm not sure if it's racist. I know a lot of people who are prejudice against people with ginger hair, fat people etc, regardless of their colour (race).

I agree. I don't think it's so much racism as it is hate in general. A lot of people in the US do use patriotism as an excuse for their hate toward others because of their nationality, race, religion, sexual preference, etc... but most seem to understand the difference. I see the same in other countries toward Americans for example. Prejudging others based on their own stance on any of these items is simply hate and ignorance, not patriotism.

 

[Adam Caramon]

Is this a fair comment or not? Are we all a bit racist just beneath the surface?

Yes. For most people I think it is sub conscious, but people prefer to be around those they consider to be like themselves.

 

[Vassago]

Yes. For most people I think it is sub conscious, but people prefer to be around those they consider to be like themselves.

That's where I differ. If I was around someone like me, I'd end up killing them or they'd end up killing me.

 

[ColinEssex]

I know a lot of people who are prejudice against people with ginger hair.

Well you are Scottish

Seriously though, many Scots people hate the English with a passion and would only consider the Scottish flag as the correct flag.

Is that racist or patriotic?

Col

 

[Vassago]

Well you are Scottish

Seriously though, many Scots people hate the English with a passion and would only consider the Scottish flag as the correct flag.

Is that racist or patriotic?

Col

Both. It's racist to hate the English people as a whole with a passion, but recognizing your flag is patriotic in your own group of people.

 

[ColinEssex]

Both. It's racist to hate the English people as a whole with a passion, but recognizing your flag is patriotic in your own group of people.

So it is possible that racism and patriotism can overlap?

Take the Irish for example, at the moment there are riots on the streets, firebombs and general mayhem. All caused by Catholic v Protestant differences - is that racism? Or is one side just being patriotic.

Col

 

[Galaxiom]

As soon as one turns from being a citizen of the planet there is a risk of jingoism. (In an interesting typo I first wrote "lingoism" which actually conveys a similar notion.)

Personally I find any form of patriotism profoudly naive and prefer to align myself with the cognisant, regardless of their race or creed. To any but the profoundly ignorant, the members of any nation are obviously so varied in their attitudes that the concept of alignment with them as a group is utterly ridiculous.

The sad fact is the truely cognisant are rare among humans.

 

[Rabbie]

So it is possible that racism and patriotism can overlap?

Take the Irish for example, at the moment there are riots on the streets, firebombs and general mayhem. All caused by Catholic v Protestant differences - is that racism? Or is one side just being patriotic.

Col

No! It's religious bigotry on both sides. I suspect that not many of the rioters are regular church goers.

 

[Alc]

No! It's religious bigotry on both sides. I suspect that not many of the rioters are regular church goers.

Not just that, if you asked each perosn why they're doing it, I imagine there'd be a lot of 'Well, they started it' type responses.

However good or bad the initial reasons for the violence were, they've been long forgotten and are just being perpetuated out of learned hatred.

 

[oumahexi]

As soon as one turns from being a citizen of the planet there is a risk of jingoism. (In an interesting typo I first wrote "lingoism" which actually conveys a similar notion.)

Personally I find any form of patriotism profoudly naive and prefer to align myself with the cognisant, regardless of their race or creed. To any but the profoundly ignorant, the members of any nation are obviously so varied in their attitudes that the concept of alignment with them as a group is utterly ridiculous.

The sad fact is the truely cognisant are rare among humans.

Sorry Galax, I have to disagree. Patriotism, to me, is no different than pride. I am proud of my little country and the people in it, all of the people who have made it the great country it is (so that excludes the Met office ). I am proud in the same way as I am proud of my family. Just because my sister married a black man and had mixed race children does not make her husband or children any less a part of my family, so why would I not be proud to associate them as the same as me??? Yet it is the very similarity that keeps us close.

 

[oumahexi]

Well you are Scottish

Seriously though, many Scots people hate the English with a passion and would only consider the Scottish flag as the correct flag.

Is that racist or patriotic?

Col

No Col, you've got us all wrong, well me at least. I don't hate ALL English, only the ones I know

I wouldn't fly any flag other than the Saltire, I'd fly the Union Jack if I could take the red out of it

 

[Vassago]

No! It's religious bigotry on both sides. I suspect that not many of the rioters are regular church goers.

This is what I was going to say. That's a situation with religious extremists who think their religion is better. They are no better than the Muslim extremists who turn to violence to push their agenda. There are peaceful people of all religions, as they should be, but many take it overboard.

That's why I prefer a society above religion as a belief, but more of an ideal. I take the Dogma approach and keep an open mind.

 

[Galaxiom]

Patriotism, to me, is no different than pride. I am proud of my little country and the people in it, all of the people who have made it the great country it is (so that excludes the Met office ). I am proud in the same way as I am proud of my family.

I agree but I am not impressed by pride either. I am not proud of my family. I admire them for who they are and what they have done but I don't lay personal claim to their success which is what "being proud" means to me.

And while I am glad to be Australian I am not proud of Australians per se, good or bad. The achievements of other Australians are their personal achievements. I am somewhat bemused by those who claim "we" won when their countrymen succeed in a sporting event.

There are also violent, racist Australians who certainly do not make me proud. Australia had a thriving tertiary educational industry teaching students mainly from Asia. After several bashings of students the whole industry has collapsed.

Taking pride in a nation or being patriotic means accepting the full spectrum and that makes no sense to me.

 

[oumahexi]

I admire them for who they are and what they have done but I don't lay personal claim to their success which is what "being proud" means to me.

You see, I am proud of my family not because of what I have made them achieve but, because they, and my countrymen, have made me who I am.

I don't identify with the whole of the people in my family or my country. I know my country is no different to any other sporting it's share of biggots; racists; bullies; and criminals, but when ever I have been away, my heart soars to return to where I was brought up.

 

[Rabbie]

Well you are Scottish

Seriously though, many Scots people hate the English with a passion and would only consider the Scottish flag as the correct flag.

Is that racist or patriotic?

Col

Not all Scots hate the English. I have met many pleasant English people who I am pleased to call my friends. Just as well really as I live down south. Of course like everywhere there are some really obnoxious ones but that happens everywhere.

What gets me going is the jingoist attitude and triumphalism when England actually win a sporting event. I think that's why so many of us support two teams - Scotland and whoever is playing England

But for most of us it is just a bit of fun and if England win deservedly then we can be happy for them.

 

[Galaxiom]

You see, I am proud of my family not because of what I have made them achieve but, because they, and my countrymen, have made me who I am.

That is an interesting perspective that deserves serious contemplation.