Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs

[ConnorGiles]

ELE

Extinction Level Event

Think movies, Day After Tomorrow, Armageddon...etc..

I'll have to agree on that one mate, Unfortunately for mankind

 

[ConnorGiles]

Actually, if you go back before the derail, I'd already answered sheepdog and provided my reason why. By the definition elsewhere, wolves prey upon other people - Blade and I just dislike each other.

And that linked question of mine? It was to be used to address another point entirely - Blade's tendency to try to put up (badly) loaded questions. That's why the entire question is a link to wikipedia's 'Loaded Question' article. I was just waiting for a response before I went forward on that one. But...as Westly used to say, "As you wish".

Thank you Frothing, I just wouldn't want you to be punished for saying something in the spur of the moment. I'm not too sure on the rules

 

[Bladerunner]

This kind of bugged me... and I don't even know if my version is correct lmfao!

BlueIshDan: this is what I said in post 31: "You are the one spewing them forth, I am the one just throwing them back at you."

Have a good day.

 

[Frothingslosh]

This kind of bugged me... and I don't even know if my version is correct lmfao!

Well played, sir. Well played.

That said...

"I am am the one just doing x" and "I am just the one doing x" basically have two different feelings. The first one depresses the importance of the action being taken, while the second depresses the importance of the one doing the action. It's a pretty subtle nuance, but it's there.

 

[Frothingslosh]

Thank you Frothing, I just wouldn't want you to be punished for saying something in the spur of the moment. I'm not too sure on the rules

I actually asked once when I was afraid I had crossed the line. Basically, as long as you don't go completely overboard, you're fine. Remember, MarkK said in another thread that personal attacks are allowed here, and if you read my link literally (which I was counting on being done by at least one person), that's all I could have been guilty of.

Now if I were to go off on a profanity-laden long-winded rant that was gratuitously offensive to the average person, I'd probably get a talking-to and maybe a vacation. As I understand it, even Collin only got a talking-to for badmouthing a recently-deceased member here a year or two ago, although I could be in error about that as I missed the actual incident.

Edit: Oh yeah, and I believe he was barred from that discussion.

 

[ConnorGiles]

Glad thats clarified - You know I have searched for the rules on the forum and can't seem to find them

 

[Bladerunner]

I think they are wolves also, certainly they are going for each others throats..

The sad thing is, reading these rants and insults at each other simply reminds me that whilst Humans have a hole in their behinds they are not going to live together in peace... sad really... but a fact....

It pains me to say it, but I think only an ELE can save the Human race now and pull them together as one...

It has been a long time Scott. I am going to have to agree with you although the final Armageddon is not yet here. I know you do not believe but if you keep your eye to the prophecies of the Bible you will see everything unfold before your eyes. The end of Time is not yet here.

However, that does not prevent an (as you say) ELE or WWIII type event to bring people back together. Look to WWII for your answers. Hitler army at it height had only 15 million soldiers. ISIS has already taken over countries or parts of countries without anything in the way of major equipment and to some accounts have around 2-500 million (10-15%) of the Muslims that believe in the Radical Islam. The rest are as one would say are sheep. However, History tells us the Hitler was almost like ISIS (little bit here and there) in the beginning (the taking of Poland which no one wanted to stop, I think there is a story about the UK PM concerning this) and then it was too late. Millions died.

The same mentality that was then is prevalent in the US today as well as European countries. For the next two years (at least) the US will not do anything (other than token battles here and there) to stop the coming storm. Europe on the other hand will grow weary of losing her sons to a cause that at this time seems to be contained in one area of the world. At some point it will break out into the ELE that you speak of and Billions will die.

On the lighter side, I have sheep and I have sheep dogs. Over the years I have learned a lot from the Sheep Dogs. They (Great Pyrenees) are not aggressive in nature but it is in their genes to protect. They make great dogs to guard kids and I sell many of them for that purpose. However, I once sit an watched a wild dog ventured inside my fence. The alpha dog run at him, raised his front paws upon reaching the other dog and hit hit at full speed. Needless to say that at 150 lbs this sent the other dog rolling and about the time his death roll quit, the alpha dog had him by the throat. You can guess how it ended. I am in a place where wild dogs, coyotes and coy-dogs are prevalent. I have yet to have a predator kill of my herds.

Frothingslosh and myself are at odds because we have very different both political and personal beliefs. However, for me, that is where it stops. I can not dislike someone I do not know. He is as we say it, a Yankee and an American. Therefore he is my brother and like the sheep dog, I would protect him and his right to speak his opinion as he sees it. That is why, I left the other thread, not because I got mad but in my opinion the debate was no longer a debate about what it started.

Someone wanted to know what I considered myself, Sheep, wolf, sheepdog.

For better or for worse: I would prefer to think of myself as a Sheepdog in Sheep's clothing. As long as you don't threaten me or mine, we are good and I am a very nice fellow.

 

[Frothingslosh]

He is as we say it, a Yankee and an American. Therefore he is my brother and like the sheep dog, I would protect him and his right to speak his opinion as he sees it.

This is, believe it or not, a point where Blade and I actually agree. As the saying goes, "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Americans are weird that way - we might fight like cats and dogs, but GOD HELP YOU if you poke us with a stick!

 

[Libre]

I find this a very interesting discussion on several levels.
There is the superficial level - namely the question are you a Sheep, a Wolf, or a Sheepdog? Fairly easy to answer this without much thought. I believe that 99.9% of people - especially men - would self-identify as a sheepdog. Very few people would admit to being a predator (a W), and just as few would admit to being a cowardly prey animal (a S). So that leaves the SD category. Seems to have no negatives - SDs are rough and tough yet not anti-social. They would jump in to protect themselves or even a stranger without fear - after all, it's in their genes.
But is it really?
My belief - which admittedly could be very far up my lower intestine - is that out of 1000 people, there is 1 true wolf and maybe 10 true sheepdogs. The others are all sheep. The question is slanted because nobody wants to admit to being a sheep. It conveys all sorts of wimpy and cowardly traits. But that is false. We're not cavemen or swashbucklers. Technology, society, and the LAW - has taken much of the physical danger out of our daily lives. There is very little need for civilized man (or woman) to be ready to fight for their lives (until the ELE happens). Until then, you can get into an argument about a parking space. A reasonable person would not draw a weapon on another in order to obtain the parking space, even if he had every right to it. A reasonable person would walk - or drive - away and look for another place to park.
Just getting and even carrying a deadly weapon does not make a sheepdog out of a sheep, any more than an actual sheep becomes a sheepdog if you could teach it to bark. A sheep with a gun is maybe the most dangerous critter out there - to himself. He would not have the instincts - in most cases- to use it effectively. And how often do you hear of accidents and stupid, needless deaths resulting from these idiotic sheepdog wannabees pulling a weapon on the wrong person at the wrong time?

Anyway, I asked you to put yourself in one of the three categories. Let's do this "thought experiment". Obviously you can't do this in reality.
My theory is that if you gave this poll to 1 million people (let's restrict the testing population to men, just because I understand men a little better and to me, they're more predictable) - out of 1 million men, the VAST majority would self-identify as a SD. Now take ALL those that answered SD, and then subject them to a test where they could actually be harmed or killed if they don't run or seek protection from another. NOW we would see who the REAL SDs are. Maybe 1%.
I believe that Bladerunner MIGHT be a true SD, based on all the posts of his I've read, before this thread even existed. I think that the rest of us are true sheep (sorry Froth, and Conner, and everybody else). By the way, standing up for what you believe, or even rushing to protect a loved one does NOT (in my opinion) make you a true SD. A true SD would WELCOME the opportunity to show how fierce they can be. If I feel danger (and assume MOST of us are like this) I do my best to avoid the trouble, get me (and my wife) safely out of the trouble, and get home to a nice dinner. Sheepdogs can be as much of a menace as wolves. It is often that conflict can be avoided by retreating - a much better option than fighting, in my opinion.
If you doubt what I've written, think about the testosterone fueled high-school students at Columbine and at other mass shootings and hostage situations. Mostly, they just want to survive, and can be reduced to quivering, crying masses of sheeply goo, with a gun pointed at them, and watching their friends and teachers slaughtered.
Me? Baa-baa. But at least I'm a smart sheep.

 

[Frothingslosh]

Libre, I take it you missed the part where I pointed out I can and have risked myself for complete strangers? That I actually enjoy fighting? I have already taken your test and passed it.

 

[Libre]

Froth - well, I guess I forgot that.
I don't really know any of you - I'm going by my impressions based on what I've read on this forum. Okay - you "pass" the test. But you should realize that in this construct, it is NOT a compliment.
So you enjoy fighting, huh? You would prefer to loose a tooth, have your jaw broken, or perhaps be permanently disabled, over backing down and walking away from a fight? Whatever would posses someone to want to do that?

TRUE STORY
I remember when I was in high school, a group of us were hanging out on the street corner one night. Two strangers approached us and began to threaten us. My best friend (not a sheepdog) was the tallest one of us. This drew their attention to him. They were on bicycles - one took a heavy chain off his bike and began swinging it over his head in the air. All of a sudden, out of the original group of 8 or 10 of us, my friend and I were the only ones left - everyone else scattered. I could have run too, but I was unwilling to abandon my friend. I thought - is there anything I can do? There was. I did what I've done many times in my life - I used my brain and my mouth. I spoke to the chain swinger - pacified him - apologized to him - soothed him - and they both left. Does that make me a sheepdog? I did NOT want to get hit with that chain - I guarantee you that. But I did not flee, and I learned that my mouth and my intellect were my best defenses. Maybe these guys were not really wolves - if they were I might have been killed right then and there. I did not flee but I still would rate myself a sheep. I was praying that these guys would go away - as they did. But maybe I have a bit of sheepdog in me after all.

 

[Frothingslosh]

Oh, I didn't say it's particularly sane of me. There's a reason I pointed out in my first reply on this thread that there's a part of me that I carefully keep buried. The reason I enjoy fights isn't because of the violence or the pain, it's because some part of me sees it as the ultimate contest. The two times I got into a fight to protect a stranger, yes, I was perfectly willing to be hurt - severely - or even killed rather than allow the preson I fought to continue beating on the woman they were hitting. Perhaps you would feel better walking away because it's not your problem - I can't sit there and wach someone get hurt.

And yes, there is a good chance that that tendency - to help those in trouble - will be the death of me, and I'm fine with that.

On top of that, even though I actually do enjoy fighting, I'm not blind to the fact that I am in no way guaranteed to win. Hell, I may have won more than I've lost, but I've lost enough fights to have had that lesson pounded into me quite literally. I also know full well that violence usually makes things worse, not better.

The fact of the matter is that I will always resolve situations peacefully - as you did - whenever I can, simply because I truly do believe violence should only be a last resort. In the end, a peaceful resolution is almost always the best one. I just happen to be willing to step up when it's not an option.

Edit:

You seem to have wolf and sheepdog confused. Your examples of fights are both what idiots and would-be-wolves would take. I never said that I choose fights over reason and de-escalation, and only an idiot would take on a biker gang for no particular reason. I jump in and start fighting when it's NECESSARY, and only because there's no other acceptable option. You don't have to be a psychopath in order to be willing to risk injury or death for the sake of others.

 

[Libre]

How am I confused?
You're confused.
The sniper did 4 tours, and said he enjoyed them. He would have gone back again if he could - in the movie, anyway.
Don't think for a second I'd let my wife get beat on while I run away and hide.
I think you're the same as most of us - if you agree that that a peaceful solution is the best solution. I can't say what you are and what you aren't. but people that like to fight should all just fight themselves and leave us peaceful ones alone. For one thing - we can surprise you because we don't fight unless we're desperate - and a desperate man is a dangerous man.

 

[Frothingslosh]

You're confused because you seem to labor under the belief that only psychopaths resort to violence, that I was in any way referring to the movie (which not only did I not even mention, but which this thread is not actually about), and you seem to believe that people who prefer peaceful solutions can never resort to violence. You mention defending your wife, but as Connor laid out the categories, protecting family and friends is not what makes one a sheepdog - putting yourself on the line to protect STRANGERS is what's key. Anyone will protect those they love - it's protecting those you know nothing about that moves you into the sheepdog category.

Next up, fightting.

MMA practitioners like to fight, but the vast majority are hardly a threat to society. Boxers like to fight, but the vast majority are hardly a threat to society. Hell, the jerk at the bar who gets in a bar fight every week or two may do it just because he enjoys fighting, but it doesn't mean he's going to go out and start raping and pillaging. The real key is whether you like to fight or to hurt people. The wolves at the very least have no problem hurting people, and some actually enjoy it. That's a far cry from simply liking to fight.

As I keep trying to get through to you, it is quite feasible for someone to always attempt the peaceful solution, and still be willing to fight if peace isn't possible. If I were like you, those two women (neither of whom I knew at all) would have been beaten unconscious or worse. I guess you feel that all soldiers and cops are vicious monsters out to kill as many people as possible then, right? After all, they're trained and capable of using violence to resolve issues, and sometimes end up having to do so.

Another thing - unless you have quite literally zero self control, just because you enjoy doing something, it doesn't mean you do it every chance you get, especially when what you enjoy doing is dangerous, self-destructive, or both.

Oh, and last thing: desperate people generally screw up. Time and again, desperate people have attempted to act, screwed up, and gotten themselves and others killed. Desperation makes you act before you think. Yes, desperate people are dangerous, but more to themselves and those they're defending. This isn't the movies, and terror and desperation doesn't make you suddenly capable in an emergency.

Now. There's nothing wrong with being a sheep. There's nothing wrong with being a sheepdog. But for some reason you seem obsessed with pigeonholing me into a spot where I do not fit. The only reason I'm not a soldier right now is a case of bronchitis when I was 17. The reason I'm not a cop right now is, I'm sad to say, family pressure (and, well, being 44 and severely out of shape these days). I have a bad habit of trying to help people even if it's not in my own best interest, and I have quite literally done so before. That means that by the standards put forth in the OP, I fall into the sheepdog category, no matter how much you desperately wish otherwise. My life would be inordinately easier if I were a sheep, but I'm just not built that way.

 

[Libre]

This is funny - right after I wrote my last post, a guy got in my face and it could have gotten ugly. He (falsely) accused me of line breaking. I ignored him completely - got my prescriptions- and walked away. That's what I do. I prefer not to fight but if he continued I'm that way, one or both of us was going to get bloody.

 

[Frothingslosh]

This is funny - right after I wrote my last post, a guy got in my face and it could have gotten ugly. He (falsely) accused me of line breaking. I ignored him completely - got my prescriptions- and walked away. That's what I do. I prefer not to fight but if he continued I'm that way, one or both of us was going to get bloody.

I would have done the same.

The point I'm trying to get through to you is that the sheepdog isn't about being violent for the sake of violence. It's about being willing to fight to protect those who cannot protect themselves.

Now if the guy had been beating the hell out of the senior in front of him, then your reaction would have been applicable to the thread.

 

[Libre]

Froth - I'm not trying to pigeonhole you or tell you what you are and what you aren't - however much you keep saying so. All I would like you to recognize is that people may answer the question one way, and in a real life situation do something entirely different. Which is good. One needs to size up a situation and decide on the best course, not check with their mental image of themselves and then act accordingly. Only a fool would do that. And why do you let yourself get so out of shape? Get yourself back into shape if you want to walk around defending people. Oh, you said you don't really look for trouble, that you prefer peaceful solutions, but you do enjoy a good brawl. So maybe the whole question is fallacious - as I said it was raised in the movie (as I said in my first sentence) and under a certain set of circumstances, any person is capable of violence or retreat. Some have a shorter fuse than others, and some are just plain old scumbags. I sure hope you not in that category. On my way home from the drugstore, an Ahole was tossing confetti out his car window, littering the street. I hope this misanthrope has a car crash on his way home (with another misanthrope). But I would not approach him and inform him of his misanthropic status or compel him to clean up his trash - much as I would like to. The only way you're going to get me worked up enough to get in your face is to threaten me or my wife directly. Otherwise, I'm not going to be the one you hear about on the evening news. That's how I've lived so long, so far.

 

[Bladerunner]

Do you need a Break today?

Years ago when I acquired my first flock of sheep, I went to a gentleman who had Great Pyrenees to sell. I met him at his barn early one morning to look at some pups. When I got out of the car, I noticed that 3 out of the 4 adult dogs he had were just sitting in the pasture evenly spaced between the end fences and between the sheep/goats and the fence that ran next to the woods. The 4th dog had herded all the sheep&goats in a circle a little closer to the barn and away from the woods where the other three dogs were patiently waiting .

I asked the man as to the reason why his dogs would sit so still and attentive in the middle of a pasture. He stated that they did that just about every morning and afternoon and for the longest he could not figured out what they were doing until one morning. On the morning in question the dogs were doing their everyday ritual when he stepped out on the deck. At about that time, an Ambulance using it siren came careening down the gravel road on its way to something that most likely was not good. After it had passed and the sound of the siren had faded in the air, he heard them. A group of Coyotes/Dogs had started howling at the siren. This was why the dogs were just sitting there. They had sensed the coyotes/dogs in the woods and was simply waiting for them to cross the fence line. I ask him if the coyotes had ever crossed the fence line and his answer was no.

Needless to say this sold me on Great Pyrenees and I bought two of them right then and there. Of course they had to grow up and believe me a 50-60 lbs 6 month old puppy is a handful and I had two of them. lol These pups and their progeny have provided a protection for my herd that fences simply can not provide.

Is there a moral to this story? You decide!

 

[MarkK]

Remember, MarkK said in another thread that personal attacks are allowed here,

It's not about personal attacks being allowed or forbidden. It's your space and your time, so make it worthwhile.

Police yourself. Do what you'd do with other people you care about. If you're pissed off at someone, don't reply while you're angry. Wait a while, think it over.

Threads where people hurl crap at each other are distasteful. Don't create them and don't perpetuate them, and not because there's a rule against it, but because it's your backyard. Don't shit in it. Treat it with respect. Demand the same of other users.

Cheers,

 

[ConnorGiles]

I find this a very interesting discussion on several levels.
There is the superficial level - namely the question are you a Sheep, a Wolf, or a Sheepdog? Fairly easy to answer this without much thought. I believe that 99.9% of people - especially men - would self-identify as a sheepdog. Very few people would admit to being a predator (a W), and just as few would admit to being a cowardly prey animal (a S). So that leaves the SD category. Seems to have no negatives - SDs are rough and tough yet not anti-social. They would jump in to protect themselves or even a stranger without fear - after all, it's in their genes.
But is it really?
My belief - which admittedly could be very far up my lower intestine - is that out of 1000 people, there is 1 true wolf and maybe 10 true sheepdogs. The others are all sheep. The question is slanted because nobody wants to admit to being a sheep. It conveys all sorts of wimpy and cowardly traits. But that is false. We're not cavemen or swashbucklers. Technology, society, and the LAW - has taken much of the physical danger out of our daily lives. There is very little need for civilized man (or woman) to be ready to fight for their lives (until the ELE happens). Until then, you can get into an argument about a parking space. A reasonable person would not draw a weapon on another in order to obtain the parking space, even if he had every right to it. A reasonable person would walk - or drive - away and look for another place to park.
Just getting and even carrying a deadly weapon does not make a sheepdog out of a sheep, any more than an actual sheep becomes a sheepdog if you could teach it to bark. A sheep with a gun is maybe the most dangerous critter out there - to himself. He would not have the instincts - in most cases- to use it effectively. And how often do you hear of accidents and stupid, needless deaths resulting from these idiotic sheepdog wannabees pulling a weapon on the wrong person at the wrong time?

Anyway, I asked you to put yourself in one of the three categories. Let's do this "thought experiment". Obviously you can't do this in reality.
My theory is that if you gave this poll to 1 million people (let's restrict the testing population to men, just because I understand men a little better and to me, they're more predictable) - out of 1 million men, the VAST majority would self-identify as a SD. Now take ALL those that answered SD, and then subject them to a test where they could actually be harmed or killed if they don't run or seek protection from another. NOW we would see who the REAL SDs are. Maybe 1%.
I believe that Bladerunner MIGHT be a true SD, based on all the posts of his I've read, before this thread even existed. I think that the rest of us are true sheep (sorry Froth, and Conner, and everybody else). By the way, standing up for what you believe, or even rushing to protect a loved one does NOT (in my opinion) make you a true SD. A true SD would WELCOME the opportunity to show how fierce they can be. If I feel danger (and assume MOST of us are like this) I do my best to avoid the trouble, get me (and my wife) safely out of the trouble, and get home to a nice dinner. Sheepdogs can be as much of a menace as wolves. It is often that conflict can be avoided by retreating - a much better option than fighting, in my opinion.
If you doubt what I've written, think about the testosterone fueled high-school students at Columbine and at other mass shootings and hostage situations. Mostly, they just want to survive, and can be reduced to quivering, crying masses of sheeply goo, with a gun pointed at them, and watching their friends and teachers slaughtered.
Me? Baa-baa. But at least I'm a smart sheep.

I have in the past helped other people who have been in danger, But I still would not identify myself as a whole hearted sheepdog.

I am most definitely a sheep, Problem is Libre is that the male species tend to have a knack for showing dominance. It happens in many animal species, Make themselves look bigger to scare away other dominant males. Get my point?

I agree with you that only a few will actually identify as sheepdogs. I have said before, (if I haven't well here it is ) It is that split second you see someone in danger that determines your category. If you have no second thoughts about going to help, then you Identify as a sheepdog.

If you even have that split second of hesitation then you identify as a sheep, even if you do go to help. As I have proclaimed, I would class myself as a sheep with the heart of a sheepdog. I do have hesitation before helping others but that still doesn't stop me helping.

My point here being, just because you have helped people doesn't mean you are a sheepdog. It just means you are one of the brave sheep. There is no dishonour in being a brave sheep, maybe that makes you a ram? , but it does not make you a sheepdog.

I would only class sheepdogs as (as already proclaimed in the opening post) policemen, Marines, firemen etc... because these are the people who help people on a daily basis and (most but not all) have a heart of a pure sheepdog.

As Dan-Cat has said, There would be much more than three categorisations but if there is just 3 like in this post, then I would Identify as a sheep.

(P.S. if you were expecting everyone to answer without letting their manly ego get in the way Libre, then you asked the wrong gender. )