Are you an atheist? (6 Viewers)

[The_Doc_Man]

Joost,

Some of us have been trying to press this exact point home for a long time. Studying Man via Anthropology and our perceptions of Neolithic history would immediately lead to this point. The difficulty is always that the people of religion were brought up in a way that so strongly orients them to their beliefs that they CAN'T give up the ideas.

If you are familiar with Transactional Analysis and the tripartite mind theory, you would realize that religion, being a learned thing, is part of the Parent self and preys on the fears of the Child self. By the time we get old enough for the Adult self to kick in and start negating the lies told to us while we were still children, we run into an extreme case of cognitive dissonance - which only makes the Child self (the bearer of emotions) go bonkers. Which is why religious extremists get all worked up about it. The emotional turmoil of the Child self is so strong that they nearly panic at the idea that their parents, the persons they trusted most in this world, would have dared to lie to them.

I'll be honest - after 30 years of growing up in a Methodist household, it took me more than just a couple of years to get past that emotional barrier. I did, but don't doubt for a moment that it was painless. I forgive the extremely religious because they are victims. I just wish there could be a gentle way to keep this generation's victims from becoming the next generation's perpetrators and perpetuators.

 

[Brianwarnock]

Doc
You make appear that our parents deliberately lied to us, well I'm sure mine didn't. My parents would have been brainwashed just as the previous generations, and after rudimentary education both left school at 13 to spend the rest of their lives working long and hard with little or no time for reflection on their beliefs , hell my mother was refused communion by her church for marrying a Protestant but still remained a committed Catholic.
They knew no different, but the situation did force me to challenge the whole religious thing when I became old enough.

But I do not hold anything against my parents.

Brian

 

[JoeyJoystick]

Hi Doc,

As you mentioned in your very first posting, interesting to discuss this with people that have a higher education. It mostly excludes the kind of language that normally stops me from entering such discussions. The difficulty always is of course that it tends to be an endless discussion. After all, it is pretty pointless to argue with 'A Believe' in general.

I can only imagine how difficult it must have been for you initially to move away from the way you have been brought up. I have seen this myself from close by several times. A bit like telling a child that Santa Claus is not real, only this is a lot easier for a child to deal with than an adult. Myself, I was about 12 years old when I realised myself that this was not for me. I clearly remember this time. I did used to go to church on Sundays with my Grandmother though. She used to live with us and she was too old to go alone. I guess I would do that again if needs be. But that is compassion for the needy more than anything else.

A real turning point was the following though. I must have been about 16-17 years old and went to a mass for a family member who had recently passed away. I was the youngest in the church with my brother in law being 12 years older the second youngest. The majority of people was in the age gap of 55-75 years old. Anyway, mass commenced. And at one point the priest went rabbling on in Latin and everybody stood up at the same time and started talking/praying/singing at the same time and the same thing. And I had a hard time not to burst out laughing when I realised that nobody actually knew what either the priest or themselves were actually saying. That is when I said I will never go to a church again. Not a statement I can hold, but the only exception is still today that I will go there out of respect for people that are dear to me. Being a little older I can control myself well enough to not make a fool out of myself, or anyone else for that matter.

I have recently started reading a book that you may find of interest. It is called Non-Violence, The History of a Dangerous Idea, by; Mark Kurlansky. I have not finished it yet, but especially the very beginning of the book is interesting in the context of this topic in the sense that it shows what religion was intended to do and how we made up excuses to distort the initial views in order to justify what we wanted to achieve. I say we because I do not think Atheism was much of a thing back in those days... If you read it, I would appreciate your opinion on it.

I am sitting here with my sister and we can openly talk about stuff like this. She is in the category of people that are not religious but believe that there is something. In Dutch we call something 'iets'. They now actually have an English word adapted from this called ietsism which is self explanatory when you know the translation. Initially in Holland, but now worldwide apparently this is the fastest growing religious group. A group of people who think that this wondrous world is so absolutely amazing that there must be a higher power.

What bugs me about religion as a nonbeliever is the following though. There is billions of people that believe and spend time, money and other resources on something that is not there. And all this has been going on for thousands of years. And in addition to this the believes are dictating to us to hold on to the past. Imagine where we could have been today if we had not had religion.

Anyway, back to the real world again and continue to respect the people around me. With all there opinions and ideas.

Best Regards,


Joost (Joey)

 

[JoeyJoystick]

Hi Brian,

I hear what you're saying, but the problem with religion is of course that it is a believe. His parents, as well as mine, never thought for a second that that they lied to us and I am pretty sure that this is not what Doc meant, but that is for him to elaborate. Bottom line, they did deliberately say to us what they said and they did that with the best of intentions. If what's being said is not the truth, then by default it is a lie. However, this does not mean that our parent deliberately lied to us.

And this contradiction leaves us here with a bit of a dilemma. Not something worth arguing over though, since it was not done with bad intentions.


Best regards,

Joost (Joey)

 

[Frothingslosh]

Brian - I don't read it as Doc saying that your parents deliberately lied to you. I'm sure they very much believed what they taught you; it's just that a lie doesn't stop being a lie just because you believe it to be true. (Deeply-held beliefs, true or not, get so tied into one's concept of self that it makes self-delusion of ANY sort seemingly impossible to break - ask any Scientologist or battered spouse!)

Joey - What you're discussing sounds an AWFUL lot like Deism, which is hardly new.

 

[JoeyJoystick]

Hi Frothingslosh,

English is not my first language, so I just learned a new word. Anyways, I think you are referring to my comments on 'Ietsism' when you say it looks an awful lot like Deism. After reading up on this a little I am getting the impression that indeed they have quite a bit in common, but I think there is a very important difference. Deism does believe in a creator whereas Ietsism simply believes in a higher 'something', but this is not necessarily a (single) creator.

Quote from Wikipedia describes what I want to say very well I see:

Ietsism (Dutch: ietsisme (pronounced [itsˈɪsmə]) – "somethingism") is an unspecified belief in an undetermined transcendent force. It is a Dutch term for a range of beliefs held by people who, on the one hand, inwardly suspect – or indeed believe – that "there must be something undefined beyond the material and that which can be seen” than we know about, but on the other hand do not necessarily accept or subscribe to the established belief system, dogma or view of the nature of God offered by any particular religion.

​

This pretty much explains the differences. But I agree that they have indeed quite a bit in common as well.

To me it sounds like, and I also get this feeling (feeling, they do not speak this out loud and clear...) from the people I speak to, that it is a safe and intermediate stage from religion to atheism. Not too many radical changes in your life and not too many people in your direct surroundings getting upset while having distantiated (does this word make sense in English??) yourself from the institutions, with which you conveniently do not have to deal with anymore either.

Anyway, ietsism is not for me either. I still am a devoted atheist.

Joost (Joey)

 

[Brianwarnock]

Yes distantiated is a good English word, even if spell check flags it up.

It's typical of the Dutch to speak better English than us.

Brian

 

[The_Doc_Man]

To clarify - my parents and many other parents unknowingly propagate a myth, for which I forgive them. There IS, however, a certain irony because in the process of healing from this situation, I have to say, "I forgive you, father, for you know not what you do."

 

[The_Doc_Man]

The farthest I will go in the Deism/Ietism path is that whatever is out there, to me, cannot be sentient. If there is anything out there, it is a force of Nature that follows certain laws of physics, chemistry, math, whatever else applies - but those forces are not based on something have created a program and started it running so that it eventually reached our existence (the "Intelligent Design" crowd, e.g.) This isn't "The Matrix" and there is nobody running the show - which in a sense means there IS no show, there is only natural scenery.

 

[ColinEssex]

Hi Frothingslosh,

English is not my first language, . . . .

Joost (Joey)

Don't worry, it's not Frothy's either, he's American.

Col

 

[Brianwarnock]

To clarify - my parents and many other parents unknowingly propagate a myth,

I don't call that lying. If you honestly believe something to be true it is not a lie to state it, it is just wrong, as in not correct.

Brian

 

[Frothingslosh]

Don't worry, it's not Frothy's either, he's American.

Col

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Colin, I am reminded of My Fair Lady

"Why can't the English teach their children how to speak?
This verbal class distinction by now should be antique..."

Of course it is just a musical show, but to the USA viewpoint, it confirms that English isn't the first language of many native-born Englishmen, either.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Brian

I don't call that lying. If you honestly believe something to be true it is not a lie to state it, it is just wrong, as in not correct.

Maybe, but the effect on the children is the same.

 

[ColinEssex]

it confirms that English isn't the first language of many native-born Englishmen, either.

Too bloody right. Too many Johnny foreigners in the UK now. Plus, it seems we are going to take thousands more in the near future.
That'll cause even more strain on hospitals, schools, housing etc. and they'll want it for free and benefits to live on and they'll bloody get it too thanks to Cameron.

Col

 

[Brianwarnock]

That'll cause even more strain on hospitals, schools, housing etc. and they'll want it for free and benefits to live on and they'll bloody get it too thanks to Cameron.

Col

Yes let's blame the present incumbent for a problem started long ago.

Brian

 

[ColinEssex]

Yes let's blame the present incumbent for a problem started long ago.

Brian

That's what he is there for.

Do you know, we spend billions on foreign aid to tinpot little places, most of which is spent on wars, weapons and back pockets, very little gets to help the people.

BUT, our people here wait hours and die in corridors in casualty, cuts are being made everywhere, police, fire brigades and councils, disabled people have had cuts in benefits, now we are struggling with getting a GP at weekends.

Cut our foreign aid and look after your own, charity begins at home, not tinpot little African warmongers. Now we have thousands of people coming in to drain our services even more.

Col

 

[AnthonyGerrard]

That's what he is there for.

Do you know, we spend billions on foreign aid to tinpot little places, most of which is spent on wars, weapons and back pockets, very little gets to help the people.

BUT, our people here wait hours and die in corridors in casualty, cuts are being made everywhere, police, fire brigades and councils, disabled people have had cuts in benefits, now we are struggling with getting a GP at weekends.

Cut our foreign aid and look after your own, charity begins at home, not tinpot little African warmongers. Now we have thousands of people coming in to drain our services even more.

Col

We are one of a few of countries that's meets the 0.7% of GDP as foreign aid. We should be proud of that.

But yes we do need to be careful how many people we bring in etc. Germany is in dire need of young people, as it predicted to have extreme negative population growth. (and no major economy seems to have come up with a system other of growth in everything being essential). So its all very well for them to invite people in.

In a few years time the maybe 800k this year - god knows what next year, are then free to move within the EU.

I'm all for helping out, but in a controlled way. EU doesn't really allow us that control.

Other richer countries meanwhile , don't meet our asylum numbers, nor our overseas aid numbers etc

Australia - the worlds bludgers - so far - I'm talking about you!

20,000 extra, of the neediest, is a massive strain on our resources, but then its the right thing to do also.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Do you know, we spend billions on foreign aid to tinpot little places, most of which is spent on wars, weapons and back pockets, very little gets to help the people.

BUT, our people here wait hours and die in corridors in casualty, cuts are being made everywhere, police, fire brigades and councils, disabled people have had cuts in benefits, now we are struggling with getting a GP at weekends.

Cut our foreign aid and look after your own, charity begins at home, not tinpot little African warmongers. Now we have thousands of people coming in to drain our services even more.

Col, you have to be more careful. You are beginning to sound like a U.S.A. Republican more and more each day. Pretty soon, folks will think you really ARE from the USA when you use that particular kind of rhetoric. Not that I disagree with your viewpoint, you understand, but it just could be misleading as to your REAL national origin.

 

[Bladerunner]

Hello, it has been a while since I have posted on this forum. It has been a busy year and still is.

I write this letter to all those who profess to be either Atheist or Agnostic in their spiritual beliefs. I write it in the hope that these words might have some positive affect on all those negative beliefs. Before I go any further,,,YES,,,it is religious in nature but it is really not what you have been taught or are expecting.

Below, I have posted a you-tube video url to check out and challenge you to watch at least two hours of it with if not an open mind, at the very least an inquisitive one.

There is a little something for all of you. Those who believe the Bible is only a bunch of stories, for those who believe that God is non-existent, for those like Galaxiom who believes science will figure it all out..(p.s. it already has), for those like Fothingslosh, who believe that scripture verses tell us nothing.

Rabbie, you once challenged me to show the Bible was for real. Well, I do not have the words nor the knowledge but the person in this video does and it you will listen to him for the first two hours, I can almost guarantee you that your doubts will no longer be there.

As for all the other atheist or agnostics out there, at least one time before it is too late to accept Jesus Christ into your hearts, listen to the first two hours of this video. You all will become aware of how little time you have to make a better choice than you have already made.

Rem, one thing. No one else has to know. It is between you, the video and Jesus Christ.

Yes, I know some of you will attack the Bible, the Author, God, me and just about anything else in order to convince yourself that you are right but please watch the first two hours first.

Choose Wisely and Good Luck to all.........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_nEM0FMeZQ

Bladerunner