"San Bernardino shooter was well vetted"

[Steve R.]

1) 2) Honestly, with the violent rhetoric and all the right wingers talking about 'cleansing' the nation of liberals, people calling for the 'elimination' of democrats, and all sorts of right-wingers calling for everything up to and including sedition, can you blame them?

Source?

Seems that free-speech is under attack.

Study: Nearly half of Millennials not always on board with free speech

"According to a study from the Pew Research Center, 40% of people surveyed between the ages of 18 and 34 think offensive statements made about minorities should be federally regulated. Fifty-eight percent, however, defended First Amendment rights."

Even worse is the activism of the "left" on college campuses to suppress free-speech. Basically, if you don't agree with the ideology of the "left" that you can be censored and threatened. In the post below, note the emergence of the concept "microaggression" and the demand to get "some muscle" to force the removal a reporter.

A Washington Post article by George Will: America’s higher education brought low

Melissa Click is the University of Missouri academic who shouted “I need some muscle over here” to prevent a photojournalist from informing the public about a public demonstration intended to influence the public. ... The University of Wisconsin at Milwaukee, an irony-free campus, declared the phrase “politically correct” a microaggression."

This is Not a Day Care. It’s a University! Dr. Everett Piper, President of Oklahoma Wesleyan University wrote:

This past week, I actually had a student come forward after a university chapel service and complain because he felt “victimized” by a sermon on the topic of 1 Corinthians 13. It appears this young scholar felt offended because a homily on love made him feel bad for not showing love. In his mind, the speaker was wrong for making him, and his peers, feel uncomfortable.

I’m not making this up. Our culture has actually taught our kids to be this self-absorbed and narcissistic. Any time their feelings are hurt, they are the victims. Anyone who dares challenge them and, thus, makes them “feel bad” about themselves, is a “hater,” a “bigot,” an “oppressor,” and a “victimizer.”
...
Oklahoma Wesleyan is not a “safe place”, but rather, a place to learn: to learn that life isn’t about you, but about others; that the bad feeling you have while listening to a sermon is called guilt; that the way to address it is to repent of everything that’s wrong with you rather than blame others for everything that’s wrong with them. This is a place where you will quickly learn that you need to grow up.

A Washington Times article by Suzanne Fields: The slow death of free speech; or "How the illiberal left silences those who won’t go along to get along".

 

[Bladerunner]

On the face this does seem like a "no brainier" unless you just happen to share the same name as someone on the list. It would be cleared by finger prints no doubt by the DOJ or ATF. In this case a small delay would be okay.

BTW all the Dem's who purpose legislation governing gun control all have well armed body guards, armored vehicles not to mention conceal carry permits basically everything they need to stay safe from the great unwashed.

FYI: there are 72 people from the Homeland security dept. that are on the No-Fly list.

There is no set way to get off once you are on it even if it is a mistake.

There is no agency responsible for putting you on it.. All the Pres. would have to do is give them you name and your on it. Talk about third world country political prisoners, here it is.
\
Bingo,,you cannot buy any guns but would have to give up any guns you already had.

Fellows, this is a bad road to go down.

 

[Frothingslosh]

FYI: there are 72 people from the Homeland security dept. that are on the No-Fly list.

There is no set way to get off once you are on it even if it is a mistake.

There is no agency responsible for putting you on it.. All the Pres. would have to do is give them you name and your on it. Talk about third world country political prisoners, here it is.
\
Bingo,,you cannot buy any guns but would have to give up any guns you already had.

Fellows, this is a bad road to go down.

Hey, look, yet more comments from the local child-murderer-wannabe with nary a single fact among them!

The no-fly list is handled by the FBI's Terrorist Screening Center.

This group maintains both the Terrorist Screening Database and its smaller subset, the No Fly List, as they themselves explain.

Names get added to these lists via various government agencies, as laid out in the PDF linked just above, not by Obama. Reasons could range from your name popping up in a terror investigation to someone with the same name as you traveling to Syria. Yeah, it's stupidly easy to get added in error, but it's not by presidential fiat like Murderboy would have you believe.

There are an estimated 700,000 names in the Terrorist Screening Database. In a copy of the no-fly-list leaked in 2013, there were 5,000 Americans included; that number is believed to be around 10,000 today.

So, basically, the murder fanboy was talking out his ass again.

Also, please note that the bill in question only barred purchases; it did not even attempt to make OWNERSHIP of a firearm by those listed illegal, despite Murderboy's delusions equating 'not allowed to buy firearms' with 'tortured to death by Sandanistas'.

 

[Bladerunner]

Hey, look, yet more comments from the local child-murderer-wannabe with nary a single fact among them!

The no-fly list is handled by the FBI's Terrorist Screening Center.

This group maintains both the Terrorist Screening Database and its smaller subset, the No Fly List, as they themselves explain.

Names get added to these lists via various government agencies, as laid out in the PDF linked just above, not by Obama. Reasons could range from your name popping up in a terror investigation to someone with the same name as you traveling to Syria. Yeah, it's stupidly easy to get added in error, but it's not by presidential fiat like Murderboy would have you believe.

There are an estimated 700,000 names in the Terrorist Screening Database. In a copy of the no-fly-list leaked in 2013, there were 5,000 Americans included; that number is believed to be around 10,000 today.

So, basically, the murder fanboy was talking out his ass again.

Also, please note that the bill in question only barred purchases; it did not even attempt to make OWNERSHIP of a firearm by those listed illegal, despite Murderboy's delusions equating 'not allowed to buy firearms' with 'tortured to death by Sandanistas'.

A very thin line....all some has to do is like you try to do to me,, marginalize them by putting them on a no-fly list.. We want people watch out for possible terrorist don;'t we....You have already come pretty close....

Political prisoners are common throughout the world and will be in the US if this type bill goes through........

You are a nice piece of work.....have a Blessed evening....

Blade

 

[AnthonyGerrard]

I thought a Mumbai, Paris type attack in the US would bring it to its senses re gun laws sadly seems to be getting worse. - Donald Trump is the most dangerous man in the US.

There's something deeply wrong with the world when someone like him can be as rich as he is, never mind a frontrunner for leader of the free world.

If hes the leader of the western world - I can see why people think the west is broken and must be overthrown.

 

[Alc]

Hey, look, yet more comments from the local child-murderer-wannabe with nary a single fact among them!

The no-fly list is handled by the FBI's Terrorist Screening Center.

This group maintains both the Terrorist Screening Database and its smaller subset, the No Fly List, as they themselves explain.

Names get added to these lists via various government agencies, as laid out in the PDF linked just above, not by Obama. Reasons could range from your name popping up in a terror investigation to someone with the same name as you traveling to Syria. Yeah, it's stupidly easy to get added in error, but it's not by presidential fiat like Murderboy would have you believe.

There are an estimated 700,000 names in the Terrorist Screening Database. In a copy of the no-fly-list leaked in 2013, there were 5,000 Americans included; that number is believed to be around 10,000 today.

So, basically, the murder fanboy was talking out his ass again.

Also, please note that the bill in question only barred purchases; it did not even attempt to make OWNERSHIP of a firearm by those listed illegal, despite Murderboy's delusions equating 'not allowed to buy firearms' with 'tortured to death by Sandanistas'.

Don't expect an acknowledgment of the fact that he was wrong. His other posts have pretty much taught us that he makes his mind up about things first, THEN ignores any and all actual evidence, so that he can stick to his opinions.

[Edit] Ha! Just read his response. Any sign of admitting he was incorrect? Nope. Just some bullsh*t about how what he said is very, very close to being right and a deranged prediction about what will happen in the future.

 

[Frothingslosh]

A very thin line....

Or what? What will you do? Call me a traitor again? Call me a satanist again? Accuse me again of being part of some grand conspiracy to destroy America?

The difference between my accusations and yours is that mine are based on fact; in fact, they're based on things you've stated in this very forum, so know that when I call you a wanna-be child murderer, it's because you stated that very thing here not two weeks ago.

all some has to do is like you try to do to me,, marginalize them by putting them on a no-fly list..

Nope, I'm mocking you, and making sure anyone who reads anything you say knows what kind of filth you are. In no way am I attempting to prevent you from saying what you will.

And I am amused you seem to think I have the power to put anyone I dislike on the no-fly list, but alas, I am not the FBI. Besides, I'm pretty sure the requirements for being on the no-fly list are somewhat more stringent than 'being a drooling idiot on an internet forum'.

We want people watch out for possible terrorist don;'t we....

For fuck's sake, learn GRAMMAR already, you moron. And in case you missed it, we already DO that. There's even a special department in the FBI that does only that! Hell, there's even an entire Cabinet-level department dedicated to Homeland Security, you self-righteous twit.

You have already come pretty close....

Oh, I see, still no facts, but you're happy to resort to vague threats.

Bring it.

Political prisoners are common throughout the world and will be in the US if this type bill goes through........

And here our child-murderer-wannabe descends into pure fantasy. The bill in question had no provisions for imprisoning political prisoners (which is a loaded term if there ever was one).

Let's look at what a political prisoner is:

Political prisoner
noun
someone imprisoned for holding, expressing, or acting in accord with particular political beliefs

Huh, I saw nothing in that bill calling for the arrest of anyone having specific political beliefs. In fact, you know who the political prisoners in the US tend to be? People who speak out against government overreach and corruption. HERE is a long, long list of political activists who have been imprisoned on shady or trumped-up charges, or (in the case of Chelsea Manning) for letting the world know about US war crimes.

We won't go into the unconstitutional internment of innocent Japanese Americans in WW2 or the calls to do the same to Muslims today, nor on the increasingly Nazi-esque demonization of Muslims in modern America.

You are a nice piece of work.....

Only a Christian would call someone who wants to help the poor, the helpless, and the needy, and who believes in always doing the right thing 'a piece of work'.

 

[Frothingslosh]

I thought a Mumbai, Paris type attack in the US would bring it to its senses re gun laws sadly seems to be getting worse. - Donald Trump is the most dangerous man in the US.

There's something deeply wrong with the world when someone like him can be as rich as he is, never mind a frontrunner for leader of the free world.

If hes the leader of the western world - I can see why people think the west is broken and must be overthrown.

Let's be fair here - the majority of people in Western nations think Trump is nuts and would be a disaster as POTUS.

The problem is that Fox News and the Koch Brothers have spent the last twenty years very carefully priming their demographic groups (retirees, the Religious Reich, and anti-government nutjobs) here in the States that there is a vast conspiracy out there just waiting to destroy America and kill them and their families. They have spent the last twenty years carefully instilling a terror of all that is not American in them, and now Trump is reaping the rewards via his openly fascist rhetoric.

 

[Alc]

Only a Christian would call someone who wants to help the poor, the helpless, and the needy, and who believes in always doing the right thing 'a piece of work'.

If someone had said to me six months ago that we would be defending the idea of helping people who need it against someone claiming to be a Christian and who interprets the message of the jesus character in the story book as being "f*ck the poor and needy", I wouldn't have believed it.

 

[Frothingslosh]

If someone had said to me six months ago that we would be defending the idea of helping people who need it against someone claiming to be a Christian and who interprets the message of the jesus character in the story book as being "f*ck the poor and needy", I wouldn't have believed it.

Honestly? Neither would I.

 

[AccessBlaster]

I thought a Mumbai, Paris type attack in the US would bring it to its senses re gun laws sadly seems to be getting worse. - Donald Trump is the most dangerous man in the US.

There's something deeply wrong with the world when someone like him can be as rich as he is, never mind a frontrunner for leader of the free world.

If hes the leader of the western world - I can see why people think the west is broken and must be overthrown.

Again Paris has strict guns laws, and it still happen. I suppose they can make it even stricter, if that will make people feel Better.

Extremism within Islam goes back to the 7th century, it wasn't conceived because of Donald Trump or America for that matter. Their beef is older, and for the most part Euro (crusader).

 

[Frothingslosh]

Let's be honest here. Extremism within all three Abrahamic religions goes back to the origins. After all, the Old Testament is replete with massacres and genocides performed by the ancient Hebrews. The three modern Peoples of the Book are just continuing in that glorified tradition.

 

[AccessBlaster]

I agree more people have died in the name of God, then all the wars combined.

Gun control is a perceived easier fix then religious fundamentalist ideas. Keep focusing on gun control if it makes you feel better.

I think most of the shootings not just in the US but world wide have religious component.

 

[Frothingslosh]

Honestly, all I really want to see done is to have certain glaring loopholes closed. Little things like being able to circumvent background checks by purchasing at a gun show, perhaps have the same level of tracking and training that is required with automobiles, and, I dunno, a law mandating that if people are considered too dangerous to board airplanes, then they're too dangerous to buy guns.

I've also always pointed out that the larger problem is the US culture of violence, but you ammosexuals always ignore that when I do. Let's face it, the 3400 American deaths from terrorism since 2001 trouble you far more than the 150,000 American deaths from firearms here in the States in the same time frame.

Keep ignoring the fact that virtually all of these shooting sprees are done with legally purchased weaponry if it makes you feel better.

 

[AccessBlaster]

Keep ignoring the fact that virtually all of these shooting sprees are done with legally purchased weaponry if it makes you feel better.

That is my point in a nut shell..pardon the pun. They are bought legally. And no it doesn't make me feel better.

To be honest I think most of us have more in common on this forum then not, Just my opinion.

 

[Frothingslosh]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that gun violence is a far larger issue than terrorism. I'm not saying to ignore terrorism, only that the threat is being blown VASTLY out of proportion in the US. I may change my mind if terrorists start launching daily rocket and suicide bomb attacks here, but I think we all know that the odds of that happening is virtually nil.

Your argument that there's no point in gun control because guns already exist is simply disingenuous, and it ignores the fact that not only are new guns being added to the population daily, but that there is virtually no real effort going into preventing them from getting into the hands of the people who absolutely should not have them. People keep saying that since existing gun control laws don't stop events like San Bernardino, then gun control shouldn't exist, and that's insanity. You may as well argue that people still murder, so laws against murder shouldn't exist; that people still commit ra**, so laws against ra** shouldn't exist; that laws against child molestation don't stop child molesters, so those laws shouldn't exist. None of those laws, after all, prevent the crime either; they simply punish offenders and attempt to deter people from committing them in the first place. But somehow, for no logical reason, gun control laws are different? Horse crap.

Nor am I saying that gun control is some magical panacea that will solve all of America's problems. It is simply the legal equivalent of bandaging a wound to stop the bleeding long enough to get the victim to the surgeon so he can remove the bullet fragments and try to repair the damage. The base problem is that America glorifies violence and always has. It's literally everywhere, from our slang to our television to our legal system. It's perfectly acceptable to beat someone up for calling you names. We have 'wars' on this and that. We demolish tough odors and kill bugs dead. Our most popular shows and movies tend to have enough violence to HORRIFY our European neighbors at the same time we baffle them by our reactions to a woman daring to show a breast on TV. Our most popular games are about warfare, murder, and criminality.

And now we have celebrities calling for all liberals to be executed. We have presidential candidates spouting the Nazi party line, only about Muslims rather than Jews. We have people firebombing Mosques, people executing black churchgoers because they're black, and, yes, religious extremists shooting up a workplace. We have cops ventilating 12 year-olds with their hands in their pockets because they're afraid the kid has a gun. We have criminals going around ambushing cops, children shooting up schools, and people carrying assault rifles into K-Mart just hoping someone will try a robbery so they can play hero.

Do I think somewhat stricter gun control will fix all that? No, but I know damned well ignoring the problem altogether will do even less, and that's all that praying about it is. Closing those few loopholes, however, may save LIVES, and survey after survey has shown that actual gun owners overwhelmingly SUPPORT closing the known loopholes on background checks, the only real subset of gun owners opposing it being the diehard NRA fanboys. The *ONLY* reason that gets shot down every single week is because GOP senators need to keep earning their NRA paychecks.

The only real solution here would be for America to give up its violence fetish (and I'm as bad as any - I love my war-based strategy and role-playing games, my movies like Terminator and Avengers, and tv shows like NCIS), but that kind of change requires both a political will that isn't there and decades to enact, and that just isn't going to happen.

So yeah, I'm going to continue trying to apply bandages until we can find the surgeon.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Colin

Gun owning in the USA is a big joke to most everyone outside the USA. And those that own guns are obviously brain dead one celled freaks.

I believe this is a bit excessive.

I will also have to tell you that I personally know some folks for whom all it took was ONE confrontation for them to change their minds. One that comes to mind is "Bob T" (I'll omit last names in respect to his privacy) who had been confronted in the past - but then one night he and his wife were confronted by a young gun-wielding thug. Bob was carrying a licensed pistol and had been trained in proper use thereof. The thug became distracted by looking at Bob's wife's jewelry. Shortly after that, the thug got punctured - three rounds to the chest. Died on the scene. Bob and his wife walked away unscathed. No charges were filed.

Now, let's be honest, the problem wasn't Bob's gun. It was the thug's gun, and THAT was obtained illegally. Gun laws only affect law-abiding citizens. Criminals don't care that they have unlicensed and illegally obtained weapons. What's one more broken law to them?

Frothingslosh - As I recall, the Japanese feint didn't work so well. It led to the Battle of Midway that resulted in four of their carriers being sunk, not to mention several other ships. That led to the Great Mariannas Turkey Shoot, which was even a worse disaster for their navy. My thanks to your grandfather for his part in that operation.

My father was not a combatant in WWII because of his age AND he was in a preferred occupation - shipbuilder. He worked at the Higgins shipyards here in New Orleans making the so-called Liberty ships. Every WWII afficianado remembers the "Higgins boats" - the LCACs used to bring troops and vehicles to the beach on D-Day. But very few remember the other thing that Higgins turned out in high numbers - Liberty ships.

 

[AccessBlaster]

Your argument that there's no point in gun control because guns already exist is simply disingenuous, and it ignores the fact that not only are new guns being added to the population daily, but that there is virtually no real effort going into preventing them from getting into the hands of the people who absolutely should not have them.

I think you mischaracterize my position sightly. I support most if not all current gun laws (I don't claim to know all the gun laws in all the states). What I am not a fan of is duplication of any laws out of desperation or feelings.
I am not a big fan of military type assault weapons or large banana clips.

When I piss off the left and the right, I know I am in a good place.

 

[Frothingslosh]

Frothingslosh - As I recall, the Japanese feint didn't work so well. It led to the Battle of Midway that resulted in four of their carriers being sunk, not to mention several other ships. That led to the Great Mariannas Turkey Shoot, which was even a worse disaster for their navy. My thanks to your grandfather for his part in that operation.

My father was not a combatant in WWII because of his age AND he was in a preferred occupation - shipbuilder. He worked at the Higgins shipyards here in New Orleans making the so-called Liberty ships. Every WWII afficianado remembers the "Higgins boats" - the LCACs used to bring troops and vehicles to the beach on D-Day. But very few remember the other thing that Higgins turned out in high numbers - Liberty ships.

The big reason it didn't work so well was because we had broken the code the Japanese were using, and the obviously didn't know. Because of that, we knew about both Midway and the Aleutians. The Aleutian campaign went on for a couple weeks, but it was completely one-sided. Midway, on the other hand, was very much touch-and-go because both sides were having difficulty finding one another, plus the Japanese had detached their battleships in order to hide them, which prevented those ships from being able to attack the American carriers. It still took some pretty ballsy calls by Nimitz, since they were effectively fighting at parity. Among other things, he was sending in bombing runs without fighter cover just to keep up the pressure, and the Japanese thought they had done more damage than they actually had, as they thought they had sunk the Yorktown after the first wave and that they were attacking a different carrier later. It was the beginning of the end for the IJN, but it was a close thing.

As to Liberty Ships, I had heard of them a long time ago but had to look them up again for a refresher. Honestly, I think your father's contribution was, in the long run, a bit more helpful than my grandfather's Alaskan telephone poles.

 

[Frothingslosh]

I think you mischaracterize my position sightly. I support most if not all current gun laws (I don't claim to know all the gun laws in all the states). What I am not a fan of is duplication of any laws out of desperation or feelings.
I am not a big fan of military type assault weapons or large banana clips.

When I piss off the left and the right, I know I am in a good place.

Heh

I just get SO tired of people saying "gun control laws didn't stop <atrocity du jour>, so we shouldn't even bother with them". It is, as I demonstrated, a GIGANTIC logical fallacy.

You already need to go through a background check if you purchase or win a gun from a business. Why NOT close the loophole that lets you skip the check when you buy them at a gun show?

Before we are allowed to drive a vehicle, it has to be registered. Cars are dangerous, but they aren't weapons, so why aren't WEAPONS required to be registered in so many states? (The firearms license the individual gets is more analogous to the drivers' licence than the vehicle registration.) A good summary on the case for registration laws is HERE. And yet the NRA and the ammosexuals treat that like it's the final step before rounding up white people and shooting them.

(Yes, yes, I know it's because they are convinced that the government will just take the list and use it to kill everyone with guns. Because we all know US soldiers are unthinking automatons with no free will, and that the primary requirement for POTUS is he be a traitor and part of the NWO's plan to destroy America for the evulz.)

Rifles that meet the 'assault' designation - pistol grip, optimum range from 100 to 150 feet, clip fed, I forget what else - have one purpose and one purpose only: to kill people. They aren't hunting weapons, and they aren't feasible for self-defense situations. They are for when you are going out to kill people. The same applies to extended magazines - their only use is to enable the killing of more people between reloads. That's why both were developed by various military organizations.

And let me finish with an appropriate commentary on the feasibility of US citizens with their AR-15's actually managing to resist the US Government:

Ok, fine… lets come up with a cause worth fighting for. Lets say that Obama refuses to step down in 2016, and he not only declares himself dictator-for-life, but he also starts dressing like Ghadaffi, decrees that the national religion shall be Islam, the national language will be Klingon, there will be an efficient rail network in the United States, the writ of Prima Noctae is now in effect, and there shall be martial law to enforce all of the above, as well as any other laws that the President invents, on a daily basis.

We managed to preserve our right to keep military grade rifles and machine guns, so we all muster down on the Town Common with our guns. We tried voting. We tried protesting. This is a reasonable time to start with the armed insurrection stuff.

So, you, me, all our neighbors, hell our entire city builds a perimeter around it. We fill sandbags, we all have ammunition, we all have food, water, supplies, and most importantly, we are all unified and in complete solidarity.

And we stand there, resisting whatever it is the government was going to do to us.

And then they fly over with one jet, dropping one FAE bomb, and roll in with three tanks, and in about 12 hours, our "resistance" is reduced to a few smoking holes.