I believe Slavery was an Evolutionary Step... (1 Viewer)

Uncle Gizmo

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Over the past few years I have learnt a lot from Dr Jordan Peterson. I have learnt that our thoughts and actions are often driven by instinct. These are Instincts, not just human evolved, but also instincts from the creatures that humans evolved from, and not just mammals, evolution going right back to amoebas!

It is clear that evolution is a major mechanism in a physical sense, and in our actions and instincts. I believe slavery was such an Evolutionary step and Slavery played a major role in human development. Anyone want to debate!
 

The_Doc_Man

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Since you mentioned "human development" I have to consider that you also mean "humans enslaving other humans." (I know, it is rather obvious, but sometimes you need to be clear where you are going.) Let's explore the "evolution" idea, at least, by asking an implied question or two.

There is a basic principle that something persists (on the evolutionary time-line) if there is an advantage for it to persist or at least that there is no disadvantage associated with it (i.e. to persist, you must gain advantage or at worst break even). For slavery to persist, there must be a persistent reason. BUT there is also a secondary effect here. Evolution includes an element commonly called "survival of the fittest." To uphold the premise that slavery is in some way evolutionary, you must ALSO explain why the less fit nonetheless survive. It even gets worse than that, since there is only one (human) race and thus you cannot actually claim a racial advantage - the slavers and enslaved are of the same race. (This latter point is proved by multi-generational cross-fertility between the groups.)

It is also possible to discuss behavior that leads to slavery or other variants of dominance, but there, we open Pandora's Box of ways of dominance, including physical, sexual, monetary, political, intellectual.... In that sense, you could say that slavery is actually a hold-over of the tendency of tribes of animals (not limited to humans) to establish dominance over a territory, to assure "the ascendancy of me and mine over thee and thine." In which case you would have to say that slavery per se is merely a symptom of our saurian territorial instincts based on the survival factor that a herd of critters must have a certain square footage to support themselves, to have sustainable food sources sufficient not only for the males but for their mates or breeding critters.

Tribes would thus chase away other tribes so they could have larger hunting grounds. Males in a herd would chase away rivals for the best females (or the most, or both). And in modern terms, businesses compete and hope they can sink their competition.

Therefore, my question is whether your premise includes the possibility that slavery is merely one manifestation of evolutionary tendencies for tribal survival behavior, in this case by cutting off the access of the dominated to a means of survival.

That should be enough to start at least SOME discussion.
 

Steve R.

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Consider the economic angle. Today, we have many automated devices (machines) that save us personal labor. In primitive per-industrial societies that meant that if you wanted to wash your clothes you had to do it yourself. Expend personal effort in labor and time.

Logically, what would you do with the inhabitants of an "enemy" town or with individuals who break your town's (tribe's) societal culture? Kill them?
That is a waste of "free" labor (machine). Better to have someone else "forced" to do your work you. So the inhabitants of "enemy" towns and individuals who break societal views become your "machinery" (labor saving device and property) to provide the extra labor to your family and/or tribe for a higher standard of living.
 
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Uncle Gizmo

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Kill them?

Exactly what I thought, making them "slaves" instead of killing them, is a humane solution and an evolutionary step in the right direction.

Something else I thought of, it's similar to a hostage situation where you have Stockholm Syndrome, there is the possibility of an Emotional bond forming between captors and captives.
 

Uncle Gizmo

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Therefore, my question is whether your premise includes the possibility that slavery is merely one manifestation of evolutionary tendencies for tribal survival behavior,

I'm not sure... I arrived at my conclusion by thinking what happened before slavery. It occurred to me that the winner of a warring group would often kill all of the males in the opposing force. This seemed wasteful and I realised a better option might be to enslave the opposing force. This is obviously a step in the right direction, and would indirectly allow the two groups to get to know each other better, possibly help resolve their differences. I mean it's obvious something like this happened because we have all survived and we don't go around killing each other!
 

The_Doc_Man

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It occurred to me that the winner of a warring group would often kill all of the males in the opposing force.
See, for example, the Amalekites. Killed all the adult males, enslaved the women and children. See the book of Samuel for an account of the incident. It's Biblical, so it goes back pretty far. In fact, that was the time just after Exodus and before the time of the book of Kings, specifically before David (1010 BCE) and Solomon (970 BCE) or somewhat over 3000 years ago.

I realised a better option might be to enslave the opposing force. This is obviously a step in the right direction
I'm not sure how you can characterize this as "right direction" without having cast your own morals onto that situation. Not that your morals are wrong OR right... but rather, that statement presumes that evolution is going to make a moral choice and - so far as I know - evolution has no morals. Evolution doesn't always resolve differences - but might lead to symbiosis (a truce) at some point. For evolution, the choice is always "survive - or don't." <<<Sudden mental association: Yoda voice saying "There is no try, ... there is only do or die." >>>

I mean it's obvious something like this happened because we have all survived and we don't go around killing each other!
Ah, but the answer to that is that somewhere in this mix: you have to distinguish between nature and nurture.

Moral behavior (not killing your rival) is the result of at least some degree of nurture, I think. The laws of Man that eventually became part of the 10 commandments simply represent that if you are a bad neighbor and do bad things (theft, adultery, violence, murder), you will be cast out of the tribe and sent to live alone in the wilderness - pretty much a death sentence. Expulsion from the tribe appears to have been a common punishment in the time prior to the beginnings of urbanization, or at least some anthropologists believe so. Tribal people knew that and so learned from their parents or from witnessing exile (of others) as a child that if you did certain things, you got sent away and might not survive the experience.
 

Uncle Gizmo

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Moral behavior (not killing your rival) is the result of at least some degree of nurture

I think it's built in, like an instinct.

For example, see this lion saving a frog from a snake:-

 

The_Doc_Man

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If that was a Cajun lion, his next act would be against the frog because Cajun-fried frog legs are a real delicacy. Do you know if the lion was merely stopping the snake from getting what he wanted later?
 

Pat Hartman

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I think the lion just liked the taste of snake more than the taste of frog. He tried to eat the snake:)

Did you see the next video?

It's by an engineer who set up a bird feeder to watch birds and then got obsessed with the squirrels and how they were always able to defeat his bird feeders so he made them an obstacle course with their favorite bird feeder as the last stop. His second squirrel video is also pretty amazing too. We had an oak tree about 8 feet from our front door and the squirrel who lived there used to throw nuts at my cat to annoy him.

Regarding Slavery. It is still alive and well in many places all over the world so I don't think the human race has evolved to not feel the need to enslave the weak. In the US it is generally sex slavery but in China and other very poor countries, they also use slaves to work in factories. We condone this buy buying the cheap stuff they make.
 
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Uncle Gizmo

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Years ago I had a run in with some Gypsies. The gypsy kids were taking the copper wire from some earth moving equipment stored in a field I was charged with protecting.

I went to their camp, and spoke to a woman about it. The men were out at work.

She asked me if I was married? Did I have children? It was a bit odd. She warned me not to take it further, or I'd end up being "something" I can't remember the term she used, but things fell in to place later, and I realised that if I had pursued it I would have become the "something", which was a slave...

More here about Slavery in the UK:-

 

The_Doc_Man

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The_Doc_Man

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Of course, what everyone forgets is that the British who sold the slaves GOT them from the victors in a tribal war. Slaves were "spoils of war" in Africa at the time that the first slaves were sold to North American land owners. Tribal warfare was commonplace in Africa at that time, and in fact is still commonplace. As recently as 1994, there was a war between two ethnic tribes, the Tutsis and Hutus in Rwanda. If you take a look at what is going on in the Darfur region in Sudan, you will find that slavery is rampant, particularly sex slavery as the result of that conflict.
 

ColinEssex

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My home city of Bristol was built on the riches from slavery. Edward Colston was a prolific slave trader, and Bristol made millions from the USA who needed slaves. In Bristol, there are many examples of how slave money benefitted the city. If it wasn't for slaves, Bristol would have to rely more on smuggling and exploitation of women for dubious activities. Slaves were more lucrative though.
Col
 

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