Have you ever been pressured into building something with a bad design? (1 Viewer)

[Deleted Bruce 182381]

My neighbor who owns a machine shop wants me to upgrade an A2003 app I built for his Dad back in 2006. This was the first Access app I ever built. I haven't touched this app in 15 years. The app works, but I wasn't experienced when I built it, so I will have to refactor lots of code, and get rid of forms like "CashCustomers" ... Yeah, I used to let stakeholders talk me into doing ridiculous requests, like "I wan't a separate form for cash customers". Have you ever been persuaded into building something you knew was utterly ridiculous?

 

[CJ_London]

Been asked - yes, pursuaded - no

Last one a couple of years ago was for a theatre company - an employee had built it using only macros and no documentation. And data wasn’t properly normalised. It handled show bookings and some elements of production and staffing rotas. They wanted to license it out to other theatres. It looked good but was difficult to use.

I said no, doubly so when they told me their budget

 

[dalski]

Life is short, do what you want I think. But credit to you, it mustn't be that bad for 15 years of use & so happy that don't want to greatly deviate.

 

[tvanstiphout]

It's a great time to think about new features. Often as a beginner we can present the data, but are not yet thinking much about what to do with it.
For example, are there alerts about quotes that are past due? Orders that are stuck in the process? Can quotes be copied from a template or a previous quote?
Is there excellent data range validation preventing illogical data?
Can customer-facing reports and emails be redesigned with modern font and layout?

 

[tvanstiphout]

You may also want to consider SQL Server for the BE. Opens up new capabilities, in addition to a more stable and secure BE.

 

[DHookom]

I had an internal customer who designed the fields for me and stated there would always only be two steps in a process so there is no need to normalize. I actually built the application with the proper structure under the hood. After a few months the customer asked what it would take to add more steps. I complained and set it would take days. So, I spent a few days answering questions in Access forums and changed a value in a setup table (taking one minute) and redistributed the app.

 

[DHookom]

I had two manufacturing clients at the same time and was creating similar production reports. One client was basically averaging averages or something similar that overstated production which over paid bonuses. I was called into a meeting to explain my findings with the production manager (hired me and got the bonus) and the CFO. I gave the CFO a simple example with three production shifts (6 numbers). He took his calculator to another room for a few minutes. When he came back, he said I was correct. The production supervisor fired me.

A couple years later, I was hired full-time by the other manufacturing company.

 

[DHookom]

The calculations the production supervisor wanted me to use were wrong creating higher bonuses. I’m not sure why I was let go, if it was because I found his error or I found his error .

I also avoid using yes/no fields since the future holds lots of “maybes”.

 

[Imb]

Yeah, I used to let stakeholders talk me into doing ridiculous requests, like "I wan't a separate form for cash customers". Have you ever been persuaded into building something you knew was utterly ridiculous?

No, never persuaded. But I did feel why they were asking something that they could handle, and understandable for them.
Especially older people, or not technical skilled, don't think in normalized data. And thus are not always happy with the way structured programs work.

But this brings me to a different interpretation of your title:
"Have you ever been confronted with building something with a design that others think it is utterly ridiculous?"

In that case: yes!

I must agree, the work I am doing is Access-unconventional: I use in principle unbound forms! And that is quite a statement!
The bounding of form controls to the fields makes form very, very static, apart from the fact that records can be locked.
In the proces of bounding the form "knows" where and how to store the information, but does nothing know about other wishes or constraints of the control as the user wants. For that you can use the BeforeUpdate or AfterUpdate events, but that introduces still more control dependencies.

Now take a 180 degrees turn, starting from the user. What are the properties of this control?
Store these in a metadate table, including the table and the field where the control "belongs to", and create the field in the BE.
Without going directly in the data-database, all is conducted from the FE, including all the controls behaviour. So, it is not necessary to have an in-between form between "user-controls" and table-fields, there is a complete separation. When entering a control on a form, a reference is made to the metadata table, and the control "knows" how to reach the corresponding field for retrieval or storage.
No lookup-tables, no comboboxes, no control classes, no form classes, no dependencies.

It is now possible to generalize all underlying processing, and thus automatically build applications. The form is just a carrier of "to-be-defined-controls", tuned by some code in modules, and the same form can be used for almost anything. Moreover, these form-definitions can be placed in a linked code-library, and shared over all applications.

Finally, because "forms" are completely dynamical, you can present your user "his/her form", not violating
normalization rules, including all wanted flexibilty.

​

 

[Cotswold]

In your position I'd go back and say you'd rather not do it. Or make up so excuse. Or simply tell him that you cannot put your name to the design he requires. It does appear that you have little enthusiasm in you doing the work and that is essential. You could spend a huge amount of your own time trying to turn a pigs ear into a silk purse and fail. It is possible that he'll never be happy with the result and the further on you go, the less you can escape.
Friends and relations can be difficult clients and if with hindsight they aren't happy, it will always be totally you fault!

 

[The_Doc_Man]

I guess the reason for wanting seperate forms and reports for cash customers was to hide that income?

I think it's called "double-entry bookkeeping" and if it is used to avoid paying taxes on otherwise untraceable transactions, it's kind of illegal.

So, I spent a few days answering questions in Access forums and changed a value in a setup table (taking one minute) and redistributed the app.

Which reminds me of the episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation in which Scotty survived a situation by getting caught in a transporter loop, from which he was rescued by the next generation's Enterprise. So in talking to Chief Engineer LaForge, Scotty is aghast to learn that Geordi has told the captain exactly how long something would take. And he says (paraphrasing): Laddie, ya dinna tell him the truth, did ya? Ya need to pad that a bit so as to keep up the illusion of being a miracle worker!

 

[AngelSpeaks]

Yes. Client was my hubby though and I knew I could save him time. The deliverable was a 98 column Excel csv with many duplicate column names that I couldn't change. The csv got uploaded to a state department of labor site and it was a new application. Several members here were of great help.

 

[CJ_London]

Someone I know (no names) has a business supplying and installing swimming pools, spas etc. During Covid he had a a lot of customers coming to him wanting to pay cash, no invoice -most were around £10k, largest one was nearly £30k. He though he was onto a winner until I pointed out to him that he still had to pay out quite a bit to his suppliers which he would not be able to put through the books, otherwise the business would go from profit to loss and HMRC have profiles on many business types as to what are considered reasonable gross/net margins among other stats. And did he really want to get a reputation for banking large amounts of cash to his personal account to pay the suppliers.

Many years ago, when I first started working, I worked for the investment management branch of a bank. We provided and managed what were called IMA's to manage clients investments. One client was a well known (at the time) Indian cricket player. Every six months or so, he would turn up with literally a suitcase full of money which we would bank and add to his IMA. Banking rules were a lot simpler back then.

 

[CJ_London]

much the same in the UK. Pretty sure there is also a flag raised if you withdraw large amounts of cash - not sure what the level is but would guess £10k

 

[Ken Sheridan]

In the UK the relevant thresholds are:

£10,000+: Deposits in this range, especially cash, have a high likelihood of being flagged for scrutiny.

£25,000+: Deposits of this size are almost certain to be flagged for review, and you will likely have to prove the source of the funds.

£50,000+: Large deposits may require formal source-of-funds verification.

The above amounts are daily aggregates.

Banks in the UK do not automatically notify HMRC about large deposits unless:

The deposit is flagged as suspicious under AML regulations.
It triggers a Suspicious Activity Report (SAR) to the National Crime Agency (NCA).
HMRC specifically requests financial data using a Financial Institution Notice (FIN)

 

[DHookom]

In the UK the relevant thresholds are:

£10,000+: Deposits in this range, especially cash, have a high likelihood of being flagged for scrutiny.

£25,000+: Deposits of this size are almost certain to be flagged for review, and you will likely have to prove the source of the funds.

£50,000+: Large deposits may require formal source-of-funds verification.

Banks in the UK do not automatically notify HMRC about large deposits unless:

The deposit is flagged as suspicious under AML regulations.
It triggers a Suspicious Activity Report (SAR) to the National Crime Agency (NCA).
HMRC specifically requests financial data using a Financial Institution Notice (FIN)

Ken, it’s a bit suspicious that you have such a deep understanding of these laws

 

[Ken Sheridan]

Ken, it’s a bit suspicious that you have such a deep understanding of these laws

Fair cop, guv. I'll come quietly!

 

[LarryE]

Fair cop, guv. I'll come quietly!

You can't get away with anything in the UK with Jane Marple poking her nose in everyone's business. And if she doesn't get ya well then Endeavor Morse will. And don't even get me started on DCI Barnaby (both of them). Obviously, my wife is addicted to BritBox...

 

[DHookom]

You can't get away with anything in the UK with Jane Marple poking her nose in everyone's business. And if she doesn't get ya well then Endeavor Morse will. And don't even get me started on DCI Barnaby (both of them). Obviously, my wife is addicted to BritBox...

My wife has drug me into watching all of these.

 

[Ken Sheridan]

..........then Endeavor Morse will.

Funnily, in my time in Oxford in the late 60s/early 70s I never stumbled across any bodies on the river bank, or found a corpse in a college room.