Are you an atheist?

Are you an atheist?


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A very wise scholar once said:

"Religion is like a penis. It's fine to have one and it's fine to be proud of it, but please don't whip it out in public and start waving it around... and PLEASE don't try to shove it down my child's throat."

:D
 
Aziz can I ask if Muslim girls wanted to take part in Triathlons or outside sport would it be allowed by their beliefs to forego covering in order to take part in sporting events.

While head coverings in some sports could be worn in others it is not very practical and possibly a hindrance.

I saw a girl jogging the other day with a head covering. It must be a hindrance. And in Triathlons it is not really possible until they are out of the swim and on the bike / run. Plus it could obscure vision although I guess if there was enough demand you might get a sports burkha.
 
Brian, you are not a Muslim so whatever I say may sound unintelligent to you. But if you asked a Muslim, they might agree with what I say. So it depends from which direction you are coming from.

If you start with the assumption that the Qu'ran is the word of God, anything that contradicts it can be ignored. However what you say is still not intelligent because it contradicts the facts.

For example you claimed that polygyny is justified by the excess of men over women. I linked to official statistics which unambiguously showed the basis of your claim was incorrect. There is no excess of women in the marriageable demographic.

You then repeated the same false claim which I again pointed out was incorrect. And your latest reply:
I am entitled to my views much as you dislike it.

You are entitled to your view even though it contradicts the observed facts. I also believe I am entitled to consider that you are, quite objectively, stupid and ignorant to hold this view since it is contrary to the facts.

As has been repeatedly pointed out, a religious faith is an irrational point of view which, far from being the basis of an good way to live, is actually nothing more than institutionalised ignorance and bigotry.

The subject of modesty is not rocket science. It is clear with all societies that certain norms of decencies are required and is not a subject that should be difficult to understand. When I said that a woman has more to cover this was natural. After all a woman could not walk about as a man would if he was bare chested. Hence the question of modesty for a woman is more than for a man.

Your presumption that it is "natural" for a women to cover more, particularly "head to foot" is a fallacy. Both men and women in many cultures in Africa, North and South America, Australia, New Guinea and the Pacific Islands lived almost naked and in some places they still do. Bare breasted women is quite natural.

The only basis for your position is your book from which you will no doubt again copiously quote in what you consider is a "response".

During the Days of Ignorance 14 centuries ago, women used to show their cleavage and would be pestered by men.

So Mohammed and his like decided in their "wisdom" that the problem is the woman (as usual). In an intelligent society with a reasoned morality we realise that the problem is not with the women but the attitude of the men.

Unfortunately adherents to the primitive misogynist idology of the Abrahamic religions, have elevated this prejudice to a point where they are more than happy to oblige with proof that women who are not completely covered are vulnerable to sexual assault. Then they and others blame the woman for displeasing Allah.

In fact the psychopathic attitude to women and sexuality displayed by the authors of the holy books underpins the dysfunction observed in men in the societies inhabited by the followers of this twisted philosophy.

God asked the believing women to cover themselves up so as to distinguish them from the unbelievers.
As I keep telling you, it is obvious that not a God but ancient, ignorant, misogynist men wrote those books. However your sentence does allude to the real reason these men included that direction. Women not dressed to their satisfaction were considered to be of the enemy and were hence fair game for ra** as a reward in battle.

You continue to reveal the extraordinary depth of your bigotry and arrogance when you respond to my posting that the financial business of a couple is their own private business.
There is no couple as you put it. A man can only marry when he has the means. Only then you can refer to them as a couple, not before.
 
Brian, did you not read the explanation regarding the jilbaab that I gave? The covering of the face and hands is not given in the Qur'an.

On the subject of the man being the provider and that he should not marry unless he can provide, both of my daughters earn considerably more than their partners, one well qualified over twice as much, the others husband had to give up his job due to a disabling condition and now earns far less as a care worker involving long hours for a low wage. All are happy but presumably they should separate according to your laws.

I said that a man could not marry until he can provide food, clothing and shelter. The same situation does not apply once you are married if for genuine reasons the husband is unable to meet these demands. There was no indication in my post where anyone would separate as you put it. I think you are inferring something that was not given in my post. You could have asked the question what would happen if a husband was unable to meet these demands during his life as a husband\father.

The fact that a woman may be earning more than her husband does not mean that the husband necessarily can't provide the three articles I mentioned above. The wife can voluntarily add her earnings to the pot if she wishes but it cannot be taken from her by force. The wife can also give a loan (without any interest) to her husband and waive it if the situation is such that her husband cannot repay it. In the extreme case where a man is unable to provide at all due to say illness then of course the wife can take over the role of the bread winner.

Similarly any inheritance that a woman receives is hers alone to do as she wishes whilst any inheritamce that a man receives is normally used for the family. That is why a man receives 2 shares and a woman receives 1 share as the man's financial responsibility is greater. People often say this is unjust but fail to obtain the reasons behind it.
 
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Aziz can I ask if Muslim girls wanted to take part in Triathlons or outside sport would it be allowed by their beliefs to forego covering in order to take part in sporting events.

A Muslim woman can involve themselves in sport providing that they are following the rules of modesty. It would be non sensical for a woman who has reached the age of puberty and be asked to cover herself in a modest way and then say that the rules change when they indulge in sport or whatever it happens to be. For example a Muslim woman can go swimming in a swimming pool with other woman providing there are no men present. That is why some sports centres allow specific woman only sessions. I'm sure that non Muslim woman may also feel comfortable with this as there are no prying male eyes. After all, why do we insist on separate female and male wards in hospitals?

If a Muslim woman wants to indulge in any sport where she would have to compromise her Islamic faith, then the Islamic faith must first. This also applies to men.

I saw a girl jogging the other day with a head covering. It must be a hindrance.

In your opinion. I have often seen men jogging with a hoody on.
 
Galaxiom, you can always say that in a particular time and place there may be more men than women or an equal amount but generally speaking that has not historically been the case as I said due to man made wars. If you look at the end of the world wars there were more women to men. Therefore on a general level what I am saying is correct based on my facts. If you want to disgree then that's fine. As I said you are entitled to your opinion according to the facts you are giving but I am right according to the facts I am presenting and therefore there is no contradiction as far as I am concerned.

Say: O Allah! Creator of the heavens and the earth! Knower of the Invisible and the Visible! Thou wilt judge between Thy slaves concerning that wherein they used to differ. 039.046

As has been repeatedly pointed out, a religious faith is an irrational point of view which, far from being the basis of an good way to live, is actually nothing more than institutionalised ignorance and bigotry.

You cannot undermine me buy using such language. I will express my opinion much as you dislike it.

Your presumption that it is "natural" for a women to cover more, particularly "head to foot" is a fallacy. Both men and women in many cultures in Africa, North and South America, Australia, New Guinea and the Pacific Islands lived almost naked and in some places they still do. Bare breasted women is quite natural.

So why in the western world woman are not allowed to go about in public bare chested on a hot day? In the countries you mentioned, if Muslim woman went about bare chested they would be committing a sin.

The only basis for your position is your book from which you will no doubt again copiously quote in what you consider is a "response".

Hmmm, seems that quoting from the Qur’an somehow irks you. Well here’s other verses for you to reflect on.

Lo! We have revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture for mankind with truth. Then whosoever goeth right it is for his soul, and whosoever strayeth, strayeth only to its hurt. And thou art not a warder over them. 039.041

Say: O My bondmen who believe! Observe your duty to your Lord. For those who do good in this world there is good, and Allah's earth is spacious. Verily the steadfast will be paid their wages without stint. 39.010

Is he whose bosom Allah hath expanded for Al-Islam, so that he followeth a light from his Lord, (as he who disbelieveth)? Then woe unto those whose hearts are hardened against remembrance of Allah. Such are in plain error. 39.022

So Mohammed and his like decided in their "wisdom" that the problem is the woman (as usual). In an intelligent society with a reasoned morality we realise that the problem is not with the women but the attitude of the men.
The commands come from God. Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) simply enacted the commands of God.

The reason why men and women are asked to cover themselves up in public is so that neither gender is mentally corrupted.

Unfortunately adherents to the primitive misogynist idology of the Abrahamic religions, have elevated this prejudice to a point where they are more than happy to oblige with proof that women who are not completely covered are vulnerable to sexual assault. Then they and others blame the woman for displeasing Allah.

A woman is not necessarily going to be sexually assaulted, but can be verbally hindered. We see that in western societies. Again you go to the wrong end of the discussion by your incorrect assumptions when you talk about woman displeasing Allaah. The rules are there so that society can live in a decent way. Why in the UK recently have the UK government been talking about the harm that porn is having on people? Do western men not find it objectionable when some strange man ogles his wife|sister etc. in public?

As I keep telling you, it is obvious that not a God but ancient, ignorant, misogynist men wrote those books. However your sentence does allude to the real reason these men included that direction.

040.035 Those who wrangle concerning the revelations of Allah without any warrant that hath come unto them, it is greatly hateful in the sight of Allah and in the sight of those who believe. Thus doth Allah print on every arrogant, disdainful heart.

Women not dressed to their satisfaction were considered to be of the enemy and were hence fair game for ra** as a reward in battle.

What have you been drinking?

You continue to reveal the extraordinary depth of your bigotry and arrogance when you respond to my posting that the financial business of a couple is their own private business.

Me thinks that you were still drunk when you wrote this. Why, in general, should the financial affairs of a married couple not be there own private business? If a couple require help, then of course they can ask for it as we Muslims can give zakah (charity) to each other as and when required, but in general there financial affairs is there business.
 
003.016 Those who say: Our Lord! Lo! we believe. So forgive us our sins and guard us from the punishment of Fire;

003.017 The steadfast, and the truthful, and the obedient, those who spend (and hoard not), those who pray for pardon in the watches of the night.

003.018 Allah (Himself) is Witness that there is no God save Him. And the angels and the men of learning (too are witness). Maintaining His creation in justice, there is no God save Him the Almighty, the Wise.

003.019 Lo! religion with Allah (is) the Surrender (to His Will and Guidance). Those who (formerly) received the Scripture differed only after knowledge came unto them, through transgression among themselves. Whoso disbelieveth the revelations of Allah (will find that) lo! Allah is swift at reckoning.

003.020 And if they argue with thee, (O Muhammad), say: I have surrendered my purpose to Allah and (so have) those who follow me. And say unto those who have received the Scripture and those who read not: Have ye (too) surrendered? If they surrender, then truly they are rightly guided, and if they turn away, then it is thy duty only to convey the message (unto them). Allah is Seer of (His) bondmen.

003.021 Lo! those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah, and slay the prophets wrongfully, and slay those of mankind who enjoin equity: promise them a painful doom.

003.022 Those are they whose works have failed in the world and the Hereafter; and they have no helpers.
 
003.016 Those who say: Our Lord! Lo! we believe. So forgive us our sins and guard us from the punishment of Fire;

003.017 The steadfast, and the truthful, and the obedient, those who spend (and hoard not), those who pray for pardon in the watches of the night.

003.018 Allah (Himself) is Witness that there is no God save Him. And the angels and the men of learning (too are witness). Maintaining His creation in justice, there is no God save Him the Almighty, the Wise.

003.019 Lo! religion with Allah (is) the Surrender (to His Will and Guidance). Those who (formerly) received the Scripture differed only after knowledge came unto them, through transgression among themselves. Whoso disbelieveth the revelations of Allah (will find that) lo! Allah is swift at reckoning.

003.020 And if they argue with thee, (O Muhammad), say: I have surrendered my purpose to Allah and (so have) those who follow me. And say unto those who have received the Scripture and those who read not: Have ye (too) surrendered? If they surrender, then truly they are rightly guided, and if they turn away, then it is thy duty only to convey the message (unto them). Allah is Seer of (His) bondmen.

003.021 Lo! those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah, and slay the prophets wrongfully, and slay those of mankind who enjoin equity: promise them a painful doom.

003.022 Those are they whose works have failed in the world and the Hereafter; and they have no helpers.
And your point is???
 
Aziz, you can't make references and quotes from the Holy Qura'an until you've established that it's a common credible source to everyone on here. In which case it isn't.

Bottom line is, religion and logic will never go hand in hand, and as a Muslim, you're requested to obey and not question aka "Having Faith".
 
In your opinion. I have often seen men jogging with a hoody on.

Aziz thanks for answering.

I suspect however you don't run much.

In my town people running in hoodies are the ones distancing themselves from the scene of a crime.
 
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I said that a man could not marry until he can provide food, clothing and shelter. The same situation does not apply once you are married if for genuine reasons the husband is unable to meet these demands. There was no indication in my post where anyone would separate as you put it. I think you are inferring something that was not given in my post. You could have asked the question what would happen if a husband was unable to meet these demands during his life as a husband\father.

You made it perfectly clear that under Islam there "is no couple" unless the man can meet this artificial demand. You spell out how the woman can loan money to the man and who gets what. Indeed you insult many couples with this assertion, including me and my wife.

Quite frankly financial arrangements of a couple are absolutely no business of anyone else. The decree by the church that they cannot marry is just another fascist facet of your bigoted doctrine.
 
And your point is???
As a believer in God, I thought I would include the chosen verses into the mix.
Who knows, someone reading the verses may incline towards the TRUTH who have not done so already, insha-allaah and be saved from torment for eternity. That someone can go back to the poll and say they believe in God.

Aziz, you can't make references and quotes from the Holy Qur'an until you've established that it's a common credible source to everyone on here. In which case it isn't.

I placed many Qur’anic verses in this thread to show that the Qur’an could not be the work of man as the verses talk about science which was unknown at the time of revelation. For example it was in the 1920’s that Alexander Freidmann (http://www.pbs.org/wnet/hawking/universes/html/univ_fried.html) who first came up with the idea of how the universe could have been created using the science of Mathematics. Edwin Hubble was able to subsequently show that we had an expanding universe using Physical science. How, if man or men wrote the Qur’an 14 centuries ago, did man come to this knowledge?

Bottom line is, religion and logic will never go hand in hand, and as a Muslim, you're requested to obey and not question aka "Having Faith".

I can give you many examples of where religion and logic do go hand in hand. As a Muslim I obey God after having established that God exists. So it’s not blind obedience as you seem to be suggesting. There are Muslims who would do just that, but that is normally because they may not be educated enough in Islam to conclusively believe in God in comparison to those Muslims who have reflected|pondered|reasoned their way to belief.

I suspect however you don't run much.

In my town people running in hoodies are the ones distancing themselves from the scene of a crime.

Not anymore but I was young once so I know that it’s not a hindrance. If a Muslim woman wears a hijab (head scarf), I don’t quite see why this would be a hindrance to her whilst she is jogging! It seems to me that such comments show an underlying pettiness towards Muslim woman for no good reason. It’s no wonder that Muslim woman living in the west feel that they are constantly under attack by non-Muslims. They have my heartfelt sympathies.

You made it perfectly clear that under Islam there "is no couple" unless the man can meet this artificial demand.
What’s artificial about it? Surely these are things (food, clothing, shelter) we need to survive on! In the west I hear on many occasions when a man is rebuked if he does not go out and earn for his family when he has no obstacles. There is absolutely nothing artificial about it all as these are things by which the western societies also live by. How many parents would be happy for their daughter to marry a man who is unable to meet these important articles? How many western woman would want to marry a man who is unable to support her?

In Islam, there is no free mixing of men and women, which is why the issue of a couple doesn’t come into the picture.

You spell out how the woman can loan money to the man and who gets what. Indeed you insult many couples with this assertion, including me and my wife.

What she gets is the reward for helping her husband. Life as a Muslim is not just what you get here in this life but what you take forward in the hereafter. I don’t quite understand why you would be insulted!!! If a woman wishes to help her husband when he has fallen through hard times, what’s so insulting about that? For someone who throws a lot of insults about, you seem particularly sensitive about something where no insult was even given!!! Go figure.

Quite frankly financial arrangements of a couple are absolutely no business of anyone else.

But that’s what I said in my last post. Whatever the financial issues a married couple have is their own business. Don’t understand what your objection is as you seem to be agreeing with me?

The decree by the church that they cannot marry is just another fascist facet of your bigoted doctrine.

There is no church in Islam. We have Masjids. So you’re mixing your establishments a bit. A church represents that which diagrammatically opposite to Islam. As you’re not a Muslim, most things about Islam will seem abhorrent to you. That, I’m afraid is your problem. It does not affect my faith one iota or indeed the Islamic faith of other Muslims.
 
Aziz thanks for answering.

I suspect however you don't run much.

In my town people running in hoodies are the ones distancing themselves from the scene of a crime.


pmsl So true!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
How, if man or men wrote the Qur’an 14 centuries ago, did man come to this knowledge?

Huh? That doesn't make any sense.

As a Muslim I obey God after having established that God exists. So it’s not blind obedience as you seem to be suggesting.

All those blindly obedient believe this. If you cannot give an example of something that could occur that would prove to you that Islam is false, then your are blindly obedient.
 
Huh? That doesn't make any sense.

Can you explain why in the context of what I wrote?

All those blindly obedient believe this. If you cannot give an example of something that could occur that would prove to you that Islam is false, then your are blindly obedient.

Huh? That doesn't make any sense.

But their is no example of something that could occur that would prove to me that Islam is false.

God tells us that if the Qur'an was from any other than God, there would be many contradictions. There are no contradictions in the Qur'an.
 
Can you explain why in the context of what I wrote?

Sure. How do you know that men many years ago were not aware of some of these things? Add to that the fact that you are selectively interpreting the Qur'an so that it matches these things. If a book that you believed in, written a thousand years ago said "ye, words will pass through air and water", you could say that showed the book knew about the invention of the telephone. But in truth, it means something totally different, and you're choose to interpret it that way, as you are blindly obedient to it.

But their is no example of something that could occur that would prove to me that Islam is false.

Then you are blindly obedient.
 
Sure. How do you know that men many years ago were not aware of some of these things? Add to that the fact that you are selectively interpreting the Qur'an so that it matches these things. If a book that you believed in, written a thousand years ago said "ye, words will pass through air and water", you could say that showed the book knew about the invention of the telephone. But in truth, it means something totally different, and you're choose to interpret it that way, as you are blindly obedient to it.

Can you give me an example of this from the creation verses I gave previously. If we begin with the first part of Qur'anic verse 21:30

Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? ...

What interpretation do you make from this verse with the knowledge that this is the only verse from 6,000+ Qur'anic verses which deals with the moment of creation of the universe. It's also important to note that where the words 'heavens and the earth' are mentioned in the Qur'an this refers to the universe. The word universe is not given in the Qur'an as it's a word that did not exist at the time. I have used Abdullah Yusuf Ali's translation but you are free to use any other.

Also you infer that the Qur'anic verses dealing with creation or science are necessarily ambiguous, but they are not. They are actually quite precise. So your assertion that I am blind is wrong unless you can find that to be the case with an example which you have not given.

I would say that you are blind simply because you did not provide an example which shows me that you are not interested in going into any detail in case you find the TRUTH.

Also I would be interested to know who before Alexander Friedmann gave the reason of how the universe began especially 14 centuries ago or beyond.

You will also note that those verses relating to creation|science in the Qur'an are all correct which is a big coincidence even if I play devil's advocate and all the knowledge was available (which it wasn't) at the time, how did man manage to decide which science would be proved right centuries later and ignore all the science that was around at the time that subsequently turned out to be incorrect.
 
What interpretation do you make from this verse with the knowledge that this is the only verse from 6,000+ Qur'anic verses which deals with the moment of creation of the universe.

My interpretation of that verse would be that the writer believes there are places called "heavens" and that those heavens were connected to the earth. If this is earth as in the planet Earth, or simply dirt or land, as the term earth has been used is uncertain. My interpretation would continue that a group of individuals then severed those connections between the multiple heavens and the earth (or Earth, depending).

Who the "we" is, is uncertain. I would assume that for this group of people (the we) to be able to sever connections between the multiple heavens and the earthly connections, they must have possessed magical abilities or special weapons of some sort as it would seem a task such as this would be beyond mortal ability.

So I guess I wonder would who these individuals were, and what powers they used to follow through with such a task.

Also you infer that the Qur'anic verses dealing with creation or science are necessarily ambiguous, but they are not.

They are not to you because you choose to believe they are automatically correct and infallible. As such, your mind can not possibly conceive any other alternatives. Those alternatives are blocked from your thinking process by your faith.

I would say that you are blind simply because you did not provide an example which shows me that you are not interested in going into any detail in case you find the TRUTH.

But I would assume that you think everyone that is not an adherent to your religion is blind, correct?

Also I would be interested to know who before Alexander Friedmann gave the reason of how the universe began especially 14 centuries ago or beyond.

I do not claim to know, but I question you how you can guarantee snippets or rudimentary parts of such theories did not exist prior to the stated times.

Now a question for you. You say nothing can happen that would prove to you that Islam is false. God is supposedly all-powerful, so if he choose to do so, he could call upon his divine powers and change your brain so that you had never heard of Islam. In fact, he could even turn you into an adherent of another religion, or no religion, etc.

As such, the question to you is, were you wrong in saying that nothing could happen that would prove to you that Islam is false, or is the ability to change your thinking beyond god's powers?
 
they must have possessed magical abilities or special weapons of some sort ...

Adam, me thinks you are taking the mick and have a very fertile imagination. Seems to me that you are doing exactly what you were criticizing me for when you said

.. If a book that you believed in, written a thousand years ago said "ye, words will pass through air and water", you could say that showed the book knew about the invention of the telephone...

I do not claim to know, but I question you how you can guarantee snippets or rudimentary parts of such theories did not exist prior to the stated times.

I agree, you don't know because you wish to turn blindlay away from the truth. It was a challenge I gave you and clearly you have failed miserably.

But I would assume that you think everyone that is not an adherent to your religion is blind, correct?

You would assume wrong. Everyone who deliberately turns away from the TRUTH is blind because they have chosen to be blind.

002.170 And when it is said unto them: Follow that which Allah hath revealed, they
say: We follow that wherein we found our fathers. What! Even though their fathers
were wholly unintelligent and had no guidance ?

002.171 The likeness of those who disbelieve (in relation to the messenger) is as the
likeness of one who calleth unto that which heareth naught except a shout and cry.
Deaf, dumb, blind, therefore they have no sense.


006.104 Proofs have come unto you from your Lord, so whoso seeth, it is for his own
good, and whoso is blind is blind to his own hurt. And I am not a keeper over you.


010.043 And of them is he who looketh toward thee. But canst thou guide the blind even though they see not?

010.044 Lo! Allah wrongeth not mankind in aught; but mankind wrong themselves.


God is supposedly all-powerful, so if he choose to do so, he could call upon his divine powers and change your brain so that you had never heard of Islam. In fact, he could even turn you into an adherent of another religion, or no religion, etc.

As such, the question to you is, were you wrong in saying that nothing could happen that would prove to you that Islam is false, or is the ability to change your thinking beyond god's powers?

God is All Powerful but He uses His powers as He feels fit not what His creatures see fit. God would not be God if we the created decided what He should do.

The unbelievers said similar things.

6:9 They say: "Why is not an angel sent down to him?" If we did send down an angel, the matter would be settled at once, and no respite would be granted them.
 
Adam, me thinks you are taking the mick and have a very fertile imagination. Seems to me that you are doing exactly what you were criticizing me for when you said

I'm not sure what that means. You asked me for an interpretation of ambiguous text, so I read it and tried to derive what it could possibly mean. Do I claim it is correct? No. But that reinforces my point about everyone's perception being different.

God is All Powerful but He uses His powers as He feels fit not what His creatures see fit. God would not be God if we the created decided what He should do.

So, what was your answer to the question? Are you claiming "god would never do that"? If so, how can a mortal man such as yourself possibly understand the will and mind of an all powerful, ageless, timeless being that created everything?
 

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