Are you an atheist?

[The_Doc_Man]

True that, Vassago. Our world view as scientists is that we believe what can be proved. If you can prove God's existence in a way that doesn't involve loose foundations, then you will convert us. Until then, no proof = no God.

 

[aziz rasul]

Aziz, that is an extraordinary reading of what you posted, not an ordinary reading. To me the passage says that Allah makes that determination. OK, I'm not a believer, but in that context, I would merely read that passage as saying "Allah chooses" and makes it happen as He chooses.

Surely if you are a believer in the existence of God or not, the passage is still there to say that the semen determines gender outcome, which is medically the case. Isn’t that what should be concentrated on?

The other reference to planets is again an extraordinary reading. If it is a reference to seven planets (as I read it), that is about right for the level of astronomy known at the time of the writing of the Qur'an - but the seven planets ("seven heavens and a like number of"...) are NOT earth-like. We know that. So it was at best a point of CONJECTURE that the other planets were like the Earth. But of the seven known planets, three (that were known at that time) don't even have solid cores so are not at all like the Earth. They are more like frozen layers of Hell.

I was talking about other EARTH like planets, if you read the verse carefully. Also the number 7 is metaphorical for many. You cut the verse of just at the right place where the meaning changes i.e. you quoted

…"seven heavens and a like number of"...) are NOT earth-like.

But the verse was

… seven heavens and a like number of earths.

If you want to show us an extraordinary statement, show us where the Qur'an talks about frozen planets and hot planets. THEN you would have grounds for stating that the Qur'an displays knowledge not possible to know in that time frame.

This does not answer your question, but you might find it useful to see a YouTube video entitled “o Allah Give me a sign”. Also if there were such Qur’anic verses, would you not simply well we have very hot and frozen parts of the planet that we call Earth and that that can’t be proof! There are enough Signs, so asking for more doesn’t make any sense to me. For me 21:30 was the first Qur’anic verse that I was impressed with and that was more than enough.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

the passage is still there to say that the semen determines gender outcome

Sorry but it does NOT read that way to me. You are imposing a biased overlay on top of the way you read that. I have reviewed the passage more than once because I am trying to be a responsible debater, but I still see it as saying that God (or Allah) makes the choice. I can switch viewpoints long enough to say that in that context, I could have once agreed with that statement (that God chooses). But I simply cannot read the statement the way you do.

the number 7 is metaphorical for many.

Using a specific number 7 as a metaphor for "many" speaks ill of the prophet's opinion of the math skills of the people intended to read that passage. Particularly when the word "many" existed at the time the Qur'an was written.

seven heavens and a like number of earths.

If you are going metaphorical on us then that is "many heavens and many earths" but again, why not use the word "many" for this purpose? (NOTE please that I actually do not expect an answer for this one as the Qur'an was written long enough ago that the prophet's reasons for word choices are lost in the deeps of time.)

Also if there were such Qur’anic verses, would you not simply well we have very hot and frozen parts of the planet that we call Earth and that that can’t be proof!

Maybe we would still be skeptical, but that would be harder to discredit because it would have required a deeper knowledge of astronomy than was present at the time. The point of all of this is actually the one you are trying to make... If the Qur'an actually contained some knowledge that COULD NOT POSSIBLY have been known to scholars of that time, then you would have a very good argument. The problem so far is that such extraordinary passages have not been revealed.

People of ancient Egypt knew anatomy of men and women from (if nothing else) preparing bodies for burial using Canopic Jars for the organs. The ancient Chaldeans knew of planets, stars, comets, and other astronomical phenomena. Through animal husbandry including the concept of "breeding mares" and stud animals, they would have been easily able to know about semen.

The passages you have shown us simply don't meet the "extraordinary knowledge" standard. To me, the problem is one of confirmation bias that is causing you to read special meaning into ordinary words. PLEASE believe as you wish, but also understand that when you offer proofs, they are subject to our review and interpretation. I speak only for myself for this: You have EVERY RIGHT to believe as you wish, and must not take it as a personal insult if we don't see things in the same way you do. But you must understand that in the absence of functional telepathy, we CANNOT see things through your eyes, and therein lies the basis of this discussion.

 

[aziz rasul]

Using a specific number 7 as a metaphor for "many" speaks ill of the prophet's opinion of the math skills of the people intended to read that passage. Particularly when the word "many" existed at the time the Qur'an was written.

But the Prophet (peace be upon him) didn’t write the Qur’an! How would he know this?
The fact that God says that there are other Earth like planets is what I was trying to emphasize. These have only been discovered over the past 2 decades or so.

The ancient Chaldeans knew of planets, stars, comets, and other astronomical phenomena. Through animal husbandry including the concept of "breeding mares" and stud animals, they would have been easily able to know about semen.

Did they know that other Earth like planets existed, if so can you provide some evidence? Of course people would know about semen, but that isn’t the point I am making. It is the fact that the male semen determines the gender is what I am concentrating on. The fact that God is telling us this is great.

I speak only for myself for this: You have EVERY RIGHT to believe as you wish, and must not take it as a personal insult if we don't see things in the same way you do. But you must understand that in the absence of functional telepathy, we CANNOT see things through your eyes, and therein lies the basis of this discussion.

Of course I don’t take it as a personal insult. We are free agents to think as we like. This is why I quoted Qur’an 109:6 in an earlier post.

When the thought police come along, then people like me are going to have a hard time. As far as I am concerned, I see God in the passages that I have chosen and I also believe in a Day of Judgement. I accept that you don’t. When that day comes, you will have to answer to Him as we all are.

41:52 Say, "Have you considered: if the Qur'an is from Allaah and you disbelieved in it, who would be more astray than one who is in extreme dissension?"
41:53 We will show them Our signs in the horizons and within themselves until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth. But is it not sufficient concerning your Lord that He is, over all things, a Witness?
41:54 Unquestionably, they are in doubt about the meeting with their Lord. Unquestionably He is, of all things, encompassing.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

The fact that God says that there are other Earth like planets is what I was trying to emphasize.

Or the folks looking at the "wanderers" thought that there were.

Did they know that other Earth like planets existed, if so can you provide some evidence?

Was it Aristarchus of Samos who is credited with the first heliocentric model? If so, that conjecture was available in at least 300 BCE. He proposed the model that we know today to be more accurate than anything the rest of the western world used until the time of Galileo, Tycho Brahe, and Nicolas Copernicus.

The fact that God is telling us this is great.

Yet that is not how I read the same passage. It says that semen triggers pregnancy but still doesn't say whether the mother or the father does the determination. To me the reading is clear that God/Allah makes the choice.

 

[aziz rasul]

Was it Aristarchus of Samos who is credited with the first heliocentric model?

But did he say that there were other Earth like planets during his lifetime?

Yet that is not how I read the same passage. It says that semen triggers pregnancy but still doesn't say whether the mother or the father does the determination. To me the reading is clear that God/Allah makes the choice.

To me the verses make it clear that a sperm-drop determines the male or female. Of course Allaah ultimately determines the outcome but the point is that the outcome comes from the sperm-drop.

53:45 And that He creates the two mates - the male and female –
53:46 From a sperm-drop when it is emitted

Also interesting to note that the Arabic word for man (ra-jul) and woman (im-ra-ah) both appear 23 times in the Qur'an. Both men and women have 23 pairs of chromosomes. Happy to give the Qur'anic references if you are interested.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

At some point, those coincidences add up to something that CANNOT have been divinely inspired because it would provide proof and obviate the need for faith. The moment you don't need faith, you don't need God.

This is EXACTLY why you should be careful trying to post information that "proves" your point. Most of the passages CANNOT have the meaning you are attempting to assign according to the Christian dogma on this subject. Any god you can prove cannot be the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Joseph because the Abrahamic God is the god only accessible through one's faith. ALL provable gods are creations of Satan, meant to divert people from worship of the "One True God."

The tactics of the imposters would be to provide claims of veracity and elements of proof, so OF COURSE the Qur'an claims what it claims and says what it says.

I don't actually believe in ANY gods so I do not accuse you of pushing a Satanic creation on the world. But be aware that there are those who would use your proofs against you in the way I have described. In fact, in some of the Bible-thumping Fundamentalist pulpits around the USA, they already HAVE used a similar argument against Islam. To me it is all a case of "the pot calling the kettle black."

Your quoted passage says that men and women result when human sperm meets human egg. That is ALL that it says, and anyone conversant in animal husbandry would have told you that in the pre-Christian era. The brood mares and cows and nanny-goats don't get preggers until a male of that species joins the "conversation" and starts the balls rolling.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

After fighting with wifey's new computer ('cause the old one died), and I DO mean fighting, I realized there IS a God. The problem is

(a) attributes: the son of a bitch has a foul sense of humor
(b) actions: He dabbles as a programmer for Microsoft
(c) afterlife: there is no Heaven, but there IS a Hell, and your job in it will be to work for eternity with unpatched older versions of Microsoft software.
(d) the power of prayer: When you call in with a complaint, God is the snippy little bugger who says, "Well, since the web portion is working, we have reason to believe that the problem is on your end and we don't support your mess." Then he hangs up on you.

Or maybe I'm just feeling a little more cynical than normal at the moment, 1:15 AM after a day exceeding 18 hours spent wrangling with a software problem.

 

[Frothingslosh]

Actually, I can confirm that working tech support for more than six months ends in the removal of your soul and replacement with a demon summoned from the nethermost regions of hell.

After that, your only goals are to get people off the phones as quickly as possible, and to make their suffering match yours before they go.

That sounds like a day I had maybe ten years ago where I spent 16 hours cleaning my roommate's computer after he downloaded a no-cd crack for some game and it came packaged with a particularly nasty malware that, among other things, saved four separate backups of itself with random file names as well as downloading a new malware every couple minutes. (I wound up having to go into safe mode and do a TON of deletes and manual registry edits, along with using multiple scanners and cleaners to get rid of the combination downloader/page hijacker and the incredible amount of crap it downloaded.)

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Thanks, Frothy - confirmation of my conjecture is a good thing!

 

[constableparks]

Curious - since this thread has been going on for so long, has anyone changed their position on the topic since it was first introduced in 2008 (or since the time when you first read it)? If so, did this thread have anything to do with your decision?

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Fair question, constableparks. In my case, no change (other than increasingly convinced I am right, but that's a fine point, not a broad change.)

 

[raghuprabhu]

Hi Everyone,

I have been an atheist since I was 14, in 1974. No change.

I am a Hindu by birth, the philosophy is live and let live.

Due to my religious upbringing, I used to think I may be wrong. Richard Dawkins books has finally driven through and the logic has made me a firm atheist.

 

[Mark_]

Has Russell been in here? I hear he's looking for his missing teapot.

 

[Galaxiom]

Curious - since this thread has been going on for so long, has anyone changed their position on the topic since it was first introduced in 2008 (or since the time when you first read it)? If so, did this thread have anything to do with your decision?

I have gained a greater realisation of how much the principles of Abrahamic Monotheism underlay the problems of the world.

Some of this can certainly be attributed to what has been posted here, especially by Aziz Rasul who demonstrates so clearly what religion can do to the mind.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

G - agree that religion can be insidious. Aziz and I went around the mulberry bush many times over his quotes from the Qur'an and I could not make him realize that his reading of the raw words had been culturally biased.

It is not strange that many Muslims are refugees from a land torn by the continual conflict of deeply ingrained religion. What is also not strange is that they want to preserve their "old" way of life. And what is sad (as well as straight on to your point) is that in trying to maintain an old way of life, they bring their conflicts with them. Yet they cannot see that it was their intolerant and intransigent religion that led to the situation in the first place.

 

[Mike375]

I have not changed to any real degree.

I still have several possible scenarios and I vary a bit at different times as to how strongly I place one.

I still give zero to any of the formal religions.

 

[Mike375]

Some weeks ago I was talking to a medical specialist who is a "born again" .....as an aside 99% of medical specialists are in the "there is definitely something out there territory" as opposed to being born again Christians.

Anyway this "born again" specialist gave me a simple insight into how people with such an extreme level of education can deal with the Bible's impossible stuff like Noah's Ark, Joshua stopping the sun in the sky without everyone flying off earth at a 1000 mph etc.

It is really simple. Their starting point or premise is God exists and of course God can change the laws of nature, suspend the laws or do whatever He wants including making a talking snake. Thus for that medical specialist Noah's Ark etc. does not represent even the slightest issue.

What puzzles me and always has is making the jump from a belief to faith. Faith being where you act on or take a 100% position without proof.

To me the atheist and born again are the same. There is no proof via science how this whole show started. Of course if The Big Bang could be proven then we obviously hit the snag of pre big bang.

I certainly envy both the atheist and born again Christian as opposed to people like myself with constantly changing positions.

 

[raghuprabhu]

I am a Hindu by birth, an atheist from 14 years of age. I found that Hinduism is not a religion but a way of life. It has a place for atheist, doubtful believers and full believers.

 

[ColinEssex]

Actually, religions are very good organisations. They brainwash people into believing that every other religion is the enemy, therefore history has recorded that religion is the basis for many wars.
Wars are good, as they are excellent vehicles for culling populations by the million, millions of fighting troops are killed and as a result the world population doesn't grow as quickly as it might.

Col