Freedom of Speech - Protests in Ontario Canada (1 Viewer)

Uncle Gizmo

Nifty Access Guy
Staff member
Local time
Today, 21:31
Joined
Jul 9, 2003
Messages
16,282
The woke culture taking another smack in the face from the sensible public. People appalled at the treatment of Jordan Peterson and two female doctors who were cancelled, lost their licence to practise because they refused to give the covid injection..

 

Pat Hartman

Super Moderator
Staff member
Local time
Today, 16:31
Joined
Feb 19, 2002
Messages
43,297
Canada has gotten really repressive. I'm glad people are finally standing up.
 

Steve R.

Retired
Local time
Today, 16:31
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,687
I previously posted this under Uncles Favorite Podcasts. Since the topic came-up again concerning Jordan Peterson getting persecuted, I'm providing a link back to that post. I'm aghast at how Canada, under Trudeau, is stiffing free speech and that Trudeau has not been voted out of office. It seems that many English based countries and even the European EU are becoming increasingly repressive. For some (illogical) reason I am reminded of "Clock Work Orange". There are probably better comparisons.
 
Last edited:

Isaac

Lifelong Learner
Local time
Today, 13:31
Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
8,779
It does indeed feel strange. When I was a child I always for some reason imagined that Canada this beautiful, raw place with rough wilderness and fiercely independent-minded people, maybe something like Alaska or Montana (in my imagination). Not that they were mean or cruel people, just that they were independent and free and wanted to remain so. (Just the idea I had).

Could be it was never really like that.

I recall chatting with Micron (a LONG time ago now, it feels), before he tired of AWF and left. We were chatting about LGBT acceptance (etc. etc.), and he mentioned something like "It could be you don't hear that much in Canada because hate speech is a crime".

I remember at that point thinking all the opinions I have about "hate"-crimes, and how bad (IMO) they are, giving special privilege to certain victim groups for suffering actions that were already crimes in the first place and should have remained regular crimes so that all victims have equality. At that time we sort of parted ways. I respect his opinion though, mostly because I know him to be a real stand-up guy - a good person for sure.

Oh well. Who knows what Canada or the US will be in 20 years!
 

Steve R.

Retired
Local time
Today, 16:31
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,687
It does indeed feel strange. When I was a child I always for some reason imagined that Canada this beautiful, raw place with rough wilderness and fiercely independent-minded people, maybe something like Alaska or Montana (in my imagination). Not that they were mean or cruel people, just that they were independent and free and wanted to remain so. (Just the idea I had).

Could be it was never really like that.
Same here. We all live in a bubble, maybe our vision of the world is distorted by the "curvature" of the bubble? I have also imagined Alaska, Canada, New England, Wisconsin, and Minnesota as being fiercely independent. So I've been perplexed for many years as to why they seem to acquiesce to the Democratic party line. North Carolina, is an example, of what one would expect (on the surface) to be a conservative state as it is highly rural, but then (on deeper examination) when you look at the urban areas of Raleigh, Charlotte, Greensboro, and Winston-Salem which have large populations; you see they are highly Democratic. I guess the raw places with rough wilderness and fiercely independent-minded people simply get overwhelmed (out voted) by the dependent city folk demanding big government.
 

AccessBlaster

Registered User.
Local time
Today, 13:31
Joined
May 22, 2010
Messages
5,957
I guess the raw places with rough wilderness and fiercely independent-minded people simply get overwhelmed (out voted) by the dependent city folk demanding big government.
"We had no idea how good we had it and no clue that we were the last ones".
 

shadow9449

Registered User.
Local time
Today, 16:31
Joined
Mar 5, 2004
Messages
1,037
It does indeed feel strange. When I was a child I always for some reason imagined that Canada this beautiful, raw place with rough wilderness and fiercely independent-minded people, maybe something like Alaska or Montana (in my imagination). Not that they were mean or cruel people, just that they were independent and free and wanted to remain so. (Just the idea I had).

Could be it was never really like that.

I recall chatting with Micron (a LONG time ago now, it feels), before he tired of AWF and left. We were chatting about LGBT acceptance (etc. etc.), and he mentioned something like "It could be you don't hear that much in Canada because hate speech is a crime".

I remember at that point thinking all the opinions I have about "hate"-crimes, and how bad (IMO) they are, giving special privilege to certain victim groups for suffering actions that were already crimes in the first place and should have remained regular crimes so that all victims have equality. At that time we sort of parted ways. I respect his opinion though, mostly because I know him to be a real stand-up guy - a good person for sure.

Oh well. Who knows what Canada or the US will be in 20 years!

To to clarify the obvious:

- I do realize that you introduced your post by saying that your thinking was when you were a child, but I think it goes without saying that when you try to typify a group of 38 million people you're bound to encounter a few counter examples that contradict however it is that you've tried to classify them.
- In the same vein, it's hard to typify the second-largest country in the world by landmass in just a few words. Of course there is a lot of natural beauty across the country and there are many heavily urbanized areas. Toronto, where I live, is the fourth largest city in North America, for example.
- As far as "hate-speech being a crime in Canada", I am not clear what law you refer to that gives special privilege to certain victim groups? While it's true that hate speech in Canada is broader than in the US, the law
...makes it an offence to communicate statements in a public place which incite hatred against an identifiable group, where it is likely to lead to a breach of the peace.

Is that something that you oppose?

I think that the situation today in Canada and the US are actually very similar, with a lot of the "woke-ism" actually COMING from the US rather than the other way around.
 

Isaac

Lifelong Learner
Local time
Today, 13:31
Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
8,779
I do realize that you introduced your post by saying that your thinking was when you were a child, but I think it goes without saying that when you try to typify a group of 38 million people you're bound to encounter a few counter examples that contradict however it is that you've tried to classify them
Yes, of course. That's an accepted aspect of making a generalization. You believe it to be generally true, but you assume there will be some exceptions. However, when a population votes, we assume the majority won, which means even my generalization might be wrong, which was my point. A few exceptions to the rule don't win elections.

Is that something that you oppose?
Not directly, not the way you stated it, which includes the aspect "which is likely to lead to a breach of the peace".

What I strongly oppose are USA hate-crimes.

A hate crime goes like this:

  1. It's already against the law to walk up to someone you don't like and punch them in the nose. Let's say the penalty might be a $1000 fine and 3 months in jail. Let's call this the crime of "assault".
  2. In recent years, it changed so if you punch them in the nose "because" they're [name of victim group], the penalty is now a $5000 fine and 3 years in prison.
The problem is that the person who got punched in the nose does not actually deserve any "additional" meting out of justice/punishment to the puncher compared to anyone else who got punched in the nose. His suffering under the law should be, he got punched in the nose.

This may seem overwhelmingly obvious, but I understand why the hate-crime concept got its appeal: Because years ago, minorities were being punched in the nose and nobody was prosecuting it. Instead of fixing the obvious problem of failure to prosecute and enforce the law, it was rather solved by lawmakers saying "If you punch a minority, we promise promise promise we're really really really going to prosecute it and look at this, we'll even double the punishment!" which was the wrong and unnecessary response.

It puts minority punch-ees in a privileged position over and above anyone else, which is completely unequal and unfair.

Beyond that, I actually think punishing someone for the reason they did something, or for the thoughts that may have been in their mind, is not a place I'd like to go in society. I don't want to live in a place where your thoughts are punished, I think we should draw the line at physicality for the most part. But this aspect of the conversation isn't even needed to make my point - the main thing is what I said previously.

Beyond that, many people feel that only specific groups are benefitting from hate crime enforcement. The reasoning (beyond the actual anecdotal evidence I have seen many times), is quite straightforward: The idea came from liberal, social-justice types in the first place. The enforcement decisions come from the same philosophical place.
Thus, even though a hate crime is supposed to work equally well when a black guy punches a white guy out of dislike and frustration with the White race, everybody pretty much knows that almost never actually does work that way. This adds even more to the 'unequal' aspect.

Beyond that, now I'll add even one more thing: The limited categories of hate crimes are inherently unfair. Let's take an example. There are occasions when people who look affluent are targeted out of frustration to that; there are times when attractive women get targeted out of men's frustration to that, there are times when CEO's and executives get targeted out of people's frustration with them. Are they less deserving of justice than someone who is Polish? Of course not! And yet, we would have to create a hate crime category that covers every imaginable 'reason' in the world, in order to make this situation right. Of course, we can't do that. So we lumber along, year after year, slowly creating 1 new category every 5 years out of the 1000 needed. It's ridiculous.

In my opinion there are quite a few laws like this in recent years that follow essentially the same pattern.
Wrongs were being done to people and prosecution was lacking.
Instead of solving the root problem - failure to enforce the law - New additional laws were made to make the 1 crime 3 crimes.
The only effect this had was of punishing the few people who got prosecuted at 3x the harshness. It did nothing to change the overall lack of prosecution for the basic, and only, crime that was ACTUALLY committed.
 

Uncle Gizmo

Nifty Access Guy
Staff member
Local time
Today, 21:31
Joined
Jul 9, 2003
Messages
16,282
The problem is that the person who got punched in the nose does not actually deserve any "additional" meting out of justice/punishment to the puncher compared to anyone else who got punched in the nose. His suffering under the law should be, he got punched in the nose.

That's a brilliant way of thinking about it, and very well explained. thank you!
 
Last edited:

shadow9449

Registered User.
Local time
Today, 16:31
Joined
Mar 5, 2004
Messages
1,037
Yes, of course. That's an accepted aspect of making a generalization. You believe it to be generally true, but you assume there will be some exceptions. However, when a population votes, we assume the majority won, which means even my generalization might be wrong, which was my point. A few exceptions to the rule don't win elections.


Not directly, not the way you stated it, which includes the aspect "which is likely to lead to a breach of the peace".

What I strongly oppose are USA hate-crimes.

A hate crime goes like this:

  1. It's already against the law to walk up to someone you don't like and punch them in the nose. Let's say the penalty might be a $1000 fine and 3 months in jail. Let's call this the crime of "assault".
  2. In recent years, it changed so if you punch them in the nose "because" they're [name of victim group], the penalty is now a $5000 fine and 3 years in prison.
The problem is that the person who got punched in the nose does not actually deserve any "additional" meting out of justice/punishment to the puncher compared to anyone else who got punched in the nose. His suffering under the law should be, he got punched in the nose.

This may seem overwhelmingly obvious, but I understand why the hate-crime concept got its appeal: Because years ago, minorities were being punched in the nose and nobody was prosecuting it. Instead of fixing the obvious problem of failure to prosecute and enforce the law, it was rather solved by lawmakers saying "If you punch a minority, we promise promise promise we're really really really going to prosecute it and look at this, we'll even double the punishment!" which was the wrong and unnecessary response.

It puts minority punch-ees in a privileged position over and above anyone else, which is completely unequal and unfair.

Beyond that, I actually think punishing someone for the reason they did something, or for the thoughts that may have been in their mind, is not a place I'd like to go in society. I don't want to live in a place where your thoughts are punished, I think we should draw the line at physicality for the most part. But this aspect of the conversation isn't even needed to make my point - the main thing is what I said previously.

Beyond that, many people feel that only specific groups are benefitting from hate crime enforcement. The reasoning (beyond the actual anecdotal evidence I have seen many times), is quite straightforward: The idea came from liberal, social-justice types in the first place. The enforcement decisions come from the same philosophical place.
Thus, even though a hate crime is supposed to work equally well when a black guy punches a white guy out of dislike and frustration with the White race, everybody pretty much knows that almost never actually does work that way. This adds even more to the 'unequal' aspect.

Beyond that, now I'll add even one more thing: The limited categories of hate crimes are inherently unfair. Let's take an example. There are occasions when people who look affluent are targeted out of frustration to that; there are times when attractive women get targeted out of men's frustration to that, there are times when CEO's and executives get targeted out of people's frustration with them. Are they less deserving of justice than someone who is Polish? Of course not! And yet, we would have to create a hate crime category that covers every imaginable 'reason' in the world, in order to make this situation right. Of course, we can't do that. So we lumber along, year after year, slowly creating 1 new category every 5 years out of the 1000 needed. It's ridiculous.

In my opinion there are quite a few laws like this in recent years that follow essentially the same pattern.
Wrongs were being done to people and prosecution was lacking.
Instead of solving the root problem - failure to enforce the law - New additional laws were made to make the 1 crime 3 crimesbl
The only effect this had was of punishing the few people who got prosecuted at 3x the harshness. It did nothing to change the overall lack of prosecution for the basic, and only, crime that was ACTUALLY committed.

Great post, and you raise a lot of excellent points! I completely agree that something has gone really wrong with society where in the name of protecting vulnerable minority groups who have historically faced discrimination, the law somehow neglects when members of those same groups commit crimes that are clearly because of bias. I don't necessarily oppose legislation opposing hate crimes so long as it works for ALL hate crimes and ALL members of society are similarly protected.

And you are also correct that it's up to the judge to demonstrate that a crime was done with a certain intention. Intention is usually hard to prove in court but there are times where it's pretty black and white. For instance, in the US there was the Pittsburgh Tree of Life Synagogue shooting in 2018 that killed 11 and wounded six, or shootings in gay clubs in recent years that have led to mass deaths based on the perpetrator's ideology. Would you agree or disagree in this kind of situation that the perpetrator should receive harsher punishment rather than someone who randomly shot up a group of strangers in a shopping mall?
 

Isaac

Lifelong Learner
Local time
Today, 13:31
Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
8,779
there are times where it's pretty black and white. For instance, in the US there was the Pittsburgh Tree of Life Synagogue shooting in 2018 that killed 11 and wounded six, or shootings in gay clubs in recent years that have led to mass deaths based on the perpetrator's ideology. Would you agree or disagree in this kind of situation that the perpetrator should receive harsher punishment rather than someone who randomly shot up a group of strangers in a shopping mall?

This is a tough one. Not because I'm uncertain of my position on it but just because I want to go the extra effort to ensure my response is not misconstrued as a lack of sympathy and compassion for people who were targeted, including in the incidents you mentioned. Harming or persecuting anyone is just flat-out wrong and a really bad thing.

But honestly, no, I don't think the perpetrator should receive harsher punishment. If we do that it just immediately leads me to think of the fairness aspect. I think of the suffering that is entailed when you're trying to get a gallon of milk and you see your child ripped in half by a bullet. It's unthinkable, really, but I just can't bring myself to "Determine" authoritatively that that situation is "not as bad" as the exact same bullet ripping the exact same flesh causing the exact same ripple effects as the gentlemen in the gay bar.

Part me me wonders if this all comes down to our desire to eliminate the motives people have for killing. I think what we really want to do is eliminate that. It bothers us to think that someone had an ideology that was so black-and-white, so clear, so well defined, that may have clearly led them to kill. We assume we should do something about it (and maybe that's right). We choose the situation of the gay bar killing, because that seems relatively easy to define - "You hated gays, so you killed gays - now you'll get an extra punishment" - hoping people will stop hating gays and thus killing them. It's a reasonable desire and intention, for sure. But the TRUTH of the matter if we accept it is that the guy who randomly shot people with no clear and easily understood motive actually DID have a clear motive of some kind. It's just harder for us to determine, agree on, understand, investigate. He may have suffered a lot of mental disorders based on a bad childhood. If only we could pinpoint that with God-like certainty, we might say "Ok. From now on, if you have a mental disorder and refuse treatment and then kill people, we will punish that extra hard because we could identify the lead-up to the crime and the lead-up was wrong". (that may not even be a very good example but hopefully the gist is coming across).

But one of the biggest overarching factors IMO is the simple inability to make this fair for everyone. And it's ironic, isn't it? that in SOME cases, we actually REDUCE punishments precisely BECAUSE we know the motive, like heat-of-the-moment crimes.

I just think policing someone's thought is a massive pitfall, an area only God can know and judge.

Let's take heat-of-the-moment crimes. "We're going to punish you less for shooting your wife, because you caught her in bed with another man". What does that mean? It means "your motivation was kinda understandable, we get it, we can relate, anyone might feel the same way".

But couldn't that be applied to racial crimes too? I'll use my race as the scapegoat to keep me honest. Let's say a black person is constantly looked down upon, treated like garbage, suspected everywhere they go, called a "gangster" because of their big hair do, their kids can't make friends, people called them names, they've suffered tremendously (this hypothetical person). They walk down to the store and shoot a white person - just because they're white. Couldn't we say the same thing? "your motivation was kinda understandable, we can see how a normal person might actually get to that level of craziness, after all that emotional abuse, what you did was wrong and mis-targeted, but we can kind of understand". I think we could ...

Murder should just be murder. And that's why I ALSO think charging of crimes should be done fairly.
If we all agree that grabbing a woman off a jogging trail and r** her is very, very different than 2 teenagers having sex where she changes her mind 1.5 seconds before the finish line (and yes, there was a case like that!), then the charges should reflect that difference. The whole MeToo's "ra** is ra**" philosophy just DOESN'T resonate with many people. Sure it is, and wrong is wrong, but the charging and the punishment MUST reflect the relative differences between crimes.

We should have no trouble putting away a person who killed people in a gay bar for life. If we need hate crime sentencing to get us where we want to be, then the problem is with sentencing, and charging. If we feel "murder is not good enough", then that's not because murder is not a good enough charge, maybe it's because we previously charged 16 year olds playing Russian Roulette with "Murder", thus diminishing the seriousness and meaning of the word. If we feel ra** is not a good enough charge for some cases, it's probably because we charged too many 19 year old with ra** for having consensual sex with a 16 year old. And so on and so forth.

Fairness must rule in a common sense way
 

Steve R.

Retired
Local time
Today, 16:31
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,687
When I was a child ...
In reviewing the comments here, it occurred to me that the US, today, is a different country. I don't know how old you are, but I was around in the 1960s and I will "randomly" select 1960 as a base year. The sixties were before big government, the US leadership emerged out of the "Greatest Generation", Judeo-Christian values were celebrated, and the US population was approximately 180 million. Today, the US population is estimated at 332 million.

We used to live in the Washington DC area. Back in the 1960s, before big government took hold, you could easily find parking in the Mall and DC was close to being a small sleepy town. Today the Mall, is extremely congested as are the suburbs DC. Back in the 60s, you could buy firecrackers in the local drug stores. Oh!, the danger. How many people today would stand for that? In the 60s the military supply stores sold guns. Back in the 60s, the National Parks were not crowded like they are today.

Today, we live in a totally different world.
 

AccessBlaster

Registered User.
Local time
Today, 13:31
Joined
May 22, 2010
Messages
5,957
In reviewing the comments here, it occurred to me that the US, today, is a different country. I don't know how old you are, but I was around in the 1960s and I will "randomly" select 1960 as a base year. The sixties were before big government, the US leadership emerged out of the "Greatest Generation", Judeo-Christian values were celebrated, and the US population was approximately 180 million. Today, the US population is estimated at 332 million.

We used to live in the Washington DC area. Back in the 1960s, before big government took hold, you could easily find parking in the Mall and DC was close to being a small sleepy town. Today the Mall, is extremely congested as are the suburbs DC. Back in the 60s, you could buy firecrackers in the local drug stores. Oh!, the danger. How many people today would stand for that? In the 60s the military supply stores sold guns. Back in the 60s, the National Parks were not crowded like they are today.

Today, we live in a totally different world.

The biggest change is the speed in which we receive information. Personally I think the shenanigans were always right there just below the surface. But because of lack of cameras and the internet the information was slow to come out making it harder to put the pieces together.
 

Pat Hartman

Super Moderator
Staff member
Local time
Today, 16:31
Joined
Feb 19, 2002
Messages
43,297
I guess the raw places with rough wilderness and fiercely independent-minded people simply get overwhelmed (out voted) by the dependent city folk demanding big government.
Australia and New Zealand are even worse.
Is that something that you oppose?
Absolutely!

"...makes it an offence to communicate statements in a public place which incite hatred against an identifiable group, where it is likely to lead to a breach of the peace."

Sounds nice on paper and is impossible for a person who thinks he is moral to object to, although I did. Why? Who decides "where it is likely to lead to a breach of the peace"? Therein lies the slippery slope of wokism. Are there hard examples? Is not referring to a person as their preferred pronoun so offensive it will lead to a breach of the peace? The problem is it allows pretty much anything the woke care about to be existentially offensive and therefore worthy of persecution which is what is happening to Peterson and the doctors whose licenses were revoked.

The US bill of rights recognizes that slippery slope and so doesn't go there (we won't talk about the members of the Supreme Court who think they can make law and not just interpret it). You can be a Nazi and march down the street singing and give fiery speeches or waving signs against abortion or for abortion or for gay rights or against gay rights or whatever, but unless the speaker is actively trying to get you to rise up and commit an actual crime, he is free to say whatever he wants. You are also free to walk away and not listen. Once you start qualifying "free speech" so that someone has the authority to decide what is offensive, your right to "free speech" has disappeared.

Just look at the way the social media platforms currently work. You can be black and vocally anti-white. You can be a Muslim and post "Death to America" all over your website and write Fatwas that condem actual people to death and you don't get banned. However, if you are Jordan Peterson, who near as I can tell, doesn't wish ill of anyone, you are an existential threat to the woke crowd and so you get banned or throttled.

Instead of fixing the obvious problem of failure to prosecute and enforce the law,
Excellent observation on what is wrong with our criminal justice system and I agree 100%. We have WAY TOO MANY laws on the books. If we are not going to prosecute crimes, then we need to revise the criminal code and get rid of the excess baggage. We could probably get the criminal code down to less than 50 pages. The 10 commandments are great start. There's probably a few things that come up because of how we use computers that require adjustments and with concepts derived from citizenship. But, you're so right about hate crimes. A crime is a crime and motivation is irrelevant and just complicates the prosecution needlessly. Not prosecuting a hate crime committed by a black against an Asian is criminal and the prosecutor should be prosecuted:)

I once sat on a jury for a criminal case. By noon of the first day (it lasted three days and was a total waste of my time and taxpayer money), I was ready to convict the victim and the prosecutor for even bringing the case. The judge kept sending the jury out of the room and as we learned later, he kept trying to get the "victim" to withdraw his charges but the "victim" would not recant and so we continued. In the end, we had to return a verdict of not guilty. The accused was a criminal and guilty of lots of bad stuff I'm sure but he wasn't guilty of the crime they charged him with. It all started with the description of the crime as the accused taking the victim's money and running away as the cops came and then jumping over several chain link fences that separated yards in the neighborhood while he was on crutches with one leg in a cast above the knee. It all boiled down to a drug deal gone bad.
 

Pat Hartman

Super Moderator
Staff member
Local time
Today, 16:31
Joined
Feb 19, 2002
Messages
43,297
Back in the 60s, the National Parks were not crowded like they are today.
You actually need reservations for many of them today. Back in the 70's when my husband and I were travelling the country, we could get in the car and go anywhere and find a place to stay outside the parks and just go in. If you wanted to stay in the park, you needed reservations but they were easy enough to get on fairly short notice. And flying was actually a pleasure. These days, if I can't drive, I probably won't go or if I have to go, it has to be non-stop. Too many of the flights I've taken in the past 10 years have had some problem coming or going with delay/cancellation/lost luggage.
 

Isaac

Lifelong Learner
Local time
Today, 13:31
Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
8,779
Flights are a big problem nowadays!

Here's a funny one that will hopefully put a smile on your face:

Biden, on the mass flight grounding the other day:
"Air traffic can still land safely, just not take off right now". Well gee....THAT'S a relief! It would be particularly worrisome if no flights could land!
 

Pat Hartman

Super Moderator
Staff member
Local time
Today, 16:31
Joined
Feb 19, 2002
Messages
43,297
It's just the useful idiot speaking the obvious --- Joe, you've got to say something positive or the mob will be angry, how about this:)
 

Uncle Gizmo

Nifty Access Guy
Staff member
Local time
Today, 21:31
Joined
Jul 9, 2003
Messages
16,282
David Menzies was arrested in Canada for trying to ask a Canadian minister a question. You can see in the video that the security "bouncer" deliberately bounced off David, creating a fictitious crime.

This is what Tucker Carlson had to say about it:-

 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top Bottom