Freelancing (& freeloaders!)

daviedaft

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OK, just a forewarning - this is half question, half rant :D

Freelancing sites - anyone know any good ones?

I've had a look at a few. They are rubbish, for a number of reasons.

Lots seem to charge a registration fee - now to my mind if the site is even half decent and you might get some work for it, you'll pay them on some kind of commission basis. Anyone that needs to charge a registration fee obviously isn't making enough money through the actual work available on the site, which isn't a good sign.

One of my biggest bugbears though is the "budgets" for these projects.

It's like "hey, I want an ASP.Net site with a SQL Server backend, full security, 10 different webforms, xy & z functionality, my budget is $100"

WHAT???

The same goes for the Access stuff. Basically I thought I'd try to make a bit of cash in my spare time doing what I'm good at. But A) the sites are full of these clowns wanting the moon on a stick for basically nothing, and B) the sites are also full of "programmers", who I think would also be better described as clowns, who are willing to do the jobs for that sort of fee.

$100 for a fully functional Access database? Hell, even for a simple database with say 5 tables, 3 forms and a couple of reports, I think you're talking a couple of days work minimum if it's fully tested, documented etc. I'm a firm believer in getting what you pay for and I think - in fact I hope - that a lot of people are paying crap money for a very crap product. I think you're selling yourself short if you do this for any less than £25 an hour (minimum!), let alone for $100 for something that would take over 20 hours if done right.

These people are basically devaluing our (and by "our", I mean experienced, professional developers") work. As you can probably tell, they really, really get on my t*ts :mad: :D

So, with this in mind, does anyone know any DECENT sites?

Do they even exist? Or should I just set up my own consultancy and look to take on smaller jobs outside of my own working hours?
 
I think you're best off just making your own website, and promoting your services that way. This makes it easier to set the price range, show examples of your work, and the quality of it.

I'm not too sure about freelance sites, but where I work we sometimes get consultants to do databases that I don't have time to complete, and when they come back they are a complete horror. They use no naming schemes, the forms are not user friendly, it's not normalized properly (but appears to work correctly cause of code manipulation, until you try to get the reports out that you should be able to generate). And I'm talking consultants that are charging 10,000 or so for this "product".

So there should definitely be a market out there for you on the side, I think people will be willing to pay a decent amount for an excellent product. I think making your own website and avoiding the freelance sites will avoid both the buying clowns, and the programming clowns.
 
Thanks DevastatioN, your post makes a lot of sense :)

Doing my own site is something that I've been meaning to do for a while, think I'll get my finger out!
 
My permanent job has ended and I'd like to do MS Access projects or developing reports from client data on a freelance basis. I therefore wondered if anyone could bring the advice in this post from 2009 up-to-date - what is the best ways to look for freelance work in the UK?
 
I looked on Elance.com and FreeLancer.com and found that many people/businesses are looking for cheap labor from countries like India and Pakistan.

I saw a project posted by someone from New York looking for an experienced full time developer for $4.50 an hour. And he got responses galore from the countries I mentioned.

Obviously that is not the way to go.

Try Guru.com. I heard it is the best.

Good luck with your efforts.



Catalina
 
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Just saw a project posted on one of the freelance sites.
To my best estimate it would be about 10 hours of work.

One freelancer is willing to do it for $20.
He can have the job, I won't work for $2 an hour.
 
I occasionally find work on Guru. Guru charges a subscription because there is no guarantee that you and the employer will actually use the Guru service for payment even though it is in your best interest to do so. I think they charge way too much of a premium for acting as the middle man when you consider the price of a subscription. I have gotten two very lucrative clients from them though. One was a 6-month on-site assignment and the other resulted in a relationship that has been ongoing for 5 years. Use the Guru escrow service until you get to know the client. Then you can decide whether you are willing to take the risk of billing directly.

Elance and the others are simply a race to the bottom and there is no way anyone from the US or the UK could afford to work for those rates so they are a complete waste of time. Notice that they don't charge a fee. How could someone working for $2 per hour afford to pay a couple hundred dollars per year?

Even when the project estimate on Guru is completely unrealistic, I will post an offer if the job sounds interesting. I usually start by explaining that you can buy Quickbooks off the shelf for around $200 but it cost millions (or at least hundreds of thousands) of dollars to develop originally and update annually. Then I go on to explain ROI and why companies would consider paying thousands of dollars for a custom solution.

I have actually created a couple of Access apps for around $500 but only if I was positive that I had something similiar I could build on so I didn't have to start from scratch.
 
Pat, I couldn't agree more about Elance.

Just recently someone needed an application developed for a max budget of $500.
There were about 20 bids, with an average of around $400.

It was something I could handle, so I offered to do it for $375.

The job was awarded to a guy in the UK who wants to do it for $50.
A whole application for $50? Get real.
 
If you decide to use Elance to find work (assuming you can afford to work for those rates), do not under any conditions build an app as a "demo". That is a ploy used by unscrupulous people looking to get something for free. Value your work enough to get paid for it. If you are willing to work for free to build up your portfolio, find a worthy charity or church and do something for them. Guru protects you from the "demo" seekers by making rules against advertising for them. If a member finds such a listing and reports it, the lister usually gets banned. Same for illegal activities. Guru does offer some listings you can see with a free subscription but you'll need to fork over around $400 per year to get full access.
 
One more remark about this, and then I'll quit.

Especially on Freelancer.com I see projects that are likely homework assignments.
For some reason (I can think of a few) the student doesn't want to do it him/herself
and tries to find someone who will take care of it for a few bucks.

Just saw someone wanting a complete vehicle maintenance application with a budget of $50.

Catalina
 
I too took a look at elance. Not for access, I'm am but an egg in Access. I was looking at web writing. They were looking for people to write 100-300 word articles for SEO spam. Object: Have something resembling normal sentence structure with the right buzz words. The pay was something like 50 cents an article.

Another one I looked at was photoshop touchups -- mostly looked like cleaning up scanned hardcopy. Again they were looking for 10 to 20 cents per image.

I've read a few 'interesting' stories about companies that outsourced work overseas. It works: But only if you have a local team also who writes absolutely iron clad specifications, down to the names of the variables.

Adobe shipped FrameMaker to India for work. Now they can't maintain FrameMaker. Too bad. It had some very cool features.

Go back at look at elance and see if you can pull stats on companies that have done many jobs that way. I bet you don't find many.

Or if you do bid, put a proper bid in. You'll write an awful lot of them. But eventually guys who got burned by spaghetti code, and no documentation will look at you more seriously.

I'd like to see one of these freelance companies that required you to put up a portfolio of your work before you could bid -- and that you better be able to answer some tough questions about your portfolio.
 
OK, one more.

This has happened to me twice now.

I see a project that suits my abilities and submit a bid almost immediately.
I get a message back with additional info about the project and the request for a proposal based on the extra information.

Right away I write a very detailed proposal, I submit it, go back to the website and find out that it has already been
awarded to someone else. So all my work was done for nothing, not even a thank you comes my way.
Clearly the owner of the project has no respect for the freelancer. (not just a problem on freelance sites of course)

Catalina
 
This is yet another ploy used by people tring to get something for nothing. They can sometimes get people to do some of their design work for them by using this technique. Unless I am absolutly certain of the parameters and I have created something similar in the past, I don't give fixed price bids. I tell them what my hourly rate is and a ballpark number of hours. You really don't want to work under any other conditions.
 
Some people ask for a sample database so they can check your style and capabilities.

How about sending a generic sample, just to show your qualities but not useable for the posted project?
That way they don't get something they need for free.
And such a sample can be used over and over again.

In addition, you can put some code in there to let it expire after a period of time.

Any thoughts?

Catalina
 
The problem with samples is they almost always belong to someone else. Just because I created them doesn't mean they are mine to distribute. I offer to do a walkthrough of several apps via GoToMeeting. I will even send a code module so they can see style but never a full app.
 
Pat, I see what you mean.

How about using a program like Camtasia, CamStudio or similar to make a video presentation of your
Access application and make it available to a potential client.

I think that a starting freelancer is also more likely to do something extra for potential leads just
to get a foot in the door and business going.

When you have no references or reviews yet, it is hard to earn someones trust.
On a low note, extras often make you an easy target to be taken advantage of.

Catalina
 
Just can't resist making another remark.

I also noticed on freelance sites that often the scope of the project changes after bids have
been put in, or the owner is very vague about what needs to be done.

Very hard to make a fair quote if you don't know what kind, and how much work is needed.

And some people just think it is normal to ask for more work but keep the deadline
and stick to the original amount.
 
Once you have a viable prospective client, creating samples or other "selling" tools makes sense. Just don't bother with it for random Elance posts because frequently they are just bottom fishing.
 
On Elance a person from the UK wants to hire someone to develop a hotel booking
system with all the bells and whistles.
It has to be done within the stunning budget of $40.

I'll pass.


Catalina
 

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