Moving forward from Access (2 Viewers)

[dazstarr]

Hi Guys

I was wondering if someone could point me in the right direction.

My job has taken some interesting turns in the past few weeks and to cut a long story short - I need to learn some new skills fast.

I was wondering if anyone has taken the jump from Access to ASP.

Is it any easy thing to learn? I have heard that I need to be fluent with Oracle databases, VB Script and Javascript.

Now - I am not an 'ace' programmer - i know or ask enough to get me by. I used VBA on my access databases, and have tinkered with SQL code but nothing from a blank canvas or anything to hardcore.

Has anyone got any advice for me?

Many Thanks in advance
Daz

 

[Marty_Bailey]

That's a tough question that can only be answered with more questions ;-) What does your company expect you to do? Access to ASP, completely different purpose, in most cases. Are you outgrowing Access and need to upsize to SQL Server? With a little more info, I might be able to recommend a book or two to get you started.

 

[dazstarr]

Hi

Thanks for replying.

Well from what I have heard on the grapevine is that Corporate IT want to do away with access.

I work as a development officer (amongst other things) for local government. For years I have been playing with the idea of upgrading my database skills. I feel that if I want to take my career seriously - I need to learn new in-demand skills.

The reason I have not looked into this earlier is because I have doubted my own skills, but I feel it's now time to bite the bullet and give it a try. What can I lose?!

I have been chatting to the developers here and they all use ASP and will be moving on to .NET applications very soon.

The developer I spoke to mentioned I would need to learn oracle for the backend, VB Script, HTML and Javascript if I wanted to learn ASP.

Just the thought of learning so many languages makes me a little uneasy.
I know a little VBA from using Access and have no experience of Oracle or Java. My SQL skills are also very basic.

Any recommendations or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Many Thanks
Daz

 

[DreamGenius]

Daz

Per the previous answer, you really need to decide what you want to achieve before you start asking these questions. Developers will always tell you that you need all of those things because the majority of application development is web oriented.

If you want to stick with databases, you should decide between Oracle and MS SQL. Both use proprietary versions of SQL, neither of which is ANSI compliant but both are more so that MS Access!

MS Access isn't really either a full-blown database or an application development tool; it sits between the two and does both sufficiently well to enable rapid development for interim, short-term or relatively low-usage applications.

Beyond that, you're looking at specialising and that's the choice that's facing you. Until you can answer that question, you can't really answer the skills one. ASP is not a logical step from MS Access; there are similarities and common skills but it's more of a sidewards than a forwards step.

 

[dazstarr]

Thanks for replying Dream.

What I would ideally like to do is create database driven websites. I have good knowledge of databases and some little html knowledge.

I guess my choice would be what platforms to use as a backend and front end.

In regards to the backend - it would be SQL server or Oracle. I have little knowledge with front end programming. I can build a website from scratch using html but unsure how to communicate with the backend or what language I can use to achieve this. Manipulating the data for the purpose of reports would be very beneficial to my role. I'm guessing this would be done using SQL?

In terms of fitting in with the bigger picture - I would like to create web based applications/forms that users here can use to carry out their day to day jobs.

I am just looking for some advice in regards to what platforms to use for both back and front end.

Thanks
Daz

 

[DreamGenius]

If you're a Microsoft fan, then follow the developer's suggestion of ASP, etc. If you want to be able to do it all, you'll need to understand how to administer IIS on a server, administer MS SQL on a server and set up databases in MS SQL.

The language behind ASP is (usually) Visual Basic, so that won't be a great leap from VBA. Rather than write all the manipulation code in the ASP pages, get in the habit of calling Stored Procedures from MS SQL, which can do the work of Action Queries, Macros or Functions. Use Views to select data, instead of constructing SQL on the fly. Also, like in MS Access, try to keep things modular and reuse them many times.

If I might be so bold, I'd play with using Access databases as the backend for web sites at home as an interim stage. All you need apart from MS Access, is a hosting company or server that is capable of rendering ASP pages.

 

[dazstarr]

Thanks Dream.

I think I will begin with using Access as a temporary backend whilst I get upto scratch with communicating with the database from the front end.

So I think i will be using ASP (VB) to communicate with the backend in the interim, then once I feel confident I will upgrade the backend to SQL Server.

Would you say this is a good approach?

Thanks for your advice
Daz

 

[DreamGenius]

Yes, definitely. Write yourself a basic application that uses a web front-end written in ASP instead of Forms in MS Access. That the tables are in MS Access makes it easier to do at home. Changing it all to MS SQL is simply using a different ODBC connection, providing of course that the database structure is the same.

 

[namliam]

Well from what I have heard on the grapevine is that Corporate IT want to do away with access.

This is something all "Corporate IT" people want who think they are "to good for this world".
Truth of the matter is business wouldnt work without Access because they are NOT doing their job, thus they try to solve the problem by taking away the solution. I have seen many companies try to 'outlaw' access. But have yet to see one succeed at it without significant investment and drain on both business side and IT side.

Dont get me wrong, upgrading your skills and learning some 'harcore' SQL etc cannot be a bad thing... but this is something your employer must support.
Why do your DBs have a right to live? Because they are fullfilling a need the "real IT" does not/cannot. You then appearently fill a gap, which cannot just disappear.

The developer I spoke to mentioned I would need to learn oracle for the backend, VB Script, HTML and Javascript if I wanted to learn ASP.

VB Script = VBA but without the A, it is a lot alike while beeing different enough to make you think. Force yourself to use it and in a month you will think you have never done anything else. A true Client/server situation though is VERY different from a 'simple' access db. 3 tier development etc... headaches. HTML and Java I dont know.

If you have a good understanding of how DBs work, joins, group by etc... learning 'hard core' SQL (in any language, Oracle/MySQL/SQL Server) is not a big step... just seems so because you are missing your designer.
A lot of times for complex queries I still use the Access designer with linked tables and copy paste the SQL, finaly addapt it for my need(s).

Any recommendations or advice would be greatly appreciated.

My recommendation, dont worry to much you are fullfilling a need and that need wont disappear overnight.

Developers will always tell you that you need all of those things because the majority of application development is web oriented.

Which a lot of times is a lot of hyped hogwash... Having an application "web enabled" for all 2 users *BLAG*
Easier to develop it in Access, faster cheaper and easier to maintain.

you should decide between Oracle and MS SQL. Both use proprietary versions of SQL

IMHO No need to choose, use what ever the company needs you too.
The basic of SQL is relational modeling, if you understand that... they SQL = SQL in any database.
The problems come mostly with functions, Format in Access = TO_CHAR in Oracle = Cast or Convert in SQL = etc.

This is what google is for.

it sits between the two and does both sufficiently well to enable rapid development for interim, short-term or relatively low-usage applications.

Beyond that, you're looking at specialising and that's the choice that's facing you. Until you can answer that question, you can't really answer the skills one.

Access itself is a true application, with a true purpose and a specialisation in itself. A lot of things that "real IT" cannot deliver in time or on the right level due to lack of business knowledge, is exactly where we as access developers shine and flurish.

We are close enough to the business and flexible enough to change on the dime if need be. This is both the power and RISK of access.
But when managed right and in the right developing hands, IMHO Access is indeed the core for day to day business where things change from day to day.

Have an immediate problem? Wait 3 weeks for IT to come up with its own priority for this problem, then wait another 2 weeks for assignment of resources... etc.
Access solves your problem here and now.

I know I am the "odd egg" out on this whole Inter/Intra-net hype thing, but I love (to) KISS and this is my right to live in the world.
Where IT takes a month, I take a week.
Where IT needs documents and requirements written by the business taking the business a week to do, I talk to the man with the problem for an hour or so and go solve his problems.

Offcourse Intra/Internet apps have their time and place, some of my tools have been upgraded to such 'monsters' over the course of time (by people far more skilled in that than me).
Yet... Users long back to the days when they could access my *cursed* access application because it was so easy and readily available.

KISS baby... KISS

 

[dazstarr]

Thank you for the advice. I think I will go down this route and see how i get on.

Many Thanks for the advice. I really appreciate it.
Daz

 

[dazstarr]

Namilam - Many thanks for your detailed reply. You understand exactly what is going through my mind.

I know access will be needed in my job for a considerable time yet - but I feel it is time to upgrade/move on with my self development. I would do this to gain new skills, develop myself and ultimately challenge myself.

Your very detailed reply helped put my mind at ease for now and it's good to know that there are other people like myself that are not programming monsters who churn out amazing code day in day out.

It's not as easy as it used to be with people constantly needing to self develop to keep up with the times. I just want to make sure I am well placed should anything happen with my job and I would like to keep all my options open.

Thanks again for your reply. Both Dream and Naliman.
Daz

 

[namliam]

Your very detailed reply helped put my mind at ease for now and it's good to know that there are other people like myself that are not programming monsters who churn out amazing code day in day out.

Hey I do my share of amazing stuff both inside of Access and outside it in Oracle or MySQL even in our Datawarehouse. My skills have gradually grown from my early access days.

What I am saying is stay with your power, Access. Dont try and outgrow it as if you know how to use it well it is THE most powerfull tool you will ever use.

Not all companies will ask for Access skills, but some/a lot of jobs expect/require it without actually mentioning it.
Having good access skills (acknowledge by IT or not) is good to have and will give you a strong base to grow into other area's.

The company you are with now, if they want to start using and/or using more and/or upgrading to Oracle databases... Fine... They will help you learn Oracle and you will develop this skill from your Access base.

Despite this "big database skill" you will find yourself in the future saying/thinking. *ugh* if only...
Or finding yourself in a situation where yout think but *ah* offcourse that is what the customer/business wanted.

Your access skills are more than just knowing how to push a few buttons in access. Developing in Access requires you analyse on the spot, a thing a lot of these "big shot" Oracle developers lack. This is a trully marketable skill! be it in Access, Oracle, PHP, ASP those are but tools.
The true skill is the analysis part of things.

 

[dazstarr]

I'm going to hang on to my access skills - it is too useful a tool.

It's fast, quick and efficient - and frankly - i love it.

But it is also time to expand my knowledge portfolio as I have no idea what the future brings - and I better be prepared!!

Thanks again
Daz

 

[Mike375]

Daz

My observation and based on Australia and life insurance companies is as follows:

You don't see much of Access since the premium quote systems have been done on line. Apart from the company's main data base all the other action is with Excel and of course of course Word.

If I was not self employed and had a real job in a larger company then I would want to learn about the things like Oracle and SQL Server.

Based on life insurance companies there seems to be a different thrust or direction with the Big Stuff Vs Access. What is done in Access more frequently has lots more flash stuff done. The big stuff seems to more often go down the road of fewer tasks being done/automated but with much more effort to it being fail proof and also scale.

If I was to phone an insurance company today to get some information on the number of a type of policy sold in certain post codes it would take a week If there are problems/meetings with the IT people it will be about things like issues with the renewals sysem or bank debits or the transfer of commissions to agents and similar.

I think that in general being an employee and especially for larger companies then certified qualifications are a big thing.

 

[dazstarr]

Hey Mike

Thanks for your comments.

My aim is to get some personal experience in my home - learn to a certain level and then go for some qualifications.

So far I have a degree in Business IT, Access Intermediate and Advanced courses and Prince2 Qualified.

I have enough qualifications to get me here so far - but need to continue to develop myself so more doors will open for me.

Although the big stuff has limitations on speed and readily available information - it is (I believe) natural progression for my database skills, and certainly a prerequisite to earning decent money for the forseeable future.

 

[Mike375]

it is (I believe) natural progression for my database skills, and certainly a prerequisite to earning decent money for the forseeable future.

I think that is 100%. If lots of money is to be made by punching stuff into the keyboard for Access, you need to be self employed. In fact the title of your thread illustrates the difference....Moving forward from Access...I am going backwards from Access so as to have some skills with Excel which I am seriously lacking.

 

[dazstarr]

I completely agree. I can't see any job out there that will pay you £30k+ for being an access developer, and if i have to be sensible about my choice of career - learning new skills is a must - however nerve racking it must initially be!

 

[Mike375]

I have met a couple of people with high earning jobs that are doing Access and Excel but the companies are small and "selling" software "solutions" is there business.

Actually, in the insurance companies the highest earners are the Excel experts not the big data base ITers but the Excel users in question are the actuaries

 

[namliam]

Prince(2)
If that is not a load of BS, I have it too... didnt learn a single thing... all commen sence and best practice nonsence... To think my company paid good money for it too

Dont equate bigger DB to bigger salary, such is not true at all. I think the skill you want develop is your "analisys" skills, i.e. soft skills, rather than your hard skills (tools).

If you give a carpenter an order to make a table, do you care if he uses the backend of a screw driver as a hammer? Nails in screws and licks on the paint? No, as long as you get the table you want.
I few this the same way. Each database, technique, language has its time and its place. Knowing when to use them (hammer vs Screwdriver) is what sets you appart from the (with all due respect) cheap labor out in India/China and such.

I.e. 'Anyone' anywhere can make any table... but someone who has been to your home and actually talked to you will know to make just that table that fits into your house and is exactly like you wanted it.

 

[dazstarr]

My soft skills could always be done with developing. But surely I will need the skills and tools which would go hand in hand with this. If someone asked me to develop a web application - I would certainly need dreamweaver/frontpage/notepad etc.

But I see your point - I would only need to use them when a need actually arises.

I feel there is no harm in having some prep work done in advance - that way at least I could learn the product and any limitations it provides. This was I can make an informed decision on the choice of solution.