Religious Debate (1 Viewer)

[ConnorGiles]

I thought it would be a good idea to start a religious debate, due to the fact I know we have some true hearted religious people on this forum and would like to share some questions that have been on my mind. Just to let you know where I stand on religion, I am an atheist that isn't particularly fond of the idea of religion but is interested to hear the logic behind some of each religions scriptures.

Please feel free to add your own questions.

#1 - (I have asked this on another thread but was not answered just yet), To this date, What has religion accomplished that may not have been accomplished without it? (Un-educated question, I would just like to know of anything )

#2 - What has Religion accomplished for yourself? (Interested to know )

#3 - One day what do you hope Religion may achieve?

#4 - Lastly, Do you ever believe religion will become obsolete if we ever do manage to find life outside of planet earth?

Thanks in advance for your comments.

 

[ConnorGiles]

Another thing I have come across - (This is for people who follow the Islamic Religions)

Translated it would mean "The path to life giving water" - I believe that is the translation - And It is clearly stated that Sharia Law should not be a matter of the state. (which means that it should not be forced upon everyone due to the fact it is a persons personal connection with Allah.)

Do you condemn the Extremists who are committing these attrocities in the name of Allah ?

Although it is actually stated in the Quran that Allah is against terrorism and that imposing religion upon someone is a sin:

http://www.juancole.com/2013/04/islamic-forbids-terrorism.html (Evidence)

Just an interesting subject I would like to hear some views.

 

[Alter2Ego]

I thought it would be a good idea to start a religious debate, due to the fact I know we have some true hearted religious people on this forum and would like to share some questions that have been on my mind. Just to let you know where I stand on religion, I am an atheist that isn't particularly fond of the idea of religion but is interested to hear the logic behind some of each religions scriptures.

ConnorGiles:

That portion of your comment (bolded in red) has great irony, because atheists are as religious as everybody else. In fact, at every website that I have ever debated at, the atheists flock to the Religion Debate forums trying to spread atheist theology.

Alter2Ego



________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

 

[Alter2Ego]

#1 - (I have asked this on another thread but was not answered just yet), To this date, What has religion accomplished that may not have been accomplished without it? (Un-educated question, I would just like to know of anything )

ConnorGiles:

Many of the universal laws people live by are based on religious teachings. Below are several universal religious teachings that are found in every type of religion--including atheist religions:

1. Do not steal.
2. Do not murder.
3. Do not lie.
4. Do not commit incest.


None of the above would have been accomplished without religion.


Alter2Ego


________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

 

[Alter2Ego]

#4 - Lastly, Do you ever believe religion will become obsolete if we ever do manage to find life outside of planet earth?

Thanks in advance for your comments.

ConnorGiles:

Religion will never become obsolete. Why not?

ANSWER: Because all humans were created with the desire to worship.


As for your speculation about finding life outside planet earth aka science fiction, what has that to do with the fact that all humans are religious and they will always be religious?.

Alter2Ego

________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

 

[Galaxiom]

Because all humans were created with the desire to worship.

If you understood science you would know that such a statement would require only a single case to disprove the assertion.

In fact there are millions who have no desire to worship. Many of us actually find the very concept of worship extremely distasteful. Indeed I find it disgusting.

Worship is not something people are born with but instilled in by those who wish to control them. It is backed by terrifying stories of eternal punishment for those who fail to comply.

To worship is to abrogate one's responsibility to think, leaving the worshiper open to suggestion. This technique has been used to motivate ordinary people to commit crimes against humanity throughout history.

I really have no time for Jehovah's Perjurers. You didn't witness anything but merely repeat the hearsay fed to you.

 

[Galaxiom]

atheists are as religious as everybody else.

A religious belief is one held without being subjected to reason. Atheists hold our position because we have assessed the arguments and found that religious beliefs are not backed by any evidence.

In fact, at every website that I have ever debated at, the atheists flock to the Religion Debate forums trying to spread atheist theology.

There is no atheist theology.

Indeed I have yet to find a religious person capable of debate. They invariably ignore the evidence put forward by atheists and continue to repeat their unsubstantiated assertion and mindless doctrine.

 

[ConnorGiles]

ConnorGiles:

That portion of your comment (bolded in red) has great irony, because atheists are as religious as everybody else. In fact, at every website that I have ever debated at, the atheists flock to the Religion Debate forums trying to spread atheist theology.

Alter2Ego

Hi Alter2Ego,

I understand your point that atheism can be classed as a religion, The Reason for my hate of religion (even some atheists) is that I know that no matter how long debates go on, There will never be a settlement as your god/s or our lack of one will always triumph over the next persons beliefs (in your mind).

I would never try and enforce someone to not believe in their god/s, because that is just not who I am. But I definitely agree that some atheists push their opinions on a lot of religious debates. I believe that an atheist should be someone who does not believe in a superhuman controlling power (a god) and should not care if anyone else does believe in one. My problem starts when (Believing) Religions come to my doorstep and expect me to convert.

ConnorGiles:

Many of the universal laws people live by are based on religious teachings. Below are several universal religious teachings that are found in every type of religion--including atheist religions:

1. Do not steal.
2. Do not murder.
3. Do not lie.
4. Do not commit incest.


None of the above would have been accomplished without religion.


Alter2Ego

I see your point here Alter2Ego,

But I wouldn't necessarily agree with it, In a civilised society such as today I would believe following those rules solely comes down to common courtesy and Mutual respect of human beings. I shall answer each of these rules individually to what I would think would have happened with these rules without religion.

1. Do not steal. - Common courtesy, I'm sure they had rules for that sort of thing before the commandments where given, you don't steal mine - I won't steal yours.
2. Do not murder - Mutual Respect for humans, Most people with murderous intent have a reason behind it (or they're fruit loops) and did they not yet again have a rule for murderers before the commandments where set down?
3. Do not lie - 100% hasn't stuck, people do this on a daily basis, that's why a lie detector was made in the first place .
4. Do not commit incest - Mankind has a tendency to realise when mistakes are made, They would realise that when a baby was born via brother and sister (or any other family) that deformities and disabilities would be a common trait and would later stop performing incest. (maybe it would have taken a while longer or who knows maybe by the time your religion made these rules, it was already well known incest was a bad thing)

Religion will never become obsolete. Why not?

ANSWER: Because all humans were created with the desire to worship.


As for your speculation about finding life outside planet earth aka science fiction, what has that to do with the fact that all humans are religious and they will always be religious?.

Alter2Ego

And this is the part where I start to see which side of the fence you sit Alter2Ego! I should have realised with your signature. Who is to say humans where created? (Obviously in your religion we were) but to an atheist such as myself we were evolved into what we are today. We were not created with any sense of worship, we survive on a daily basis and that is what I believe to be our basic instinct. Survival is what keeps a human from giving up in their worst moments, Worship comes nowhere near the ball park for me.

Another thing, Unless you are some sort of all knowing prophet Alter2Ego, How would you ever know we will never find life outside of earth? Calling it Science Fiction and putting the statement in bald just shows ignorance to other peoples views.

As to what it has to do with religion. You were a perfect example as to why I said it. Believers such as yourself will call "Aliens" science fiction whereas if they ever Proved to exist it would throw the foundations on what you believe into disarray. Or would religion adapt once again to the new evidence? (I do believe evidence has cropped up in the past and a lot of religions moulded the new testament around it. but I may be wrong )

 

[Galaxiom]

I believe that an atheist should be someone who does not believe in a superhuman controlling power (a god) and should not care if anyone else does believe in one.

The problem is that religious hold positions of power and influence. There are Lords who have legislative power by virtue of their religious position.

The religious demand that their doctrine be the basis for public policy even when it conflicts with scientific understanding.

These are the reasons it does matter to atheists.

 

[ConnorGiles]

The problem is that religious hold positions of power and influence. There are Lords who have legislative power by virtue of their religious position.

The religious demand that their doctrine be the basis for public policy even when it conflicts with scientific understanding.

These are the reasons it does matter to atheists.

As to why I said, It is when believers come knocking on my door asking for me to convert when I have a problem. Believers (religious people) can believe all they like but when they start trying to force me to is when my tensions rise.

I do agree with you religion should not be a position of power, conflicting religion with politics can only end in tears. (keep your work/home life separate as it would be)

 

[Frothingslosh]

A large part of the reason the writers of the US Constitution explicitly separated Church from State is the memory of the thousands of years of bloodshed in Europe and the Middle East over religion.

Even so, it was an imperfect separation - note that the US motto was changed from "E Pluribus Unum" to "In God We Trust" and the phrase "under God" added to the US Pledge of Allegiance, both in the 1950s, and our courts have continually thrown out all cases challenging the constitutionality of those changes ever since.

Right now, the headlines in the US (for our non-American friends here) are all about the drama going down in Alabama. The ban on same-sex marriages that was added to the Alabama constitution was recently found in violation of the US Constitution (specifically, the 14th amendment). Last Friday, the US Supreme Court refused to issue a stay on the ruling, which meant that starting Monday, same-sex marriage licenses were to start being issued.

On Sunday, Alabama Supreme Court Chief Justice Roy Moore (who was removed from the bench 10 years ago over a religious statue he placed in his courthouse and refused to remove, and then re-elected 5 years ago) issued orders to every judge and courthouse in the state, ordering them to not issue same-sex marriage licenses. At the same time, he ordered the governor to prosecute anyone who did so under the unconstitutional amendment and related law. His logic? That federal courts do not have the ability to rule on constituionality of state laws and constitutional amendments.

So a bit over half of the courthouses in Alabama are refusing to issue same-sex marriage licenses, with most of them refusing to issue any at all. This is effectively a non-violent (so far) rebellion. All because they feel marriage was created by God and defined as male/female.

So yeah, any religionist who tells you they have no desire to tell you how to run your life is lying through his or her teeth.

On a different topic, the Code of Hammurabi and the Sumerian Code of Ur-Nammu both pre-date Mosaic law by well over a thousand years, and both of them have strictures against robbery, murder, and the like. So, seeing as these laws pre-date the Torah, much less the bible, it means that claims that Western law rests upon the Bible are laughable.

Sometime I'll go over how I went from Christian to atheist-leaning agnostic.

 

[Frothingslosh]

On a more positive note, and back on the original topic:

1) Religion has inspired a lot of beautiful artwork that may never have been created otherwise. Whether it be Beethoven's 'Ode to Joy', Handel's 'Messiah', the Sistine Chapel, Michaelangelo's 'David', or any of many, many other artworks (and I admit I know little about non-Western religious art), they wouldn't exist were it not for religion. The forms would, but not those specific items.

It's the same with buildings like the Temple of Zeus, the Chichen Itza, and the Pyramids (although the latter were as much about certain pharaohs' pride as much as preparing for the afterlife).

2) A lot of arguments and pain.

3) The maturity to stop attempting to control the lives of everyone. That or to go away - take your pick.

4) Nope. If the life is at all intelligent, then there will be riots, fatwahs, pronouncements by leaders and fundamentalists alike that the aliens are demons, etc, and just all sorts of upheavel from the fanatics. Eventually, most religions will likely adapt and begin trying to convert the aliens.

On a side note, you should read Arthur C. Clarke's short story 'The Star'. It's...interesting.

 

[Alter2Ego]

ConnorGiles:

Religion will never become obsolete. Why not?

ANSWER: Because all humans were created with the desire to worship.

If you understood science you would know that such a statement would require only a single case to disprove the assertion.

Galaxiom:

Science has nothing to do with the fact that humans are created beings and that they were created with the desire to worship. Now, what or whom they choose to worship is an entirely different matter, but worship they will.

In fact there are millions who have no desire to worship. Many of us actually find the very concept of worship extremely distasteful. Indeed I find it disgusting.

Which millions would that be? Every single person in existence has a desire to worship. The routine of atheists is to claim that simply because they do not believe in a God or gods, then that automatically means they are not religious. It turns out atheists are as religious as everybody else.

Alter2Ego

________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

 

[Alter2Ego]

Worship is not something people are born with but instilled in by those who wish to control them. It is backed by terrifying stories of eternal punishment for those who fail to comply.

Galaxiom:

Wrong. The choice of religious beliefs is what can be instilled in people. The desire to worship can never be instilled in anyone, because that desire is inherent to all humans.

To worship is to abrogate one's responsibility to think, leaving the worshiper open to suggestion. This technique has been used to motivate ordinary people to commit crimes against humanity throughout history.

Then that explains why atheists worship science fiction--their substitute for a god. They worship it to such an extent that they insist on believing the science fiction myth that humans evolved and that our fine-tuned universe happened by accident. Never mind that there is no scientific evidence to prove evolution theory. And never mind the fact that the evidence from true science indicates repeated precision requires intelligent intervention. In fact, I will start up a thread on evolution myth shortly.

Alter2Ego



________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

 

[Alter2Ego]

ConnorGiles:

That portion of your comment (bolded in red) has great irony, because atheists are as religious as everybody else. In fact, at every website that I have ever debated at, the atheists flock to the Religion Debate forums trying to spread atheist theology.

Alter2Ego

I would never try and enforce someone to not believe in their god/s, because that is just not who I am. But I definitely agree that some atheists push their opinions on a lot of religious debates. I believe that an atheist should be someone who does not believe in a superhuman controlling power (a god) and should not care if anyone else does believe in one. My problem starts when (Believing) Religions come to my doorstep and expect me to convert.

ConnorGiles:

It depends which "believing religions" you are referring to when you say they "expect" you to convert. That is not an expection that my religious group has when it discusses scripture with various ones. We present people with information that is intended to help them make informed decisions, particularly if certain ones are searching for religious truth. If certain ones reject that information, then that is entirely up to them.



Alter2Ego


________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

 

[Frothingslosh]

You keep saying that humans are created beings. As the person making the assertion, please provide documented evidence of such. One note: A much-mistranslated book containing the oral histories of bronze age tribesmen is not scientific evidence any more than Harry Potter novels are proof of the existence of Hogwart's. Also, "I believe God said so" also is not proof.

 

[Galaxiom]

The choice of religious beliefs is what can be instilled in people. The desire to worship can never be instilled in anyone, because that desire is inherent to all humans.

As I said earlier. Theists don't debate but simply ignore the evidence and continue to repeat their unsubstantiated assertions and dogma.

 

[Frothingslosh]

As I said earlier. Theists don't debate but simply ignore the evidence and continue to repeat their unsubstantiated assertions and dogma.

I've known a very, very few who debate, but you're correct; the vast majority just yell the same thing over and over and expect you to accept it because.

 

[ConnorGiles]

ConnorGiles:

It depends which "believing religions" you are referring to when you say they "expect" you to convert. That is not an expection that my religious group has when it discusses scripture with various ones. We present people with information that is intended to help them make informed decisions, particularly if certain ones are searching for religious truth. If certain ones reject that information, then that is entirely up to them.



Alter2Ego

I continue to see that you honestly believe every human inherits wanting to worship, Please provide a morsel of evidence for this. Also Information is something that can be backed up by facts, Quoting a book in which may/may not have been made up doesn't fall into the "Fact" category for me.

 

[Brianwarnock]

I think that history does show that the human race does (did?)want to believe in a super power inorder to explain the things it does (did?) not understand, and to blame its moods for the problems that beset us. It seems to me that the most rational of these "gods" are those such as the Sun God as it did at least influence events and achieve things, unlike Jehovah and the like.

Brian