Religious Debate

[ConnorGiles]

I think back then Brian, Didn't they have gods to cover most things?

Fertility, Water, Sun, War, Darkness etc...

I can see what you mean, but more likely then not there was the atheist bunch who didn't believe. (probably not called atheists but just classed as the faithless).

I fear mindless belief will follow us until extinction, but there will always be the group who does not believe.

EDIT: Re-reading your post and I do agree, Those were possibly the most rational, Just because they were everyday occurrences.

 

[Alter2Ego]

I continue to see that you honestly believe every human inherits wanting to worship, Please provide a morsel of evidence for this. Also Information is something that can be backed up by facts, Quoting a book in which may/may not have been made up doesn't fall into the "Fact" category for me.

ConnorGiles:

As they say in legal jargon, "Res ipsa loquitur" which means "the thing speaks for itself." Every single human being on this planet worships someone or something. You know that, I know that, and everybody reading this thread knows that.

Alter2Ego


________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

 

[Galaxiom]

Every single human being on this planet worships someone or something. You know that, I know that, and everybody reading this thread knows that.

Not so. As I have already made clear, I don't worship and neither do most of my friends.

Therefore your proposition is disproved.

Maybe you should try to get out a bit more instead of making all your observations among Jehovah's Perjurers.

 

[ConnorGiles]

Not so. As I have already made clear, I don't worship and neither do most of my friends.

Therefore your proposition is disproved.

Maybe you should try to get out a bit more instead of making all your observations among Jehovah's Perjurers.

I agree, I do not worship anything either. I do not know where these wrongly informed opinions came from Alter2Ego, But as Galaxiom has said - you should get out more.

 

[Frothingslosh]

Let's not forget, he thinks people 'worship' science.

And it's amazing how apt my signature quote is.

 

[ConnorGiles]

It seems he has given up fighting his corner! maybe he's an atheist now with all this startling evidence in all

 

[Frothingslosh]

It seems he has given up fighting his corner! maybe he's an atheist now with all this startling evidence in all

I find that to be rather less likely to occur then the chance of my ever having the same number of socks come out of the was as I put into it.

 

[ConnorGiles]

I find that to be rather less likely to occur then the chance of my ever having the same number of socks come out of the was as I put into it.

Pigs shall fly!

 

[Frothingslosh]

Pigs shall fly!

That just takes a catapult. I swear pulling the same number of socks out of the wash as you put into it takes a freaking miracle.

 

[ConnorGiles]

I heard Jesus performs those,

Ask him to do your washing. Problems solved.

 

[Frothingslosh]

I heard Jesus performs those,

Ask him to do your washing. Problems solved.

Okay, if A2E is still checking this, you may have just made his head explode.

 

[ConnorGiles]

I may have done that a long time ago, That's why he isn't posting

 

[CJ.B]

Galaxiom,

You (in particular) really need to be called out (In a friendly way I hope) on the tack you are taking regarding theistic belief not being grounded in reason. One example among many is your note in Post #7

“….A religious belief is one held without being subjected to reason ….”

While its certainly true that not all theists consciously ground their beliefs in reason, it is also true that some do and moreover that theistic belief itself certainly can be so grounded.

First of all, there are classical theistic arguments such as: ontological, cosmological, teleological,moral etc. Are you unfamiliar?

Secondly, there is * A LOT * of accessible contemporary debate surrounding the reasonableness of faith/theism etc. Are your unfamiliar? Check out William Lane Craig’s debates on youtube with scientists and athiests such as Christopher Hitchens (usually quite entertaining by the way). Or the work of John Lennox, mathematician and philosopher of science. Or that of philosopher Alvin Plantinga (heavier stuff). Or .....

If you interacted with theistic arguments and still disagreed it would be one thing but bald or anecdotal assertions are of no use in supporting your position. There is much evidence in support of the rationality/reasonableness of theism and it’s at your fingertips. You may not be convinced but I urge you to at least take a look and be informed!

 

[The_Doc_Man]

First, my answers to the questions:

#1 - To this date, What has religion accomplished that may not have been accomplished without it?

a. Creating divisions among those who otherwise might have been good friends and welcomed members of a geographic-based community. See, for example, the Sunni and Shiite conflicts or the Wahabbi sect and practically anyone else. See also the conflicts between Christianity and Islam through the ages, which is even more ironic since Islam was merely a schism from Judaism just as Christianity was a more recent schism from Judaism.

b. Giving folks something to argue about that is based on multiple mistaken beliefs that pander to the inherent territoriality of the human brain.

I specifically omitted "teaching someone to read." That would have occurred anyway. Religion merely changed the rate at which that occurred and the book from which those early reading lessons would have been based.

#2 - What has Religion accomplished for yourself?

Convinced me that the most religious among us have forgotten that they are basing their hateful beliefs on persons who touted the values of forgiveness and acceptance, not conformance to rigid law.

#3 - One day what do you hope Religion may achieve?

Recognition that just as life changes and evolves, just as modern philosophy evolves, so religious beliefs must evolve to keep up with modern science. The bibble was written at a time when science couldn't explain much of anything - but now it can explain a LOT. Yet the bibble stays stagnant, as do the thoughts of its most virulent adherents.

#4 - Lastly, Do you ever believe religion will become obsolete if we ever do manage to find life outside of planet earth?

Finding life outside planet Earth won't be necessary for religion to become obsolete, but then again, religion already has the answer to that one: "We must visit these heathens and educate them as to the glories of the Savior." I can see starting an interstellar version of the Crusades over religion.

Having said that, may I respectfully recommend an excellent fictional work on the topic of question #4?

James K Blish wrote a novel, A Case of Conscience, involving the discovery of an alien, atheistic race with strong morals - something that would appear to violate the Manichaean Heresy (not sure I spelled that name right) regarding how God must be the source of all morals, but the heretics claimed they didn't need the church.

In this novel, Mr. Blish told the story of a Jesuit priest who had participated in the planetary survey and verified the combination of atheism and morality, which caused him to begin to question his faith. I will avoid telling too much more of the story, but it was a well-written piece where the reader's religious beliefs (or lack of same) would allow two different views of the story depending on which side of that fence you sat... all the way to the end. In essence, everything was capable of two interpretations of why it occurred. As an amateur writer myself, I was dazzled by his skill at skating between the opposing viewpoints so effectively.

I believe Mr. Blish is either now deceased or at least is no longer writing. His works should be available in a good library or a bookstore that caters to fiction from the middle of the 20th century.

 

[Frothingslosh]

I didn't look up his full library, but I can confirm that A Case of Conscience is available on Amazon.

And on a completely unrelated note, my wallet seems a bit lighter. Weird, that.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

I heard Jesus performs those,

Ask him to do your washing. Problems solved.

No, Jesus didn't do socks. He liked to wash your naked feet. Take it at face value.

 

[Leo_Coroneos]

Did anyone ask this yet? --Isn't it a bit, well, "blasphemous" to have the so-called Ten Commandments of Access stickied in the main forums section? And don't even get me started on my so-called Access 2016 Bible!

 

[Leo_Coroneos]

#1 - (I have asked this on another thread but was not answered just yet), To this date, What has religion accomplished that may not have been accomplished without it? (Un-educated question, I would just like to know of anything )

#2 - What has Religion accomplished for yourself? (Interested to know )

#3 - One day what do you hope Religion may achieve?

#4 - Lastly, Do you ever believe religion will become obsolete if we ever do manage to find life outside of planet earth?

Thanks in advance for your comments.

#1: It has both unified and divided nations and households.

#2: Made me so naive and gullible as to fall into all kinds of misfortune and disaster. Yet, I choose Paganism as my religion nowadays; tried Gnostic Christianity and that did nothing for me, tried mainstream Christianity and that got me abused and humiliated; tried Hinduism and it got me flashes of enlightenment that quickly disappeared when I stopped meditating.

#3: I hope my religion, Paganism, may save "white Europe." Incidentally, I listen to a lot of black metal, including what's known as NSBM. There's a touchy subject for you!

#4: No, because I don't believe NASA, nor China or Russia, nor quantum physics, nor any religion for that matter, will ever get us to the point where we'll find other sentient beings within outer space.

Great questions, made me think hard.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Ah, Leo - welcome to the fracas - even if it has cooled down a bit.

Let's hope the more virulent of the religious trolls keeps away for a while. They can get nasty.

 

[NauticalGent]

Ah this topic...

In my 52 years of existence on this earth, I know just one thing to be an absolute truth: I have no freaking clue about a damn thing.

What I beleive however, is what I beleive and here it is:
1. There is a higher power that made all of “this” happen. What or who “it” is, your belief as as good as mine. Good luck to you if you try to convince me otherwise...
2. Religion is man-made. Man is flawed. Therefore religion itself can be flawed and I have found many.

I was raised catholic but have been “reborn” as baptist, Methodist and I think Lutheran too, but I can’t be sure. I could go into detail about why it all happened but frankly I don’t think anyone reading this would give a flying flip at a rolling donut, so I will dispense with it.

I married into a devout Pentecostal family and my wife’s father is still an ordained preacher. With the exception of my darling wife, they have all tried to bring me into the fold, but have ceased. People simply beleive what they chose to beleive and without solid, quantifiable facts, they will not change their minds - and sometimes that isn’t even enough.

Her father and I have had a few discussions but when you boil it down, all of his facts are based in faith and once that is revealed, there is simply no sense in continuing the debate. Of course they accused me of being intentionally argumentative and willingly blind, but at least they have stopped trying.

My wife and I simply just do not discuss religion. Out of respect to her, I do my best to not blaspheme but I don’t always succeed. Work in progress...