Trump on Pregnancy

[Mark_]

Doc, I had no idea you were a Trump lover. It must be weird to support a president who polled the least votes from the populace but still won the election.

I can understand... Almost as though he were running for Prime Minister or something...

 

[Vassago]

but we don't have the facilities to house whole families under reasonable conditions and still keep them in custody.

This doesn't make any sense to me. Isn't that what we were already doing, just keeping them separated for no good reason? Certainly the parents were in custody and the kids were being housed someplace. This means that everyone was being housed, supposedly under reasonable conditions.

 

[Mark_]

@ Vassago,

With the increase in enforcement, more families are being detained. Parents are being put into federal facilities and their children are going into the foster system.

The parents, being culpable, are facing prosecution and potential incarceration. They are monitored closely.

The children, not being culpable, are going into a non-secure system. Down side is this means they suffer the same fate as others in the foster system. Lack of detention for children means they can run away.

As those entering the U.S. illegally have not notified the U.S. government of their intent with enough lead time for facilities to house them to be built and staffed, you run into space limitations.

In perspective, think what would happen to Jacksonville if the entire population of Miami decided to move north after a hurricane hit the city. Would Jacksonville be able to handle 1 million extra people?

 

[AccessBlaster]

The Word is out! If you come here of your own free will, you could be incarcerated and separated from your children. The "Nazis" at the border under the direction of the "Führer" will basically kill you.

And yet they still swarm the border to be here. Why is that? Unlike North Korea where people are actually trying to get out. These people are trying to enter the concentration camps. Makes you wonder.

Tongue firmly in cheek.

 

[Beetle]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The USA needs a viable third party that is more in the middle of the road between liberalism and conservatism...

Couldn't agree more Doc. The two major parties in the USA have become two sides of the same coin. You'll get a different image depending on which side of the coin you are looking at, but the basic properties of the coin remain the same. Corruption, Dishonesty, Propaganda.

As far as individual politicians, there might be a few good ones on each side of the aisle, but the vast majority of them, upon getting elected, have a singular goal. Get re-elected. And they are (for the most part) not stupid. They will take the pulse of their constituency, then do or say whatever is necessary in order to achieve that singular goal. In addition to a third party, we need term limits.

Can't speak for the UK, but I would imagine it's not much different.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

I can't find the quote but I believe it was from one of the old Roman philosophers who was bemoaning the fate of Rome a generation or three after Julius Caesar. He said (and I am paraphrasing) - the nation has reached the stage where it is doomed because the people have realized that they can vote to get benefits for themselves and no one tells them they cannot. The quote recognized the terrible fact that politicians feared telling anyone "no" because they knew they would not be re-elected.

Looks like we have ignored history and are doomed to repeat it.

 

[Vassago]

My post was tongue-in-cheek. I think it was lost in translation.

This increased enforcement is really the problem. They pretend it doesn't hurt our bottom line to go after all of the illegal immigrants, but the fact is, it does. How much taxpayer money is used on these witch hunts? How many families are hurt by them? Contrary to popular belief, illegal immigration as a whole does not cost us billions without cherry-picking the statement like Drumph did. Statistics have consistently proven that the second generation, i.e. the kids, of illegal immigrants provide a much needed boost in tax money and economic growth. If we continue to separate these families and detain the parents for prosecution, the long-term consequences will be felt.

 

[Vassago]

As for Rome, let's not forget the "too big to fail" and "greatest nation in the world" rhetoric that seems to resonate pretty loudly from much of the US population. We also have the excessive GREED of the top percentage, widening distribution of wealth, and a workforce that in many ways has started to resemble more slavery than career opportunity. We look more and more like Rome every day. I couldn't agree more that we are doomed to fail if all of these things don't change.

 

[ColinEssex]

Rightly or wrongly, I am given the impression by the USA that they are waving two fingers to the rest of the world.
They pull out of any climate change agreements (Kyoto and Paris) despite the USA being the worst polluting country. They impose massive tariffs on imports from Europe and Asia. They have no feelings or respect for human rights - think Guantanamo and all these separated children.

Is that the wrong impression coming out of the USA onto our televisions?

Col

 

[Frothingslosh]

I would say 'Republicans', not 'Americans'. A *LOT* of Americans are against that idiocy.

Sadly, a lot of people support those policies, too, but some of it is no different than the anti-Muslim backlash washing through Europe (very much including England). Racists and other moral degenerates are the same no matter where they live, whether they support stealing children from parents or merely keeping the scary brown people out.

 

[Frothingslosh]

And just to put the fear of God into you, the sole semi-moderate member of the US Supreme Court just announced his retirement, and the GOP will absolutely make sure a complete batshit-crazy right-wing extremist replaces him, giving them full unopposed control of the entire US government.

You ain't seen nothin' yet.

 

[Vassago]

Rightly or wrongly, I am given the impression by the USA that they are waving two fingers to the rest of the world.
They pull out of any climate change agreements (Kyoto and Paris) despite the USA being the worst polluting country. They impose massive tariffs on imports from Europe and Asia. They have no feelings or respect for human rights - think Guantanamo and all these separated children.

Is that the wrong impression coming out of the USA onto our televisions?

Col

Not only that... those massive tariffs are impacting American jobs. Smaller companies are looking like they may need to close since they won't be able to compete and larger companies have already threatened to take their manufacturing offshore. Even Harley Davidson has stated they are moving some of their production offshore because the import costs are too high. Toyota announced today that these tariffs will cost the Camry $1,800 more to build... each. These tariffs impact all working Americans in the long run. It's stupid to think the costs won't be passed to us.

The climate change agreements, don't even get me started on that! He seems dead set on killing cleaner energy sources. I'm sure this is only to appease his political lackeys (or is he the lackey to them?).

He only bent on the family separation issues weeks later because of the public outcry and his ability to blame Dems for turning down the bill that would have supposedly kept them together, but not for the better when you read between the lines.

And the reports that the Nuclear production in North Korea is ongoing only prove that the little meeting he used to boost his ego and lackey perception was nothing more than smoke and mirrors. We've had a half-dozen "agreements" with them before.

It's like our Cheeto in Chief does not have any clue what he is actually doing. Imagine that!

 

[Mark_]

Is that the wrong impression coming out of the USA onto our televisions?

Col

It is wrong to let a television do your thinking for you. One colloquial phrase for it is the "Idiot box".

 

[Frothingslosh]

Cheeto in Chief

At this point, I'm pretty much set with Der Orangenführer.

 

[ColinEssex]

Sadly, a lot of people support those policies, too, but some of it is no different than the anti-Muslim backlash washing through Europe (very much including England).

Yes, there are factions of European populace that are anti Muslim. As there is in the USA - didn't Trump want to ban Muslims from entering the USA? But, after your country has endured several serious Muslim extremist attacks with many killed, one does tend to be sceptical of dodgy foreign tanned people.

But in my post, I wasn't referring to specific threats, I merely stated how the USA is being reported and whether that is fair.
As usual, you see a chance to bash a sensible post as it has my name on it, wake up frothy and get that looney out of the White House instead of defending his crazy ideas. Maybe you and Doc should start a Trump loving thread, neither of you seem to grasp what damage he causes, but then he'll get voted in for a second term with the least votes.

Col

 

[AccessBlaster]

At this point, I'm pretty much set with Der Orangenführer.

The democrats have a few skeletons.

Franklin D. Roosevelt Was the first President to intern American Citizens and Harry S. Truman incinerated men women and children by the hundreds of thousands, dropping two atomic bombs. Both Democrats. Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forrest was the KKK’s first grand wizard.

It's pointless and endless.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Rightly or wrongly, I am given the impression by the USA that they are waving two fingers to the rest of the world. They pull out of any climate change agreements (Kyoto and Paris) despite the USA being the worst polluting country. They impose massive tariffs on imports from Europe and Asia. They have no feelings or respect for human rights - think Guantanamo and all these separated children.

Colin, I will tell you how MANY (but not all) of the USA feels. I do not claim to speak for all USA citizens. But I have seen these ideas expressed by many.

<Begin Devil's Advocate>

The issue with tariffs is that when we accuse others of "evading" fair trade agreements using tricks and "ledger"-demain (pardon the pun), we are sorely chastised, called liars, or told to go whine to someone else. But when we take steps to level the playing field, we are the bad guys.

The bit with the Kyoto and Paris accords is that the rest of the big players there are using the same tactics used by school-yard bullies. They can't pull themselves up to your level so they try to drag you down to theirs. And a lot of people recognize that. (Personally, I don't like pollution any more than anyone else. I see it as a source of organic diseases.) Honoring a badly imbalanced agreement is not a good long-term strategy no matter how you cut it.

USA-based charitable organizations pay good money donated by USA citizens to various human rights organizations to help with child support in impoverished nations, then the USA gets slammed because we want to control our borders and it isn't an easy task. We put terrorists in an isolated detention center because we don't know where else to put them where their rancid and toxic world view won't pollute our general prisons. But I CAN and WILL assure you that the liberal-slanted media will only tell you one side of the story.

DJT is telling the rest of the world that we are tired of being cast as the Great Satan. The other nations like our money but hate our politics. So they suck at Uncle Sugar's teat and then crap all over us. Maybe it is time we weaned some little brats and make them grow up. TAKE some responsibility for cleaning up your own messes. A lot of the illegal immigrants are fleeing violent environments in their homelands. If those countries want our help, they should clean up their messes and get people to stay and WORK with those governments to make things better.

OK, DJT is a ham-fisted politician who puts on golf cleats before he steps on toes. But he's not wrong that he - and many US citizens - are tired of being the bad guy who is tolerated only because we have to bribe the world to like us. If you guys out there hate us so much, do without our money for a while. See how much you miss your water when the well runs dry.

The two fingers, Colin, are quite accurate. If you believe in democracy and the right to forge your own destiny, fine. We are happy to be your friends. But if you cozy up to us because the only thing you like is our money, then - to be blunt: Screw that idea.

It is Americans who have EXACTLY that perception (of how the WORLD sees US) who put DJT in office. Is the perception correct? Damned if I know. I'm guessing it isn't completely like that, though it is probably true for some situations. But is that an accurate statement of how many USA people feel? Yes it is.

<End Devil's Advocate>

Frothy will disagree with me (no surprise there). Perhaps even be morally outraged with me (again, if it happens, no surprise). To be clear, I explicitly agree that this attitude I have described is NOT shared by everyone. But it was exactly this feeling I have just described that led to DJT being elected.

To the members of the forum: I'm not nuts. I'm responding to Colin's question by telling him the basis for some of DJT's actions. He wants to know if this is the way we feel in the USA. The answer is that some people feel strongly this way. Others do not. But the last election showed that a LOT of people really ARE fed up with the way others see us. They are ready to tell the world to go bugger themselves.

 

[ColinEssex]

I had to smile at Docs rant, sorry, post.

The USA has spent decades pretending to rule and police the world. They tell off countries for nuclear development whilst in silos all over the US is enough firepower to destroy the world. They start wars and then lose.
They have been forever telling us how great they are. Now, they changed their minds and expect the world to understand.

Just what exactly does the USA want? It's awfully confusing.

Col

 

[The_Doc_Man]

It's awfully confusing.

The USA would like some consistency among supposed allies who take our money and run. We have tried to lead by example but that doesn't work and as we get more and more frustrated, we become less effective examples.

I see it as a pendulum, and perhaps it has begun to swing a bit towards isolationism. Not totally so, but perhaps just a bit.

Part of our strength in the past has been that we wanted multiculturalism. But now, with people thumbing their noses at our border laws and coming in to use our own kindness against us, maybe we are ready put the brakes on all that immigration. Particularly the illegal part.

 

[ColinEssex]

Doc, you keep referring to money. I am guessing you are referencing overseas aid?

If so, I kind of agree with you. Last year we gave £400 million to India to help them supply clean water, etc etc etc. Coincidentally, the Indian government spent £400 million on developing a space programme.
We also gave a couple of hundred million to another country (I forget who) and the government there spent it on funding their civil war. Not on rebuilding their country.

As far as I can see, the USA has made its bed as I said earlier and the " pulling up the drawbridge, I'm alright Jack" attitude is the wrong approach. I think the word not in the US vocabulary is "subtlety", do things quietly so nobody notices and don't Tweet every 5 seconds telling an uninterested world.

Col