The quantification of life

[Access_guy49]

just a thought, (And i know it's a horrible thought) but in many ways a fetus is like cancer.

Both grow inside a host body, both are not able to sustain themselves
Both cause a risk to the host.
both are "Alive" and made of human cells

wouldn't it be odd if we said that people couldn't remove those cancer cells... made it against the law.... Because God made their body that way.

 

[Vassago]

That was exactly my point. Statistics for something that is so subjective (as most are) are complete BS. Watch the Penn and Teller episode on it.

 

[Thales750]

That was exactly my point. Statistics for something that is so subjective (as most are) are complete BS. Watch the Penn and Teller episode on it.

What about 13% is subject to interpretation? Now I realize you are most likely not talking about that part.

But no matter how you slice it, a measurable percentage are not able to pay. And any way you dice it a measurable amount of men that do not have custody, deserve it.

I think they should reward joint custody in the majority of cases and in those, no child support should be demanded except in cases of real income disparity.

 

[Vassago]

What about 13% is subject to interpretation? Now I realize you are most likely not talking about that part.

But no matter how you slice it, a measurable percentage are not able to pay. And any way you dice it a measurable amount of men that do not have custody, deserve it.

I think they should reward joint custody in the majority of cases and in those, no child support should be demanded except in cases of real income disparity.

Not able to pay is subjective. One person may be looking for work and unable to find it. Another may not be able to pay because they won't find work or are lazy. Every case is different. Statistics can't account for all unique situations.

 

[Thales750]

Not able to pay is subjective. One person may be looking for work and unable to find it. Another may not be able to pay because they won't find work or are lazy. Every case is different. Statistics can't account for all unique situations.

That's the point of deviations in statistical math, but the numbers are not really the issue are they?

The issue is that a woman decides either way if she is going to have an abortion or not. The father is locked into a life time commitment to her decision. Maybe if a man goes on record as wanting an abortion, she must wave child support rights, or else she must give the child up for adoption.

 

[Access_guy49]

The issue is that a woman decides either way if she is going to have an abortion or not. The father is locked into a life time commitment to her decision.

Not really. If she opts to have an abortion and the man doesn't want it, then yes, that would be true. But in the reverse scenario, there are thousands upon thousands of cases where the men just up and leave. So in fact, no it is not the case. Biologically, men have it easy, we were given a free pass to stay or go. Don't sign the birth certificate... done and done.

Now you listed of what the woman should have to do in the event the father doesn't want the child.... what if it's the woman that wants to abort and the man that wants the child.. Are you suggesting a law that would put the wants of a man over that of a woman's own body and well being?? (Sounds like someone is reverting back a few centuries)

 

[Thales750]

Not really. If she opts to have an abortion and the man doesn't want it, then yes, that would be true. But in the reverse scenario, there are thousands upon thousands of cases where the men just up and leave. So in fact, no it is not the case. Biologically, men have it easy, we were given a free pass to stay or go. Don't sign the birth certificate... done and done.

Now you listed of what the woman should have to do in the event the father doesn't want the child.... what if it's the woman that wants to abort and the man that wants the child.. Are you suggesting a law that would put the wants of a man over that of a woman's own body and well being?? (Sounds like someone is reverting back a few centuries)

No actually I'm not. I have presented this scenario, as yet another reason why contraceptives are so important.

A single act can destroy lives. People should not drink and drive and they should be very careful about unprotected sex.

 

[Access_guy49]

Condoms can puncture, or be defective. What then?
What if the woman wishes to abort and the man doesn't? who's rights are more important?
The woman with the risk to her own life? Or the man's right even though he has no personal risk involved with his need or want?

 

[Thales750]

Condoms can puncture, or be defective. What then?
What if the woman wishes to abort and the man doesn't? who's rights are more important?
The woman with the risk to her own life? Or the man's right even though he has no personal risk involved with his need or want?

I'm not making any assertion other than men are not counted at all, except to pay child support.

Obviously the system has failed and no one has proposed anything better. I think incarceration into the penal system is highly flawed and should be replaced by some kind of work program.

 

[Access_guy49]

I would say that the men are counted as much as should be expected given their level of participation/risk in the birthing process.

If a man wants the baby, and the woman doesn't, I think it's fair enough that most people would agree that a law giving the man the right to force a woman to term would be unacceptable.

If a woman wants the baby and a man doesn't... Well the woman accepted the risk during intercourse, the man should have as well... so it would make sense that his opinion no longer counts.

I will however agree that the system has failed. In multiple aspects, men who don't pay and can often get away with it. Men who can't pay and go to jail for it, and men who get taken to the cleaners because they can easily afford to care for a child, and as such courts award huge amounts of money in child support that end up paying for mother and child. To me that is just as bad, but that is all a legal fairness of payment system that needs to be re-adjusted, and has very little to do with legalities of aborition or the governments decision on capitol punishment (As per the origins of this thread)

 

[Thales750]

I would say that the men are counted as much as should be expected given their level of participation/risk in the birthing process.

If a man wants the baby, and the woman doesn't, I think it's fair enough that most people would agree that a law giving the man the right to force a woman to term would be unacceptable.

If a woman wants the baby and a man doesn't... Well the woman accepted the risk during intercourse, the man should have as well... so it would make sense that his opinion no longer counts.

I will however agree that the system has failed. In multiple aspects, men who don't pay and can often get away with it. Men who can't pay and go to jail for it, and men who get taken to the cleaners because they can easily afford to care for a child, and as such courts award huge amounts of money in child support that end up paying for mother and child. To me that is just as bad, but that is all a legal fairness of payment system that needs to be re-adjusted, and has very little to do with legalities of aborition or the governments decision on capitol punishment (As per the origins of this thread)

Threads evolve and there is no answer to the divine.

 

[Access_guy49]

Threads evolve and there is no answer to the divine.

HAHAHA, too true, well put!

But I guess that's why no politician has come up with a better solution to child support hu?? Too bad they spend all their time on facebook and solitair! (Reference to an email i received today showing a picture of members of parliment in Ontario i think, playing on FB and Solitair and checking sports scores when they should be working...)

 

[Vassago]

HAHAHA, too true, well put!

But I guess that's why no politician has come up with a better solution to child support hu?? Too bad they spend all their time on facebook and solitair! (Reference to an email i received today showing a picture of members of parliment in Ontario i think, playing on FB and Solitair and checking sports scores when they should be working...)

Reminds me of the photo that was shot by the AP during a Congressional hearing here in the states that shows multiple people playing cards on their laptops.

http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/solitaire.asp

Is that the picture you are speaking of? It's actually US Congress, hard at work.

 

[Adam Caramon]

Is that the picture you are speaking of? It's actually US Congress, hard at work.

Actually, its just the Connecticut House of Representatives according to the article you linked. It wouldn't suprise me greatly if there were individual congress persons in the US Congress that did the same, though.

 

[Thales750]

Actually, its just the Connecticut House of Representatives according to the article you linked. It wouldn't suprise me greatly if there were individual congress persons in the US Congress that did the same, though.

Watching video games would be a marked improvement over their current accomplishments.

 

[Access_guy49]

For the hundereds of thousands a year some of these guys make.. I would kick some serious video game ass!!!! I'll gladly sit and play cards all day and everyone once and a while go "hu... what? we get a pay raise? Ya i'll vote in favor....Hey did you see this on my friends wall...."