Mitt Romney VS President Obama

It said in the papers here that old mitt said that poor peoples views don't count and that he wouldn't do anything to help them. ... Do you really want him as your president?l
The "left" has taken that quote, mis-characterized it, and successfully blown it out of proportion. Essentially, the "left", like the Imams in the Muslim world, has successfully inflamed the mob.

Romney was essentially expressing a tactical decision, he knows that a certain segment of the population will not have an interest in voting for him. Therefore, devoting resources to entice that segment to vote for him would be unproductive.

The Washington Post even had some nice graphic that demonstrated that the poor, woman, Hispanics, and blacks had a propensity to vote for the Democrats. Romney's remarks were an acknowledgement of this propensity.

Additionally, many of those fanning the flames of outrage purposely distorted the "tax" issue. Essentially there are two types of "taxes", 1) an income tax and 2) a payroll tax that is really a (forced) contribution to social security. The "left", even though the poor may not pay an income tax, loudly proclaim that the poor are still somehow facing a repressive tax burden; not bothering to acknowledge that this faux repressive "tax" burden really is a retirement contribution that the person gets back when he or she retires.

Also look at many typical media headlines which read along the lines: "What must Republicans do to attract the votes of ...." or "The Democrats attract the votes of woman because .... ". Even the media, indirectly, acknowledges that Romney lacks appeal in various demographic groups. Yet they have used Romney's comments to denigrate him for acknowledging the obvious.

In terms of who should be elected President, we have a choice between two "evils". Obama's "bread and circuses" or Romney's proposed restoration of failed Republican economic policies.
 
The "left" has taken that quote, mis-characterized it, and successfully blown it out of proportion. Essentially, the "left", like the Imams in the Muslim world, has successfully inflamed the mob.

Very poor analogy. Are you really trying to compare the media surrounding Mitt Romney's statements to the actions of religious extremists that caused American deaths? You can say they mis-characterised, that it is not right, etc, but I think you're stepping over a line of decency when you make a comparison such as you have. Your posts, while I don't always agree with them, are usually very factual with links to your sources. You're better than the above quote.

Romney was essentially expressing a tactical decision, he knows that a certain segment of the population will not have an interest in voting for him. Therefore, devoting resources to entice that segment to vote for him would be unproductive.

And that's fine, but when he specifically said 47%, and that 47% is a well-known figure that represents everyone that does not pay income tax, then it is hard to shrug off the connotations. Had he just said "There is a large group of Americans that will not vote for me, because they are dependent on government", there wouldn't be a problem. Heck, I think we need to have that conversation as a country. But the way he did it lacked tact, and would be an embarrassment if it was uttered by a sitting president.


The Washington Post even had some nice graphic that demonstrated that the poor, woman, Hispanics, and blacks had a propensity to vote for the Democrats. Romney's remarks were an acknowledgement of this propensity.

It is no secret that Democrats tend to favor the middle & poor class, while Republicans favor the upper class. The majority of poor, Hispanics, and blacks fall in these two segments that Democrats represent. That should not be a shock. Again, it is not that Romney said it, it is the way that he said it.

Additionally, many of those fanning the flames of outrage purposely distorted the "tax" issue. Essentially there are two types of "taxes", 1) an income tax and 2) a payroll tax that is really a (forced) contribution to social security. The "left", even though the poor may not pay an income tax, loudly proclaim that the poor are still somehow facing a repressive tax burden; not bothering to acknowledge that this faux repressive "tax" burden really is a retirement contribution that the person gets back when he or she retires.

Where do Democrats claim that the poor are facing a "repressive tax"? You seem to be taking on the mantle of Rush Limbaugh or Glenn Beck and blowing everything up to absurd proportions.

Taxes are a part of life. Income tax, payroll tax, sales taxes, etc. When someone says "These people pay no taxes, they're irresponsible and will never be convinced that they are the problem", that is a very derogatory comment. Especially when you realize that these people do pay payroll taxes and sales taxes. Your rationale regarding payroll tax very well may have some merit (assuming that by the time these people paying payroll taxes would benefit from the programs they are funding are still around).

But what about sales taxes? Are you going to try to claim that sales taxes that poor people pay don't matter? Romney essentially called all of these people losers that are living off of everyone else. That is highly offensive.

In terms of who should be elected President, we have a choice between two "evils". Obama's "bread and circuses" or Romney's proposed restoration of failed Republican economic policies.

There is never going to be a candidate that is going to come along and satisfy your requirements unless you trust them. Some people trust President Obama, some don't. I think when you weigh the positives versus the negatives, President Obama is clearly the better choice.

But as Vassago has said in the past, why not cast your vote for Gary Johnson? You seem to be more in lockstep with the Libertarian viewpoint based on your previous comments.
 
47% want the government to provide healthcare.
And thats a bad thing.

Scary - very scary.
 
But as Vassago has said in the past, why not cast your vote for Gary Johnson? You seem to be more in lockstep with the Libertarian viewpoint based on your previous comments.
Quite true, that is what I intend to do. I am not quite in full lockstep with the Libertarian point of view. I don't have an issue with "big" government supporting environmental efforts, consumer protection, or promoting a competitive level-playing field. Overall, I agree that government has gotten too large and that government needs to be shrunk.
 
Quite true, that is what I intend to do. I am not quite in full lockstep with the Libertarian point of view. I don't have an issue with "big" government supporting environmental efforts, consumer protection, or promoting a competitive level-playing field. Overall, I agree that government has gotten too large and that government needs to be shrunk.


Why not emigrate?
 
But what about sales taxes? Are you going to try to claim that sales taxes that poor people pay don't matter? Romney essentially called all of these people losers that are living off of everyone else. That is highly offensive.
Sales tax is NOT a concept that is on the table in this debate. Raising the sales tax issue helps make my point concerning how this whole topic gets distorted to the point of obfuscation. Let me refer you to this Washington Post editorial: "Mr. Romney’s ‘47 percent’ fantasy"

"There is a wisp of a serious argument in Mr. Romney’s comments bemoaning the half of the country that pays no income tax. Conservatives have worried for years that Americans who don’t pay taxes have no incentive to restrain spending. Government payments to individuals have risen dramatically, and beneficiaries become an interest group that makes reform of health and pension programs difficult."(emphasis added)

Now read the text below from the editorial and note how it makes the transition to asserting that "only a tenth of the Americans pay no federal tax". Again, the payroll tax is actually a contribution to a persons social security retirement and is NOT a tax to fund government operations.

"But here’s why it’s only a wisp. Of the 47 percent of Americans who pay no federal income tax, two-thirds pay federal payroll tax. Most of them aren’t making a lot of money; a couple with two children has to earn less than $26,400 to pay no income tax. Altogether, only a tenth of Americans pay no federal tax, and most who pay neither income nor payroll tax are retirees."(emphasis added)

The Post editorial essentially concludes with:
"Mr. Romney’s vision of the country, in other words, is a fantasy. He believes that 47 percent of Americans “are dependent upon government . . . believe the government has a responsibility to care for them . . . that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you-name-it.” This is dramatically out of touch with how hard most middle-class people work and how hard they find it to make ends meet. Half of all American households — households, not individuals — earn $50,000 or less, and the official poverty line for a family of four is a meager $23,021."
The Post had some graphics (a while back) that reviewed how much some people receive in tax credits or outright monetary payments. Factually, if you are receiving tax credits, food stamps, receive "free" medical care, or other forms of monetary compensation you are "dependent". That is not to say that being "dependent" is bad, after all that is what the "safety net" is supposed to be about.

And as both the Post and Romney note, there is little incentive for the underprivileged to vote for Romney.
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Since posting I ran across this opinion piece: "Does Romney’s ‘47 percent’ video show the real Mitt?"

Mr. Stromberg writes:
"But the video is just as easily — probably more easily — seen as another example of how inauthentic Romney often seems. Romney was not speaking to a group of close friends; he was at a fundraiser in a hedge-fund manager’s Florida home. That’s an audience primed to feel as though the government captures too much of the wealth they create in order to support Americans who do not apply their abilities as usefully. Moreover, the footage dates to May 17, just as Romney was emerging from a primary season in which complaining that half of Americans do not pay income taxes was a common, if ideologically confusing, applause line among the uber-conservative also-rans who each threatened Romney at various times during the race."(emphasis added)
I was unaware that the footage was that old.

A video clip of Romney's remarks are contained in the following Post opinion piece: "Mitt Romney trashes the 47 percent"
 
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You shouldn't have a double negative, it should be -

A) our dollar is worth nothing.

Or b) our dollar is not worth anything anymore.

Col

Thanks for pointing that out
 
Sales tax is NOT a concept that is on the table in this debate.

You do not get to choose what is "on the table". When someone makes such a blanket statement of 47% of the people don't pay taxes, are dependent on government, won't take responsibility for them self, then it deserves to be scorned.

I'm not saying Mitt Romney is unintelligent and was trying to claim that these 47% do not contribute at all to the government. By reading the transcript of the tape, it is clear that he is referring to income tax.

My point is that when he connects a dot and a square between "47% of people don't pay (income) tax" to "are dependent on government, won't take responsibility for them self", that is wrong. He's insinuating that these people are parasites leeching off of the government and not giving anything back. I'm saying that is wrong, and that sales tax is one example of how these people are contributing to the government. Would you claim that GE, when it had a net tax liability of 0%, was "dependent on government, won't take responsibility for its self?"

The Post had some graphics (a while back) that reviewed how much some people receive in tax credits or outright monetary payments. Factually, if you are receiving tax credits, food stamps, receive "free" medical care, or other forms of monetary compensation you are "dependent". That is not to say that being "dependent" is bad, after all that is what the "safety net" is supposed to be about.

Republicans have turned "dependent" into a four-letter word. It is code for "minority leeching off of public funds". Do we think Mitt Romney was referring to soldiers or senior citizens that worked all of their life and paid into the system? Of course not.

That aside, if Mitt Romney had simply said "47% of the people are dependent on government, it is going to be very difficult to get them to vote against receiving governmental benefits", that would not be a problem. Again, we need to have that conversation as a country.

Who actually needs governmental support, and who doesn't? Should a particular mental disorder entitle someone to Social Security funds? What sorts of checks and balances are in place to keep people on governmental support honest? These are all worthwhile questions, and a vast majority of Americans would support these inquiries.

But this is not what Mitt Romney said. You can only rely on a lack of elegance for so long before it becomes apparent that it is not his oratory skills in question, but his actual worldview.

And as both the Post and Romney note, there is little incentive for the underprivileged to vote for Romney.

You seem to be trying to change the conversation. If you're defending these comments, your message is going to be tainted. If you want to start an actual conversation about governmental benefits (which is clearly an area of concern for you based on the number of times you have referred to "bread and circuses"), who deserves them, etc, then do so. You don't need to use the Mitt Romney gaffe publicity to move the conversation forward.
 
Adam, thanks for the detailed replies. You are correct that we need a discussion on defining "Who actually needs governmental support, and who doesn't?"

We also need a discussion on what this country can afford in terms of contributing to a "safety net". This country has been running huge deficits and the National debt is growing. In determining what this Country can afford, in terms of supporting the safety net, we need to balance the budget through both tax increases and cuts to spending. We have been living beyond our means. Time to put an end to that.

And with great effort, I will stop typing.
 
Romney has been running a very disingenuous political add. I ran across a review of this add by Josh Hicks in his Washington Post article: "Another misleading China ad from Mitt Romney". This article embeds a video of the add, "Fewer Americans are working today".

I find this add to be disingenuous for two reasons.
1) The US is playing the same "game" as China. When the US gives "incentives" to a business that is a subsidy that effectively encourages "unfair" competition on the part of US companies. Consequently we have no moral ground on which to claim that China is somehow being "unfair".
2) Romney is a Republican. The Republican mantra is: "government out of the private sector" and less regulation. Yet Romney is proposing that the Government take an active regulatory role in protecting the private sector of the US from claimed "unfair" foreign competition. Free-trade means free-trade, the Government should not be establishing barriers to trade.
 
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In the UK, the papers have been saying that if Romney is made president he would be even worse that George Bush.
Is this true? I can see that voting someone in whose first name is a type of glove is stupid but is there more to it?

Let's just hope that whoever gets in can sort out the economy. It may help us all if trade is more fluid.

In the UK we have a right bunch of losers in power. For example, they are cutting benefits and targeting old and disabled people with cuts, yet we send 400 million pounds to India every year in aid money, yet India ( being rich) sends 350 million pounds in aid to other countries. Where's the logic?

Col
 
The logic for most politicians is self-preservation. Not for their country, but for themselves. Their financial backers likely want them to continue the aid to India, so that is what they do. Obamney is no different. Republicrats will continue voting for their politicians like puppets on strings on their hands, who in turn are nothing but puppets to the financial backers, banks, and media organizations that support them so they will pass laws that benefit them the most.
 
The BBC said that whoever spends the most millions on their campaign will win irrespective of what the American people really want.

A true democracy?

Col
 
The BBC said that whoever spends the most millions on their campaign will win irrespective of what the American people really want.

A true democracy?

Col

Unfortunately, that can be true in many ways with so much corporate money involved.

However, a true democracy? No. By definition, we are not a democracy. We are a republic.
 
On the BBC news last night they said that whoever wins Ohio will be the next president.

How does that work? And why do non Ohio people bother voting? How can one state be the decider?

Col
 
Its part of bigger flaw Col. The obvious fix is to not start counting votes until all the pols are closed. By the time the west coast votes a big part of the votes are published...

Didn't we go over this several years ago :banghead:
 
The same can be argued with states that are predominately one party that never stray. Those electoral votes will always go for that party based on that logic, so why should anyone else from any other party vote?

I'm voting third party this year to set a standard. I'm no longer going to vote for the "lesser of two evils" or just to get another candidate out of office. I'm going to vote for the person I believe can get the job done. The person with a proven track record, something Romney and Obama do not have. Gary Johnson, during his time as governor, balanced his state's budget, was credited for producing tens of thousands of jobs, and eliminated 1200 government jobs, without firing anyone. That's a pretty proven record IMO.
 
It's been calculated that the cost of the Obama and Romney campaigns cost $2billion.

Imagine that for a moment, $2billion !!!

I know that it is not cheap but bloody hell, that is incredible. Money well spent?

Col
 

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