Attack on Israel (4 Viewers)

[Steve R.]

You seem to be living in a dream world thinking that because their population has grown, genocide did not occur. If Israel would've just targeted Hamas, that would've been understandable, but they killed many thousands of innocent civilians and Israel will suffer the consequences, and they know this.

Playing word obfuscation games, Hamas and the so-called "innocent civilians" are indistinguishable. Where are the "innocent civilians" protesting the atrocities of Hamas and demanding that the hostages be released and for Hamas to surrender?

 

[The_Doc_Man]

If Israel would've just targeted Hamas, that would've been understandable, but they killed many thousands of innocent civilians and Israel will suffer the consequences, and they know this.

Hamas hides behind their civilians, putting their encampments and working areas to maximize civilian exposure. If YOU would just understand THAT fact, you might recognize that the Gazans are involuntary martyrs for Hamas. To Hamas, the primary motivational statement would seem to be "You can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs."

 

[Isaac]

Cruelty in deportation? By that do you refer to some inherent cruelty in actually going through with the deportation? Are you talking about violence if someone resist arrest? If you mean the former, what's wrong with enforcing existing laws that have already been passed that say if you are here illegally, you have to leave or be escorted? If you mean the latter, resisting arrest or attempting to evade are both valid grounds for using a bit more force. Did you have something else in mind?

I know that Trump has asked for some military judges to help speed along due process by doubling the number of immigration proceedings. Making justice less delayed isn't bad either. Isaac, if you have some insider info, great - but I have to ask what is cruel about requiring people to obey a federal law regarding immigration violations?

Uhh God, doc, I have not the strength to begin typing it here, if you listen to literally ANY news source other than Fox, you can find 100's of examples of cruelty in deportation. Actually, Fox has started reporting it too. Leaving children unattended, deporting to odd countries, rounding up 100's on 4th amendment violations that the supreme court is about to knock him back on, rounding up 100's that include citizens and permanent residents and holding them for weeks in deplorable conditions without access to lawyers or family, the list goes on and on.

I support legal deportation, but ya gotta follow the law - you gotta do it right, man. Else you're NO different than the guy you're pickin up.

 

[Isaac]

You seem to be living in a dream world thinking that because their population has grown, genocide did not occur. If Israel would've just targeted Hamas, that would've been understandable, but they killed many thousands of innocent civilians and Israel will suffer the consequences, and they know this.

Honestly Israel doesn't seem to be smart enough to realize this ... Else they wouldn't have just done something that literally CREATED 10's of 1000's of more terrorists....to haunt none other than themselves for the next 100 years.

 

[BlueSpruce]

Honestly Israel doesn't seem to be smart enough to realize this ... Else they wouldn't have just done something that literally CREATED 10's of 1000's of more terrorists....to haunt none other than themselves for the next 100 years.

And Israel now did a bombing attack in Qatar, a sovereign Arab Nation that's a close U.S. Ally. This is going to haunt Israel, as several Arab Nations are going to retaliate in unthinkable ways.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

I support legal deportation, but ya gotta follow the law - you gotta do it right, man. Else you're NO different than the guy you're pickin up.

Given the rogue judges we have seen who want to intervene in what is essentially an item of national jurisdiction only, I agree - SOMEONE has to follow the law. But at the moment I've got misgivings about being able to follow the law when rogue judges are involved. Based on some of their rulings, which I think verge on insane, I have to wonder what the law really is. No, I'm not an anarchist. I'm a confusedist.

 

[Pat Hartman]

What Israel has done to the Palestinians is mass genocide.

So, what part of "kill the Jews" in the Palestinian constitution isn't a call for genocide? What part of "from the river to the sea" isn't a call for genocide? What part of "Death to the Jews, Death to America" isn't a call for genocide? What part of teaching your children to count by counting dead Jews isn't teaching your children to continue the genocide of fJews?

You might want to get your head out of that place where the sun doesn't shine and see reality. It is the Palestinians who are trying to annihilate the Jews.

Since Hamas, you know, that terrorist orginization that is dropping bombs on Israeli CIVILIANS daily, is the one specifically charged with killing all the Jews, Israel retaliates. But, apparently you don't know this, but Hamas surrounds itself with civilians so that in order to kill terrorists, Israel has to kill at least a few civilians. When Israel sends warning of an impending attack, does Hamas allow the civilians to evacuate? Not a chance. Hamas needs the civilians as cannon fodder.

And yet you stand up for Palestine. You take the side of the animals of Hamas. Maybe you should watch some of the film from the Oct 7th attack. Think about your wife or daughter with blood covering their back ends being dragged off to endure more of the same treatment. Yep, Hamas is sure worth defending You need to look inside yourself and then justify why you think it is the Palestinians are the ones you should defend. Maybe put your ingrained antisemitism aside.

 

[Pat Hartman]

And Israel now did a bombing attack in Qatar

As you sit in judgement of Israel, please tell me you have no idea that the US has conducted very similar attacks against terrorists in multiple countries around the world. And just recently we started blowing drug running boats to kingdom come as they cross the Caribbean bringing their death to our shores. We've also attacked the "elected" leaders of sovereign countries in their own homes. Let us not forget Clinton's attempt to take out Gadhafi which didn't kill Gadhafi but did kill at least one of his children and possibly wives also.

I am not condoning the action because of the danger to non-combatants but until Hamas is defeated, there will be no peace.

 

[Steve R.]

@BlueSpruce: As @Pat Hartman noted, you sit in judgement concerning Israel, but where is your outrage over Palestinians war crimes and the continued call for the Palestinians to commit genocide against Israel?

You have been highly critical of Israel actions, but you don't seem to acknowledge that the Palestinians continue to willingly promote conflict. Where are the Palestinians demanding that Hamas release the hostages and surrender? If the Palestinians are not interested in peace, but prefer continued conflict; the Israelis can't be criticized for their self-defense actions. The plight of the Palestinians is self-inflicted in their pursuit of achieving martyrdom.

 

[Isaac]

What does one have to do with the other? Ok, so Palestinians have called for genocide against Jews. I think everyone knows that.
But when someone says "Israel shouldn't commit genocide against Palestinians", surely you have some answer other than
"But that's what they wanted to do to us!"

Even if some (not all) Palestinians wanted to do that to the Jews, it's not the right response

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Ok, so Palestinians have called for genocide against Jews. I think everyone knows that.
But when someone says "Israel shouldn't commit genocide against Palestinians", surely you have some answer other than
"But that's what they wanted to do to us!"

This is a mischaracterization (to a certain degree) and thus is logically misleading.

I assume you would classify Hamas members as all or mostly Palestinians. Palestinians have called for genocide of the Jews. But the mischaracterization is to stop the argument there. But in fact, not only does Hamas MAKE that statement - but they acted on it and continue to do so. Actions speak FAR louder than words.

 

[Isaac]

It makes no difference to the point I'm making. It's still not the right thing to do in return, ESPECIALLY when not all Palestinians being affected wanted the extermination of Jews.
Frankly, I think most of them just wanted peace - although by NOW they may want the extermination of Jews, but can you blame them ?

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Frankly, I think most of them just wanted peace - although by NOW they may want the extermination of Jews, but can you blame them ?

You can make the same statement about the Israelis before the Oct. 7 attack. Can YOU blame the Israelis for saying "No more Mr. Nice Guy?"

It all comes down to the simple fact that the only way to get a berserker barbarian's attention (and I count Hamas as barbarians) is a shovel-slap to the face repeatedly until he willingly sits down for substantive dialog. Hamas is still standing.

There is an old saying, "It takes two to tango." It also takes TWO to stop a conflict. See, for example, Russia/Ukraine. See the problems in several African regions. See Israel against Hamas and others. They are still fighting because nobody wants to be the one to stop shooting first. To warrior types, that is a sign of weakness. You agree to stop fighting only when you know you can no longer make the OTHER party to your conflict stop first.

 

[Steve R.]

... but can you blame them ?

Yes you can. They did not resist the attack by Hamas on Israel. Furthermore, they even joined the attack. Then there is the issue of the hostages. If the "innocent" civilians wanted to stop the war, they potentially could have informed Israel about the location of the hostages. Seems that didn't happen. And as I have stated before: Where are the Palestinians marching and advocating for peace? Their silence implies they want the conflict to continue.

Edit using cellphone. Pardon any mistakes. Consider these two points. 1) There are protests in Israel to end the conflict, but not in Gaza. 2) Outside agitators, such as Greta Thunberg, are protesting against Israel not for peace. That encourages the Palestinians to continue fighting instead of seeking peace. The Palestinians are to blame.

 

[Pat Hartman]

"Israel shouldn't commit genocide against Palestinians",

Israel is not committing genocide. I don't know where you get your information. Hamas attacks civilian targets in Israel on a daily basis. How is Israel to stop this perpetual attack? By your logic, they should not shoot back. How does that make any sense at all? You seem to expect the Jews to just lie down and die.

"But that's what they wanted to do to us!"

No one who knows anything about this conflict has said that. The Jews have tried their best to make peace. They have released THOUSANDS of Palestinian prisoners in good faith. What do they get in return? More bombs targeting playgrounds. Maybe you would allow your children to be targets for Hamas' irrational hatred but Israel isn't going to take this perpetual assault laying down.

The Palestinian civilians elected Hamas to govern them. They voted for the charter that calls for Hamas to kill all the jews. They knew what they were voting for. They publish the primers that teach their children how to count by counting dead Jews. If the Palestinians wanted peace, they could have it TODAY. As Steve pointed out, there are a number of things they could do to show their willingness to end the killing. At this point there is no question that the Palestinian civilians are in this battle to the death. The sympathy I had for the Palestinians evaporated on Oct 7th. They are animals. They will not stop the killing until they are all dead. This is a function of Islam which promises them martyrdom for killing non believers in the battle of Islamic conquest. Just remember that no other Arab country will accept them as refugees and Egypt went to the trouble of building a wall to keep these barbarians out of Egypt. The neighboring countries are quite aware of the damage the Palestinians have done to Jordan, Lebanon, and Kuwait to name just three of the countries who willingly took refugees after previous wars with Israel.

The Jews are not the bad guys in this conflict. It was started by the Palestinians and they have broken every cease fire that has been negotiated. And they are still torturing hostages. Think of your wife and mother and daughter as their hostage. Ask them if they'd rather die than be assaulted every day for more than two years.

If you knew anything about history, you would know that Israel left Gaza to their own devices ~ 2004. So Gaza has been totally self governing for 20+ years. They have received billions in aid over the years. Have they used that aid to benefit the residents? NO. They use the monetary aid to buy rockets and they sell the food to the civilians and use the profits to buy rockets. Gaza could be the Singapore of the Med by now but no, Hamas has made Gaza a he**hole. You are on the wrong side of history when you support Hamas.

 

[BlueSpruce]

What does one have to do with the other? Ok, so Palestinians have called for genocide against Jews. I think everyone knows that.
But when someone says "Israel shouldn't commit genocide against Palestinians", surely you have some answer other than
"But that's what they wanted to do to us!"

Even if some (not all) Palestinians wanted to do that to the Jews, it's not the right response

This is exactly the point I am making! Two wrongs don't make a right. Israel exacted vengeful disproportionate genocide of all Palestinians and now more than a billion enraged Muslims are more united than ever in seeking retribution. I see the United States distancing itself from Israel.

 

[Isaac]

This is exactly the point I am making! Two wrongs don't make a right. Israel exacted vengeful disproportionate genocide of all Palestinians and now more than a billion enraged Muslims are more united than ever in seeking retribution. I see the United States distancing itself from Israel.

that's a pretty good summary.
and for other people reading this, we can all debate all day over the precise meaning of 'genocide', but just substitute whatever word you feel more confident in - whatever they did, it was horribly and awfully disproportionate and totally wrong. now they will have trouble lying in the bed they made......unless that's what they were after, to have an excuse to go to war with 10+ countries

 

[Isaac]

Yes you can. They did not resist the attack by Hamas on Israel. Furthermore, they even joined the attack. Then there is the issue of the hostages. If the "innocent" civilians wanted to stop the war, they potentially could have informed Israel about the location of the hostages. Seems that didn't happen. And as I have stated before: Where are the Palestinians marching and advocating for peace? Their silence implies they want the conflict to continue.

Edit using cellphone. Pardon any mistakes. Consider these two points. 1) There are protests in Israel to end the conflict, but not in Gaza. 2) Outside agitators, such as Greta Thunberg, are protesting against Israel not for peace. That encourages the Palestinians to continue fighting instead of seeking peace. The Palestinians are to blame.

they can't march for peace, they're captives

 

[The_Doc_Man]

This is exactly the point I am making! Two wrongs don't make a right. Israel exacted vengeful disproportionate genocide of all Palestinians and now more than a billion enraged Muslims are more united than ever in seeking retribution. I see the United States distancing itself from Israel.

Two wrongs don't make a right. But two mortal enemies DO make a war.

When you have a declared war, you expect casualties. Israel's enemy has vowed to eliminate all Israelis out of religious hatred. "From the river to the sea" is their geographic description of where they will execute their enemies.

This talk of "disproportionate genocide" is a turn of phrase that doesn't match the facts. If the IDF wanted genocide, they have the means to carpet bomb the stuffing out of Gaza, to turn it to a crushed-concrete parking lot, and do that without warning anyone. Surely that would have killed all the civilians. But they haven't done that.

If more than a billion Muslims are enraged, then Hamas got what they wanted by hiding behind civilians and gathering in other countries - like Qatar, Iraq, Jordan, and a few other likely suspects. And you bought into that deflection staged by Hamas?

 

[Steve R.]

This is exactly the point I am making! Two wrongs don't make a right. Israel exacted vengeful disproportionate genocide of all Palestinians and now more than a billion enraged Muslims are more united than ever in seeking retribution. I see the United States distancing itself from Israel.

Wrong. Non-Muslims in the Middle East are an endangered species. The Islamist have been waging war against the West for years and have been winning. The Palestinians, never offer peace, they proclaim genocide against Israel and keep attacking. Where are the Palestinians offers for "peace"? There are none. Why is Gaza an armed camp with a massive tunnel network? That does not imply that they desire peace. At best we have gone from one cease-fire to another always broken by aggressive Palestinians. Israel is defending the West.

As a sad aside: Where has the UN been? The UN, as supposed peacekeepers, should have disarmed Hamas and Hezbollah. They didn't. That means that the supposed peacekeepers allowed terrorists to arm themselves to endlessly attack Israel.