Attack on Israel

[AccessBlaster]

That that is WHY there will never be peace in the middle East: The rightful heir to Abraham cannot be resolved, so here we are.

I've never read the Bible

You had me fooled, that first that first quote sounded very convincing. BTW, I've reading the Bible on Kindal, who knew Genesis had 50 chapters, oh boy!

 

[NauticalGent]

You had me fooled, that first that first quote sounded very convincing.

My father and I were shooting pool one day and I mentioned something about the conflict over there - I couldnt have been more than 25 yrs old. He looked at me and said "Do you know WHY this shit-story will never have a happy ending?" I replied "no" and he went on to explain the whole Isaac/Sarah, Hagar/Ishmael and Abraham FUBAR.

I had forgotten that at one time before be become agnostic, he had gone to bible college to become a Seventh Day Adventist preacher.

BTW, I've reading the Bible on Kindal, who knew Genesis had 50 chapters, oh boy!

I could never get past all the "begats"

 

[Pat Hartman]

History is written by the victors, and the way you’re telling it makes it sound like Israel’s never done anything wrong.

They did make a big mistake in 1948 and that led ultimately to this displacement of the Palestinians but they are less to blame than the UN and the rest of the world.

Lots of the problems of the Middle East originate from the Treaty of Versailles at the end of WWI where some idiot drew random lines and made new countries that collected people who would never coexist peacefully. One of those random lines created the Palestinian Mandate out of what was once a province in the Ottoman Empire called "Palestine" and that is the origin of the label "Palestine" to the area. It goes back a few hundred years at best, not THOUSANDS the way the Jewish history from the bible (as history) does. Over the years parts of the territory were sectioned off into trans Jordan, Syria, etc. and then we get to the final division in 1948.

During WWII, the High Mufti of Jerusalem was good buddies with Hitler. They were colluding on how to implement the final solution in the Middle East after Germany won the war. Then in 1948 when it became clear that the Britts were going to ignore the Arab demands and not turn the whole territory over to the Arabs, the Mufti started riling up the Muslim residents and convinced them that if they stayed, the Jews would persecute them. So the diaspora started. The Arabs WILLINGLY abandoned their homes and businesses and fled to the surrounding Arab countries. Then the war of independence ended, it was short but Gaza now belonged to Egypt instead of the Palestinians and Samaria and Judea now belonged to Jordan. These two provinces became known as the West Bank (of the Jordan River). The Jews didn't protect the Arab lands but I think it did take back part of Jerusalem (not clear if it was then or later).

The Arabs lobbied the world about their victimhood and how they were all refugees and it was Israel's fault. Israel did expel a small number of Arabs at this time because they were actively fighting Israel. So now we have dozens of refugee camps in all the surrounding countries holding hundreds of thousands (now millions) of people. MANY OF WHICH STILL EXIST TO THIS DAY!!! I think the remaining number is 89. Due to the way the Arabs viewed citizenship, these displaced persons could NEVER become citizens. So, unlike other wars which settled nationality when the fighting stopped by which side of the line you ended up on, all the people who ended up in Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, etc. were now people without a country and that is how this whole mess started. I believe that at some point the UN got involved and since Israel was hated even then, made a special refugee category so that the Palestinians could NEVER be absorbed. So today we have two refugee organizations administered by the UN. One is specially for "Palestinians". The UN wanted the world to pressure Israel to take all the dp's back and they felt that they could keep the pressure on Israel until they caved. How wrong they were.

When the dust cleared after the war, many of the Arabs who left voluntarily wanted to return and Israel said no. I understand their point. Their country was extremely fragile and they really didn't need enemies within. So, I think this was their biggest mistake. If they had allowed at least some of the people to come back, they might have integrated as the ones who didn't abandon their homes did. But, again, Israel may have been right to not let them return. It was certainly the UN who perpetuated the countrylessness of the Palestinians. They have gone generations without a country and their children are also countryless. If the UN had said - where you are is your nationality which is the way wars always used to work, this debacle would have settled down decades ago because the Palestinians would have integrated into their new country and the wounds would have healed. Keeping them countryless kept an oozing sore that still hasn't healed and that is by design.

The Palestinians are blaming the wrong people. They should be blaming Egypt and Jordan for taking "Palestine" away from them in 1948. The Jews didn't do this to them. Their own people did this to them out of group hatred of the Jews.

PS, the bible was written thousands of years before Mohammad came out of the desert and started spouting the word of God and created Islam. A more logical reason for the Muslim hatred of the Jews (the hatred goes one way) is the Jew's (and Christian's) rejection of Mohammad as a prophet from God. The Qur'an was originally written in chronological order instead of today's version which is organized by the length of each Surah with the shortest ones being first. If you read it in chronological order, you get to see Mohamad's feelings toward Jews and Christians sour over the years until he goes from peace and love and we're all people of the Book and ends up wanting to kill all non-believers.

 

[AccessBlaster]

Saying Israel has a sketchy past doesn't make you an antisemite. There are tons of Jews who disagree with their government.

 

[NauticalGent]

I hear what you’re saying, Pat, and you’ve clearly thought a lot about the history. Sure, the UN, the neighboring Arab states, and drawn borders all played a role, and yes, Jewish history in the region goes back thousands of years.

But calling the Palestinian exodus “voluntary” misses the fear, displacement, and trauma people actually lived through. Israel made choices to protect itself, no doubt, but generations of refugees and stateless people tell another part of the story.

I’ve said my piece — neither of us is likely to change the other’s mind, but I respect that you’ve laid out your view. I have spent WAY more brain matter on this thread then I intended to.

 

[Pat Hartman]

Also, if you're going to blame Israel for not compensating the refugees for their abandoned property, look into what happened to Christian and Jewish property in the 50 years before the war when countries like Iraq wee purging their countries of non-believers. Those refugees didn't even have a choice, their property was seized and they were expelled.

 

[Steve R.]

Yes, Hamas commits terrorism, but punishing every Palestinian for the choices of armed groups isn’t justice — it’s collective punishment, and it keeps the conflict alive.

What tends to be overlooked in this conversation, it is up to the Palestinians to overthrow Hamas. Where are the Palestinians calling for an end to the conflict and recognizing Israel?

 

[Pat Hartman]

But calling the Palestinian exodus “voluntary” misses the fear, displacement, and trauma people actually lived through. Israel made choices to protect itself, no doubt, but generations of refugees and stateless people tell another part of the story.

That's why I said that not letting the people who ran for their lives return was probably a mistake. But what happened to those people afterward is on the heads of the UN and the countries of the world who went along with the Arab plan to wear the Jews down. THEY are the ones who prevented the Palestinians from ever having peace.

Remember, the people who fled had never been attacked and most had had friendly relationships with their Jewish neighbors. It was their religious leaders who lied to them and convinced them to flee, not some imminent threat from their neighbors.

Why does no one ever blame Egypt and Jordan for stealing "Palestine" from the people the Britts gave the land to? No one ever talks about that. And then ~ 2004 the Israelis gave them a second chance and they chose war rather than peace.

Israel has done small things here and there that I object to but the larger problems are self inflicted or inflicted by other Arab countries and Israel had no part of that.

A lot of this history I know because I studied it when we went to Kuwait and I spoke with people who knew the details of much of the issues first hand since it had only happened 30 years prior. Then later one of my best friends was the son of a family who was expelled from Iraq in the 30's. Their business and homes were stolen and they were lucky to escape with what they could carry. They ended up in China and had to escape to Australia from there when Japan invaded prior to WWII. My friend's wife was an Israeli so some of the history I got from her. And then there was my Coptic Christian friend whose family escaped from persecution in Egypt.

 

[Pat Hartman]

On that, we are perfectly aligned...

Why does that subtilty imply that the Jews have not negotiated in good faith? How many times should the Jews make peace so that Hamas can rearm and start the bombardment again? When are the remaining hostages going to be returned?

 

[Pat Hartman]

What tends to be overlooked in this conversation, it is up to the Palestinians to overthrow Hamas. Where are the Palestinians calling for an end to the conflict and recognizing Israel?

That is all it would take for a lasting peace. Hamas gone. A competent, peaceful government in place. But the Palestinians don't want peace. They want it all - From the River to the Sea.

Hamas thinks as long as they keep the hostages they can still win.

 

[Isaac]

Thanks Isaac, knowing your devotion to Christianity I understand how unpopular your statement could be in the circles I assume you are a part of.

Truth be told, I am inclined to side with Israel when I hear about what is going on over there, but I have to remind myself of the sources I am getting this from. Even though is may be correct, I am only getting one side.

I've been paying the price left and right, but I'm openly vocal nowadays about my opposition to about 40% of what Trump says and does these days, both off and on line. Start with cruelty in deportations and go from there, executive orders for things he has no legal power to do, take your pick there's dozens of problems these days. But yeah, I'm no blind supporter of Israel, they haven't been the noble party in power, just the party in power

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Cruelty in deportation? By that do you refer to some inherent cruelty in actually going through with the deportation? Are you talking about violence if someone resist arrest? If you mean the former, what's wrong with enforcing existing laws that have already been passed that say if you are here illegally, you have to leave or be escorted? If you mean the latter, resisting arrest or attempting to evade are both valid grounds for using a bit more force. Did you have something else in mind?

I know that Trump has asked for some military judges to help speed along due process by doubling the number of immigration proceedings. Making justice less delayed isn't bad either. Isaac, if you have some insider info, great - but I have to ask what is cruel about requiring people to obey a federal law regarding immigration violations?