Are you an atheist?

[ColinEssex]

I
However, "they" knew that they had to bide their time until they could swing public support for it. Anyway, 9/11 happened.

And Bush must have been absolutely delighted it happened, it gave him the backing of the people he needed. It was a Godsend - Bin Laden must be on his christmas card list forever.

Makes you wonder just 'how' convenient 11/9 actually was. . . . . .it was just at the right time for his invasion plans to be moved on.

Col

 

[Rich]

For the person who keeps asking that this thread be kept civil, that post is a disgrace.

What you post there is no more than religious bigotry (with totally unfounded basis). NO doubt the irony of which will be lost on you.

You imply the teaching in the catholic church was cos Jews mudered Jesus, Catholic support was and should be for the Nazis and genocide. Absolutely laughable that you think that true.

Its absolute tripe and puts you squarely in the idiot, bigot corner. I think that was civil enough in the circumstances! If that wasn't what you intended to write perhpas you would like to clarify your views.

Are you denying the fact that the Bible and it's followers do not blame Jews for the death of Jesus?

 

[Pauldohert]

Are you denying the fact that the Bible and it's followers do not blame Jews for the death of Jesus?

Is that what you meant to post?

 

[Rabbie]

For the person who keeps asking that this thread be kept civil, that post is a disgrace.

What you post there is no more than religious bigotry (with totally unfounded basis). NO doubt the irony of which will be lost on you.

You imply the teaching in the catholic church was cos Jews mudered Jesus, Catholic support was and should be for the Nazis and genocide. Absolutely laughable that you think that true.

Its absolute tripe and puts you squarely in the idiot, bigot corner. I think that was civil enough in the circumstances! If that wasn't what you intended to write perhpas you would like to clarify your views.

Paul, I was merely stating historical fact about the Catholic church's doctrine regarding the jews. I am aware that many catholics did not like this and in fact Pope Pius XI prepared an encyclical shortly before he died in 1939 to change this. However his successor, Pope Pius XII, did not issue this and it was not renounced until 1965. My point was not to imply that Catholics were being urged to support the nazi party. I did not say that and I did not mean that. What I was trying to say was that the cultural effects of this doctrine was to make it easier for some people to see the jews as a target for persecution.

I hope you will accept my apologies if I have inadvertently offended you. I am not anti-catholic and I feel that Pope John XXIII did a huge amount to restore confidence in the church

 

[Rich]

Is that what you meant to post?

Absolutely

 

[Pauldohert]

in the context of Nazi Germany and the tacit support of the Catholic Church for that regime

I accept that apology, but what did the above mean then?

 

[Rabbie]

I accept that apology, but what did the above mean then?

I was referring to the failure of Pius XII to condemn Hitler and Nazism. Many people both inside and outside the church felt he should have spoken out.

 

[Mike375]

I would like to know how Alisa, Rich and others get their information.

They have spent over 20 pages telling us that faith is not acceptable. But they must have faith in the media and various books. But how to they test them. Or is it a case of just picking which literature or news most suits their pre disposed position.

Alisa said Irag had no relationship to 9/11. How does she know that?

How can these people be so definite when they need to have faith in the word of others.

 

[Pauldohert]

I was referring to the failure of Pius XII to condemn Hitler and Nazism

It was the tacit support before, now its just failure to condemn. Its certainly possible to argue that more should have been done, just as its possible to argueable more should have been done by Switzerland, or the USA, or the UK or Ireland.

You don't choose to use your words to say they supported the Nazi regime though?

 

[Rabbie]

It was the tacit support before, now its just failure to condemn. Its certainly possible to argue that more should have been done, just as its possible to argueable more should have been done by Switzerland, or the USA, or the UK or Ireland.

You don't choose to use your words to say they supported the Nazi regime though?

Tacit support is just not speaking out to condemn. I feel you are little harsh on the UK. we did go to war specifically against Germany in 1939. I am not sure what more the UK could have done.

Switzerland did provide inspectors to ensure POWs on both sides were treated according to the Geneva convention. The USA only came into the war because of Pearl Harbour.

Ireland did not gain much credit from their behaviour. Their President, De Valera, actually went to sign the condolence book at the German Embassy in Dublin on the death of Hitler.

 

[Pauldohert]

Tacit support is just not speaking out to condemn.

Would be fine it was true and there was no reason for silence.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html

This certainly makes interesting reading, as does the link within of defenses of the pope.

What should he have done? And what would have been the conqeunces if he did?

More importantly what would you have done in his shoes?

Unleash the swiss guards with penknives?

 

[Rabbie]

Would be fine it was true and there was no reason for silence.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html

This certainly makes interesting reading, as does the link within of defenses of the pope.

What should he have done? And what would have been the conqeunces if he did?

More importantly what would you have done in his shoes?

Unleash the swiss guards with penknives?

I agree the link was very interesting and informative. It certainly puts him in a better light than some other ones I have read. It is also clear that the future John XXIII did a lot to help jews during the war.

What more should he jhave done? for starters issued the encyclical drafted by Pius XI shortly before his death and perhaps been more outspoken in his condemnation of racism.

As for using the Swiss Guards with or without knives lets keep this sensible

 

[Pauldohert]

What more should he jhave done? for starters issued the encyclical drafted by Pius XI shortly before his death and perhaps been more outspoken in his condemnation of racism.

As for using the Swiss Guards with or without knives lets keep this sensible

Maybe he should have, what differance would it have made. Its interesting you know of this, but seem enlightened by a piece that seems to tell both sides of the story. IT would imply where you have you information from so far.

Tacit support is one thing (ie the implication is they did support, just didn't say so), failure to condemn another - many reasons why this should be, and condemn the acts of the Nazis pius XII did do.

The evidence in word and deed is contrary to the the idea of support or tacit support of the Nazi regime. And of course cases/incidents can be picked out were failure to help occured. Effective help failed to occur from all sources which allowed Nazis to murder millions.

 

[Rabbie]

Paul, it seems I am damned by you if I do and damned if I don't. I have agreed that the link made interesting reading and was enlightening so I feel I am prepared to consider and take a fresh view on this.

The idea of tacit support came from a biography of Hitler that I read a few years ago where it used that exact expression and phrase stuck in my mind.

I am afraid I differ from you in that I consider failure to condemn is tacit(ie silent) support. I would go so far as to say I believe the failure of the South African goverment to condemn Robert Mugabe comes into the same category. The present failure of the US goverment to condemn some Israeli actions is another case in point.

Once again I do not believe and have never believed or said that the Catholic Church were active supporters of Nazism. Is that clear enough for you. And of course there were many others that could and should have done more to oppose anti-semitism.

 

[Pauldohert]

The problem is you ackowledge the Catholic Church was not active supporters of the Nazis. But you state they were silent supporters of the Nazi Regime.


Two problems there
1) They were not silent.
2) They were not supporters.

 

[Rabbie]

The problem is you ackowledge the Catholic Church was not active supporters of the Nazis. But you state they were silent supporters of the Nazi Regime.


Two problems there
1) They were not silent.
2) They were not supporters.

Accepting the accuracy of your link I will withdraw the "tacit support" remark.

I still believe that the failure not to remove the historic condemnation of the jews for the murder of Christ contributed to people seeing the jews as being of lesser importance.

Now can you please withdraw your remarks about my being bigoted.

 

[Pauldohert]

Yes gladly, I withdraw the bigot remark cos it applied mainly to the idea of tacit support.

 

[Brianwarnock]

I think failure to condemn is tacit support, I would not have withdrawn the remark. The Catholic Hierarchy has on other occasions, eg Northern Ireland, The Falklands, also shown moral cowardice. Neither that link or anything you may say will convince me otherwise.
But this thread is not about a religion but about the belief or otherwise in a supernatural being, a God.

Brian

 

[Rich]

Alisa said Irag had no relationship to 9/11. How does she know that?

.

Despite the rantings of Bush Bliar and their cohorts, there's not a shred of evidence relating IRAQ to terrorism in the US

 

[Pauldohert]

Neither that link or anything you may say will convince me otherwise.

Then I won't bother you with the facts, since you state you will not be convinced by them. Glad you acknowledged this beforehand!


OK the catholic church isn't perfect, it crosses many borders, and existed through many periods of history. Its not surprising you can pick out certain bits and ignore others and come to any view you like.

Why you feel the need to is your problem, not mine. I have an objective view.