What's happened to the NHS??? (1 Viewer)

[KenHigg]

Nearly all european countries do have a tax funded welfare system to provide for these basic needs . We call it civilisation.

Now you're just grasping at snide one-liners...

 

[Rich]

Now you're just grasping at snide one-liners...

And you're trying to defend the greedy selfish capitalistic system of the US

 

[chergh]

Anyway denying basic needs such as medical treatment, housing and food, i.e. what social care provides the disabled and unemployed, is tantamount to eugenics in my book.

 

[KenHigg]

Sorry but inviting someone into your house for a meal and a wash is not a metaphor for providing basic needs.

When you consider that regardless of whether you pay the tax to feed somebody or you feed them yourself is not much different in my opinion, sounds like a pretty good metaphor to me.

Also I pointed out that my taxes do help provide housing and food for the unemployed and disabled.

I think you and Rab keep attempting to skew my position. I would be in favor of a NHS like system here in the states if we could mitigate the impact of people that don't want to make a contribution if they are physically able. Like lazy bums and illegals. I have no problem helping people down on their luck or disabled, etc.

 

[KenHigg]

And you're trying to defend the greedy selfish capitalistic system of the US

Sorry, I can't keep up with three of you guys

(Besides, if it weren't for capitalism, I doubt you'd have this internet to kill time on )

 

[chergh]

I would be in favor of a NHS like system here in the states if we could mitigate the impact of people that don't want to make a contribution if they are physically able. Like lazy bums and illegals. I have no problem helping people down on their luck or disabled, etc.

Who decides who is a lazy bum? what about people who can't work but also wouldn't if they could? What about those who appear to be lazy bums but the root cause of their issue is an undiagnosed illness? What about those who don't want to work because they have faced bullying and discrimination in the past?

Universal care is the only way to make sure no one gets missed or wrongly denied care. I'd much rather a thousand bums also get the benefits rather than 1 deserving person being wrongly denied.

 

[Rabbie]

Now you're just grasping at snide one-liners...

No, Ken, I wasn't being snide. The welfare state in Europe is regarded as a sign of civilisation. I understand your misgivings about helping the workshy but why should their children suffer. And besides in the present economic climate many people who want to work are being made redundant. Their savings will be quickly eaten up without state aid. There's not much point in having private insurance if the insurance company goes bankrupt. History has shown us what happens to societies when the prosperous few ignore the downtrodden poor. People turn to violence if that is the only way to feed their families and who can blame them.

 

[KenHigg]

Who decides who is a lazy bum? what about people who can't work but also wouldn't if they could? What about those who appear to be lazy bums but the root cause of their issue is an undiagnosed illness? What about those who don't want to work because they have faced bullying and discrimination in the past?

Universal care is the only way to make sure no one gets missed or wrongly denied care. I'd much rather a thousand bums also get the benefits rather than 1 deserving person being wrongly denied.

Goods points, all of them. I agree with all of them. (With the exception of the bullying line).

And there are other aspects to consider. How do you make sure people like doctors and resource providers aren't overcharging the system? With the politicians running something that big you can bet there are crooks around...

 

[RCheesley]

I can't spend a single day without seeing posters and information about the NHS Fraud Investigation Department - it's doing bloody good work and catching out some absolutely astounding frauds that go on.

This will happen in any industry to be honest, but it does rely on people being vigilant and knowing where to report any suspicions.

The system most definitely works - my line manager submitted a travel claim for a small amount - something like £50 - and she got a fraud alert form sent to her line manager because she'd countersigned her own form!

 

[KenHigg]

No, Ken, I wasn't being snide.

"We call it civilisation." Sounded snide to me

 

[Rich]

(Besides, if it weren't for capitalism, I doubt you'd have this internet to kill time on )

Yes I will, after bailing out the banks, the government will offer free internet connection for those with no income

 

[Rich]

"We call it civilisation." Sounded snide to me

Sounds like a fact to me

 

[KenHigg]

Yes I will, after bailing out the banks, the government will offer free internet connection for those with no income

And after we bail the automakers we'll have socialized transportation

 

[Rich]

And after we bail the automakers we'll have socialized transportation

As long as they stop building gas guzzlers

 

[chergh]

And there are other aspects to consider. How do you make sure people like doctors and resource providers aren't overcharging the system? With the politicians running something that big you can bet there are crooks around...

Wherever there is a lot of money and bureaucracy there is fraud but it's not a huge issue.

If you want to see crooks look at the prices pharma companies charge insurance companies in the US for their drugs.

 

[KenHigg]

Sounds like a fact to me

Sounded to me like you wrote it

 

[KenHigg]

As the current 'whipping yank' I hate to bail on you guys but I have to get some real work done -

 

[Rabbie]

"We call it civilisation." Sounded snide to me

Sorry about that. As I said in the post you quoted from Civilised is the way that european politicians describe the welfare state.

 

[KenHigg]

Sorry about that. As I said in the post you quoted from Civilised is the way that european politicians describe the welfare state.

Cool Rab - Truce?

 

[Alc]

That's all reasonable I guess... I suppose I was just trying to stir up trouble again. Sorry -

No offence taken

How does US medical insurance work? Let's say you never got sick - hypothetically, you paid for 50 years, then died in a plane crash - would they give you your money back? I'm guessing not, but I'm prepared to learn differently. The money you pay is going to help fund the treatment of people who do get ill, correct? These people have also paid contributions to the insurance company.

The only difference I see is that in a system such as exists in the UK surplus contributions from one person may help people who can't afford to help themselves. In the US, surplus money either goes to help people who don't need help, as they're already looking after themselves, or it gets turned directly into profits for the insurance company.

Would you rather that money you're already spending go to the needy or to a large corporation?

Also, isn't a society judged partly by how well it treats it's weakest members? If the poor are allowed to become sick and die off purely because they are poor (for whatever reason), that doesn't make the parent society look too good. Yes, some people make no effort to help themselves, but I can't believe that's the reason in the majority of cases where people have no medical cover.

What gives the well-off people in a country the right to say that physically or mentally disabled people should be allowed to die because they're indistinguishable from the layabouts?

What if insurance premiums quadrupled or worse? Could you still afford to pay them? You've worked hard (presumably ) and contributed for years to something you'd then get no benefit from when you most needed it. Compared to people better off than yourself, and through no fault of your own, you'd then be 'poor' and unable to look after yourself. Should you be left to rot because those who can stil afford it think you should?